Who was more responsible for NAFTA

[aquarius dawning]

Poll question: Who was more responsible for NAFTA

edit: Go ahead and justify your answers those of you who have voted for Hillary in this poll. I dare you to.

[LSK]

1. whos running for President partly on "experience in the White House"?

[aquarius dawning]

10. Who went on larry King and defended that bullshit against Ross Perot in a live debate?

Hillary was just there. She had no say in that legislation which was, incidentally, written before she or her husband stepped foot into the whitehouse (without congressional oversight).

[LSK]

13. OK OK OK I WONT VOTE FOR GORE!!!

YOU SOLD ME!!!!!

[democrattotheend]

2. What did Gore have to do with it?

Was he instrumental in getting it passed? This is an honest question...I was 9 years old at the time and I don't remember.

[LSparkle]

5. He debated Ross Perot on the subject on Larry King Live

It was watched by a LOT of people and many pointed to it as the
reason they chose to support it. A really big mistake on Gore's
part ... right up there with choosing Joementum as his running
mate.

[democrattotheend]

11. Gotcha, thanks.

[LSK]

6. he debated Perot on CNN in favor of it

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Because Gore is given a pass here at DU.

I'm as big a Gore fan as anyone, but the unfair piling on Hillary on this topic is ridiculous.

[kentuck]

3. I know it's not one of the choices but...

NAFTA was the fault of the Republican Party and a Democratic President that signed it.

[Jack Bone]

4. Where's #41?

Let's call out the REAL instigators of this catastrophe!

[aquarius dawning]

19. agreed. but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

[Breeze54]

7. Raygun and Bill Clinton.

HRC didn't have a vote.

[lastliberalintexas]

24. Seriously?

If you'd said Reagan and Bush I, I could have agreed. I wonder why on earth you'd give him a pass and take the opportunity to bash Clinton instead?


God this is like 1998 all over again- you people are turning me into a Clinton defender, and that's not a role I liked then or now. :eyes:

[Breeze54]

34. Because I lived through it and I didn't bash Clinton.. it's a fact!!

He pushed NAFTA through and he screwed poor people with his welfare reform and the homeless.

Look it up.

[lastliberalintexas]

40. I disagreed with the Clinton administration on NAFTA

But I don't think he bears primary responsibility for that Act, he inherited it more than anything- but didn't do anything to oppose it. Bush I should be known as the Father of NAFTA if anyone.


I guess I just don't understand why people on this site go out of their way to criticize Obama or Clinton or any other elected Dem when the repubs provide such large targets instead.

[Breeze54]

43. I included Raygun...(see my post) It was a raygun thing and Clinton pushed it through.

:grr:

Clinton wasn't that great!

He screwed over poor people and workers big time!!

He made workers into poor people!

[Breeze54]

36. Bash? If the shoe fits, wear it. Clinton earned the right. n/t

[Jensen]

8. She meant it when she said "SCREW 'EM"

[guyanakoolaid]

9. Bill Clinton made it a legislative priority. Hillary counts his experience as her own. End of story.

[aquarius dawning]

16. she wasn't the one going on Larry King selling America a pack of lies. that would be Al Gore.

As theVP, he had way more to do with it than her. That anyone can even claim with a straight fucking face that a first lady had more to do with legislation than a Vice President speaks volumes about the honesty and integrity of the Obama camp.

[democrattotheend]

23. So Gore is guilty too. How does that let Hillary off the hook?

Gore's not running for president.

[aquarius dawning]

29. Hillary was never on the hook as far as I'm concerned.

the fact remains, however, that she is being held accountable for something that Al Gore had much more to do with than her. Furthermore, she is condemned and insulted for it while Al Gore walks around as some sort of Democratic party golden god whose endorsement of Barack Obama would be touted highly which seems a bit hypocritical to put it mildly. It just makes no sense. I really never liked Gore because of his role in NAFTA. I voted for him though and was disappointed when he was robbed but I blame him for NAFTA, not Hillary. That debate is why we have NAFTA today as he ended Perot's bid that night as far as I'm concerned. Hillary didn't sell that pack of lies to America, Gore did.

