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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:04 PM
Original message
A House Divided
During our evening meal, my family often discusses the political issues of the day. Yesterday, the topic was if Brack Obama should offer the VP spot to Hillary Clinton. It made for a lively discussion, and I think that a couple of points that were raised might be of interest to some DUers.

My wife and I have four children: two sons (from my first marriage) who are now in their 20s, and who both are again living here before the fall semester, and two daughters, ages 14 and 10. My younger son’s girlfriend is also here 90% of the time.

My wife and my son’s girlfriend both favor Senator Clinton, but are fully prepared to vote for Senator Obama in the fall. My sons, oldest daughter, and I all favor Senator Obama. My youngest daughter also favors Obama, primarily because she wants to be the first woman president, and feels that Hillary Clinton needs to respect this and step aside.

I raised some of the points that had resulted in Seator Ted Kennedy’s endorsing Obama in January: Clinton has high negatives, and her being on the ticket would be enough to rally the republican/conservative forces to come out against her in the fall. I also noted that her campaign had been poorly run, using the article "The Mistakes She Made" in the new TIME to point out five serious errors. (pages 24-25)

One of those errors is illustrated by her saying that if the democrats went by the same rules as the republicans, she would have already won the nomination. But we are not using the same rules as the republicans, I noted.

My younger son asked if I thought the democratic rules were superior? Yes, I do. Then he said that if the democrats do not go by the "winner-take-all" mentality in the primaries, perhaps the same thinking should apply in deciding who should be on the ticket with Obama.

I countered that by pointing out the Obama campaign will be taking a different approach in the fall than the Clinton campaign would have. We will target different states. My son suggested that with Clinton as VP, it would be possible to take many more states. He pointed out that she has wide support in many states across the country, as the primaries have shown.

He then asked me to talk about Jesse Jackson’s run in 1988, and why I still feel that Dukakis treated him poorly. I spoke about how Jesse had energized the party in ’84 and especially in ’88. He had earned the right to be considered for the VP spot with his strong showing. I told of the events in Boston in early July, and how badly that had stung those of us who had worked so hard for Jackson.

My son pointed out that Hillary Clinton has also run a strong campaign, and deserves to be respected by the party. Likewise, her supporters have invested a lot of hard work in her campaign.

I responded by starting to list some of the things that her campaign has done that I have found offensive. He reminded me of how I’ve taught him that often in life, when it comes to the most important things, you have to be willing to make sacrifices. In fact, he said, I have told him that it is often important to sacrifice your anger, in order to reach a higher goal.

One of the best things about the Obama campaign is that it has provided a lot of parents the opportunity to listen to their children, who have become young adults and who are preparing to vote in their first presidential election. I am thankful for that.









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myrna minx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. Aw, I'd love to vote for your daughter.
:-)
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Some day,
you just might have that opportunity. And although I support Obama, I do -- as a human being, as a democrat, and as a father -- thank Senator Clinton for opening that door.
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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wonderful story.
I have also had interesting conversations with my three voting age children. It makes me very proud that they see a bigger picture and can articulate the strengths and weaknesses of both candidates and of a unity ticket. Not a republican in the bunch.

Kudos to you and your family.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. One of the benefits
of coming from a family of democrats is that children learn to think for themselves. That is in stark contrast to republican families, where the father tends to decide what everyone is suposed to think.
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iiibbb Donating Member (658 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. That is not my experience or upbringing, thank you.
Republican family (although I am unaffiliated).

It's nice that you have a family that can talk, but I know plenty of Democrat families who aren't quite so egalitarian.

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. My Objection To Clinton As VP
First, though she has won races, delegates and support her negatives remain high, secondly I believe she and Bill (proximity to the campaign) will galvanize the Cons into action, they will become a rallying point. Further, she and Obama have very disparate view on strategy and how and where to campaign and I think it would be hard for her and her team to take direction from his team and him.

