I officially declare myself a "Hillary Hater." She may have just killed our chances in the GE.

[Armstead]

I have never liked Sen. Clinton.

But I always put it into the "disagree with" and "dislike personally" category, while acknowledging her strengths. I didn't like the term "Hillary hater" because personally, I didn't hate her, and would have been quite content to see her build a strong Senate career.

But after the last couple of days, I have crossed the line. I hate her. If Hillary gets the nomination, I'll vote for her. But it will require 20 clothespins on both nostrils. And i'll still hate her.

It is quite possible that her latest Bash Barak Spree has mortally wounded the Democrats chances in November. And she DOESN'T CARE.

"If I'm not the Democratic Nominee I'm going to make sure no otehr Democrat can win either."

She could have left her response to Obama's remarks to a few taps and then moved on to selling herself. Or she could even have defended him -- because, although clumisly put, he was simply saying out loud what Democrats already know about the central dilemma of the political landscape. What's the Matter with Kansas.

But did Phony Hillary do the right thing? Noooooooooooo. She seized on it in her amoral "anything to win" way.

It was far beyond mere competition. It was 1) A Bald faced Lie and 2)Paving the way for a GOP victory in November.

She basically did McCain's job for him by helping to brand Obama as an elitist. She weakened Obama in the general Election if he is the nominee -- while at the same time ruining her own chances as a potential nominee by pissing off Obama supporters even further.

Perhaps diehard Democrats will support her, but she may well be pushing away all of the independent supporters of Obama.

Her self-centered, calculated opportunism and lies is unforgivable and inexcusable.

[crispini]

1. Not to mention the fact that it was probably her campaign that showed up

at that fundraiser and got the quote in the first place. :eyes:

That said, I don't hate her, I just want her to go away.

[napoleon_in_rags]

180. Yeah, because the Republicans would never do a thing like that...

..Oh wait, of course they would. That's what gets me about all this. EVERY public statement Obama makes is being carefully recorded by republican operatives for potential use in a GE matchup. You may not like the mud coming from another Dem candidate, that's fine. But the idea that this mud and more isn't going to come out in the GE is just wrong. If some public comment Obama made has ruined the Dems chances in the GE, than its not because Hillary made the attack, because all these attacks and more are coming when he gets the nomination.

[Ken Burch]

181. But you know perfectly well that there was nothing WRONG with what Obama said.

He said white people in small towns are bitter and in hard times hold to old prejudices as a comfort.

This wasn't an attack on those people and YOU AND HRC KNOW IT!

You know it was a lie to say it was an attack.

If HRC had dropped on after Super Tuesday, we could count on a landslide win. Doesn't it bother you at all that she's done everything she could since then to kill our chances?

[napoleon_in_rags]

184. What's killing us is the divisiveness *in general*

I just went to Google news, and this is the top story:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-04-13-clinton-reax_N.htm
And yes, its Clinton and yes, its bad. But its a two way street, with all the freaking out over snipergate and other contentless words-not-policy things. How many people died as a result of "snipergate" or Obama's "bitter" comments? NOBODY. Yet all the people are seeing are these attacks in the news, and they are being forced to take sides. The point of my post is that the enemy is the Republicans. A lot of people are dead as results of their policies...And if anybody thinks they are going to let ANYTHING Obama says that can be used against him slide, they are WRONG. We have deeply lost track of our priorities here.

[Razorblade01]

220. Napoleon, you're right on!

You can't lay all the blame on Hillary or her supporters..she has the right to run for President. The Obama supporters as well as Obama is as much to blame! The Obama supporter don't think there will be bitterness if Obama wins..but they have been slamming the Clintons and possibly ruined her career politically as well. They are still very much an important part of the Democratic party and most have turned their backs on them.

[eridani]

225. Not just Repubs, but Repub framing

Clinton is using Repub arguments, which would kill her own candidacy if she were the nominee just as they harm Obama. Not Obama never does this (see health care for instance), but he's so far gone outside the box and done reframing on quite a few occasions also.

[odelisk8]

245. what

you dont seem to understand is that when a REPUBLICAN attacks Obama it can always be chalked up to, "that's what they do, it's part of the game." when a fellow Dem does it, then it lends weight to the charge it wouldn't otherwise have. not the hillary has any credibility....

[ecstatic]

186. Why would repug operatives play their hand so soon

I'm sure one was there, but it was Hillary's folks who released the clips to the media because she is currently fighting tooth and nail to take the nomination.

[napoleon_in_rags]

188. They wouldn't, that's my point.

The OP was saying this could hurt Obama in the General Election, but I'm saying whatever he says at this point that can be used against will be, by the republicans later on. So Hillary may be mudslinging, but its all coming out in the GE anyway. My only concern is that the fighting itself its going to kill us in the GE, if we all keep acting like fools and taking sides against one another.

[kenfrequed]

247. Perfect Pirouette

I applaud your skill at deflecting. After all if Clinton used this tactic than it was obviously within her rights and appropriate in the tactical sphere of her running for the nomination, while suggesting that this is obamas problem and the republicans will do it to him anyways.

Simutaneously you dispel any possibilities of the Republicans being behind this because acknowledging that possibility would reinforce the 'Republicans fear Obama' meme that seems to be supported by the fact that the right wing radio scum seem to be running a 'pack the primary' plan to try to put in what is percievably a more defeatable candidate.

Kudos

[napoleon_in_rags]

296. You want me to say republicans fear Obama?

Republicans fear Obama. They do. He may be our strongest player in the GE.

[kenfrequed]

297. Well then

A: I misread your post and apologize.

B: I used a few absurdly long nonsensical run-on sentences and also apologize.

[mortfrom]

280. And Lord Knows

we wouldn't want to run someone who would fight to win. Someone who really wants to win. That would be ... wrong. Not Democratic-like.

[wpelb]

198. Once you're a candidate, you're a target

In '04, Sen. Kerry did a terrible job of reacting to the Swift Boat Vets. Maybe they were telling the truth; maybe they weren't. Kerry's reaction didn't inspire a lot of confidence, and probably cost him the election. Had the Swift Boat Vets crap come up during the primaries, brought up either by the Republicans or by a primary opponent, Democrats would have had a chance to gauge his reaction before nominating him. Once he was nominated, however, people had no choice: vote for him or let Pres. Bush get re-elected. We all know what happened.

Once you're a candidate, everything you say, and everything your spouse or close friends say, gets dissected more thoroughly than a frog in biology lab. With the advent of the Internet, every blogger or pundit with a computer can dredge up just about anything--true, false, or (and this is all too often the case) somewhere in between. Even things said years ago can be brought up--in or out of context.

Make no mistake about it, Sen. Obama, Sen. Clinton, and even Sen. McCain are all living in fishbowls. Probably none of us who post here would like being subject to the same scrutiny. But the good thing about this extended primary season is that, if a candidate trips, slips and fumbles a lot, he (or she) can be "weeded out" before the convention, and a more articulate, less clumsy candidate can (we hope) be selected. Right now, when faced with challenges, Sen. Obama seems to be weathering the storms a bit better than Sen. Clinton. If he gets the nomination, which I expect he will, he will then have to face everything that the Republicans (and possibly even some former Clinton supporters) will throw at him. My guess is there will be a lot.

[Leopolds Ghost]

212. "Maybe the Swiftboat Vets were telling the truth, maybe not..." OK, thanks for that

Now I know the premium you place on the truth is all consuming. By all means let the race continue! At the end of the day, of course, only the truth will out, as it did for you in 2004.

[Apollo11]

228. You are wrong. It was an Obama supporter who leaked the quote.

From The Guardian, April 14th:

The comments came to light as a result of the Huffington Post's groundbreaking experiment in citizen journalism, Off The Bus. The website runs a network of about 1,800 unpaid researchers, interviewers and writers.

One of those writers, Mayhill Fowler, broke the story, despite being a paid-up supporter of Obama. She attended a fundraising event in San Francisco on April 6 and recorded Obama's speech.

Fowler sat on the material for days, conflicted about what to do with it. She only published the comments last Friday.

"She had some real reservations about the story as an Obama supporter," Amanda Michel, the director of Off The Bus, told the Guardian. "But she thought as a citizen journalist she had a duty to report the event, despite her support for Barack Obama."

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/14/barackobama.uselections2008

[Bensthename]

2. I'm right there with you brother. She is out to kill the dems chances this year. It's disgusting.

[rambler_american]

214. If Obama wins the nomination

can Hillary join the Lieberman party? She'd fit right in.

[PM7nj]

3. I agree.

I have had it with her.

[enough]

4. Strange, I just got there this morning.

I'm actually wondering if I can vote for her in the GE if she's the nominee (even given the importance of Supreme Court appointments).

I started out feeling great that we had two good candidates, then gradually was convinced by Obama. I truly don't like having to hate Hillary now, but I do.

[YDogg]

5. It's all about her. Period.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

205. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

241. It's all about BOTH of them. Period. And some of us fell for it, AGAIN!

:argh: :banghead:

[blm]

6. Clintons have been 'helping' BushInc for decades - more of us are just realizing it

because we are seeing it more OPENLY.

It took Bill's book and the 2004 sabotage of that election to wake me up more fully. A few DUers woke up LONG BEFORE then and warned us, and I only half-believed them at the time. I gave Clintons every benefit till Bill's book assured me they were far more friendly to the fascist agenda and BushInc than any of us could have known.

[LukeSkywalker]

193. The Clinton's are compromised....

by Mena Arkansas.... and the Iran/Contra crap that was run out of Arkansas while Bill was governor. That IMHO is why they are acting a bit loopy lately... sounding like Republicans who are always up to their eyeballs in this type of crap. That is why Hillary sounds like a Republican and why they both have the stink of desperation about them. I like Bill Clinton and used to like Hillary Clinton. I believe they have tried to do good... the problem is that I believe they have gotten themselves compromised by their connection to the Mena Arkansas CIA arms for drugs stuff. This involved Colombian cocaine... surprise, surprise... Colombia... where have I heard that recently? Oh yeah...

Does this sound like a Republican talking point? Yeah it does... but with out it... I can't for the life of me understand why the Clinton's are acting so odd... like Republicans.

Here's a video on the whole sordid Mena affair:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8681225708920427234

[judasdisney]

202. SHHHH...The Coincidence Theorists Will Hear You.

The Clintons innoculate themselves against Left Flank criticism via "silly attacks" on the Far Right.

Methinks there's much unexplained in Mena. The CIA airport was there without question.

Maybe Rove's Machinery and Cheney's CIA Sleeper Cells are still in control, blackmailing the Clintons to this day.

What else would explain their utterly destructive, divisive conduct?

[blm]

233. And why they HAD to work with BushInc to keep Kerry out of the WH. They all knew Kerry was an open

government lawmaker who had worked his ass off to get all the books opened on IranContra and BCCI's illegal operations.

[MichiganVote]

7. This primary race is the GE

[TahitiNut]

103. Not really. It's not just 'electability' ... it's also COATTAILS.

As the Clinton campaign is filling the McCain campaign's library of advertising video clips to smear Obama, they're also seriously damaging his influence in the campaigns to take over Senate and House seats.

[MichiganVote]

108. I don't think they need Clinton alone to smear Obama. Seen many Democrats

lean out of their political fortresses and defend Obama and his recent remarks lately? Nah, they are all going to play duck and cover unless they are getting out. For those who are getting out its time to stuff, stuff, stuff any bills with their pork.

The media had a lot of fun with the Kerry/Bush tableau of gaffe's for the last GE. They are doing it again. The media takes care of the media, the Clinton campaign takes care of Clinton and the Obama campaign will take care of the Obama campaign.

We all have a point of reference.

[juajen]

8. Get a grip! As if Obama hasn't taken advantage in every way

possible of a woman who mentored him in the Senate and helped him immensely at the beginning of his career. He is a back stabber and a liar. Remember, "I will not run for President until my sentate term is up."?

I can't stop you from hating Hillary, but I do believe you should expect her to protect and enhance her run for the presidency even if it is at the expense of her back stabbing fellow senator from Illinois.

[Bensthename]

10. He has not done 1/10th of the BS she has done to him.

[seabeyond]

18. bush would do so much shit and his supporters never made him own it. would say

kerry does it too.

bullshit

totally scale and situations. yet the repugs refuse to see and own. hence why we are where we are

[guruoo]

59. ROTFL!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[The Doctor.]

176. So....smiling with Rove automatically means you're just like him?

That could be a problem for everyone then. :eyes:

[Armstead]

11. No she is doing it at the expense of the Democratic Party and the USA

She should take a bigger look than her own long-held ambitions. But instead she has made a choice to sacrifice the Democratic chances if she doesn't somehow sleaze herself into the nomination.

[judasdisney]

203. She's doing this for the good of the country! She's a uniter. [sarcasm] n/t

[Connie_Corleone]

22. When did Obama bring up her lying about sniper fire in Bosnia?

There is sooo much that Obama could've hammered Hillary with throughout this entire primary season, but he didn't because he's not out to destroy her. He's not out to destroy the Democratic Party if he can't be the nominee.

NO ONE IS GUARANTEED THE NOMINATION!!!!!!!! You may think it was "Hillary's turn" to be the nominee and become president, but it's the voters who make that decision.

I am GLAD Obama entered the race. Now I know how much of a blood-sucking, piece of garbage, lying MONSTER Hillary really is!!!!!!!!!!

And Hillary wasn't Obama's mentor in the Senate. The Clinton fabrications are rubbing off on you.

[Bensthename]

30. Exactly, he could have ended her campaign with that if he wanted to.

[Tarheel_Dem]

43. Are you sure you want to go there?

"He is a back stabber and a liar". Surely you don't want to run with that. The media was hot on the case of Bill, who had just reignited the whole Tuzla mess, by telling an assorted collection of new lies, to cover up the old lies his wife told.