[democrattotheend]

32. I agree that Gore has been overly sainted here

And in much of the progressive community. I think he and Hillary both were helping to sell the Administration's agenda, but if she is going to run on Bill's record she can't let herself off the hook for his accomplishments. Do I think she is the primary person responsible for it? No. But she did write in her book that it was one of the big achievements of his administration, and did not start to really criticize it until she ran for president.

[guyanakoolaid]

26. I'll claim that with a straight face.

If Hillary was not more important to Bill than Al, Bill wouldn't have chosen her to head the single most important legislative priority: health care.

Plus, you gloss over the fact that Hillary credits her experience to Bill's White House. Speaks volumes about the honesty and integrity of the Clinton camp.

[aquarius dawning]

30. We're not talking about HC. We're talking about who had more to do with NAFTA.

Al Gore or Hillary Clinton. Here's the debate: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=al+gore+ross+perot+debate&search_type=
Watch it and figure it out.

[guyanakoolaid]

31. So because Bill and Al had more to do with it she can gloss over her own role?

btw, this IS General Discussion: Primaries... where we discuss Hillary and Obama :eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. So you acknowledge her vastly greater experience? n/t

[guyanakoolaid]

28. Yes. She has a lot more experience championing NAFTA, railroading health care, and voting for war.

[karynnj]

12. Gore did a convincing job defending a postion that he and Bill Clinton were behind

So, it has to be Gore, because WJC was not included.

[Buzz Clik]

14. Al Gore by a country mile.

I listened Gore debate Ross Perot on NAFTA for at least an hour on all aspects of NAFTA, and Gore never hesitated in his complete backing and promotion of NAFTA.

[aquarius dawning]

18. Your honesty and integriy is commendable. I voted for Perot BTW based on his book and that debate.

[Breeze54]

38. Exactly...He and Clinton pushed through Raygun's agenda....

:grr:

[bridgit]

15. G.H.W. Bush, it was his baby

NAFTA

Main article: North American Free Trade Agreement

From left to right: (standing) President Carlos Salinas, President Bush, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney; (seated) Jaime Serra Puche, Carla Hills, and Michael Wilson at the NAFTA Initialing Ceremony, October 1992Bush's administration, along with the Progressive Conservative Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, spearheaded the negotiations of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), which would eliminate the majority of tariffs on products traded among the United States, Canada, and Mexico, to encourage trade amongst the countries.<51> The treaty also protects intellectual property rights (patents, copyrights, and trademarks), and outlines the removal of investment restrictions among the three countries.<51>

This came under heavy scrutiny amongst mainly Democrats, who charged that NAFTA resulted in a loss of US jobs.<10> NAFTA also contained no provisions for labor rights;<52> according to the Bush administration, the trade agreement would generate economic resources necessary to enable Mexico's government to overcome problems of funding and enforcement of its labor laws. Bush needed a renewal of negotiating authority to move forward with the NAFTA trade talks. Such authority would enable the president to negotiate a trade accord that would be submitted to Congress for a vote, thereby avoiding a situation in which the president would be required to renegotiate with trading partners those parts of an agreement that Congress wished to change.<52> While initial signing was possible during his term, negotiations made slow, but steady, progress. President Clinton would go on to make the passage of NAFTA a priority for his administration, despite its conservative and Republican roots — with the addition of two side agreements — to achieve its passage in 1993.<53>

