Boston Globe Editorial: How About Howard? For VP

[WI_DEM]

John Kerry wanted Arizona Senator John McCain, a charismatic Republican, as his running mate. It's funny that the man who will be the Democratic presidential nominee is searching for charisma in a running mate, because his party could not stand the idea of Howard Dean, a charasmatic Democrat, topping the ticket in November.

News accounts of Kerry's overture and McCain's ultimate rebuff focus on the tempting idea of a bipartisan ticket that could reach across the vitperative divide in American politics. But Kerry would also benefit from the edgy energy and tell-it-like-it-is apprach politicians like McCain and Dean exemplify. Settling for the handsome but bland optimism of John Edwards makes safe poltical sense. But it also shows the limits of toerance for spark, verve and controversy when Democrats think about selling fellow Democrats to voters or when Republicans think of selling fellow Republcans like McCain to voters.

...The old conventional wisdom about a vice presidential candidate concludes that the best pick is the one who can deliver the electoral votes of his or her home state on election day. That is what keeps names like Richard Gephardt and Tom Vilsack in the mix. Neither excites, and one is virtually unknown beyond the corn belt. Dean's constituency is bigger than a single state. It's a movement synonymous with change and excitement.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/06/15/how_about_howard/

By the way a new Opinion Dynamics polls indicates that a Kerry/Dean ticket would beat Bush/Cheney 45-44 percent and in the battleground states of Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Iowa, Michigan, Minesota, Missouri, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Ohio, Oregon, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, Kerry/Dean is ahead by six-poits 48-42

[WI_DEM]

1. whoops!! the captain beat me to it.

[meegbear]

2. DUPE

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x548713

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TexasSissy]

4. Dean has a high "unfavorable" factor.

Of all the Dem. candidates, Dean consistently scored highest on the "unfavorable" rating. And that was from Democrats. So I don't think Dean will help pull in those undecided voters in the battleground states.

But for me it doesn't matter, since I'm voting for Kerry no matter what.

[WI_DEM]

6. how come in the battleground states Kerry/Dean beats Bush/Cheney

by six points meanwhile when it is Kerry and Bush head to head, Kerry wins by five--not much difference, but it doesn't appear that Dean would be a lag on the ticket.

[JI7]

7. do you have a link to the poll

[WI_DEM]

9. yes

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122378,00.html

[JI7]

11. numbers are about the same as with gephardt or kerry by himself

and i would like to see the numbers with edwards. i think edwards is the one that has consistently done well in the polls.

[WI_DEM]

12. yes

but the point is too many people on DU think that Dean would hurt Kerry and that isn't indicated. Now actually, he does slightly better with Dean as a running mate than Kerry does alone in the battleground states.

[JI7]

14. i would like to see other polls

it needs to be a trend. this is why i say edwards has consistently done pretty well. and this is fox news also. they seem to have numbers lower for kerry than most other polls. i'm not sure if i can believe them. but i would like others to conduct some polls to see what the trend is.

[mzmolly]

26. Actually Dean polls stronger then Gep in swing states. This seemingly

smallish percentage could make all the difference considering Nader and election 2000?

[TexasSissy]

35. Yes, the poll doesn't show much, does it?

What needs to be compared, as regards the battleground states, is how Kerry/Dean fares to Kerry/Edwards or Kerry/Clark, and each of those groupings against Bush/Cheney.

Kerry/Dean vs. Bush/Cheney was the same as Kerry/Gephardt vs. Bush/Cheney. And Kerry/unknown did almost as well, so.....doesn't say much about Dean, except that Dean and Gephardt would slightly help and not hurt in those states. But another candidate may help a lot?

[Capn Sunshine]

16. excuse me, a Fox news poll?

That shows Howard Dean with an "unfavorable" rating?How....appropriate

[Capn Sunshine]

13. have a link on that statement?

I'll bet that poll was taken right around the Iowa primary.
People have come to their senses since then, judging from what I'm reading here and elsewhere.

[TexasSissy]

37. Not handy, I don't.

I followed the primaries obsessively, and I saw more than a couple of polls tracking the unfavorability / favorability ratings of the candidates. Dean was always, w/o fail, at the bottom, and dead last there at the end.

I can try to locate the polls, if you think that's incorrect. But it was pretty widely known and talked about on political talk shows, etc.

[TheFarseer]

5. wow really?

i think Dean would make a great VP but I always thought Kerry/Dean would be too unbalanced of a ticket.

