Michael Moore on Dean: "we thought Geez, this guy is kind of a prick. "

[Bombtrack]

haha.

http://www.wach.com/Global/story.asp?S=1940081

Oscar-Winning Filmmaker and Best-Selling Author Michael Moore Is July's Playboy Interview

NEW YORK, June 14 /PRNewswire/ -- Michael Moore, Playboy's July Interview (issue on newsstands now), is ready to stir up national controversy once again as he prepares for the U.S. release of his new film Fahrenheit 9/11 -- a scathing indictment of the government's post-September 11th actions. "The tragedy was a bonanza for the administration," Moore tells Playboy. "Immediately after the dead were buried, Bush's people realized they had a golden opportunity."

<snip>

On the ties between the Bush and Bin Laden families: "If you tell Americans the Bushes have been in business with the Bin Ladens for years, they think you're a lunatic. But then, why would Bush allow a Saudi jet to fly around the country to pick up all the Bin Ladens -- relatives of the number one suspect in a mass killing -- so they could get out of the country the week after 9/11?"

On meeting Howard Dean: "My wife and I went to meet with Howard Dean with the idea of supporting him. We brought our checkbook. But we weren't in the room with him five minutes when we thought, Geez, this guy is kind of a prick. We didn't write the check."

<snip>...

[cosmokramer]

1. hahahahahahahhahahahahahhaha

That's why he endorsed CLARK...Dean was a prick...lol

Thanks for posting this, Bombtrack--really made me smile today!

[madfloridian]

20. Ah, that is not a smile, that is true laughter.

Glad you enjoyed it.

[funky_bug]

2. I've said it before, I'll say it again...

Sometimes I just want to leap into the computer and plant my foot firmly in MM's mouth. This would be one of those times.

But hey, he's got Lehain working for him now... what do you expect?

[Southsideirish]

3. Most of us read this when it came out. What is your purpose in

posting this tired old crap again? Who cares who Moore and his wife don't like?

[AmyStrange]

4. I've heard through the grapevine...

that some repubs thought the same thing about Moore.

Good thing Moore still got his message out,

d

[Dogmudgeon]

5. And he ain't the first to say so

Howard Dean may not be all sweet and cuddly, but he's done the Democratic Party and America a great service.

Everybody has their faults. Mike Moore has done a thing or two that really rankled me, too. But if they're pulling for "Liberty and Justice for All," then they're on "my side". And the past three years, tough as they have been, have shown me that we have a lot great people left in this country.

--bkl

[Bombtrack]

17. Alot of people disagree

I think he did and has done far more of a disservice to the party and politics in general. It's arguable. And alot of people are seeing alot revisionist history from people who just want to forget about the shit he and his campaign pulled. I know people love him, fine, but his positive status is definetly not agreed apon in this big tent party.

[madfloridian]

19. Making the party start speaking up is NOT a disservice.

He has made a huge impact on the Democrats, though not quite enough. People are talking out more now on important issues.

This statement concerns me:
" And a lot of people are seeing a lot revisionist history from people who just want to forget about the shit he and his campaign pulled...."

Could you read this please? It shows that he was not the only one pulling sh**.
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/06/green.htm

All I ask is that we be fair.

[cosmokramer]

22. I agree 100%...

Dean trashed his own party members, calling them 'cockroaches' and 'republican lite'. He definitely hurt our party and has quickly become the anti-democrat poster child for the GOP. So people calling Michael Moore out for calling Dean a 'prick' while defending Dean is outrageous.

[madfloridian]

24. Read this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/06/green.htm

[cosmokramer]

39. Read it, and you get no points whatsoever...

Dissemination of factual information is quite different than name calling. One candidate calling another a 'cockroach' vs. another candidate demonstrating falsehoods and contradictions in the record of another is significantly different.

I want to know if someone is lying or not representing the facts correctly because that is how we make logical decisions as voters, and another candidate pointing out the facts is in no way 'tearing' the party down. But to call someone a name--cockroaches or republican lite--with no basis other than just being an ass is harmful.

[madfloridian]

40. It was not a candidate he called cockroaches.....

Look up the quote, put it in context. Reading the article should make you see there was plenty of ugliness to go around.