I'd say it was very fortuitous that the media happened to stumble on Obama's San Fran speech just in time. But don't celebrate just yet, they haven't forgotten about Hillbill's lies, they're just distracted momentarily. As for backstabbing, you really should sit down and have a talk with Al Gore and John Kerry about that, it's a subject they learned all too well, and sponsored by the Clintons.

[cali]

48. oh so now Obama is another who owes queen hilly everything.

She's really a piece of shit. She's not right wing or left wing. she's a power hungry freak who like her acolytes thinks she's owed the presidency.

[Hepburn]

49. Bullshit. n/t

[stillcool]

65. back-stabbing, liars...

December 10, 2007
Third Clinton Volunteer Knew Of Smear E-Mail
A third volunteer for Hillary Clinton's campaign was aware of a propaganda e-mail alleging that Barack Obama is a Muslim who plans on "destroying the U.S. from the inside out. "Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected presidential Candidacy," the email reads. "Please forward to everyone you know. The Muslims have said they Plan on destroying the U.S. from the inside out, what better way to start than at The highest level."

Two Clinton volunteers, Linda Olson and Judy Rose, have already been asked to resign from the campaign for their roles in forwarding the e-mail. The AP reported yesterday that Olson, a volunteer coordinator in Iowa County, sent a version of the e-mail to 11 people, including Ben Young, a regional field director for Chris Dodd's campaign. Young passed it on to the AP.
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/12/third_clinton_v.html

Kerrey Apologizes to Obama Over Remark
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=4031436
Kerrey's mention of Obama's middle name and his Muslim roots raised eyebrows because they are also used as part of a smear campaign on the Internet that falsely suggests Obama is a Muslim who wants to bring jihad to the United States.
Obama is a Christian.
The Clinton campaign has already fired two volunteer county coordinators in Iowa for forwarding hoax e-mails with the debunked claim. Last week, a national Clinton campaign co-chairman resigned for raising questions about whether Obama's teenage drug use could be used against him, so Kerrey's comments raised questions about whether the Clinton campaign might be using another high-profile surrogate to smear Obama.

Hillary: Sorry for Any Offense Campaign (Bill) Has Caused
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB65wJ6Rcfs

Bill Clinton Asks for a Second Chance
By Liz Halloran
Posted February 11, 2008
The morning after his wife, Hillary, was routed in three state contests by Sen. Barack Obama in their dead-heat battle for the Democratic nomination, former President Bill Clinton made his case for her before a packed Sunday service at one of the largest black churches in Washington, D.C.
But first he offered an apology of sorts for racially tinged comments he made about Obama and his candidacy that have triggered a backlash in the black community and among many other Democrats.

Clinton invoked his "worship of a God of second chances" in pronouncing himself glad to be at the Temple of Praise, which claims nearly 15,000 members. His invocation of second chances echoed comments he made early last week at black churches in California, where he campaigned for his wife before that state's
Super Tuesday primary, which she won.
http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/campaign-

2008/2008/02/11/bill-clinton-asks-for-a-second-chance.html

Source: Newsday
Posted on Sunday, December 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Barack Obama Accepts Apology From Hillary Clinton
Washington D.C. 12/15/2007 09:17 AM GMT (FINDITT)

Hillary Clinton went straight to Barack Obama with an apology following a staffer's remarks about any skeletons that may be lurking in Obama's closet, pointing out that she had accepted the staffer's resignation over the disparaging remarks. Obama accepted her at her word, according to his campaign staff, and is moving on without letting it interrupt his campaign plans.


Obama is currently leading the polls in Iowa and New Hampshire, the two early primary states often considered key to the process, according to numbers at usaelectionpolls.com, but on a national level Clinton still holds a huge lead. The most recently posted poll results show Obama with 31 percent of the
probable voters in New Hampshire backing him with 29 percent showing support for Clinton.
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=30629&cat=5

Clinton Camp Pushes O-Bomber Links: Ignores
Her Own Radical Ties
By: Justin Rood

ABC News - The Hillary Clinton campaign pushed to reporters today stories about Barack Obama and his ties to former members of a radical domestic terrorist group -- but did not note that as president, Clinton's husband pardoned more than a dozen convicted violent radicals, including a member of the same group
mentioned in the Obama stories."Wonder what the Republicans will do with this issue," mused Clinton spokesman Phil Singer in one e-mail to the media, containing a New York Sun article reporting a $200 contribution from William Ayers, a founding member of the 1970s group Weather Underground, to Obama in 2001.
In a separate e-mail, Singer forwarded an article from the Politico newspaper reporting on a 1995 event at a private home that brought Obama together with Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, another member of the radical group.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4330128&page=1

Bill Clinton To Apologize At LA Black Churches
Once again, Bill Clinton is ready to repent.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/02/bill-clinton-to-apologize_n_84573.html
On Sunday the former president is scheduled to visit black churches in South Central Los Angeles, where he's expected to offer a mea culpa to those who "dearly loved him" when he was their president, Rep. Diane Watson (D-Calif.) says. Watson, a member of the Congressional Black Caucus who has endorsed Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), tells us she'll usher the former president to more than half a dozen churches in
her district where she says he needs to "renew his relationship" with congregants who were turned off by his racially tinged comments in the days leading up to and following the South Carolina primary. (Such as when Clinton compared Sen. Barack Obama's landslide victory to Jesse Jackson's wins in 1984 and 1988.)

http://graphics.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/20080112_nevada_lawsuit.pdf
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/17/a-feisty-bill-

clinton-defends-nevada-lawsuit/
CLINTON ALLIES SUPPRESS THE VOTE IN NEVADA...
On Meet the Press on Sunday, Hillary Clinton said her campaign had nothing to do with a lawsuit--written about by Nation Editor Katrina vanden Heuvel--that threatens to prevent thousands of workers from voting in the Nevada caucus on Saturday.
Back in March, the Nevada Democratic Party agreed to set up caucus locations on the Vegas strip for low-income shift workers, many of them members of the state's influential Culinary Union, who commute long distances to work and wouldn't be able to get home in time to caucus. It was an uncontroversial idea until the Culinary Union endorsed Barack Obama and the Nevada State Education Association, whose top officials support Clinton, sued to shut down the caucus sites.
The Clinton camp played dumb until yesterday, when President Clinton came out in favor of the lawsuit.
Clinton's comments drew a heated response from D. Taylor, the head of Nevada's Culinary Union, on MSNBC's Hardball. "He is in support of disenfranchising thousands upon thousands of workers, not even just our members," Taylor said of Clinton. "The teachers union is just being used here. We understand that This is the Clinton campaign. They tried to disenfranchise students in Iowa. Now they're trying to
disenfranchise people here in Nevada, who are union members and people of color and women."
Rank-and-file members of Nevada's teachers union also come out against the lawsuit filed by their leadership. "We never thought our union and Senator Clinton would put politics ahead of what's right for our students, but that's exactly what they're doing," the letter stated. "As teachers, and proudmDemocrats, we hope they will drop this undemocratic lawsuit and help all Nevadans caucus, no matter which candidate they support."
The lawsuit's opponents make a persuasive point. Creating obstacles to voting is what the GOP does to Democrats, not what Democrats should be doing to other Democrats.

Clinton adviser steps down after drug use comments
Earlier Thursday, Clinton personally apologized to rival Obama for Shaheen's remarks.
Obama accepted her apology, according to David Axelrod, the top political strategist for the Obama campaign.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/13/clinton.obama/index.html

January 6, 2008, 5:18 pm
Edwards: No Conscience in Clinton Campaign
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/edwards-no-conscience-in-clinton-campaign/
By Julie Bosman
KEENE, N.H. – John Edwards angrily took on Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton at two news conferences in a row on Sunday, saying that her campaign “doesn’t seem to have a conscience.”

COMPTON, Calif. (AP) — Hillary Rodham Clinton and her campaign tried to mend ties to black voters Thursday when a key supporter apologized to her chief rival, Barack Obama, for comments that hinted at Obama's drug use as a teenager. The candidate herself, meanwhile, praised the Rev. Martin Luther King and promised to assist with the rebirth of this troubled, largely black city.

Bob Johnson, the founder of Black Entertainment Television, apologized for comments he made at a Clinton campaign rally in South Carolina on Sunday that hinted at Obama's use of drugs as a teenager.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-01-17-

johnson-apology_N.htm?csp=34

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.
----------
Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[cliffordu]

94. This needs to be it's own post.

[Danger Mouse]

66. Hillary knows all about backstabbing and lying...

she's an expert!

[Ino]

67. I believe she should protect & enhance the PARTY

even if it's at the expense of her own blind ambition.

[JackORoses]

79. her run for the Presidency was over weeks ago

at this point, it is her run to destroy Obama.

She will not be successful in her aims.
Barack Obama will be the next President, and Hillary Clinton will never, ever live in the White House again.

If this is what we have to go through to rid our Party of the Clintons, then so be it.
Good Riddance!

[cliffordu]

84. "back stabber and liar."

Would you like to qualify this statement or just let it lay there, reeking in heat of the midday sun?

[shellgame26]

223. one-liners, zingers and non-sequiturs

are all Hillary supporters have left. Don't expect them to back up any of their criticism with verifiable links.

[papau]

164. Obama has been the devil pretending to be otherwise - I agree with you

[The Doctor.]

174. You've finally managed to convince me you've become unhinged over this.

Unbelievable. There you are hurling all the ugly name calling you accuse Obama supporters of doing. The difference is you can't justify it.

[shellgame26]

224. case in point

[The Doctor.]

173. She's HANDING McCain ammunition... and you people are CONDONING it.

Get a grip yourself.

[donheld]

179. You live in a dream world don't you.

[emilyg]

183. Yep.

[guyanakoolaid]

200. You're right, Obama is a "Judas" for running against her at all...

Like Richardson. It was Hillary's turn! It's not fair! She put up with so much! She was promised! It's sexist to not let the woman have her turn! What's wrong with you misogynists?

[Evergreen Emerald]

9. And of course you wrote this same post when obama was sending

right-wing lies about universal health care, right.

Yeah. Whatever. Your selected outrage is getting tiresome. Hate her all you want. But unless you hate Obama too, you are being hypocritical.

[Armstead]

12. I always said I disagreed with Obama and Clinton and Edwards on healthcare

I have always said that I believe all three candidates are copping out on healthcare. The only candidate who had a real plan to address the problem was Kucinich.

No inconsistency there.

As for the "right wing lies" from Obama, I believe that since none of them are going to go for the real solution, at least a voluntary plan is a better step than mandates.

[Evergreen Emerald]

17. So, despite the fact that Obama sent out a flyer using right-wing lies

to tank any chance we have at universal health care, you do not hate him.

I do not understand your double standard.

[Armstead]

24. I agree with what you call "right wing lies"

I live in Massachusetts. I have seen firsthand the impact that a half-assed "mandated" private care based system is causing to the very people who need help the most.

The ONLY form of forced coverage that makes sense is a truly universal single-payer plan run by the government. A version of Expanded Medicare for Everyone.

A plan that keeps insurance as a cash-cow private industry whila also FORCING people into that system is the worst of both worlds. It's a burden on the poor and working clas AND it's a poilitical loser.

The best alternative if there is to be a halfway "reform," is one that opens up more opportunities for affordable care WITHOUT forcing people into the clutches of the insurance companies.

[Jed Dilligan]

39. "Right wing lies" is the most expansive concept around here

I tend to ignore it when posted without links.

[Evergreen Emerald]

52. That certainly makes it easier to support your candidate: cover your ears, close your eyes and

scream "i can't hear you."

Sen. Obama Launches Inaccurate Attack Using New Republic:

Hillary has a plan to curb the foreclosure crisis by freezing rates on adjustable rate subprime loans. It was a policy also favored by Sen. Edwards. Barack Obama has no plan so he's chosen to go on the attack. From his event in Texas today:

She's proposed that we freeze the monthly rate on existing adjustable rate mortgages for at least five years. I disagree with that approach, although I'm sure it's well-intentioned, and here's why: it will reward people who made this problem worse. It will also reward people who are wealthy and don't need it. It won't just target the struggling home owners who need help the most. And on top of that, a blanket freeze as she's proposed will drive rates through the roof on people who are trying to get new mortgages to buy or refinance a home. Experts say the value of homes will fall even more, and even more families could face foreclosure. That's why one economic analyst called her plan "disastrous".

His argument is false, and based on a flawed report in the New Republic that assumes Hillary's plan applies to all adjustable rate mortgages and not just subprime adjustable rate mortgages. Subprime mortgages are overwhelmingly held by low-income individuals. Laura Tyson, professor of economics at the Hass School of Business at the University of California, Berkeley explained:

The rate freeze would give the housing market time to stabilize and would give mortgage servicers an opportunity to restructure unworkable mortgages and avoid unnecessary and costly foreclosures that harm both homeowners and investors. The rate freeze is critical because the 30 to 40 percent escalation in monthly payments is a major driver of defaults and ultimately foreclosures in the subprime mortgage market. Senator Clinton limits the proposed moratorium and rate freeze to subprime mortgages because the foreclosure crisis is disproportionately a subprime crisis. Subprime loans comprise less than 15 percent of all mortgages but more than 50 percent of foreclosures.

Thaler and Woodward are simply wrong when they describe the Senator's proposed rate freeze as applying to all adjustable rate mortgages and not just subprime ones.
When corporations run into trouble meeting their obligations, creditors often arrange a “workout” that restructures the financial obligation by setting new payment terms, etc. Creditors don’t do this under force of law. They do it voluntarily because it keeps their clients in business and it limits their own losses. Senator Clinton is proposing that banks do for families what they already do for big business.