[JI7]

8. that guy doesn't make any sense

exit polls showed kerry won the independent votes in most states. edwards won them in wisconsin and georgia and tied with kerry among independent voters in virginia. he doesn't have any evidence to back up what he claims.

[WI_DEM]

10. maybe

but Dean would do something about a greater threat, imo, anti-war democrats and independents especially on the left are threatening to go with Nader. In 2000 everyone argues--Nader cost Gore the presidency becuz Gore didn't solidify the base. Dean would cut into the Nader threat without seriously hurting Kerry among swing voters. How could he? Dean was a budget balancing moderate as Governor and his anti-war stand is being vindicated day by day.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. and Edwards only adds to the bore factor

Boring and stodgy with boring and vanilla. Yikes

Dean would indeed add a great deal to the ticket.

[Capn Sunshine]

15. voting in primaries is not significant

the exit polls you mention were after the "decision" had been given to Kerry, post NH.

You need contemporary data to articulate how people feel RIGHT NOW. A LOT has happened since then, including the collapse of the war effort in Iraq and subsequent collapse of support for it among the entire electorate.

Which the Kerry campaign has yet to articulate or address , BTW.
Unless you count " we want to fight a bigger better war"

[JI7]

17. then i would like to see other polls also and with other candidates for

comparison.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. They have been doing those polls

23 percent say none of the above and many of the people who vote for Gep or Edwards do so because they are not given the choice of Dean.

[WI_DEM]

22. excellent point

this is the first poll I've seen where Dean was put in the mix--this recent poll along with the Globe editorial make me wonder if Dean is going to start to get more serious scrutiny for VP.

[mzmolly]

28. I hope so. The polls show that he cerainly deserves a serious look~!

:hi:

[bklyncowgirl]

40. I'd like to see how other candidates fare too

If Dean puts Kerry safely over the top in the battleground states, that may make it worth the risk of alienating some Southern voters particularly in states that Kerry's going to lose anyway.

If anyone else, particularly someone from another region of the country, can give our guy a boost in these states then it might be safer to go with another candidate.

[Kipepeo]

59. plus I don't think he would be a liability in the South

I know that is the conventional wisdom, but I am from the South, lived there my whole life until recently, and Dean resonates with Southerners I know. Even my repub. dad had a lot of nice things to say about his fiscal responsibility, which is big for him considering that is the only point he will concede on Dubya (that yes, he fouled up the economy).

Maybe it is wishful thinking, but I am cnofident he would be no "liability" in the South.

[mzmolly]

20. YEEEEARRRGH on that poll info! It's about f-ing time someone started

talking about this!

GRACI Joan Vennochi !!! :toast:

[Cheswick2.0]

21. Her E-mail address

In case you would like to thank her.

[e-mail]

Ps... it is all about the swing states and Dean helps Kerry there. The south is not in play not matter who he puts on the ticket.

[mzmolly]

24. Thanks Ches.

I will be thanking her..

[WI_DEM]

27. true

but I don't think Dean would hurt the ticket in the south either. In the poll I mention where Kerry/Dean is ahead by six-points it includes states like Arkansas, Missouri, West Virginia, and Florida.

[Cheswick2.0]

36. yes Dean has appeal in every region

But his real advantage is his ability to bring out the activists.

[I thought so.]

23. Fuck the Globe.

More Kerry bashing. They just hate him. Dean is a loser. He was the best candidate in Iowa and ran a poor third. He lost New Hampshire too. Then he quit.
We don't need quitters.

Rove pointed out Dean as his best opponent. Such wishful thinking.

Rove has hours of tapes of the raging Dean and the stupid things he said(I'm the only candidate from a farm state)

The Globe wants to derail Kerry,so they pander this BS.

[WI_DEM]

25. thanks for your perceptive comments

First, The Globe is the more liberal paper in Massachusetts and usually has supported Democrats including Kerry. Oh, you take Rove's leaked comments that he wanted Dean more than anyone? Why would he publically say that? I think the reason is he feared Dean more than anyone else and was hoping people would take his comments the way you did. By the way, he has hours of tapes and votes of Kerry which he is using the same way he would have attacked Dean--as a spendthrift liberal who would weaken the military. Only thing is Dean was a budget balancing Governor who has been consistently proven correct on Iraq.

p.s.
he didn't quit after NH. He quit after Wisconsin.

[mzmolly]

29. That post was on par with "Nah nah nah nah nah"

wasn't it? I didn't bother to respond though it was difficult LOL.