[cosmokramer]

43. I know the quote. I have put it in context.

Dean was verbally attacking all persons in 'WaRshington' with his remarks, and that includes democrats--lots of wonderful, honest democrats.

I read the article, and I do not call honest facts ugliness. I call hot tempers with foam spewing out of the mouth laced with venom ugliness, which is most certainly the intent of the 'cockroaches' remark. Surely you cannot expect opponents in a primary to not do fact checking and turn over inconsist data to the press???? That would be ridiculous! A primary is not a campfire where we all gather around and sing and point out all the wonderful things accomplished by our opponents. Dean did something quite different--he verbally assaulted the 'establishment' and pigeon-holed all democrats into the 'establishment'. Furthermore, he would LIE to try to tear down his opponents.

I am GLAD he is not carrying the banner for the Dem party as our nominee--thank God it's Kerry, even though he was not my first choice. At least Kerry can be trusted.

[madfloridian]

47. Oh my goodness, you are so angry.

I don't think I have ever been that angry with anyone but Georgie Bush. I have been accused of being one issue on the war vote...but I believe that is better than worrying so much about cockroaches. It was said jokingly, and not nearly as serious as war.

[cosmokramer]

50. Not at all angry...

...with Dean or with anyone (ceptin' the Preznit). If anything, I am grateful. Grateful that he exposed himself as all flash and no pan. I don't hate him, but I don't like him. I RESPECT that he is now working to raise funds for the party, and am glad for it.

War is serious--and I likely have more of a stake in it than many as I am the parent of a teenage son who will turn 18 in the upcoming administration. This lioness firmly believes in protecting her cubs. THANK GOD the nominee is not Dean because we would lose our asses in November--not just in the White House, but the Congress, the state house, everywhere. And that would mean a legitimately elected sociopathic Bush for another four years, and my immigration to Italy.

Just being opposed to a war was not enough for Dean, and it is not enough to win the confidence of the American people. He had to be something more than an angry, anti-war loudspeaker...and he just isn't. Some of his ideas were good, but the mouthpiece was terrible. I want the Dems to win this fall--and win BIG--all over the country. I hope Kerry can do it--all of our futures depend on it.

Hopefully, you can appreciate my candor.

[janx]

56. Your candor? Now? After every other post you have made?

Nay, sorry.

I am the parent of a 22-year-old son, and I disagree with you about who would best beat Bush* in the general election.

That's a difference of political opinion, not a fact. You have no way of knowing, in fact, who would lose in a general election, but your point is *completely* moot anyway, because Dean isn't running anymore--or have you forgotten that? Or is it just more fun to trash someone regardless of the actual situation?

The primaries are over, cosmo. Why do you behave otherwise?

[mzmolly]

70. The "all flash no pan" Doctor got much more support then the General

didn't he?

Dean wasn't "just opposed to the war" he governed Vermont for 12 years and was ELECTED TO 5 TERMS IN OFFICE! He also served in other positions in Government.

Some of Dean's *not so flashy accomplishements* are as follows:

Fiscal discipline. In the first half of the 1990s, Governor Dean imposed strict fiscal discipline that led the state out of an inherited $60 million deficit. He cut the income tax three times, removed the sales tax on most clothing and shoes to help working families, and reduced the state's long-term debt. In 1991 Vermont had the lowest bond rating in New England. Today Vermont has the highest rating in New England, AA+. Since 1996 under Governor Dean's leadership Vermont's per capita debt has dropped by 23 percent.
Health care coverage. Governor Dean strengthened Vermont's Dr. Dynasaur program to guarantee health coverage for virtually every child age 18 and under. Over 92 percent of all Vermonters have coverage - one of the highest rates in the country - and 96 percent of all children under 18 are covered. Dean believes the United States needs a health care system which results in coverage for every American.

Mental health. In 1997, Governor Dean signed into law the nation's most comprehensive mental health and substance abuse parity bill in the nation, ending discriminatory insurance practices against these major diseases. The Governor has been a strong proponent of community-based treatment, as well as comprehensive services for children with serious mental health problems.
Education. Like other leading states, Vermont adopted high standards testing which has resulted in significant improvement in school accountability. Unlike other leading states, however, Vermont has adopted a system of sharing educational dollars across the state, so schools in poor communities have the same financial backing as those in wealthy communities.