Lastly, as it is obviously destiny that your girl become the 1st female pres., you should inform team Hillary.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I have mixed feelings
about the possibility of Clinton being offered the VP spot. I think that it is good that we can have open discussions about that possibility, though. And while the decision isn't something that we will really have much influence on, it would be great if people on DU would engage in more civil discussions of what options there are to include the majority of people in supporting the democratic ticket in the fall.
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Shoelace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. new Quinnipiac poll shows 60% of Dems want Clinton as VP
By a 60 - 33 percent margin, Democrats say Obama should pick Clinton as his vice presidential running mate.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1177

Thanks for your post, great family there. I admire and respect both candidates and think that neither could win without the other.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Thanks for linking
the poll. That's a pretty impressive number of people in favor of a unity ticket.
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Texas Hill Country Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. yeah, it really is... and I would bet that it is really higher than that because some answering
Edited on Thu May-15-08 02:35 PM by Texas Hill Country
that poll probably dont want to settle for less than Prez.

But if it were to happen in reality... I would guess as high as 70-75% would answer in the affirmative.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. A Third Reason
Location. I cannot believe that New York would vote for McSame with or without Hillary on the ticket. He could use someone from a swing state.
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4themind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
37. It's not my favorite idea at this point
It's not always about pure numbers of prior support, some will leave regardless (more I hope would stay) but I don't think it should be automatically assumed that adding the two cmapaign votes together will occur. The question is how much overlap will there be versus, how well these two candidates can share policy positions, but manage their vastly different tones on how to implement them, and to be honest I haven't seen much that gives me confidence in that. The very first thing before hillary is even considered though is that she will need to give a reasonable explanation of her "CiC threshold" comment first, that seemes plausible and logical to obama, that's just the basics. You can't have a V.P. that's openly stated that they don't believe you are QUALIFIED to be Commander in Chief, a "critical criterion". It's not a matter about obama holding/dropping a grudge in my view, that's a fundendemental disagreement. "If obama's one V.P. doesn't think he's qualified...why should you?" are what the ads will say if she doesn't have a reasonable explanation for it. Even hillary's voters would need to be convinced of this in my view (if they considered it important in their decision), putting her on the ticket in and of itself may not necessarily allay even these voters.


Especially with the "power behind the scenes" ethos of Dick Cheney in re-defining the VP, I think it's important for people to know unequivocally what the roles are, what ever they may be. Especially in this new 24/7 media, where reporters will be looking to push the narrative that there are conflicts between the two candidates. Also,Bill clinton alone may really hinder this effort. In his own wife's campaign his demeanor and remarks at some events really did not help her cause, as admitted by her staff and hillary herself(the phone call she gave him to essentially "be quiet" about the tuzla story). It may be a problem regardless, but as we've already learned in this campaign, just association from many many years ago, let alone from as close as the V.P.'s spouse


There are also independents out there, who may be decisive even with the levels of democratic turnout, and whom we will be competing directly with John McCain for, so any decision will need to be cognizant of them, and a clear message (and one that is closer to Obama's message in my view) will be key to taking away the "life blood"of McCain who already has a relative dearth of base support. But in the end, I want to keep my mind open to all ideas and candidates.

P.S. please forgive the grammar mistakes,I didn't have much time to proof-read this before class

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. I guess the question is should Obama stick with the game plan
or sacrifice some of it to calculation. Overall, I'm glad I'm not in his shoes.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. A number of people
have made comparisons to the choices that JFK was facedwith in 1960. I think that is an interesting way to view it.

No matter who he decides upon, there are going to be unhappy people. Thus, I agree with you in regard to not wanting to be in his shoes!
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. Would Kathleen Sebelius as VP
appeal to the same demographic as Hillary?

If so then there would be the bonus of her potentially appealing to moderate Republicans too.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Great question.
From everything I've seen, Kathleen Sebelius would be a good choice. I'm interested in other DUers' opinions on this?