Jon Corzine, who in addition to being a governor is the former head of Goldman Sachs, has said the following about Senator Clinton’s plan: “I believe that her call for a 90-day moratorium on subprime foreclosures, a 5-year freeze in rates on subprime loans, and a $30 billion fund to help states fight foreclosures, is the right approach for tackling the mortgage crisis."
Sen. Obama is positioning himself to the right of President Bush. The Bush administration recently reached an agreement with the mortgage industry to implement a limited foreclosure moratorium and a loan modification program that could result in rate freezes for at-risk borrowers. In December, the administration announced another plan that also called for a rate freeze for qualified at-risk homeowners. While this plan is not sufficient, it goes farther than Sen. Obama.
Sen. Obama stands by healthcare mailer that falsely attacks Hillary
2/26/2008 9:22:56 PM


And the healthcare flyer using Right-wing talking ponts:

Sen. Obama stood by an Ohio campaign mailer that mimicked Harry and Louise ads that the health care industry used to scare people into opposing universal health care. The ad claims "Hillary's health care plan forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can't afford it."
Here are the facts:

Sen. Obama fails to mention Hillary's plan cuts costs just as aggressively as Sen. Obama, if not more so.

Hillary's plan contains more generous subsidies than the Obama plan. Noted health expert Ken Thorpe of Emory University concluded that under the Hillary plan, everyone will be able to afford coverage.
The Obama plan leaves 15 million people out, which drives up costs because everyone else ends up subsidizing their emergency care.

Paul Krugman called the mailer "ugly" and "destructive."


So, I know many of you think that Obama is perfect and Clinton is the devil. But the facts are available for all to see. Be resonable.

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=6224

[Armstead]

60. The real "right wing lie" is that subsidized care is the problem

When you look at all of the factors that are driving up healthcare costs and reducing access, the cost of subsidized care for the uninsured is not the major problem. It's a problem, but not the real problem.

It's the profit motive, and the structural problems built into the Business of insurance and the Business or Corporate Health Care.

The cost of caring for the poor is one of the strawmen that the right wing protectors of the for-profit system constantly use.

Obama would help to reduce the problem that does exist of subsidized care by allowing and encouraging more people to acquire insurance.

[Jed Dilligan]

69. Thanks for the mortgage stuff

I'm a mere renter, still trying to grasp all the complexities of that issue.

As for the "right-wingness" of the flyer's argument, I can't say because I agree with it. Hillary's plan if enacted as she herself has described will screw me royally. It's the main reason I became partisan this season; no one I really liked made it to the finals.

I don't see things as you say--"Obama is perfect and Clinton is the devil"--and my initial remark applies to both sides throwing around "right wing lies." You would communicate better if you didn't bring your anger at some posters to every discussion you have.

[Evergreen Emerald]

You are right

I am angry. But, if you look at the constant negative unfair distortions it is so hard not to be angry.

[Nedsdag]

141. "Unfair distortions?"

Evergreen Emerald, it must be tough on your hearing with your head buried in the sand.



Am I right?

[Evergreen Emerald]

152. The facts are there, if you wanted to see them.

I suggest you get your head out of Obama's ass--that would help you see the reality of what is going on.

[ekwhite]

190. Goldman Sachs?

From Wikipedia:

On August 28, 2007, a former Goldman Sachs associate accused of being the mastermind behind an insider trading scheme, one that pocketed $6.7 million, pleaded guilty in Federal District Court in Manhattan.

The FBI reported on July 6, 2007, that they were investigating letters sent to newspapers nationwide that said "Goldman Sachs. Hundreds will die. We are inside. You cannot stop us." The letters were post-marked in late June from Queens, New York and were handwritten in red ink on loose leaf paper, signed by "A.Q.U.S.A.".<27> A subsequent letter to New York Daily News claimed that the original threat was a hoax "conceived by three misguided teenagers", and pleaded for the investigation to be halted.<28>

In 2005, the firm advised both the New York Stock Exchange and Archipelago, which owns an electronic trading platform, in merger talks. Controversy surrounded the deal as John Thain, who heads the New York Stock Exchange, was a former Goldman Sachs Executive.<29>

Also in 2005, Goldman Sachs received criticism from civic groups and New York City politicians when they received approximately $1.6 billion in taxpayer subsidies (mostly through Liberty Bonds) from New York City and state taxpayers to finance the Firm's new headquarters near the World Financial Center in Lower Manhattan in return for a commitment to keep at least 9000 employees and a major trading operation in Manhattan. It also comes with the expectation of the creation of at least 4000 new jobs by 2019.<30>

In 1986, David Brown was convicted of passing inside information to Ivan Boesky on a takeover deal.<31> Robert Freeman, who was a senior Partner, the Head of Risk Arbitrage, and a protégé of Robert Rubin, was also convicted of insider trading, with his own account and with the firm's.<32>

In 2006, as a result of an SEC investigation, Eugene Plotkin, a former research analyst in the Fixed Income division of Goldman Sachs, and David Pajcin, a former employee of Goldman Sachs, were prosecuted for insider trading. The prosecution began after regulators noticed unusually high trading volume before a merger announcement and discovered that a retired seamstress in Croatia, the aunt of Pajcin, had made more than $2 million. Plotkin and Pajcin traded in at least 25 stocks within one year based on inside information obtained through these schemes. Plotkin was sentenced to 57 months in prison and was also ordered to pay a $10,000 fine and to forfeit up to $6.7 million, the amount of the scam's illegal profits. Pajcin, who cooperated with the government, is expected to be sentenced soon.<33><34>

Exit Policy

Goldman Sachs has been known to lay off 5% of its worst-performing staff each year, which is established business practice amongst Consultancy and Investment banking

That Goldman Sachs?

[springhill]

276. shirts and skins, that's how............

From the Daily Howler, and how true it is..............

When you’re a shirt, you’re a shirt all the way, if we may quote the old musical.

And when you’re a shirt, only skins commit fouls! We fellows have seen how it works on the court—but it becomes a lot more harmful when it’s exported to political battles. In this campaign, major players on various sides have said dumb things—or behaved dishonestly. Race cards have been—or may have been—played on various sides. And no, it isn’t easy to know when these cards are being deliberately dealt. Although, of course, it always feels good to pretend we do know—to rant histrionically.

Some of you will now compose e-mails, describing the outrageous offenses committed against your virtuous side. You might find yourself talking about things which offended you; you might not find yourself wondering about the things which may have offended someone else. You may even find yourself explaining somebody’s motives—where motive may be hard to detect. You may find yourself in the grip of a high level of certainty.

In short, you may find yourself ripping the shirts, railing about what the vile skins have done. You may be “emotional” too! When you’re a shirt, you’re a shirt all the way! We’ll suggest that’s how Rove wins elections.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh031308.html

[BornBlue]

285. What about Hillary's flyer?

Stating Obama's plan will exclude 15 million of people. That was a flat out lie, since his plan is voluntary, the only people who are left out are those that choose to be.

I don't understand your double standard.

[JimGinPA]

15. The "right-wing lies about universal health care" Were Her Own Words...

I hope she's forced out of the senate now too. She's a despicable person and no democrat.

[Hepburn]

51. I can guarantee that whatever Dem runs against in NY for her seat....

...they will get a sizable donantion from me.

Fuck Hillary and her lying, Dem-hating bullshit. I have more than had it with her.

:grr:

[Evergreen Emerald]

54. No. You are wrong.

You may want to look into the healthcare issues before you vote. You are misinformed.

[movonne]

74. I don't know health care ...who has what and what is best....universal would

be the best...but I do know that hillary is a big fat liar and I'm not sure what you will get with her...

[Evergreen Emerald]

95. And of course you know that because of that unbiased media

who has been so fair in their coverage. Hospital story is one--how you can give them any credibility is beyond me.

[mythyc]

194. are you really swallowing the scam job that Hillary's plan is "universal" health care?

i want some of what you're smoking.

[merh]

20. What RW lies about universal health care?

Tell me about those lies?

Hillary admitted that her plan calls for the mandatory participation and that the regulations would include garnishing wages, thus her plan doesn't help the little guys as she proclaims, it hurts them.

So tell me of the lies.

[Evergreen Emerald]

37. Here are two instances (of many) where Obama used right-wing lies

to attack Clinton:

Sen. Obama Launches Inaccurate Attack Using New Republic:

Hillary has a plan to curb the foreclosure crisis by freezing rates on adjustable rate subprime loans. It was a policy also favored by Sen. Edwards. Barack Obama has no plan so he's chosen to go on the attack. From his event in Texas today:

She's proposed that we freeze the monthly rate on existing adjustable rate mortgages for at least five years. I disagree with that approach, although I'm sure it's well-intentioned, and here's why: it will reward people who made this problem worse. It will also reward people who are wealthy and don't need it. It won't just target the struggling home owners who need help the most. And on top of that, a blanket freeze as she's proposed will drive rates through the roof on people who are trying to get new mortgages to buy or refinance a home. Experts say the value of homes will fall even more, and even more families could face foreclosure. That's why one economic analyst called her plan "disastrous".

His argument is false, and based on a flawed report in the New Republic that assumes Hillary's plan applies to all adjustable rate mortgages and not just subprime adjustable rate mortgages. Subprime mortgages are overwhelmingly held by low-income individuals. Laura Tyson, professor of economics at the Hass School of Business at the University of California, Berkeley explained:

The rate freeze would give the housing market time to stabilize and would give mortgage servicers an opportunity to restructure unworkable mortgages and avoid unnecessary and costly foreclosures that harm both homeowners and investors. The rate freeze is critical because the 30 to 40 percent escalation in monthly payments is a major driver of defaults and ultimately foreclosures in the subprime mortgage market. Senator Clinton limits the proposed moratorium and rate freeze to subprime mortgages because the foreclosure crisis is disproportionately a subprime crisis. Subprime loans comprise less than 15 percent of all mortgages but more than 50 percent of foreclosures.

Thaler and Woodward are simply wrong when they describe the Senator's proposed rate freeze as applying to all adjustable rate mortgages and not just subprime ones.
When corporations run into trouble meeting their obligations, creditors often arrange a “workout” that restructures the financial obligation by setting new payment terms, etc. Creditors don’t do this under force of law. They do it voluntarily because it keeps their clients in business and it limits their own losses. Senator Clinton is proposing that banks do for families what they already do for big business.

Jon Corzine, who in addition to being a governor is the former head of Goldman Sachs, has said the following about Senator Clinton’s plan: “I believe that her call for a 90-day moratorium on subprime foreclosures, a 5-year freeze in rates on subprime loans, and a $30 billion fund to help states fight foreclosures, is the right approach for tackling the mortgage crisis."
Sen. Obama is positioning himself to the right of President Bush. The Bush administration recently reached an agreement with the mortgage industry to implement a limited foreclosure moratorium and a loan modification program that could result in rate freezes for at-risk borrowers. In December, the administration announced another plan that also called for a rate freeze for qualified at-risk homeowners. While this plan is not sufficient, it goes farther than Sen. Obama.
Sen. Obama stands by healthcare mailer that falsely attacks Hillary
2/26/2008 9:22:56 PM


And the healthcare flyer using Right-wing talking ponts:

Sen. Obama stood by an Ohio campaign mailer that mimicked Harry and Louise ads that the health care industry used to scare people into opposing universal health care. The ad claims "Hillary's health care plan forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can't afford it."
Here are the facts:

Sen. Obama fails to mention Hillary's plan cuts costs just as aggressively as Sen. Obama, if not more so.

Hillary's plan contains more generous subsidies than the Obama plan. Noted health expert Ken Thorpe of Emory University concluded that under the Hillary plan, everyone will be able to afford coverage.
The Obama plan leaves 15 million people out, which drives up costs because everyone else ends up subsidizing their emergency care.

Paul Krugman called the mailer "ugly" and "destructive."


So, I know many of you think that Obama is perfect and Clinton is the devil. But the facts are available for all to see. Be resonable.

[merh]

64. Links please -

And relative to health care, his mailer was correct, her plan does provide "Hillary's health care plan forces everyone to buy insurance, even if you can't afford it."

Would you like to hear her admit to this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e18Qa56tMBU

[Evergreen Emerald]

68. More distortions. The difference is that the vouchers and lowercosts will

be affordable and there are subsides for those who cannot afford it.

The WHOLE of the plan is conviently left out of Obama's flyer, using the right wing talking points to scare people.

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=6224

[merh]

71. It is not using right wing talking points - it is pointing out the basic

flaw with her plan. I don't care what vouchers you set up, if a plan calls for punishment because you cannot afford it, then your plan is flawed. How does it help those most in need of health care if the plan subjects them to garnishment if they can't afford it?

Funny thing about you hillary supporters, anything negative about real issues is a RW talking point but none of you have hesitated to run off at the mouth against Obama for the Wright association or even his comments about bitterness.

Your double standards must make it hard for you to know what is truly important.

[Evergreen Emerald]

77. It is using right-wing talking points to scare people away from

any attempt at stemming the costs. It is the SAME argument the republicans made last time. That is why it is called a right-wing talking point "funny thing."

The "flaws" in her plan are not what the republicans and Obama want you to think. The garnishment is not for people who cannot afford it. It is for people who refuse to buy it. Those who cannot afford it are taken care of. REad the damn thing before you go mimicking the right-wing talking points (created by the right wing).

Funny thing.

[cliffordu]

WHICH points are copyrighted by the right wing, Numbnuts?

[Evergreen Emerald]

101. Well. There you go. So, when Obama does it--it is just an argument

that both sides are making, not a right-wing talking point necessarily.

But when Clinton does it--it is something to HATE her for. Check the thread title, dude.

[cliffordu]

117. You STILL haven't told us which right wing talking points he's using,

I want YOU to tell ME which right wing talking points he's using!

You said on MULTIPLE occasions he is using right wing tactics:

Now name them.