Environment. Under Governor Dean, Vermont has closed more than 70 landfills, increased the percentage of recycled waste to nearly 40 percent of all Vermont waste, and set aside hundreds of thousands of farm and forestland which will never be developed.
Equality. Building on a commitment to equal rights for all Americans, Governor Dean has signed into law tougher penalties for hate crimes, as well as tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more. Vermont is the first state to legally recognize long-term committed unions between gay and lesbian couples.

Just *fighting* wars and going to college, does not a President make. Dean was an experienced and respected Governor, so I'd say your *candor* is disingenuous.

[Sean Reynolds]

57. Yet here you support Clark......

A man that was in the bed with Republicans up until he decided to run for president.

Oh, I forgot, he voted for Gore in 2000.

BS!

The Democratic Party needed a good KICK in the ass, it got it. Sadly it needs yet another KICK in the ass.

And people wonder why the GOP continues to gain membership, while the Democratic Party loses it? It's because it's a party that has lost its stand on the issues.

[incapsulated]

58. *sigh*

He also voted for Clinton. Twice.

I guess 12 years voting the Democratic ticket isn't enough for some people.

So, are you a Communist or something? How long have you been voting for the Communist Party? Or is this just for effect, to make you look like a rebel or something? (Not going to shock anyone here, I hope you realize.)

:eyes:

[Sean Reynolds]

67. Why should it be?

Dean's been a Democrat his whole life and is being told he hurt the Democratic Party.

Well Clark's been hurting the Democratic Party since long before Dean. He did that by voting against them.

But it's ok when Clark does it, right?

Fuck that.

As for voting 'communist', this will be my first presidential election in which I do get to vote.

[Justitia]

68. A lot of us think MM has done a disservice to the party & politics too.

A lot of us think MMoore is a prick.

My opinion of him is evolving, and that mostly comes from his shutting his mouth and letting his work speak for itself. Prior to that, I thought he made a lot of us on the left look like idiots.

So, there you have it. The flap to the big-prick tent is always open! :evilgrin:

[demnan]

6. Last time around . . . he voted for Nader

n/t

[cosmokramer]

7. Pissed off Deanies should cut MM some slack here--

...the man just put out a film that is likely to hand this election to the democrats--and not just the presidency.

Relax, it is his opinion and nothing more. In fact, many of us may share his opinion. That little remark will not hurt democrats nearly as much as his vocal nature and this new film will HELP us.

[ECH1969]

8. Moore

As much as I respect Moore's right to say whatever he wants and never be censored. He still often comes off as an asshole to me. And, this is one of those times. I am sure Dean and many other dems have felt that other dems including Kerry are pricks the difference is they don't say it in public.

[cosmokramer]

9. Maybe Dean IS a prick...

...and MM is not a politician--he can say whatever he wants to say. Thank GOD he has a loose tongue and will say exactly what he thinks.

[ECH1969]

10. Yes, but there is something called tact

Even non politicans should have it about certain things, I mean if Moore met Kerry for Dinner and he thought he was an asshole, it wouldn't be tactful for him to blather to the media that Kerry is an asshole.

[cosmokramer]

12. You have to accept people for who they are...

...and 'tactful' just isn't Michael Moore. If he had tact, he wouldn't be doing the type of documentaries he is so good at...no one is everything.

[madfloridian]

25. Then shouldn't you accept all our Dems as they are?

If you follow that logic?

[cosmokramer]

41. I accept and expect nothing but the truth.

Tact is different than honesty. I respect honesty. If someone is a liar, I have no use for them, no matter which affiliation they belong to. Michael Moore stated what is his truth, and I respect his right to say it, no matter what.

[madfloridian]

42. Then by that token you should respect all our Democrats.

Unless they are not telling the truth.

[cosmokramer]

44. Respect, Tact, Honesty, and Likability are all very different things.

I can respect anyone who is honest, but I don't have to like them.

[madfloridian]

48. That is fair.

I do not like Clark, but I don't go around criticizing him. There is a difference between criticizing to hurt someone and constructive criticism. And just plain biting your tongue instead of saying something hurtful.