The treaty has since been defended as well as criticized further. The American economy has grown 54% since the adoption of NAFTA in 1993, with 25 million new jobs created; this was seen by some as evidence of NAFTA being beneficial to the US.<54> With talk in early 2008 regarding a possible American withdrawal from the treaty, Carlos M. Gutierrez, a Washington Post staff writer, writes, "Quitting NAFTA would send economic shock waves throughout the world, and the damage would start here at home."<54> But John J. Sweeney of The Boston Globe argues that "the US trade deficit with Canada and Mexico ballooned to 12 times its pre-NAFTA size, reaching $111 billion in 2004."<55>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

[Danger Mouse]

37. And Big Dog still signed it.

[bridgit]

44. People are still of the opinion that it was Clinton's bill; thinking back upon the times...

does not require a crystal ball to understand the pressures Clinton, and indeed all democrats were under. To have scraped NAFTA would have been the end of the known, political, democratic world. I still wish someone would pull up the vid of Bob Dole standing on the steps of congress when by electoral college vote Clinton was declared winner. Popular votes still coming in. Dole not merely promised he threatened that Clinton would be investigated every day of his presidency and you know what?

He was.

In what was among the greatest travesties of American justice, the RW locked this nation into a lose/lose proposition. Within that template it was allowed to go froward, as though Bill Clinton was evil incarnate. Just when one thought it was not possible to get any shittier it did, after his reluctance to remove Saddam per became manifest; and by a neocon agenda we see now as having been signed by all the usual suspects that perpetrated the crime regardless. The war is not Clinton's. Many things were not Clinton's. NAFTA was not Clinton's. But we recognize many of those same tired old RW 'frames' in these tacks today that seek to blame these such woes on Bill, Hillary, or The Clinton's as some organic entity.

Yeah he signed it, but no I'm not going to post a link to OBAMA signing Cheney's energy bill as among his first acts in the senate...cause it's pointless, all of it is pointless. It is pointless because at this point nobody really cares anymore. This has become thee premier online circle-jerk. You can call it "being passionate for my candidate" call it, "this is my chance to vote for a minority candidate nearer my age" call it, "it's been talked to fucking death on purpose and with poisonous, vitriolic acrimony" I care less...

I've called it, "People either already know, or are concerned about doing the research or they are not." for months now. Cause that's what's going down. That and a regurgitation of some really childish stuff. And if you don't know from whence it comes, then I got nothing for you.

The rest are just head games, don't let them kid you, friend

[goldcanyonaz]

17. The Clenis! Everything is about the Clenis.

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. An excellent question. Thank you. n/t

[AllentownJake]

25. Is there a both option?

I mean they were both part of the administration and both did events to talk up the legislation.

BTW Al Gore is not running for President.

I know its hard to explain to you Hillary people what year is however we are in 2008 and not 2000

[Texas Hill Country]

27. WOW, then you must be giving her lots of legislative credit... I thought she just had tea parties..

[blm]

33. GHWBush was - and he directed Bill Clinton to push it for him and Bill directed other Dems

to help him.

[Danger Mouse]

35. Bill Clinton.

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. Bill Clinton who was advised by Hillary or Monica

I can't remember which one.

[tiptoe]

41. Both...NAFTA was a political favor to ex-Walmart Director Hillary and Walmart-shopper Monica. nt

[greendog]

42. Robert Rubin and Bill Clinton

Gore was definitely a salesman for NAFTA during the '92 election. As a member of the Clinton team he supported it but it's probably not fair to say he's "responsible" for it.

HRC was involved in the healthcare push at the same time Rubin and the President were pushing NAFTA. There was actually a bit of a conflict between the economic team and HRC because NAFTA was given priority.

Here's an interview with Robert Rubin where he's questioned about the conflict: (scroll down to the bottom of the page)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/clinton/interviews/rubin2.html

HRC's Senate record on trade is mixed. Politically. trade has become kind of tricky. If a politician supports trade they risk retaliation from the voters. If they vote against it they risk retaliation from the big contributers. HRC has supported the trade deals often enough to maintain cred with her contributers and voted against it enough to have a plausible pro-worker voting record. Personally, I don't trust her.