[Evergreen Emerald]

149. Yes. I did. You choose not to read it, I can't help you.

[mtnsnake]

258. Yes she did. Stop lying and whining and open your eyes for a change.

[merh]

110. It is not talking points when it is the truth

The concept of universal health care is wonderful, is very needed, but you do not penalize or further harm those in the most need of the plan when implementing the plan.

The truth is, her plan would provide for garnishing wages which is exactly what the flyer said.

RW talking points is calling someone an elitist or *gasp* a liberal, when their finances are not anywhere near your own, when their policies are not that much different than what you have supported or proposed.

You need to try to understand the words you use, that may help you better understand the issues.

[Evergreen Emerald]

116. what a condescending post by one who needs to look in the mirror

before showing her ignorance.

The flyer is a lie. But, apparently right-wing lies are ok as long as Obama is using them. But if Clinton were to use the same argument that a republican uses--she should be hated for it?

The logic is defying. Twisted like pretzels to support Obama.

[merh]

121. The flyer isn't a lie. You can repeat it as often as you like, that

will not change the facts. Hillary's plan does subject those most in need with economic harm, the statement is true and as you can see from posts made by others, it is Hillary's supporters like you that have used hate filled smears for which they have had to apologize, to deflect from the truth.

They flyer is not a lie, watch the video, your candidate admits to the perils of her plan. If you have ever had your wages garnished while you are trying to make ends meet and feed your family, then you should understand how harmful her plan can be, if you have never been subject to garnishment then consider yourself blessed. It is you and hillary that appear to be the elitist, out of touch with the common folks, out of touch with those who are in the need of the plans the most.

Neither plan is perfect. The flyer was stating a truth about her plan, was on subject and was not a "RW talking point".

[Evergreen Emerald]

151. So, I guess that is the problem with the Obama supporters

with the facts before their eyes, they cannot get over their hatred enough to even consider that Obama used the same right-wing tactic that the republicans used last time we tried to get better health care.

It is a RW talking point, because the right-wing has been using that talking point for decades to keep us from getting health care. I know you want to ignore that reality. But it is the truth.

[merh]

154. Project much?

I have presented the facts to you.

I have given you Senator Clinton's own words admitting to the shortcoming and yet you deny that they exist and continue to claim the flyers contained lies.

It is you that has trouble with reality and with analyzing the facts.

It is not a rightwing talking point if it is a true issue relative to the policies and plans of the dem candidates. Pointing out the differences and the short falls are legitimate issues in the campaign. Calling them lies does not make them lies, categorizing them as "RW talking points" does not make them "RW talking points".

[papau]

165. Well said - but do not expect to be heard on DU - facts can't be allowed to interfer w/ Obama love

[brindis_desala]

76. I agree with you that Obama's health care plan is weak

However I think it is a better dialogue starter. The Clinton/Romney plan has serious weaknesses that Congress will not want to risk political capital on (IMHO).

As for the mortgage crisis, Obama's solution is NOT to the "right of Bush" that's dare I say "typical" spin. I'm not sure the sky would fall under Hillary's plan as many suggest, but the reviews are more with Obama.

The Economist magazine termed Clinton’s plan “deeply unsound” in its March 1-7 issue and said it “would surely result in higher rates and scarcer credit for future borrowers.” Even Washington Post business columnist David Ignatius called the moratorium “one of the truly bad ideas of our time” in a piece on February 21.


In contrast, Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) has said he wants to offer $10 billion in bonds to homeowners and give them a tax credit.

“This seems to be the only area where Obama is not as far to the left as Hillary,” said Bowyer. “The downsides are still there, though: bailing out people for high-risk behavior encourages them to do it again – economists refer to this as ‘moral hazard.’ Also, of course, this is tax money taken from productive uses in the private sector to buy votes from people who don’t like to pay their debts. So, not a very good idea, but nothing like the disruption to capital market transactions under the Hillary plan.”
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2008/20080312170222.aspx

The funny thing is no one ever seems to want to punish the investment banks for their "high-risk behavior. Anyway cheers. :toast: I think Hillary has a great deal of savvy to offer both discussions.

[stillcool]

107. Here's some more "facts"..

about that "mailer outrage"...

Clinton Surrogate Compares Obama Ad to Nazi March
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20080201/cm_thenation/45278988_1
Fri Feb 1, 2:23 PM ET
The Nation -- On a media conference call organized by the Hillary Clinton campaign today, Clinton surrogate Len Nichols compared an Obama health care ad to Nazis.



Accusing political opponents of Nazism is an outrageous smear. Raising the specter of a Nazi march in response to a health care mailer that evokes the insurance industry is so absurd, it would be hard to take the attack seriously, were it not launched from a high profile national campaign conference call in this crucial stretch of the presidential race. And political observers know, of course, that the Clinton Campaign regularly arranges opportunities for surrogates to launch these kind of smears, which are later followed up with apologies. (See: Bob Johnson, Bill Shaheen, Bob Kerrey, and Francine Torge, to name the most recent offenders.) For his part, Nichols did not immediately return a call requesting further comment.
-------------------------
Len Nichols, Director of New America's Health Policy Program, stated, "For nearly 17 years I have worked tirelessly to reform our nation's struggling health system. Today my passion overwhelmed me. I chose an analogy that was wholly inappropriate. I am deeply sorry for any offense that my unfortunate comments may have caused.

[Evergreen Emerald]

113. So, the Facts of the flyer show that it was a lie

But the jist of the article is that even tho they were lies, they should not be equated with Hitler?

I agree that it was certainly an over reaction. But I can certainaly attest to the frustration of Clinton supporters when the media gives Obama a leg up:

For example: the story is not even addressing the distorions and lies that Obama is spewing in this flyer: but instead covers the reaction to it.

Odd.

[stillcool]

128. Wrong....

I just posted the "Apologies" that were necessitated by the Clinton Campaigns garbage mouths in reaction to this flier. It was bogus..as is all the "outrage" that comes from the Clinton Campaign. SOP. The facts of the Heath flier were never in question. The only thing 'mis-leading' about it, was that it did not spell out the Clinton Health Care policy chapter and verse. But why would it?

[stillcool]

136. maybe you should take a look...

at the mailer again, and tell me what 'you' find so offensive?
http://www.politico.com/pdf/PPM44_080130_nd_obama_hrc_healthcare_plan_forces_health_insurance2.pdf

[cliffordu]

85. Tell us all about the right wing lies, please, with links

[Colobo]

13. Hillary knows she has no chance, and she is now trying to kneecap him.

[EFerrari]

14. This is how we'll remember The Clinton School of Public Service.

It's too bad.

[Bensthename]

16. She will lose the nomination and this is how she will be remembered = an asshole

[curiousdemo]

261. It's my nomination!....It's my nomination!!! It's my nomination.....

Poor Hillary....she reminds me of the little girl on "Leave it to Beaver'. "I know the answers Mrs. Landers. Beaver doesn't know the answers Mrs. Landers" Once she tell Mrs. Landers the answers, who didn't ask her for it, she stick her tongue out at Beaver" A pure smart ass. This is Hillary in a nutshell. A lying loser. She got that lying from Slick Willie. Hillary, do everyone a favor and go away..:hi:

[Zodiak]

19. This is not about Barack Obama

This is about YOU, fellow DUers.

If Barack wins, the people of the United States will once again be allowed into our political system after being led by the nose for decades. The DLC and the Republican party will do ANYTHING to make sure that does not happen.

People get confused when they see a Democrat doing this to our own because they still buy the false dichotomy of Republican/Democrat. These labels have very little meaning these days. The REAL divide is populism versus corporatism.

The fervor to take Barack Obama down over the tiniest, pettiest bullshit is fueled by the elites that have had a free hand in our government for too long. When they attack Barack, they are attacking the power of the people of the United States to have a say in the affairs of our government. What is doubly disgusting is that the angle they are taking now is that Barack is against the very people who he is holding the door open for. Attacked by elitists who have held the door closed for decades.

I will not vote for Clinton, ever. I made the commitment before this primary, and everything I have seen since the primary began has reinforced this notion. She and her DLC buddies are not worth our support...they will take over the Democratic party and make it work for the corporations, not the people (as it has for 20 years, now). There is no way I will attach my seal of approval to that.....no way would I betray my own with my vote. Her Supreme Court appointments, like all DLC policies, will be 80% designed to appease Republicans and 20% designed to further her own personal power. The American people do not even enter into the equation.

[flor de jasmim]

31. ABSOLUTELY! You should turn this into a separate post.

This is right on target, and it explains why the MSM reacts the way it does, why Hillary and McCain sound so much alike, and why the "powers that be" are running scared.

With 300 million people in this country, we need to find OUR VOICES and make them heard. We're on our way, but it's not won yet.

[Armstead]

41. I agree with most of that BUT we still need to vote Democrat

As vague as the differences are becoming between the GOP and the DLC phony Corporate Centrists like Clinton, there still are some important differences.

So even if Hillary DeFarge is the nominee, she'd still be a damn site better than McCain and the crew he would bring in.

[Zodiak]

58. I think it will be the same crew.

Does it matter whether we have PNACers from Democratic party versus the Republican one?

I doubt it.

Either way, they are not working for us...they are actively working against us. And people are dying out here. The neglect and the arrogance is so think one can cut it with a knife.

I am no longer playing that game. No DLCer will EVER get my vote. I'd rather lose and have a viable opposition party than win and be shut out of our government for another 20 years. That's what happened when we allowed the DLC to run the show the last time.

If we allow the DLC in, DUers will be forced to make excuses for RW crap coming out of a Democratic government as we were forced to do over the last ten years. The Democratic party will inspire no one, and we will have 20 more years of top-down rule (mostly Republicans) that squashes the lives of average Americans.

That is what the DLC does...their history is a blueprint of their strategy. If the Republicans win, Republicans rule...if the Democrats win with a DLCer, Republicans rule. Use our illustrious Congressional record for the last two years and see if my hypothesized scenario fits.

[Lou Queb]

88. That's interesting...It seems to me that many would rather win a GE than

lose but have a ''real democratic'' opposition. Al From, the DLC founder, said after the 1984 debacle, that he wondered how to make the democratic party win again, that meant compromising to the right.

[Zodiak]

129. I believe we have blown far more opportunities...

because we allow the same tired bunch of turncoats in office than our lack of access to the mantles of power.

The fact that the Republicans can press every advantage whether they have the majority or not is testament to how many missed opportunities there are on our side. Alito, Roberts, the Iraq war, the bankruptcy bill, the Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act...all passed with DLC member support and very little opposition.

When we are given the excuse from progressive politicians that "the votes aren't there"...they are talking about DLCers and their ilk as much as they are the Republicans.

[Lou Queb]

81. But how do Hillary-backer democrats respond to that ? Is it all black and

white ? I would agree with you but I'd like to read the take of a HRC supporter on this.

[Zodiak]

118. No, it is not black and white

The DLC has a clever little scheme that they enact.....they trade off which members will vote against the party as a whole, and it is always JUST ENOUGH so the Republicans get their way. So when you look at the voting records, none of the DLC members look like RW Republicans (except perhaps Landrieu, the Nelsons, and Salazar), but the overall effect of their organization is exactly as I outlined.

Hillary is one of the least offenders amongst the DLC (she is quite liberal on issues that have nothing to do with corporate power)...they had to build her "liberal" bona fides in order to run her as a legitimate Democrat. However, her strategy is classic DLC, and the antithesis of "people-powered" government.

I've been studying the actions of these organizations for years, and I am convinced that this pattern of cutting the people off at the knees is their main purpose. Everything they do as an organization seems to be in service of this strategy.

[cascadiance]

215. Finally got around to watching "Our Brand is Crisis" DVD on Saturday...

... and the Carville bunch that was trying to "help" the Bolivia elections were doing the same frickin' thing there! They decryed the "grass roots" candidates there, and instead supported the older "suit" guy, that was obviously into the kind of diplomacy that Jack Perkins complains about in his book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman". They were able to do a typical "hit man" campaign to go after the other guy similar to themselves in terms of the style of candidates they run, but couldn't shut down Evo Morales who ultimately came out in power at the end as the true grass roots candidate in the end.



Now Morales is one more Chavez that Korporatist, Inc. needs to find a way to get rid of.

Hopefully Obama can really at some point be the way the people take back America too... Keeping my fingers crossed.

[TellTheTruth82]

264. Well said

There is very little practical difference between the two parties (social issues will always exist and will mostly be split fairly evenly). The argument now is populism versus corporations. The problem is they probably both need to exist, so how do you make them work together? You can't realistically tax big business because they merely pass the cost on to consumers (witness the price of gas, and other other examples ad nauseam). You can't get rid of big business, because you do need businesses for jobs and whatnot. So how do you find a balance. Lacking any real method, you are left with trial and error. This method normally means someone gets hurt, and you can guess who suffers the most....

[Armstead]

279. No there are methods...It's called regulation

Anti-trust laws, keeping necessary public services public (or at least under very strong regulatory controls), consumer protection laws and , yes, tax equity.

The problem is that the Democrats abandoned such corrective measures, and we've seen the results -- A complete loss of any balance between the two ends of the economic/political spectrum.

And the result is that the average people are getting screwed, while the oligarchs get richer and more powerful every day.

THAT's the problem.

[BlueManDude]

21. She could have run an inspiring, uplifting campaign but chose...

the calculated down and dirty crap.

It's sad really.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. so it's HIllary's fault when Obama says something dumb?

You guys are funny.

[Armstead]

26. No it's Hillary's fault that she is amplifying it and distorting it to the GOP's advantage

[MonkeyFunk]

27. And Obama's camp magnifies everything Clinton says

you don't get immunity just because you're a little ahead.

[dchill]

70. "a little ahead." Right, you can denigrate anything...

can't you? He has won TWICE as many state primaries, he's ahead in delegates, ahead in popular votes, and it's going to stay that way. You can join Hillary on the McCain campaign in September, but even that won't make her president in 2012.