[incapsulated]

49. C'mon Kramer

If someone else equally famous and in-the-recent-news said Clark was a prick and someone posted that person's "truth" here you would go ballistic.

There is no point to this sort of thing other than to hurt Dean supporters, since I doubt Dean himself hangs out here or gives a shit what we say about him.

[janx]

53. But it's such an easy sport!

It requires no research, no logic, no integrity. ;-)

[janx]

51. "his truth" ? No, it was his opinion--at the time. Here is a slightly

more recent opinion:

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-01-20

"As one who does not support Dean, I would like to say this to you: DON'T GIVE UP. You have done an incredible thing. You inspired an entire nation to stand up to George W. Bush. Your impact on this election will be felt for years to come. Every bit of energy you put into Dr. Dean's candidacy was -- and is -- worth it. He took on Bush when others wouldn't. He put corporate America on notice that he is coming after them. And he called the Democrats out for what they truly are: a bunch of spineless, wishy-washy appeasers who have sold out the working people of America. Everyone in every campaign owes you and your candidate a huge debt of thanks.

Though I am backing Clark because I personally prefer his manner and his stands on everything from jailing polluters to taxing the rich (not to mention his electability), the worst thing that could happen now would be for the Dean revolution to come to an end. If you have backed or worked for Dean, you must understand the remarkable things you have done and what you have accomplished:"


So in fact, Moore disagrees not with Dean, but with you.

[cosmokramer]

52. Actually, he is primarily addressing Dean's supporters in that ...

...statement. And the interview in which he referenced the 'prick' remark was conducted more recently--July issue of Playboy.

[janx]

54. Whoops--read again. More carefully this time:

"He (Dean) took on Bush when others wouldn't. He put corporate America on notice that he is coming after them. And he called the Democrats out for what they truly are: a bunch of spineless, wishy-washy appeasers who have sold out the working people of America. Everyone in every campaign owes you and your candidate a huge debt of thanks."

No, cosmo, he clearly disagrees with you.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. Moore also called the dems spineless, weakneed and

said they betrayed the poor and the middle class. Did it just the other day with Matt Lauer.

[Bombtrack]

18. So Kerry-disliking Kerry voters don't say anything about it public?

That's just laughable. Some of them have started a website that calls him a douchebag and is now one of the first hits on google

[Tom Rinaldo]

61. Moore is kind of our leftist intellectual shock jock

Usually I am thrilled at two thirds of the things he says and wince at the other third. He is not one for toning anything down. A man of loud opinions, who manages to get heard. Since I agree with most of them, overall it is a very good thing.

[NoPasaran]

11. Didn't we already have this flame war?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1790377

I thought so.

Does anyone have anything constructive to add?

[mzmolly]

71. Yes, yes we did. We also saw the cnn interview where Moore said

"Dean is a good guy" Don't get the on going obcession with a man working to elect John Kerry. But then again, I haven't *got* the motivation of the OP on numerous occassions? :shrug:

[TSIAS]

13. I won't hold this against Moore

I have great respect for Michael as a filmmaker and author. I simply don't always agree with his choice of candidates. I didn't support Nader in 2000, and I sure as heck didn't agree with his Presidential endorsement this time around.

Still, I think Moore does a great public service and my enthusiasim for Fahrenheit 911 is not dampered by his remarks about HD.

[demnan]

14. Look, it was a dumb comment

and it wasn't backed up by anything substantial. We wouldn't let our enemies get away with such a remark, why should we allow our friends?

[madfloridian]

15. Moore has a right to say that. However.....

This has been posted here quite often, and the accompanying laughter shows that is meant to irritate.

I think it is a little obvious. Moore later said some nice things, but they don't get posted.

It is NOT a classy thing to say, whoever says it. I hope it gets a whole lot of attention so people will remember it this time. Over and over and over.

I think Dean is not likable by everyone. A person who is not a prick sometimes will not make much of an impact. He sure did make an impact. LOL

His numerous appearances this week, and extensive media coverage must have made it important to post this again.

[madfloridian]

16. In fact I think we should keep this thread going a while so we remember it

Then it won't have to be posted again for a long time.