Thanks for raising an important point.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Some of them no, but maybe enough of those
that voted for her to see a woman on the ticket in their lifetime than might succeed. I like her (Sebelius) as a choice.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. A While Back I Suggested He Put A Woman On The Ticket
I got jumped on all over the place. To me, though, it would be for the same reason you stated, targeting a demographic. Sebelius also brings actual executive experience with her.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. I remember that
very clearly. A number of people attacked you for expressing your opinion. It wasn't simply that they disagreed with you: they attacked you as a person.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Interesting That Many People Now Think It's A Good Idea
The female demographic is hugely important, over 50% of the voters are female, yet there is too mush bad blood, IMHO, for Obama and HRC to be on the ticket together. A woman VP would be historic and open the door for 2016.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
9. a real "house divided" would be if you raised a McCain supporter.
sounds like you had a much more civil discussion than most of what I have seen in GDP, but I think there is something about anonymity of a forum like this that can sometimes bring out the worst in people. Some of the most troubling things I have ever seen on DU have been in the last couple of days with the bashing of WV voters. The stereotyping I have seen in the last couple of days has made me wince. I thought we were better than that.

Anyhoo, Thanks again for sharing.

corkhead
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. I have a few
relatives in the extended family that are likely McCain supporters. I sometimes wonder what terrible things happened to them in their lives?

It is interesting to me to think about the discussions/debates that I have with family and friends who are Clinton supporters. None are of the nature that we witness on this forum.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
13. Whether it's Jackson or Hillary, the VP slot isn't "won." It's not the consolation prize for 2nd
place.

Choosing a VP is a chance to strengthen and broaden the ticket (geographically, ideologically, ethnically, or an other bases). A VP shouldn't cost the ticket votes or distract from the candidate, and -- ideally -- the VP will bring a swing state into the fold.

The very things which make Hillary the 2nd place finisher would make her a poor VP choice. She is very inspiring of strong feelings -- strong positive feelings in her supporters and strong negative feelings in others. This would cost the ticket votes (and, yes, she would gain the ticket votes too, but other VP candidates would appeal to the same demographics as Hillary but would come to the ticket without Hillary's baggage). She is identified with Illinois (we win it with or without her), New York (we win it with or without her), and Arkansas (we win it with her at the top of the ticket, but we lose it with her as VP and without her as VP, and if putting her on the ticket as VP might possibly bring Arkansas into the fold, then Clark as VP would do so as well). She doesn't bring a swing state into the fold to a greater or lesser degree than other potential VP candidates.

My top two choices in this election were Kucinich and Edwards. I also think that they don't bring enough to the ticket to make it into the top three VP candidates for closest consideration. Just as I must content myself with a VP who I like less that Kucinich or Edwards, so must Hillary and her supporters content themselves with a VP other than Hillary. It is for the good of the ticket, which is -- ultimately -- for the good of the country.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. I'd love to see
John Edwards as Attorney General. I think that would be one of the most positive things to happen in this country in more than 40 years.
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Stop Cornyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. This we strongly agree upon.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. It is a good time
to be thinking about it, too.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. charming
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. It's a good feeling
when you see your children becoming thoughtful adults.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. its a surprise whent they get old enough to call you and don't need money
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. heh
nice

rec'd
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Thank you.
Keep up your good work on DU. You are appreciated.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I'm a bit rattled today
and yesterday . . . I've developed a great deal of affection for my choice in this election, and for her supporters as well.

The human mind is so imperfect and contradictory. It's frustrating.

But, thanks. It's been my pleasure, of course, to advocate here.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. Very nice post.
Edited on Wed May-14-08 04:11 PM by Window
:thumbsup:

Your daughter sounds like a real winner.

I have eight grandchildren, five of whom are able to vote and it's great to see the interest, and the conversations are amazing.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
32. H2O Man's daughter for president! I will be a supporter. :-) n/t
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. Waterman/Kennedy 2040.
I see RFK Jr. has a son your daughter's age.

:thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Ha!
I will mention that to her.

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-14-08 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. "it is often important to sacrifice your anger, in order to reach a higher goal."
Well said. This is so true and so challenging to do.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-15-08 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. As individuals,
and as a party, I think that is essenial for us to move ahead.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-16-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yes, it is essential.
I hope we can come together soon and focus on the task ahead, of getting the Dems in and changing the reigning injustice to justice.
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