[Abacus]

72. Like what?

If you're talking policies, then yeah -- both accentuate their own positives and their opponent's negatives. However, in terms of backstabbing and shit slinging, Clinton is clearly the front runner.

[shellgame26]

227. really?

I still haven't heard one word from Obama about Hillary's sniper adventure. Try again.

[Bonobo]

36. MF, are you okay?

You have a long history of thoughtful posts, none of which has been evident in the last month or so. I wonder if you are ok.

A smart person like you, it saddens me that we cannot encourage you to even take baby-steps towards accepting Obama.

Hillary is essentially finished for 2008. Obama is a great candidate. Why don't you just try to open up a little. Some here are your friends and if you have such resistance to Obama, maybe we can discuss it. Like adults.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. One ape to another?

[Bonobo]

55. We go back many years, let's say.

About 6 million.

[MonkeyFunk]

144. I'd put you on ignore in an attempt to save our friendship

thinking things would get better. I should've kept you there.

I'd never dream of belittling you publicly like this over a candidate choice. Take care.

[Bonobo]

145. I don't have any idea what you mean.

I cannot PM you since you don't accept PMs from me. I found that out when I tried to PM you about a story that you would have been interested in.

We haven't spoken in a while. I had no intention to belittle you. I was concerned.

I am sorry that you took it that way.

[dchill]

73. Hmmm.. So now: true = dumb?

Some reality you're living in... It's the dumb truth.
:shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

130. Obama himself admits he didn't say it well

why can't you?

Calling the people whose votes you're trying get "bitter" is a dumb thing to do.

[Heathen57]

210. Myself, I am much farther along than just bitter

I am enraged, pissed-off, and any other words you want to apply. And at the risk of bursting your rose-colored bubble, I can say with a lot of certainty, that the vast majority of the country agrees with me.

People are bitter and flustrated with the way the lawmakers in Washington have ignored their plight for many years. And they want something done about it.

Clinton doesn't get it. Being in the Washington crowd since 1992, she has no idea what it is like in the real world. Most of all she doesn't want to. All she is interested in is lying and playing politics. The common people mean nothing to her except when they count as votes in a primary. If you didn't vote for her, or your state didn't have the big numbers of delegates, you don't mean anything to her.

At least Obama gets it. And he wants to speak the truth for those who Clinton would rather forget exist.

[pompano]

115. No. it's not Hillary's fault

when Obama stubs his toe. It is Hillary's fault when she runs a campaign that makes the inside of the garbage dumpster at the Howard Johnsons clean in comparison.

It's Hillary's fault whe she threw Party unity out the goddamned window and bilged that garbage about how much more qualified her and McCain were. That, being a man that admittingly says he knows nothing the economy and a woman that confabulates ridiculously sickening war stories and sniper episodes she created within the theater of her obviously disturbed mind.

No, it's not Obama's fault when the media plays ad nauseum Hillary standing in front of a podium and repeating a lie 3 or 4 times about her GI Jane episodes, which everyone knows is a lie, and superimposed on this screen is a wounded, bone broken, beaten Viet Nam POW that didn't confabulate his story, and all this plays out minute by minute a week prior to the GE.

The honorable thing for Hillary to do was drop out and get behind our best hope for a win. She didn't or won't. Notice the word "honorable"...you don't see the word honorable and Hillary used in the same sentence very often, do ya?

[Nedsdag]

148. What did he say that was "dumb?"

So everything is all hunky dory?

Then you are as delusional as that sycophant you blindly follow.

[MADem]

206. They sure are.

I also find it amazing that they call Clinton supporters all sorts of names, yet I'm not seeing Clinton supporters posting the sort of rightwing "artwork" that is scattered throughout this thread. I wonder if they lift the shit straight from FR, or do they bother to upload it to their own host first?

[ronnykmarshall]

262. ABC!!

Always
Blame
Clinton

Just like the Bushie's did when he took office.

[WillyT]

25. Hey Armstead... I Have Something For You... Just In Case...

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[Armstead]

28. That looks very uncomfortable --

Hopefully such drastic measures won;t be necessary.

[WillyT]

29. I Hear Ya... And It STILL Might Not Be Enough...

:shrug:

[Upton]

32. Hiilary is thinking about 2012

I truly believe she knows she's not going to be the nominee and is doing her best to insure Obama doesn't win the presidency.

[Armstead]

34. I'm afraid to say it -- But I think you're right

[Tarheel_Dem]

78. Well, I'm not afraid to say it. It's been evident ever since Super T...

She saw her chances drying up, and decided to employ her "kitchen sink" strategy. What I don't understand is her supporters turning a blind eye to the outright lies and falsehoods. Blinded to the fact that Mark Penn was on the payroll of a country that literally murders people with whom they disagree. Blinded to the fact that Hillary did indeed put her seal of approval on NAFTA, and then lied about it. Blinded to the fact that she told a bold faced lie, on more than one occasion, about coming under sniper fire, with her only child in tow. The only explanation has to be blind loyalty, there's no other explanation.

[Bensthename]

35. Yup, very very sad.. She wants power so bad it is killing the dems chances in Nov.

[acrosstheuniverse]

47. Yeah so she can fuck up the Democrat's chances in 2012 as well

[Armstead]

53. Not in her mind -- And we'll all be subjected to a four-year primary

[nsd]

63. You're probably right about 2012, but it's a bad strategy for Clinton.

If Obama went down on this own, Democrats might be receptive to a second Clinton try in 2012. But the way she's tried to flame him has left a lot of people angry -- angry enough, I would venture, to kill any chance she had for a repeat. Maybe even angry enough to provoke a Senate primary challenge?

[progetto]

122. She'd probably have to openly endorse McBush

to anger enough folks to challenge her Senate seat. Very bad.

[L0oniX]

266. I will still hate her then.

:grr:

[KAZ]

33. Sorry to have to say that I share your sentiments. K&R

[FrenchieCat]

38. Add me to the list......

I would be honored.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Not helpful. We will survive, her campaign won't.

So your hatred is pointless. Obama stepped into this shitstorm all on his own, and he will survive it. Clinton is just uselessly trying to pull off the upset of the century (including the last one). She should stop, but she won't. Meanwhile embrace your bitterness and transcend it.

[Armstead]

46. I've had to transcend it too many times now....This was the Straw on this Camel's Back

There have been many times when Clinton Co. got my dander up.

But this one is one too many and too potentially damaging to us all.

[StevieM]

140. It really highlights how arrogant you Obama people are with your sense of entitlement

to the presidency (something you falsely accuse Hillary of) that you keep saying "she should drop out." If Obama really had the nomination locked up you wouldn't bother to say this. All he has to do is lock up the needed delegates and this issue is closed. He hasn't done it. Obama has had plenty of chances to close the deal--so far he hasn't been able to. We'll see if he manages to evenutally.

Steve

[Warren Stupidity]

146. "We'll see if he manages to evenutally"

Look the 'entitlement' here is simply that he is too far ahead in the delegate count for Clinton to overtake him. Obama is the presumptive nominee. To the extent that we Obama supporters publicly state that he is the presumptive nominee we are indeed arrogant. Oh well. Entitlement, on the other hand, I have a problem with. Obama is 'entitled to the nomination' in the sense that he has more delegates than Clinton. That is sort of a misuse of 'entitlement'. He won. He won two months ago on super tuesday. The Clinton death march might succeed in so damaging Obama that he won't win in November, but at this point it is vanishingly unlikely that her efforts will garner her enough votes to win in August.

[charlie]

44. Eh

Variants of "elitism" have been the Democrats' perennial bugaboo since Nixon. 99% have ducked the charge as if they were hiding an uncomfortable secret. Some managed to get elected anyway. It's past time one of them took that Republican chestnut head on and defused it. Obama could be the one, if he continues his penchant for quick, direct responses to challenges.

Anyway, this election is a race with the economy. Eventually, it'll be bad enough no Republican could win. Will that happen before November?

And Hillary? She's a shit, but I knew that.

[Hepburn]

45. Welcome home, dear....

...I have always dislike Hillary ~~ I always saw her as a phony, insincere, opportunist, lying POS. Many months ago, I passed just disliking her and going to an active hate of her mode.

She is doing anything and everything that she can to damage the Dems chances in November. No doubt about it, IMO. And some are so ignorant they are unable to see her for what neo-con, elitist trash she truly is.

JMHO

[Beregond2]

56. This won't hurt

Obama much, if at all, in November. He always uses these episodes to open up an intelligent dialogue on the subject, and comes out smelling like a rose. But you are right about Hillary's disgraceful attempt to wound him with it.

[nsd]

57. A lot of people aren't going to forget or forgive this.

Even if Obama loses in November, there's absolutely no way in hell that Clinton stands a chance in 2012. And I don't think she'll get a particularly warm welcome back in the Democratic Senate caucus. I wonder if any NY Democrats are mad enough to challenge her Senate nomination. If so, I for one would gladly contribute.

[StevieM]

134. Fortunately, DUers don't represent most Americans or most Democrats.

First, we still don't know who is going to win the Democratic nomination.

Second, I don't know if Hillary will want to run again in 2012, or if she could win, but this won't have anything to do with it. The Democratic Party is inherintly fractricidal and this is pretty low on the totum poll (not that she did anything wrong--this is Barack's shame).

Third, Hillary is very well-liked in the Senate and your attempt to transfer your dislike for her to the Democratic Caucus is just wishful thinking.

Fourth, Hillary has a lot of support in NY and I wouldn't expect a primary challenge against her to be succesful, as much as you might like it to be.

Steve

[Laurab]

156. I have to disagree with your last two paragraphs.

Hillary MAY have been well-liked in the Senate, but I do believe that has probably changed, as her colleagues have watched her campaign unfold. I don't think any dislike has to be transferred - I think it's already there.

I don't know if you live in NY, since your profile is disabled, but I do, and I can tell you that she's done a good job of losing support here, and apparently it wasn't all that high to begin with. NY went 60-40 (maybe lower, I don't know whatever happened with the Harlem votes), for Hillary.

That was BEFORE her McCain praise, her Bosnia tale, her "kitchen sink" strategy. I'm not so sure it would be difficult to challenge her, especially since she doesn't seem finished yet. Her popularity here is a myth, and I personally know several people who supported Hillary at the start, who can't stand her anymore - all in NY. Think Joe Lieberman...

Of course, I disagree with your first sentence, too, but if she does cheat in some way to win the nomination, she loses the GE for sure, so I really don't know why she doesn't at least try a different approach, and try to save some of her dignity.

[stillcool]

61. I don't hate her...

I hate what she is doing, and I hate what she represents. I hate hate. I hate lies. But I know why people hate, and I know why people tell lies..which is why I don't hate her. I would have to hate myself.

[Armstead]

62. I can;t be quite that philosophical at this point

Watching her repeatedly calling Obama an "elitist who looks down on the people" makes me want to throw my shoe at the TV screen.

[stillcool]

86. I understand. That's why I can't...

watch television anymore. Now I play imaginary skeet shooting with clay models of my favorite television hosts. "Pull" :nuke:

[pompano]

75. In her best dream.....

as far as she'll ever get is "nominee". That's why the Republicans came out in masse to vote for her.

Some legacy, huh...win to loose"?

She'll be no different than Ferraro, just forgotten sooner. We will be a third world nation after 8 more years of Republicans.

That my friends, are the Clinton's for ya.

Way I see it.

[melody]

80. She's trying to get McCain elected since she can't be

It's as simple as that.

[mudesi]

82. Welcome to the club

It is growing every day.

[Lucinda]

83. Obama is responsible for his own problems.

[stillcool]

87. He sure is!

Too many delegates, Too many votes, Too many states...

[Lucinda]

102. You have no worries then, right?

[stillcool]

109. I have worries....I worry about...

homelessness, joblessness, War, torture...all that menial stuff.

[Armstead]

92. Hillary is responsoible for helping to blow them out or proportion

Exactly what did Obama actually say that most Democrats (including Hillary) actually disdagree with?

Honestly.

yes, he made a couple of poor choices of words, but do you and most Democrats not agree with his basic premise that too many people have given up on the ability of the government to solve real economic problems? And that the GOP has capitalized on this by diverting the political process to wedge issues?

What part of this do you disagree with?

[Lucinda]

104. You think people cling to guns and God out of bitterness?

[Armstead]

106. That's not what Obama meant -- and I think you know it

It was a poor choice of words.

But I absolutely do agree with what he said, as elaborated on later. "When people lose faith in the ability of the government to solve their economic problems, they base their votes on issues like guns" and (in my own words) the spiritual blackmail of right-wing preachers.

That has been the central dilemma of Democrats for at least 25 years. All Obama did was to say it out loud.

I will give you and Hillary the benefit of the doubt that you are smart enough to understand that is what he really meant. But Hillary has been lying even though she does know better. That's what is hateful.

[Lucinda]

126. Lot's of people are single issue voters. Insulting them is never prudent.

And I'm pretty sure you know that.

[Armstead]

157. I'm prtetty sure Hillarty could have said the same thing Obama did

Frankly, I could hear the exact same statement coming from Hillary that Obama made.

Obama said nothing new, and nothing that a variety of Democrats don't already believe. It has been the core frustration for years.

That is what pisses me off so much about her behavior. She is acting offended about something she knows and believes herself.

And if someone is truly a single-issue voter, there is no way in hell any politician or party will win them over. If someone is stridently anti-abortion to that extent, for example, they are not going to vote for a pro-choice candidate....Therefore any defense of choice is going to offend them.

The single-issue voters are not the ones we have to worry about or pander to.

[Heathen57]

211. Bitterness, hopelessness, rage

about things they cannot do anything about will cause people to cling more closely to things that give them comfort. Religion and guns are just two of the things that fit that bill.