[dolstein]

21. I thought -- "Geez, this guy is kind of a phony"

Howard Dean had been anything but a left-winger as governor of Vermont. Then all of a sudden he morphed into the second coming of George McGovern.

[madfloridian]

23. Actually the media did that. He often called himself anything but liberal

He would laugh when he was asked that by the press. Once he said if the Dem party considered him a liberal, then they had really gone too far to the right. He always said he was no liberal.

He did, I think, become more open-minded about many issues when he saw how hungry people were for a politician to say something real.
He even mended some fences with the Dems in the VT statehouse.

This is just propaganda that he pretended/pretends to be liberal. There is a difference though between and many of the other candidates....he is NOT driven by the ideology that some are.

He is not approving of the remapping of the middle east....he said the neocons tried that and failed miserably. I feel many of our candidates and former candidates approve of our taking it over.

[janx]

26. MF, try not to take the bait.

;-)


Hey. Have you heard anything about the Rainbow/PUSH event? Someone mentioned it in this forum, but when I checked the Rainbow web site, I didn't see much listed there.

[madfloridian]

27. Not taking the bait. I just don't see letting this go on without comment.

No one cares anyway.

I fully intend to keep posting about the things Dean does,and I fully expect to keep being made fun of and be called various names..

You know me, mzmolly, it is just plain stubbornness on my part. These guys post it, keep it going, and I intend to have a say.

I know no one is convinced, nor do they convince me. But I know I have had my say.

I have the Rainbow Push somewhere, it is a great article. Don't worry, it is not taking bait....it is saying that Dean posts have a right here as well as all the others.

Ok, here is the article:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-jack18x.html
SNIP..."Kerry is scheduled to speak June 29.

Cosby is expected to address issues in education on the concluding day, July 1.

The conference, entitled "2004: A Year of Critical Choices For Inclusion and Growth,'' opens Saturday, June 26, with a "Reunion Day'' for supporters of the first serious bid by an African American for president 20 years ago. In 1984, the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr., PUSH's founder, launched his first of two presidential campaigns.

Sunday, June 27, will feature a Leadership Summit Day, with invited guests including former Democratic presidential candidates Howard Dean and Sen. John Edwards, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr. (D-Ill.) and Democratic Illinois U.S. Senate candidate Barack Obama.

A key theme that day, Jackson said, will be how to maintain the "integrity of the vote'' in November's presidential election and avoid the "schemes that were used to steal the vote'' four years ago from Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore."

Sun-Times staff

[janx]

29. Thanks for the info! Dean's amazing. He just doesn't stop!

Someone around here mentioned it a few days ago, but there was no link; it was one of those "I heard from somebody that..." comments, and I never knew exactly where and when anything was going to happen.

[madfloridian]

31. It is odd it is not at their website. That is the only article I found.

You are right about the schedule. It is pretty filled.

[janx]

33. The website mentioned the event very prominently, but it

didn't go into the specific schedules or guests. They may have upgraded it since I looked at it a few days ago.

[janx]

36. And by the way, MF--

You should never stop speaking your mind; I hope you didn't read anything I said that way. It's just with these flamebait threads, I hate to see your dedication go to waste.

[madfloridian]

37. I knew how you meant it for sure.

I was not worried. I knew.
:hi:

[Cheswick2.0]

28. Dean never said he was a liberal..... now Lieberman calling himself

a democrat, that's phony as all hell. :hi:

[madfloridian]

30. You are right. We all need to be seriously on guard with the press.

They get us all up in arms as they play their games. Look at Jodi Wilgoren.....she is going after Kerry the same way she did Dean. I remember begging them to ignore it.

The press started this liberal stuff with Dean, and it just took over here.

:hi:

[janx]

32. I remember seeing some awful piece Wilgoren did about Kerry--

and I remarked that if there was one, there would undoubtedly be more. Have there been?

To use one of my favorite cliches, she's like a dog with a bone when she gets going.

[Forkboy]

69. *snarf*

:)

[JI7]

34. does anyone know what date Moore endorsed Clark ?

i know he did support clark but i can't really remember an announcement of it. because it seems like something i should remember on du . i'm sure something like that was a huge thing on here.

[janx]

35. Good question! I can't recall, but there were all kinds of

celebrity endorsements flying around for all of the candidates, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle.