:hi:

[bklyncowgirl]

34. Dean quite because he was beaten and did not want to damage Kerry

I don't know whether this Dean for VP thing is a good idea or not but let's be fair here--the guy was dead after New Hampshire and knew it. He hung in (sort of) until Wisconsin to see if Kerry stumbled--those intern rumors were floating around at the time--and then folded up his tent and has been in the Kerry camp ever since. Dean dropped out because he did not want to waste money and energy on in a lost cause and possibly further damage Kerry and the party in the process.

Regarding Rove having trash on Dean, I hate to break it to you but Rove has trash on every possible candidate. Anyone who thinks that Edwards or Clark or anyone else is going to be immune to Republican attacks is smoking something.

Edwards: Can you say inexperienced trial lawyer, Clark: How many right wing army officers with a grievance and more ambition than integrity can Rove get to say the guy's a nutcase? Gephardt: Flip flopper, why here he is in the Rose Garden with the president signing the Iraq War Resolution. Now he's changed his mind for political purposes. Vilsac: Who? Graham: Flaky diarist.

We're talking about serial liars here who could take Kerry--a bona fide war hero--and turn the arguement from their guy's cushy no show stint in the Texas National Guard to whether or not our guy deserved one or more of his purple hearts earned in the war his guy avoided.

The choice is Kerry's to make and he has to make it based on who can help him win and who can help him govern.

39. What's that sound?

:hurts:

oh, I thought so...

[Lestat]

42. No kidding.

Dean is a loser. Let's go for a winner.

[mzmolly]

30. Check this out guys...

NEW THOUGHTS ON A DEAN VICE PRESIDENCY!
WHY DEAN? by Melinda Lachance, USC History Scholar

http://www.draftdeanforvp.org/LachancePopup.html

The poll is also on the draftdean site!

[janx]

31. If such a thing were to happen...

I'd love to see Nader's face!

[WI_DEM]

32. I think that would be funny

33. Now that's a good one

:-)

[mzmolly]

38. Ohhhhhh me too!!

:hi:

[Lestat]

41. What a joke...if Howard were to be picked for VP...

Kerry would lose the election for sure. The media already killed Howard. Why keep beating the dead horse?

Kerry needs to pick someone who everyone likes...like Edwards.

[mzmolly]

46. Let's lee Lestat, or credible polling by Zogby and others ... hmmm

:freak:

ZOGBY IT IS!

[Dinger]

43. If It's Not Clark (It Should Be), Dean Is Better Than Edwards

I'd be less disappointed. But as far as I'm concerned, it's Wes Wes Wes!
Pleeeeeeeaase!!!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

45. You sir, have reaced a brand new low.

How dare you compare Dean with KOBE BRYANT OR MICHEAL JACKSON!? Dean has not been accused of rape or pedophilia! I've heard far more intelligent shit from Limbaugh in his drug induced state.

I am shocked by your disgusting comment.

Further, I noticed you didn't comment on the polling data that shows Dean helping Kerry in swing states? Or the data showing that Nader becomes a non-issue with Dean in the race? Or, the part where KERRY/DEAN ARE BEATING BUSH/CHENEY ACROSS THE ENTIRE US!

[zulchzulu]

47. You have again taken it out of context

I was merely pointing out that the Globe would recommend a VP candidate that would make Kerry lose.

You need to take some reading comprehension classes and possibly stick to decaf.

A Kerry/Dean ticket would be foolish on many levels. Briefly, having Dean back in the race brings up all the gaffes he did back into the limelight. Having a MA/VT regional ticket is just plain stupid from an electoral standpoint. Thinking that having Dean as VP would confuse away the Naderoids is simply not tangibly understanding their mentality, which would be that Dean "sold out" to The Man. Whatever...

Dean would make an excellent Sec. of Health/Human Services. That's what he loves.

[mzmolly]

48. My comprehension skills are fine. You apparently need some though.

Also, I don't care for your comparisons regardless of your so called intent.

You fail to recognize that Dean HELPS KERRY WIN. Read the data and comprehend it.

Dean would make AN EXCELLENT VP, his country is what he *LOVES*

Also note that Zogby, not the globe/Faux news posted similar results.

DEAN HELPS KERRY WIN! DEAN NEUTRALIZES NADER! ... Boston Globe aside.

[zulchzulu]

49. So the Naderoid Shell Game is so important?

Based on the primaries, not everyone liked (or likes) Dean. You may recall he dropped out after Wisconsin after losing pretty badly. He is prone to making gaffes under pressure.