[Tarheel_Dem]

93. Enjoy the ride on the S.S. Clinton. This too shall pass. Your problem

is the media hates Hillary more than Obama & McCain. All the hub-bub right now is for ratings. They'll get back to your girl & her husband, and in very short order.

[Lucinda]

105. Obama is toast. The media will decide when.

Dems have let the MSM manipulate this entire election.
Wishing it away will not change anything. Nor will blaming Hillary for Obama's every misstep.

[Tarheel_Dem]

123. Not so sure.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5482561

[Lucinda]

125. Like I said. The MSM will hit him hard, it's only a question of when.

Did you not follow the election in 2004?

[Tarheel_Dem]

133. I certainly did, but Obama has certain characteristics that Kerry just

didn't possess. He is charasmatic, and has a crack team that obviously learned from Kerry's mistakes. Which is why Pastorgate didn't sink his campaign, and neither will this. Obama has an undeniable ability to turn lemons into lemonade. The only other modern day politician who can lay claim to that is Bill Clinton, which is probably why Bill doesn't care for Obama. We shall see.

[RiverStone]

89. I find myself having an immediate feeling of anger the second I hear her...

I would not call it hate, but now on a visceral level - I feel a sense of disgust just looking at her.

Never have I felt such a strong reaction for a Democrat.

Minus the hate part, I agree with everything you said. I hope I don't get to hate her.

But it could happen if she rages on past May 6th.

[zulchzulu]

90. Put it this way. If Hillary is the nominee, I will do all I can to derail her candidacy

It is what any REAL Democrat would do.

The Clintons have proven to be poison to the Democratic Party. They simply are closet Republicans. Their campaign has proven to anyone with half a brain that it is one of the worst in American history, poorly managed, dirty, deceptive, running on fumes and devisive.

That said, Hillary Clinton WILL NOT be the nominee UNLESS she cheats and lies her way into being the nominee. And like you said, she does McCain's job very well.

[BootinUp]

91. Obama lets out a gaffe and you want to blame Clinton.

I must be reading a post at DU. :eyes:

[Armstead]

97. You are reading a post at DU

C'mon. Obama took responsibility for his verbal clumsiness. Why doesn't Hillary take a cue and behave honorably too?

And to quote from anotehr post at DU above:

Exactly what did Obama actually say that most Democrats (including Hillary) actually disagree with?

Honestly. Yes, he made a couple of poor choices of words, but do you and most Democrats not agree with his basic premise that too many people have given up on the ability of the government to solve real economic problems? And that the GOP has capitalized on this by diverting the political process to wedge issues? What part of this do you disagree with?

-- And Hillary comes in by echoing the GOP lies and spin that any Democrat who dares to actually say something true is being "elitist" and "out of touch."

You honestly think that Obama is an elitist, while Hillary is a grass-roots populist?

[Tarheel_Dem]

99. "gaffe" is the operative word here, and Hillary jumped on it like

flies on a cowpatty. When asked, Obama being the gentleman that he is, refused to comment. He probably could have sunk any chance she thinks she has, but he did it for the good of the party, and I admire him for it.

[bread_and_roses]

96. On reflection, I have to agree with you, even though I wrote something else yesterday

...maybe partially just out of jadedness with the gasping death throes of HRC's campaign, I was thinking yesterday that her use of O's words against him was no more than politics as usual. I was overlooking how often the "elitist" label has been used against most particularly anything/anyone progressive, but also against Ds in general.

(There's a terrific image in "What's the Matter With Kansas" on this....the ragged serfs storming the castle gates howling "We're here to lower your taxes!")

She could have chosen a positive route....something along the lines of "the PA-ians I know may have been knocked around by the R favor the rich policies but they are tough and ready to fight back..." blah blah blah etc (I'm sure her speechwriters are better than mine, lol).

But by calling out the RW "elitist" step she once again props up the REAL elitists stomping all over all our commons, destroying the future of our young, destroying the very planet in their obscene greed for money and power.

[marions ghost]

236. Ditto that

"...by calling out the RW "elitist" --she once again props up the REAL elitists stomping all over all our commons, destroying the future of our young, destroying the very planet in their obscene greed for money and power."

I'm ready to speak out against Hillary tactics now. It's gone beyond "politics." What she's doing IS very damaging to the Dems in general. And actually props up the real elitists--absolutely.

Hillary has GOT to go. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[LisaL]

98. What chances did you ever had in GE?

If you think it's so easy to riun those chances?

[scarletwoman]

100. Deliberately distorting what was said & then using rightwing frames to attack. I despise her.

Ages ago, when this presidential campaign first got started, I swore publicly and often that I would NEVER vote for her if she became the Dem nominee. Lots of reasons, one of the biggest being the DLC.

As the months have dragged on (and on and on...) I've revisited my conscience on this matter many times -- and had finally reached a point where I conceded that I will dutifully vote for the Dem in the presidential election, even if it's Clinton.

But DAMN! The thought of having to vote for this odious person is so stomach-curdling, I'm not sure what will happen once I step into the voting booth. (Not that I would EVER vote for McCain, mind you.)

I just fervently hope Obama gets the nomination so I don't have to face that awful gut-wrenching moment in November.

And lest anyone think I'm all that big on Obama, let me be clear: his single biggest attraction for me is simply that he's not Hillary Clinton. I'm assuming he'll disappoint and betray us just like any other politician. But he appears to be perhaps slightly less owned by the DC establishment and money powers than what we usually get; and that's probably the best we can hope for, absent a revolution.

sw

[Pachamama]

111. Add me to the list - with twice as many clothespins for the nostrils and a barf bag too...

:puke:

[BlooInBloo]

112. She's happy to sabotage our GE chances, just so she gets another crack at it in 4 yrs.

[Catherine Vincent]

114. You don't have to officially say it. Some of us already know.

Because it's what you and your ilk do best.

Happy hating! :toast:

[Armstead]

119. Yep. Let me ask you a simple question.

Obama used some poor choices of words in his original answer. But it is quite obvious what he meant, especially after he clarified it several times.

It is totally contrary to Hillary's characterization of what he said as elitist. Obama did not say anything that most grass roots Democrats and many strategists have been saying for years.

Now assuming that Hillary has a few brains, she knows that. But yet, she has chose to do exactly what Karl Rove would do, by distorting it and misrepresenting it. In the process, she is advancing the right-wing GOP strategy against liberal politics by mischaracterizing it as elitist.

You do not find that at all distasteful?

I find her deceptiveness more than distasteful. It is hateful.

[AZBlue]

120. She's despicable.

[K Gardner]

124. I join you in your sentiment.

[Eurobabe]

127. I f'ing hate her, if gets the nom, I will write in Obama

and vote for the other folks on my ballot.

[Bette Noir]

281. Me, too.

[nichomachus]

131. She had another choice

"She could have left her response to Obama's remarks to a few taps and then moved on to selling herself."

She could also have just said nothing and let his words rise or fall on their own merits, instead of putting her attack machine into hyperdrive to poison the well.

If asked, she should have said, "I'll let Senator Obama answer for his own words. I'd rather talk about the desperate situation facing our country and what people can do about it."

That gives her points for class, points for supporting the party, and points for getting out a positive message of her own.

Instead she showed no class, she damaged the party, she painted herself as a negative campaigner -- and she lost major points all around.

[StevieM]

132. Obama got himself into this mess. And he got to this point in the campaign by doing exactly what

you just accused Hillary of doing. He ripped her up and attacked her personally every time there was a dumb comment made. Like Billy Shaheen's in NH. He understood that Shaheen wasn't on staff, but he went out and told people that she was behind it and we now saw who Hillary really is. And let's not forget "the Kindergarten attack" when she finally defended herself against his accusations (smears) that she was all about power since she was 11, and pointed to his kindergarten comments, and Obama and the media ripped her up.

You reap what you sew and Obama brought this on himself, both in terms of the reprehensible campaign that he has run and in terms of the thoughtlessness of his remarks. He wasn't misunderstood....his words were characterized perfectly. He told the American people what he really thought of them.

Steve

[Warren Stupidity]

135. That is actually amusing.

Shaheen accuses Obama of being a drug dealer and when the Obama campaign objects, that is "Obama ripping her up"? Wow. Oh and you have your facts wrong regarding 'wasn't on staff'. He was at the time:

"CONCORD, N.H. -- Sen. Hillary Clinton today accepted the resignation of her New Hampshire campaign co-chair a day after he suggested that Barack Obama's candor about his past drug use would open the door to Republican attacks."
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/13/clinton_apologizes_to_obama_fo_1.html


That compaign cochair was of course William Shaheen.

[Armstead]

138. And Obama didn't make endless speeches with false claims

[StevieM]

142. He wasn't a strategist in her VA heeadquarters coming up for plans and ideas for the campaign

Obama made it sound like he was. And, yes, I consider the Billy Shaheen incident to be an Obama smear of Hillary.

Steve

[Warren Stupidity]

143. You live in upside down world.

"I consider the Billy Shaheen incident to be an Obama smear of Hillary" - yes it seems you do. You also think that the co-chair of the Clinton New Hampshire campaign was not 'on staff'. You have some very interesting thoughts going on inside that head of yours, they just don't make a lot of sense.

[Heathen57]

207. What you are seeing is

how much the Clinton campaign (via their supporters) have to twist, spin, and reverse the facts in order to make her look better than she does.

What the hell is a co-chair of a campaign if he isn't a staff member? Does she fire people who screw up if they are not on her staff?

It makes no sense. But then it is Clinton's campaign so I guess that explains it.

[Tarheel_Dem]

137. Whatever the outcome, this doesn't spell victory for Hillary.

What's so hard to understand about that? Her beating up on the presumptive nominee only serves to weaken the party, and our chances for victory in November. However you slice it, she is not going to be the nominee. You need to adjust, and deal with that reality.

p.s.: Smalltown PA isn't as gullible as you seem to think. Most people know what Obama meant, no matter how it's twisted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5482494

[DemGa]

139. Obama and his campaign have slickly called Clinton a liar from the start

You know what they say about PAYBACK.

[immoderate]

268. They wouldn't do that if she wasn't lying...

slickly or not. :shrug:

--IMM

[Vinca]

147. I watched her speaking to the press in Scranton this afternoon

and that did it for me. I don't see how I could vote for this woman, I really don't. If she's it I may have to say goodbye to you all and join the Green Party or something. I'm probably just pissed and will come back to my senses, but I don't see how on earth she expects anyone to support her after running such a Rovian campaign.

[Tarheel_Dem]

153. Rovian indeed.......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5478861

[VotesForWomen]

150. put down the kool-aide, take two asprin, and you'll feel better in the morning. nt

[bajamary]

155. "She may have just killed our chances in the GE"? Get a grip gang

Gee, Duers I know this has been a tough primary season for all Democrats but please do not fall for the idea that Hillary "may have just killed our chances in the GE". What a hyperbolic and over dramatic idea.

Certainly, all of us have lots of opinions. That's one reason we're all here.

What could truly defeat the Democrat presidential candidate this time is the childish actions of the Democrats who don't vote for our candidate no matter who that person is.

You thought this would be easy?

You ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until McCain and the RW get their full dirty trick campaign in motion.

To paraphrase another Illinoisan: "A House Divided Can Not Stand".

Vent like crazy my friends, but get out and vote for our person, no matter what !

[Armstead]

158. Reread my OP. I said I would support her in the General as far as voting.

But Hillary is laying the groundwork for the "elitist" tag the GOP will attempt to put onto Obama. She is making the GOP's joib so much easier -- and therefore, she has done a lot to ubndermine Obama before the General Election has already started.

And you can be damn sure the GOP is also going to tag Hillary as an elitist.

The GOP will try to do that to any Democrat.

But when Hillary tries to whip up DEMOCRATS to call Obama elitist, she IS doing a lot to guarantee a McCain victory.

[bajamary]

178. the GOP has already called both Democrats "elitists"

The GOP has long ago said that both Clinton & Obama are "elitists".

Gee, Obama & Clinton went to Ivy League law schools, Obama taught at University of Chicago law school as a lecturer etc. So it's doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out.

So Hillary isn't whipping up other Democrats to call Obama an elitist. The GOP's already said that of both H & O.

Obama's mistake began by using the phrase "small town folks". Then he kept digging a deeper hole saying "bitter" etc.

He's the one who put his foot in his mouth, this time.

God knows that Hillary has done "foot in mouth" many times.

Buckle your seat belts, as this political ride will become truly treacherous.

Whoever gets the nomination will be the subject of non stop RW attacks for months that will make this primary look like a kindergarten nap time.

[BlueJac]

159. I agree, I have hated the Clintons since NAFTA...

They are Repug lite and everyone should see that behind the curtain is another Republican....... I can not figure out why a progressive liberal would ever think about voting for another Clinton!

[AX10]

160. Obama has made it clear that he believes..

that he is the only Dem that can win in the fall. Why don't you have a problem with that?

[RememberWellstone]

161. He's an elitist? Who said?

You mean those gun toting, toothless, god fearing people in PA love Obama? Damn, who woulda thunk it?

[LisaL]

201. Now, now, let's be fair. Obama didn't say they were toothless.

[zalinda]

162. Again, Obama supporters are saying that if Obama

loses the GE it's all Clinton's fault. Grow up, take some responsibility. You people have been hammering the Clinton supporters for months, not on issues, but YOU made it personal.

You have continually told Clinton supporters that you don't need them, and yet...... if Obama loses, it's Clinton's fault?

Your logic is enough to make any sane person's head spin. OBAMA and his supporters will be responsible if he loses in the GE, no one else!

BTW, before I'm called stupid, a racist or a repub, I don't support ANY of the candidates, dem or repub.

zalinda

[Rockholm]

221. You are so on the money! Spot on!

And, Obama supporters are bitter.

[NJmaverick]

163. There is no shame in being a hillary hater, she EARNED that

animosity and then some. She has shown she is devoid of morals, ethics or democratic values. She has shown she has a raw lust for power where she will say and do anything to get what she wants.

[Enrique]

250. yes there is

hatred is validated on DU only because DU is currently sick.

[debunkthelies]

166. Hillzilla Is...

A monster, and I believe if she doesn't get the Dem nomination she'll do a Lieberman and run on the Independent or Green or wherever she can get her name in ticket. :rofl:

[happygoluckytoyou]

167. IF IT IS NOT OBAMA.... IM STAYING HOME.... WHY LIE

[Carrieyazel]

168. The funniest part about it is, for the first time in her life, she's touting the Second Amendment..

What a hypocrite. She's always been a very strong supporter of gun control, and suddenly she's acting like a pro-gun rights Democrat.

Bill Richardson or Bob Casey she's never been. What a character that Hillary is!

[existentialist]

170. I don't think she has--or can kill our chances in November

From first readings of the public mind it appears that Obama, and his response, are resonating better than Hillary's and McCain's criticisms, and the fact that Clinton and McCain sound so much alike isn't going to help either of them.

This one is Obama's (and ours) to win or lose.


And I think that we can win it.

[krabigirl]

171. funny, I see it differently. I see Obama as unelectable in the GE.

[BigBearJohn]

172. Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Pisces]

175. Ditto, except I was done with her after her 60 min. " As far as I know " comment

[FightingIrish]

177. Anyone who puts their presidency above their country is an elitist

[ihavenobias]

182. As someone else already posted in another thread, CNN had the PERFECT response

to this non-issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8dRMofHNs

[Xenocrates]

185. Six Words Folks: Supreme Court of the United States

That's all that really matters. All issues aside, the next President will determine who sits on the bench. I don't care who is on the ticket. As long as he/she staffs the court accordingly.

[Bitwit1234]

187. Our chances in the GE were screwed up when the high and mighty

OPPONENT of Hillary Clinton stunk everything up. McCain will win and we know whose fault that is...

[Brigid]

189. Don't worry.

Obama can deal with McCain. And I can't wait to see it. :evilgrin:

[kristopher]

191. She didn't hurt Obama's chances, she helped them.

Look at the outcome, not the process. As I post this it is 1AM and it looks to me like the republicans are going to have one hell of a hard time painting Obama as an "elitist liberal" or of making ANY headway with guns and god.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5485936&mesg_id=5485936

[Imagevision]

192. I use to like Bill but he sucks now - Hillary was ok but now I loath the bitch

what would be disgusting is if Obama's mind went south and he named Billary his VP. after all this garbage...

[kwenu]

195. Voting for Hillary will be the most VILE act of conscience I have ever done. I hope it doesn't come

to that.

[undeterred]

196. People see her for what she is.

At this point I don't think she is hurting anyone but herself. Nobody except the diehard Hillary supporters are listening, and there are fewer every day. She will never be respected again- she will be a laughingstock the rest of her life, and so will her husband.

[undeterred]

197. People see her for what she is.

At this point I don't think she is hurting anyone but herself. Nobody except the diehard Hillary supporters are listening, and there are fewer every day. She will never be respected again- she will be a laughingstock the rest of her life, and so will her husband.

[nvme]

199. I just wish it would stop

when dems try to eat dems its going to kill our chances.

[Cronus Protagonist]

204. A prime example of faulty mind-reading and straw man arguments

"If I'm not the Democratic Nominee I'm going to make sure no otehr Democrat can win either."

Hillary never said any such thing. The whole basis for your complaint is unsupported by anything other than personal animosity.

[Armstead]

249. No, just use simple logic...

The GOP will try to paint either candidate as Elitists, San Francisco liberals, condescending to voters, etc.

That was and is inevitable, because it's how the GOP plays the game.

So why has Hillary chosen to use the same GOP Rovian meme against Obama?

Just use simple logic. Project forward and visualize the McCain ads if Obama is the nominee that will have Hillary saying "We don't need an elitist candidate who looks down on you...."

[Cronus Protagonist]

263. Sorry, you can't blame Hillary for Obama's gaffe

Obama put his own foot in his own mouth. Any opposing candidate would ram it down further, just as the press and the GOP candidate is already doing. If Hillary went to Obama's defense or appeared to agree with him, we WOULD be sunk in November.

Luckily, we have a smart alternative.

[Catherina]

208. Don't fret! Fireman kitteh to the rescue!

[Divine Discontent]

209. h8 her some more, b/c yesterday she said Al lost b/c he was viewed as an out of touch elitist & we

risk the same with Obama....

never mind the majority of AMERICANS voted for him, thereby disagreeing with that insult!

I hope Gore endorses Barack today! Then Jimmy. The John Edwards.


Enough with her painful desperate slander.

[peacebird]

217. she said Al Gore lost because he was ELITIST and OUT OF TOUCH?!?!?!?!?

good grief.... Say it isn't so?

Just when I think she cannot possibly be any more hateful she proves herself to be totally TONE DEAF as well.... So much for her vastly overrated "political" skills....

Sliming AL GORE - he who has been riding higher in the estimation of folks here and around the whole world in recent years than any other American politician in recent history?

Nobel prize winner Al Gore? Man on a mission to help save the environment? THAT Al Gore?

SOMEONE - GET THE HOOK please please please - get the hook and haul her off stage. It is time to walk away Hill. Just Walk Away. NOW.

[saracat]

295. That is a LIE. She said he was portrayed as an elitist and he WAS .

[aquart]

213. Got it. You're afraid she'll eat your balls.

May I suggest she use ketchup? They won't be that tasty.

[Chalco]

216. I officially declare myself an Obama Hater.

Because of people like you, Obamatons.

Let's see if this gets deleted. If so, we know what's going on.

[question everything]

298. I don't hate Obama. In contrast to the juvies on this board

this is politics and Obama was selected by Kennedy and Daschle and others in the Democratic Party, who cannot forgive Bill for being a two-term President, to be the un-Clinton candidate.

They selected him because, first, he is a blank slate. No one can come back with any meaningful accomplishment to throw it back in his face. He is black, but a "gentrified" black who does not carry the baggage of slavery, and without a participation in the Civil Rights by a member of the family or neighbors. He certainly does not sound like Jesse or Rev. Al.

He is tall, handsome and very articulate, speaks proper English that will not cause the liberals elite to cringe.

And this is why he does not even try to reign on his followers here and on Newsweek/MSNBC: no one told him that one of his roles is to make peace among all the factions.

He reminds me of the Robert Redford movie: the Candidate. At the end, when he won, he asked his handlers: what do I do now?

[Coexist]

218. she makes me ill more often than not, nowadays.

[madmom]

219. I generally read these "I hate Hillary" declarations with a grain of salt, but

your statement that got me was:

"while at the same time ruining her own chances as a potential nominee by pissing off Obama supporters even further."

how many times has Obama supporters been warned about pissing off Hillary supporters because they might not vote for your guy, and the response was "who cares".

It's kinda like pot and kettle don't ya think?

[AlabamaBrightBlueDot]

222. Funny you should say (type) that...

As I just uttered those same words over my morning coffee.

Apparently all she needs is a boob job and a wig to be the NEW "Wonder Woman".

And before someone lashes out at me for that sexist remark; I am offended by her tactics. I am a 'wonder woman'; a single mom who has struggled for (20) years to make ends meet; to provide a home and the basics for my child; there are thousands like me in this country and with each passing day the Hildabeast loses more and more of us with her bitchy, whiney, elitist remarks; with each day we find out more and more of what she has done in her highly publicized career as the woman who didn't know her hubby was getting blown right down the hall (didn't know or didn't care?) to make my uphill climb even more difficult with her support of NAFTA.

Divisive? That would be the Hildabeast- the modern day harpy that is dividing this party; I never thought I would have second thoughts about voting in 2008, but- damnit - I will have to take a barf bag and a tranquilizer to vote for her if she happens to pull of the nomination.

[marions ghost]

242. I'm with you...

"I will have to take a barf bag and a tranquilizer to vote for her..."

For the first time I'm thinking of writing in Obama if she is nominated.

[Flying Dream Blues]

226. Sadly, I agree with everything you say. It's reprehensible. nt

[Apollo11]

229. I think Hillary did a great job explaining her point of view on CNN

Compassion Forum - April 13th - CNN transcript

MEACHAM: Senator, we'll start with the news. You have been extremely critical of Senator Obama's recent comments in San Francisco in which he argued that some hard-pressed Americans have -- economically hard-pressed Americans have, and I quote, "gotten bitter and cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or antitrade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Senator, you have written of how faith sustained you in bitter times. Many of us have been sustained by our faith in bitter times. What exactly is wrong with what Senator Obama had to say?

CLINTON: Well, I'm going to let Senator Obama speak for himself. But from my perspective, the characterization of people in a way that really seemed to be elitist and out of touch is something that we have to overcome.
You know, the Democratic Party, to be very blunt about it, has been viewed as a party that didn't understand and respect the values and the way of life of so many of our fellow Americans.
And I think it's important that we make clear that we believe people are people of faith because it is part of their whole being; it is what gives them meaning in life, through good times and bad times. It is there as a spur, an anchor, to center one in the storms, but also to guide one forward in the day-to-day living that is part of everyone's journey.
And, you know, when we think about the legitimate concerns that people have about trade or immigration, those are problems to be solved. And that's what I think we should be focused on.
But I am very confident that, as we move forward tonight and beyond, people will get a chance to get to know each of us a little better, and that's really what I want to talk about. I will leave it to Senator Obama to speak for himself; he does an excellent job of that.
And I will speak for myself on what my faith journey is and what, you know, leads me to this chair here tonight.

BROWN: But, Senator, you've been out there on the stump attacking him pretty aggressively over this. And his response has been -- and he said it pretty bluntly tonight -- shame on you. You know that he is a man of faith. This is what he's saying. And to suggest that he is demeaning religion is you playing politics.

CLINTON: Well, he will have to speak for himself and provide his own explanation. But I do think it raises a lot of concerns and we've seen that exhibited in the last several days by people here in Pennsylvania, in Indiana where I was yesterday, and elsewhere, because it did seem so much in-line with what often we are charged with.
Someone goes to a closed-door fund-raiser in San Francisco and makes comments that do seem elitist, out of touch and, frankly, patronizing. That has nothing to do with him being a good man or a man of faith.
We had two very good men and men of faith run for president in 2000 and 2004. But large segments of the electorate concluded that they did not really understand or relate to or frankly respect their ways of life.
And I think that is an issue for voters, as I've heard today from people I visited in Scranton and elsewhere. So this is a legitimate political issue. And there are some issues that are not. But this one is.
And I do believe that Senator Obama will have a chance to explain himself tonight. And I'm sure he will take that opportunity.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/13/se.01.html

[Armstead]

246. No -- She is reinforcing the very problem she claims to be concerned about

I think Hillary agrees with Obama's statement. The only reason she has jumped on it an amplified it is because she's looking at anything she can use as a club against him -- regardless of the consequences.

In so doing, she is reinforcing the GOP's message, NOT fighting it.

If she had let iot pass, or defended it, the whole thing would have blown over. But instead, she chose to help McCain to portray Obama and the democrats as "elitists."

That is hypocricy.

[pipi_k]

230. And yet, at the end of it all...

When the dust has settled, and someone finally wins the Democratic nomination, no matter who it is, I hope the loser has the grace and decency to stand up and support his/her former opponent and urges his/her supporters to follow suit.

If, by some strange configuration of planetary influences, Hillary is the nominee, I have every confidence that Obama would plead with his supporters to get out there and vote for Hillary...I don't believe he would play, nor ask his supporters to play, the "If I can't have it, nobody can" game.

By the same token, do I believe Hillary would plead with her supporters to do the same? I don't know, quite honestly. All I can hope for is that she would, and that the majority of her supporters would realize that cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is childish and dangerous.

Especially when the alternative is (IMO) a batshit crazy GWB ass-kisser.

[Tarc]

231. Obama stuck his own foot in his own mouth

Don't blame Clinton for, rightly, slamming him for it.

[Maxdee55]

232. Now I Get It Hillary Is Not Allowed To Campaign

When Clinton was speaking of sniper fire in Bosnia the Obama campaign hammered her, when Bill Clinton made statements in South Carolina that could have been interpreted differently the Obama campaign pounced, insinuating Clinton was a racist. They send supporters to question Chelsea about Monica Lewinsky (even the Republicans never did that) and that's acceptable, Obama supporters call those of us who do not support him "racist and stupid", its rhetoric like that which divides the party, not Clinton campaigning.

Had it been Hillary Clinton calling people "bitter", "clinging to guns and religion", or "anti-immigrant" the Obama campaign would have attacked her mercilessly, and it would have been just fine with the Obama supporter. The hypocrisy from the Obama side of this campaign is quite unbelievable. These are people who once staunchly defended the Clinton's when they were being investigated and harassed by the right, unfortunately the defenders have now become the attackers. But as we are told in Obamaland it is the Clinton's who are dividing the party, it is the Clinton's who are bad, it is the Clinton's, Clinton's, Clinton's.

The fantasy the Obama supporter has created for themselves is a world where Obama is almost "saintly", where everyone else is evil, where everyone else lies, where everyone else is ignorant because they do not see what they see. In Obamaland there must be a reason why others do not see the "glow of this majestic man", that has been reasoned to be racism or stupidity. One thing has become quite clear to me in this campaign that is there isn't much difference between the right and the left when it comes to attacking the Clinton's, except that the right hasn't been hypocritical about it.

[Armstead]

244. Um, it was a Clinton supporter who asked Chelsea about Monica

[BigDDem]

234. You sound bitter

do you have a gun you can "cling" to?

[meow mix]

235. i cant believe how much i hate the clintons now

i wish i had never supported them.

[BigDDem]

239. Bitter, party of one....paging

Bitter, party of one


:rofl:

[IowaGirl]

237. Think about it. If this stuff is fought out before the GE, it'll be old news by then which actually

could help either candidate who wins the nomination. When negative issues come out, if they are really non-issues then they are a nine day wonder and die down and even if they get brought up later, "Oh, I heard about that but it's no big deal." However, if something is a major issue that could derail somebody in the GE, isn't it better that it come up now so we know somebody isn't electable?

[whistle]

238. Well, well....it's politics as usual and you go hyperbolic

....Diehard Democrats will vote Democratic, but whoever our candidate ends up being that person will have to be able to take a lot more heat then we've seen so far in this primary

[Armstead]

243. There's a difference between shooting the opposing army and shooting your own troops

It's not politics as usual for Hillary to be doing everything she can to destroy Obama's ability to win in the General Election.

[whistle]

287. Better from our side now then to go into the campaign against Mc-Shame

...and the reTHUGlicon Black Ops 16" guns blasting broadside. I recall from a year ago Obama going ballistic over comments and questions from the press about his ears. Just what do you think our Democratic candidate will have launched at him or her when the real shooting from the other side begins?

[beezlebum]

240. lies, manipulation, obfuscation- the ONLY way

she can beat obama.

but, i personally don't think this is weakening obama. at all. maybe briefly, but in the long run, nah.

[Enrique]

248. congratulations

enjoy your hatred. :toast:

[ChiciB1]

251. I Haven't Posted ANY Comment In WEEKS... Even Have Tried To AVOID

watching MSM to an extensive degree, but what has struck me about Clinton is as Armstead has said. Seems to me that Clinton will stop at NOTHING. While I admit I was NEVER a Clinton supporter NOR an Obama supporter... and still AM NOT, I must say that what Obama said is essentially correct. IMHO, and it's one I've heard from many others in my circle, the candidates running seem to have brought out the WORST in so many people and I fear ANY candidate running doesn't reflect what I used to believe were "American Values!"

After so many years of what we've had shoved down our gullets, my opinion of the Executive Branch, Senators AND Representatives is at it's lowest level in my 60 years on this earth. And to think we can't even find common ground between the two candidates left is frightening to me. I've tuned much of it out and have basically chosen not to be part of the "activist" process for some time now. I at a point now where I've adopted the Marie Antoinette attitude... "Let Them Eat Cake!" Most of my relatives are really SHOCKED at my complete apathy because many have accused me of being a "political junky" for many many years!

I will say that to me Obama has conducted himself MUCH BETTER than Clinton, she does project an imagine of "if not me... then no other!" Two Democrats who do NOTHING but fight an bicker does not give me ANY HOPE!!

Say what you will about my choice not to be active this time around, but I pass the torch... time for another generation to confront what this government has become. I will continue to push the environmental and animal rights issues, but elections appear to be nothing but a "cat fight" that perpetuates and demeans others in their quest to be TOP DOG!! I suppose living in Florida only reinforces my beliefs, but it IS eroding what many felt was a "Democratic" process to some extent, even though corruption has ALWAYS existed to some degree. But today I feel we've let our government roll all over us any far too many just turn a blind eye. Our elections today seem to have become nothing more than gathering whatever negative crumbs one can use against an opponent, and it's not only sad it's destructive to the point of being "childish!" BOTH Clinton's are showing a side of themselves that has shocked me, and I once admired them both.

I had wanted to have "more" for my children and grandchildren, but my efforts are only met with a brick wall, and so many of us who feel the FEAR for this nation are at our wits end at to what can be done, and so many of us "boomers" are once again, tuning and dropping out!

JMHO!

[Deep13]

252. Oh bullshit.

Everything you have said can just as well be applied to Obama. He uses proxies like you to assassignate the character of his chief rival and arguably did McCain's job for him.

Did you think the criticisms being raised by HC are somehow only visible to her? Did you think the R.s would not bring them up on their own? O. was dead meat for November regardless of what HC says. The difference is that now people are beginning to realize it.

[Kajsa]

253. Armstead, I've been saying this all along--

Hillary and her team have been doing the work and research for McCain's campaign.

It's despicable and very self-centered.

She may say she cares about our party and our country,
but her actions don't reflect this at all.

[mtnsnake]

254. Looks like your ploy to spread the seeds of hatred has been successful. Congratulations

What a collective bunch of losers you are. Life must really suck for y'all when you need to run around getting your rocks off by persuading other fools to share in your bitterness and hatred. Looks like over a hundred fools are jumping in the same kettle as you to stew in your misery. Pathetic.

[Armstead]

269. Excuse me. Now that my work is done, I'm going to kick some kitties for amusement.

:eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

255. She has proven herself to be a truly disgusting person.

I can't believe how low she has dropped during this campaign.

[BigDDem]

256. "HATE!" is the new "HOPE!"

[DemKing]

257. Race Card 2008 = Clintons

They started the Race Issue in this election and made it allot easier for the republicans to bring it up.

Now that it was brought up by the Clintons, they opened the door for the republicans to use it in the general. If it wasnt brought up, when/if they did... it would have looked bad.

Now its a legit issue all they have to do is bring up what the Clintons said this or that!

The Clintons are CLEARLY not Democrats they arent running for the Democrat Party... but for The Clinton Party.


THEY yes Billary have NO chance of winning, they havent had a chance of winning for months and months! This is all to put dirt on Obama.


Bill Clinton has ruined his legacy now with this election...

[mtnsnake]

260. Idiots like you who throw the race card where it doesnt exist are closet racists, 9 times out of 10

Your entire post is one big fucking lie. Get lost, Clinton hater. We've got enough hateful assholes around we don't need anymore.

[IowaGirl]

286. Sorry, Obama's people are the ones crying "race" when it NEVER happened! And Obama's campaign has..

set race relations back 25 years, at least. If it's that bad just in the nomination campaign, how bad will it get in the GE?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

259. Hate the game. Not the play-ah --

:D

:yoiks:

[Auntie Bush]

265. HILLARY killed our chances!!!!!!!! NO...BARAK did !

By opening his big mouth about Pennsylvanians being bitter AAAAAND (which most people forget to notice. He said they are religious and gun lovers because of this bitterness... In other words...They aren't religious because they have always been,,,but have become religious due to their bitterness.

And this is Hillary's fault? This is a primary and politicians naturally use these condescending remarks to their political advantage. Does that make her evil? NO! It makes her a good politician and we need that Savoy to win the GE. Only the ignorant would come to that conclusion... that it was Hillary's fault or for a reason to HATE HILLARY. Grow the hell up! Read some history books on how primary are done in our free country.

[Zodiak]

267. Spell his name right

And please remember it was a Hillary supporter who infiltrated the Obama event and secretly taped him to build this manufactured outrage. Outrage over a statement that is essentially true...and considering all of the explanation that has followed, only the willfully ignorant would still be pressing the angle you are pressing now.

Hillary DLC fingerprints are all over this.

And I have been alive long enough to know that no Democratic campaign in my lifetime has been more slimy, more party damaging than Hillary's. I am sure that many DUers would agree with me.

And telling people to "Grow up" after willfully misinterpeting Obama's statements is ironic in the extreme.

[mtnsnake]

271. Go spout your pretentious self-righteous jibberish to someone who might fall for it

and when you come down off that soap box of yours, try to look at things with an open mind instead of running around looking for Hillary supporters you can "scold".

Hillary DLC fingerprints are all over this

Provide some links to prove Hillary's fingerprints are all over it or stop with your rumors. I swear, I don't know how some of you sleep at night, making up rumors about the Clintons as you go along.

BTW, if you're going to be making self-serving DLC claims about Hillary, then you should also look into your own idol, who is running one of the most DLC-type campaigns of anyone in modern history. Obama, with his "Reach out to Republicans" theme has DLC written all over him. He just isn't a card carrying member:

Ford predicted the DLC will play a major role in the issues debate that unfolds in the 2008 Democratic presidential primary process. The group will not side with any one candidate, he said, even though the organization has close ties to a number of potential nominees, from Vilsack to Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) and Joe Biden (Del.) to Gov. Bill Richardson (N.M.). Even Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) has expressed interest in "finding ways he could work with the DLC," according to Ford. (Ford describes Obama as a "personal friend" and says they talk regularly.)

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2007/01/fords_next_move.html

From a year ago:

DailyKos straw poll shows shows Kossacks prefer John Edwards 37% to Obama’s 27% with Wesley Clark a distant third at 14% (the Blogometer has checked these numbers at 6K, 13K ,and 16K votes and there has been no change in the %s). Netroots ambivalence towards Obama’s candidacy seems to stem from two related sources: 1) his perceived centrist/Liebermanesque/DLC rhetoric; 2) and his inability/refusal to lead take the lead on a major progressive issue (especially the war).

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2007/01/obama_wire_the.html

The DLC doesn’t necessarily pre-select candidates, but they do keep an eye out for possibilities. Obama has been on their watch-list for some time. Now that they see his sex appeal, they may rally behind him. He could be Hillary without the polarizing effect, a real possibility to hold the office.

http://pieceofmind.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/obama-lieberman-and-the-dlc/

[Auntie Bush]

272. Is your lifetime short or do you have the big "A" disease?

[Zodiak]

273. I'm 37

...and your implication that I am somehow have a disease is not helping your case one bit.

Address my points and spare the insults.

[Auntie Bush]

278. Spare the insults! What a hypocrite! Check out your own post.

Since 37 is the age of my daughter...I still consider her my baby...so what's that make you?

No, you haven't been around long enough to make your comment...not experienced enough either...but you sure have gotten bitter in those few years.

[Zodiak]

283. That makes me an adult

And your daughter, too, but you still have not addressed anything I wrote. And if you think that calling your post "ironic" is an insult, you have thin skin. You are willfully misinterpreting Obama's words to score political points...you know full-well what he meant by the words.

Please address the fact that Hillary's supporter taped Obama's words and used it against him and how that fits into your "Hillary is blameless" meme.

All of this calling me a hypocrite or implying I have some "A" disease (whatever that means) are only dodges. As is your "you're not old enough for a political opinion" argument (nice try to get a generation war going, but I'm not biting).

[Armstead]

270. No...That is not what he said

He said that when people lose faith in the government's willingness to represent them on economic issues, they vote on wedge issues instead.

He originally said it in shorthand, because he was speaking to a group of supporters, but he quickly filled in the blanks.

What he said was NO DIFFERENT than what Democrats have been saying and trying to deal with for 25 years.

Hillary's response is like saying "I'm shocked that there's gambling in this casino."

[Auntie Bush]

274. "What he said was NO DIFFERENT than what Democrats"

I'm not talking about what he said in some long winded explanation of his blunder. What he said was stupid and it's his fault...not Hillary's.
You people always manage to twist in the wind and spin like a whirly-gig.

[Armstead]

289. Please tell me what you disagree in his remarks

[Auntie Bush]

292. Well, for starters...I don't think people cling to their religion and guns

because they feel the gov let them down. Maybe they have always been interested in religion and guns...and they were when they were flush with jobs. To say that was just plain stupid or lack of political expertise.
No sense in defending him any longer...he already admitted he didn't mean what he actually said. What else is new?

[happygoluckytoyou]

275. I JUST JOINED YOU....AND HERE IS WHY

WE ALREADY KNOW THE DANGER OF BOMB BOMB BOMB JOHN "THE REPUBLICAN" MCCAIN....

for the past several months i have advocated allowing Clinton and Obama to duke it out---
what does not kill us makes us stronger


BUT HILLARY HAS GONE INTO A "ME OR DIE" REPUBLICAN-LITE ATTACK FORMAT WHICH WILL NOW HAVE ME VOTING MCCAIN IF SHE IS OUR CANDIDATE.....
..................NEW YORK CAN KEEP THEIR SENATOR

BARACK IS "NOT IN TOUCH"??????

BARACK DIDN'T MAKE $110 MILLION DOLLARS LAST YEAR
BARACK JUST FINISHED PAYING OFF HIS STUDENT LOANS
BARACK GREW UP IN A LOWER MIDDLE CLASS ENVIRONMENT WITH THE CONSTANT STIGMA ASSIGNED TO PEOPLE OF HIS COLOR IN AMERICA

........ HILLARY... PLEASE READ THIS... GO HOME!!!!!

[Bette Noir]

277. She'll never be President.

All Republicans and 60% of Democrats solidly hate her. If she gets the nomination, she'll lose. If Barack gets the nomination, and loses the GE because of her undermining him, the number of Democrats who hate her will rise to 100%. The only shot Hillary has of getting near the White House again is as McCain's running mate. That seems to be what she's shooting for, with her constant criticism of Obama.

Please, God, let Barack win the nomination and the GE.

[The_Casual_Observer]

282. Obama makes himself look bad. It's not Hillary's fault.

[uponit7771]

284. Even McSame has said EVERY candidate can make stupid remarks and doesn't disparage Obama for it.

...while stupid ass'd Hillary keeps up her stupid ass'd position on Obama using the wrong words!!

[Armstead]

288. Hillary does not need to exagerate a mistake

[Lord Helmet]

290. right there with you on that on Clinton but Obama will win

[WillyToad]

291. Again, we see 'hope' and 'unity' expressed in the form of hatred

As always, Obama's supporters attitude toward other democrats flies in the face of his 'hope and unity' mantra.

Hatred destroys, Hate consumes

Nazis hated

Skinheads hate

Bigots hate

Republicans hate

....and now, Obama supporters hate, and brag about it publicly.

Obama supporters have turned the Democratic party into a sewer.

[Texas Hill Country]

293. funny, i am starting to feel that way about Barack

:P

[Coexist]

294. kick.