Things moved pretty fast in those days. You might find it on google.

[cosmokramer]

46. January, at a ceremony in New Hampshire...

...along with George McGovern.

[WillyT]

38. My God, A Politician Might Be A Prick Too, Stop The Presses !!!

Fer Christ's sake folks, do you remember some of your junior high and high school classmates that ran for school president???

Have you met people who've actually attained political office: School Board, City Council, County Commissions, and everything else up the line???

I have, many times. And a whole bunch of em will show you their 'prick' side once the cameras are off and the checkbooks are closed.

You have to have one REAL BIG ego to run for office, and the bigger the office the bigger the ego. For President, you're gonna need an ego the size of Montana. It's almost part of the job requirements.

Dean lost, and is now helping Kerry, and the Democratic Party in general. Do any of you think Kerry or the Dems want Dean to remove himself from the fight???

Sounds like this thread was started because somebody hasn't been able to lick some old wounds. But then... I've never been able to get my tongue anywhere near my ass either!!!

:wtf:

[incapsulated]

45. What is the point of this post?

Dean isn't running for anything anymore. He's taken himself out of consideration for the VP spot. He isn't doing anything harmful to Kerry or the Party, in fact he is working for both. Who cares what Moore thought about him?

Are we on the same team or what? :eyes:

[ibegurpard]

55. so are half the people on this board.

so what?
:shrug:

[BootinUp]

59. This is kinda silly

Moore who has been demonized, decides to do it to someone else. Dean has his faults, but we don't need to trash him here. The primaries are over, people need to get a grip. Maybe we need another unity dinner.

[Cocoa]

60. this shouldn't be taken too seriously

who really cares if Michael Moore thinks Dean is a prick, based on one meeting?

I'm an enthusiastic Kerry supporter, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's kind of a prick too. So what?

[TexasSissy]

62. That was Dean's problem. His unlikeability.

It wasn't the media, it wasn't Kerry. It was that Dean focused on young people (who don't go out of their way to vote) and his unlikeability.

I went to a Dean campaign meeting early on, with the idea of supporting him. I agreed with some of what he and his supporters said (he was on video), but I just didn't like him. Couldn't pinpoint why, exactly.

I think a number of people had that reaction to him. But he had some great ideas, and he shook up the status quo in the party, so he did a lot of good.

[madfloridian]

63. Keep this kicked so everyone can say how they don't like Dean.

Everytime this statement is posted it gives folks a chance to tell how much they don't like him. Then they can vent.

Apparently some have forgotten he is no longer running for office, but they feel better to get their feelings out.

I have noticed that no one starts a thread making fun of the others who have dropped out unless they are fighting about who will be VP.

SO....why is this so important? I don't like a couple of the candidates..I find a couple of them pandering, not really being honest about what they stand for, and not much on personality. I don't see people starting posts about other former candidates, making fun of them and their supporters.

BTW, fighting about the VP thing is about the silliest thing I have ever heard of in my life.

Maybe if people vent enough we won't have to see this again.

[Anwen]

64. This is silly.

He met him for 5 minutes and concluded that he was "kind of a prick" ? No explanation, no reason why? To me, it just seems like a careless statement that people are taking to heart.

Besides, I have heard numerous people say the same thing about Michael Moore. But does that mean we should automatically discredit everything he says? Does being labeled as a "prick" by one person mean that your opinions/messages aren't valid?

Of course not.

[WI_DEM]

65. well, you can't please everybody

but I know you got real pleasure out of posting this so that is all that counts.

[mzmolly]

72. Michael Moore on Dean: "I think Dean's a good guy"

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/15/cnna.moore/

Let's hope this is a thread killa! :P

" It was not meant to be a swipe at Dean. Look, I think Dean's a good guy."

[MessiahRp]

73. Locking

This has become a flame war. Regardless of Michael Moore's initial feelings of Howard Dean, he has since said he thinks he is a good guy.

First impressions do not make a full account of a man. Many Dean supporters now support Kerry, vice versa with Kerry Supporters with Dean. Many Clark supporters support Kerry and Dean, same with Edwards supporters... etc. etc. etc.

So the constant back and forth is pointless because at some point we have to stop and support everyone who is helping our cause.

Rp