So having him on the ticket merely to appease the Naderoid fuzzheads is not enough, imo. These people won't like ANYONE... I've met with many and talked with them and always forget to have a roll of tinfoil at the ready to help make hats for them. They are flakes.

Besides the other points I made about the weakness of having Dean on the ticket from a regional standpoint, he might actually turn off a lot of other voters that were not big fans of Dean.

Dean, like I've said before, would make an excellent Sec. of Health/Human Services.

[mzmolly]

52. Dean as I've said before would make an excellent VP.

Based on the polls, people would vote for Kerry/Dean, so apparently they've come around. You could say "based on the primaries not everyone likes Kerry and it would be factual.

It's not about appeasing Naderoids, it's about winning. You obviously are not aware that Nader is swinging "swing" states to Bush? You are also apparently unaware that Dean neutralizes the Nader factor? Additionally a Kerry/Dean ticket is polling stronger nationally *swing states included* then an Kerry/Gephardt ticket.

Your weakness scenario about Dean is simply unfounded. Polls show he strengthens (not weakens) the ticket. :hi:

[zulchzulu]

54. One can dream....

I'd be willing to wager that there will not be a Kerry/Dean ticket.

As for Nader, by the time the election nears, he will be insignificant. If he is, this country is more stupid than I thought and I'll be moving to Europe anyway.

[mzmolly]

55. Well considering only one man/woman will be chosen for the VP

slot, I'd say were all *dreaming* right now. I'm dreaming that Kerry will sit in the OO this Novemeber also. It's all one big dream at this point.

Regarding Nader, I'm not willing to dismiss him this time. He has the Republican money machine behind him, and as time goes by each of the candidates will come under more scrutiny. Nader will be the protest vote.

[Upfront]

58. You Haven't Talked To Me.

I am no flake and I think Dean would help Kerry win in a big way. Cool it just a little please.

[zulchzulu]

60. Um.....hello?

I wasn't referring to people who support Dean as VP as "flakes". I was referring to Naderoids.

Sheesh... go http://www.hio.ft.hanze.nl/thar/reading.htm">here.

[Forkboy]

50. You're not really that stupid are you?

[Southsideirish]

51. Howard Dean would electrify the party and the ticket. He's just

what we need and 'would be a fantastic counterpoint to the more serious and staid Kerry. A ticket made in heaven, to be sure.

[mzmolly]

53. Heck yeah! You said it! Must be the Irish in you?

But, I'm partial, as I'm Irish too. ;)

[Justitia]

57. I agree! Hope is alive again - DEAN FOR VP!!!!!!!

Ok, I'm allowing myself a bit of excitement here, but my hopes for our party have been pretty low since Dean left.

We really, really need him guys! We need a VERY STRONG VOICE to carry Kerry to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, and Dean's the man to do the heavy lifting.

Please, let's not get the shit kicked out of us in the next 5 mos.

Dean for VP! Come on Howard, bring it home!:party:

[mzmolly]

56. Kick

:kick:

[zulchzulu]

61. I fired up an old VHS tape of Dean on MTP last January

It re-confirmed my fears that he would not be the right guy to be VP.

He may have changed his tune now, but there are so many soundbites of him attacking Kerry (inaccurately and deceptively) as well as his hot-headed demeanor when asked questions under fire that proved to me that he would not be a good choice for VP. Sec. of Health and Human Services...YES! VP....um....no.

Edwards comes across as more congenial and friendly with the ability to still deliver zingers against Bush without looking like an angry malcontent.

I suggest anyone who has old tapes of these interviews and debates to check them out.

[WI_DEM]

62. nothing Dean did in this campaign compares with what Bush I

said about Reagan and he bacame his loyal VP. This campaign was on the whole not devisive, certainly when compared to many others including 1980--the Carter/Kennedy slugfest or Reagan/Bush. Edwards is good and yes he is friendly, but I don't agree with you that Dean comes across as a angry malcontent. This is a ticket, imo, which could use some fire not more syrup.

[zulchzulu]

64. I agree to a certain degree

Actually after watching the old tape, I felt having a new face would be better for VP. Then we come to who the heck that might be... Bayh, (nope), Richardson (he doesn't want it), Hillary (um...), Zinni (sounds like a pasta dish...)...

[Cuban_Liberal]

63. Dr. Dean is the 'bet it all' choice:

He's a gamble: he could provide a HUGE win, or a huge loss. His plusses and minuses have been detailed at length, leaving the only question "Is it worth the risk?". I would personally work my a** off for this ticket with genuine enthusiasm, but would the voters be equally enthused? I dunno, honestly...

:shrug: