Newsweek: "If the president plays it right, he can wrap up the race"

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

Advantage, Bush
The White House can control the agenda in ways that Kerry cannot. If the president plays it right, he can wrap up the race

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5625195/site/newsweek/

Aug. 6 - Republicans are better at the game of politics. Take this week's elevated terror alert. Whether you think it was warranted or not, it's a win-win for George W. Bush. He says we're fighting terrorists in Iraq so we don't have to fight them here in our country. Yet we're told to prepare for an attack that could come any time and exceed the 9/11 toll in death and destruction.

The subliminal message of the Bush campaign is that a vote for John Kerry is a vote for Osama bin Laden. You can buy T-shirts that say that. They're advertised on the web site of the Washington Times, a conservative newspaper owned by the Unification Church. Bush wants us to believe that terrorists the world over are cringing at the thought of four more years of his tough-guy policies.

If there's no terrorist attack between now and the election, Bush can claim he kept us safer. If there is an attack on our soil of the magnitude of 9/11, most analysts agree that the American public would rally around the president at least in the short term. Either way, Bush wins the election.

There are other ways Bush can burnish his leadership credentials. Rumors that Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge is burned out and looking to leave the administration could open the door for a quick elevation of the man who personifies leadership to Americans of all political stripes, former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani. Bush and Giuliani campaigning together on a pledge to keep the country safe could erase whatever gains Kerry makes as a challenger during a time of war. Some Democrats still believe Bush could replace Vice President Dick Cheney after the convention, say in late September, which would be so unprecedented in presidential politics that everybody would accept it was Cheney's choice for health reasons. If Bush named John McCain as his running mate, game over.

[liberalpragmatist]

1. She's right

She's basically saying that BushCo. can control the race in ways we can't and they're not above manipulation and being crooked.

People on DU tend to give Clift a lot of shit and call her a mediawhore. Personally I've never minded her. And I think she's got an excellent point in the article.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

6. That's true...that's why I copied & pasted without comment.

It's a very matter-of-fact article that says "this is what he's doing, this is what he MIGHT do between now and November, and regardless of what he does it most certainly IS a high-stakes game and he will play both sides of the coin to make sure he wins."

The article doesn't have a tone of "approval"...she just says that Republicans will do whatever they have to do to win...everything is fair game:

"Republicans are better at the game of politics. Take this week's elevated terror alert. Whether you think it was warranted or not, it's a win-win for George W. Bush. He says we're fighting terrorists in Iraq so we don't have to fight them here in our country. Yet we're told to prepare for an attack that could come any time and exceed the 9/11 toll in death and destruction."

[lancdem]

19. She makes some good points

but I don't think Bush can wrap up the race. No incumbent president in the last 50 years who was this vulnerable won. Plus, there's no way John McCain will be VP.

[olddem43]

35. Don't count on McCain saying NO. This is his last shot

at national office. He will be about 72 in 4 years. The only reason he would kiss up to Bush after being screwed by him in 2000 is if he were guaranteed a cabinet post or VP whenever Cheney abdicates, either before or after the election.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

40. The McCain-Giuliani-Cheney triad is anybody's guess...

...right up until the election. Cheney may say "I'm not going anywhere" and the other two may chime in with "If nominated I will not run, if elected I will not serve," but if we've learned anything from this administration, it's "believe it when you see it."

[DaveinMD]

42. McCain

just may get a high cabinet spot in a Kerry administration. Its the way Kerry will appear bipartisan. Shrub is not offering anything to McCain. He hates him too much. The Guliani thing is more likely.

[DaveinMD]

2. I don't buy it

Kerry isn't ceding this issue one bit. In fact, he's making the argument that he'd be better at fighting the war on terror. Republicans can make all the claims they want, but the public has already decided they don't like Bush. Kerry just needs to convince the public they can trust him. Once he does, game over. We win.

[fr3]

11. I wish I shared your optimism

If Clif is worried so am i.

It looks like the repugs are bringing out weapons we didnt know they had. This new anti-kerry in vietnsam thing is bothering me a lot. I had a conservative guy at work ask me about the "self-inflicted wound" and I couldnt answer him.

I tried to tell him about the XO who is retracting his answer but that doesn't undo the doctor who said Kerry wasn't really injured.

And no matter what I say, my second brother slams we by saying kerry was only in vietnam for 130 days. This is a problem becaise my older brother spent 2 years in vietnam and is really upset about what happened with kerry later.

I thout we had it in the bag but this latest thing is making me worried. We cant let * win again but what do I tel lmy family and freinds?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. Just Ask Your Co Worker If Bush Really Earned His Silver Star

NT

[fr3]

24. But * didnt make his natrional guard time an issue

these guys keep saying that kerry made his time in Vietname an issiue and some of them were inm Vietnam for 1 or 2 years.

Can you help me say what to say so they don't keep bringing it up? I want them to know how bad * is, but they just chant "Bush-bashing" and then they talk about how small a time kerry was in vietnam.

[lancdem]

28. They sound like people who wouldn't like Kerry anyway

Don't worry about it.

[fr3]

30. I *have* to worry about it

Am I going to let them say I am wrong?

Even if they dont like kerry I have to defend his position. I am worried there might be some truth to these allegations and that makes our position hard.

Kerry knows how much we need France and Germany and brussels to support us. If * gets in again we wont have anyone.

I need some proof that kerry didn't lie about his metals. And he spent so little time that I can't convince people that he really did anything.

Can someone give me proof against the lies they talked about today?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. Brussels Seceded From Belgium

NT

[lunarboy13]

136. Time served...

Whenever someone questions the amount of time John Kerry -- or anyone else for that matter -- spent in Vietnam, one should remember that many, MANY young men died their first week in Vietnam. Does serving only one week diminish their service and sacrifice for their country? How about the men who were wounded their first day in country? Does their not having been in Vietnam for a full year diminish their service and sacrifice? NO! To say anything other than that is unpatriotic.

John Kerry served as a Swift-Boat Captain and was wounded three separate times. Once a serviceman was wounded three times, they no longer had to serve in country. Further, this was an awakening for John Kerry. He had doubts about the Vietnam War before he went, but he volunteered anyway. Once he was in the Navy, he could have served as a line officer on a larger ship, but he choose to go into Vietnam. He choose to be a Swift-Boat Captain, which was an extremely dangerous assignment. Once he was given the opportunity to leave Vietnam, he did. But not to save himself from further harm or injury, rather, to try and make a difference in bringing the war to a close. He protested the war he voluteered to fight. He saw first-hand many of the attrocities that have become part of the factual history of the Vietnam War. These attrocities are only disputed by the Swift-Boat vets who seem to live in some kind of 1970s Nixon-themed fantasy world.

Also, on the point of medals. You do not nominate yourself for a medal. John Kerry was nominated for his medals by others who witnessed his actions. Further, he volunteered to serve his country, fighting a war he did not fully believe in. But, regardless of his own convictions about the war, he believed in his men, protected them with his life, and even killed another human in the service of his country. The republicans say this is yet another instance of his "flip-flopping". But Bush was doing the same dance. He was for the Vietnam War, and yet he did everything in his (and his father's) power to not serve his country in Vietnam. Which flip-flopper would you choose? The coward who couldn't even serve in the Texas National Guard without going AWOL? The man who panicked when he was told America was under attack? Or would you pick the man who turned his boat TOWARDS his attackers, beached it right in front of an enemy who possessed an RPG, lept from the boat and hunted him down?

So yes, John Kerry served 4 1/2 months in Country. But he saw as much action as many who served a full year and was wounded three times to show for it. How many months did Bush serve in country?

And when republican operatives try to discredit the military service of John Kerry as a negative way of supporting the re-election of "W", they make "W"'s military service a primary and legitimate issue to be investigated and discussed with the voting public. George Bush does not want this fight.

[lancdem]

23. The doctor who said Kerry wasn't injured

isn't the one who treated him. The ad is bullshit.

[MoonRiver]

31. Give me a break.

You're hanging out with a lot of deluded folks. "Kerry was only in Vietnam for 130 days"!!! Ask him how long * was in Vietnam and what happened to AWOL's national guard records during his "lost months"!!

Repukes will keep spinning their lies, ad nauseum. If you choose to fall for them each time, I worry about your mental well being.

[fr3]

36. I tried that

They say that * didn't pretend to be in Vietnam.

But I have friends who were in Vietname for a few years and thet are mad at kerry for being there for such a short time.

I know the VC war was wrong, but I need a good argument. The fact that * wasn't there isn;t strong enugh.

We are claiming that the kerry time in the VC war was good, but his arguing aginast it was good, but he spent to littl etime in it that he wansnt really "there."

I think it matters. I can tell my brotheres what happened, but I am having a problem. Can someone point me to where the lies are so I can nail them (hehe I alwaus LOVE to nail my stupid conservative brothers)?

[MoonRiver]

37. Kerry served honorably and received medals of valour as a result.

Unless the military openly disputes his record I think this is a bogus and dead issue. Perhaps you wish it to be otherwise.

[fr3]

41. No!!! I just need good arguments!!!

I know kerry did well and I want hin to be our president, but the time oin vietnam is short and I am getting it from all sides.

I was hoping someone could give me the ammo to shut up the repugs and the vets who are attacking me.

I think the 130 days thing is the biggest problem.

[flaminbats]

45. here is the ammo...

Kerry did more for his country in Vietnam during a 6 month period, than most do in a lifetime. He wasn't just allowed to leave or just given three purple hearts and a bronze star, he earned this by risking his neck repeatedly for others on the battlefield..

But most Repukes think they own our servicemen and women, and that this service should continue endlessly without compensation until they are crippled or die.

[msanger]

54. 130 plus the time he was in hospitals

I don't know this for at fact, but it seems to me that if you get three purple hearts, that means you've been wounded two or three times. it seems to me that if you get wounded, you get sent to a hospital to recover.

maybe the 130 days don't include the time in a hospital.

But seriously, I'd reply by saying "130 days in vietnam and getting three purple hearts versus 130 days in alabama and getting three hickies from ambitious secretaries."

[flaminbats]

43. 3 purple hearts..and he wasn't really there??

On March 13, 1969 was honored with a bronze star. Usually earning a bronze star means you did more than enough for your country in war, and you can return home.

Admiral Zumwalt himself signed Kerry's Bronze Star citation, which read:

For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engage in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuwan Provence, Republic of Vietnam on 13 March, 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY while serving as an Officer-in-Charge of Inshore Patrol Craft 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA LORDS operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY in the right arm. In addition all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the riverbanks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY's calmness professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Lieutenant (junior grade) KERRY is authorized to wear the Combat V

unlike Bush, Kerry has nothing to hide as far as his service record is concerned!

[fr3]

44. We have to be honest here....

That argument won;t work. *'s record isnt front and center. At worst he didnt work all the days as a rear gueard guy (and if we say somthing bad about that then we are knocking the National Guard).

But I am looking for semething CONCRETE to explain the only 4 months and what the othet Vets said about the self-iflicted woiunds.

I need facts and good arguments, and the other side is too smart to let me get away with "* wasnt there".

The vets are really a ptoblem because they were there for so much longer. 4 months is so short. WHAT CAN I SAY?????

I can'tr keepsaying * wasn;t there. I need to cut shrubby to the roots.

[MoonRiver]

47. Do you know how to use the "spell check" function here?

If not, you should inform yourself. :eyes:

[flaminbats]

49. nice try...

I need facts and good arguments, and the other side is too smart to let me get away with "* wasnt there".

I gave you facts and good arguments. If Republicans don't support our service men and women enough to give them honorable discharge after earning three purple hearts and a bronze star, then what would stop them from shitting on our disabled vets or spitting on those getting permanently screwed now by shell shock and problems caused by exposure to depleted uranium.

Why argue with fucks who only care about themselves?

[fr3]

50. I need help here

I gave you facts and good arguments
I went back and looked at your posts and I didn't see anything that helps my argument. Your post of the record is what is in dispute. It also doesn't say why Kerry could be there for so little time.

Did I miss something?
I need some HELP here! This isn't high school -- it is REAL LIFE!!! It is KILLING ME that JFK was so much less than Dean. I am trying to keep shrub out of the white horse and all I get from those I need to help me is platitudes.
Your flippamce is what is going to condemn us to 4 more years of chimpy.

[flaminbats]

55. I see...

Am I expecting too much from our elected leaders?

Is it wrong to expect the disabled vets and those who serve their country to be treated with respect from Republicans? Is it now flippancy to expect Bush to make his service records public just as John Kerry has?

Or are you defending a double standard? I have not heard you mention what factors will decide your vote, or why you have not criticized Bush's records..some of which were released by the Pentagon.

[fr3]

59. I am not dis-ing you

but you said:
"Is it wrong to expect the disabled vets and those who serve their country to be treated with respect from Republicans? Is it now flippancy to expect Bush to make his service records public just as John Kerry has?

Or are you defending a double standard? I have not heard you mention what factors will decide your vote, or why you have not criticized Bush's records..some of which were released by the Pentagon. "

I have been saying that attacking Chimpy's record won't feed the bulldog. I think you are making fun of me.

I will vote for Kerry to keep chimpy away. But I need some help in telling my family who is on the fence to vote the only way that is right.

But no one here is giving me any information on the small time in vietnam and the accusations about Kerry injuring himself and asking for the purple heart. The new stuff from the other vets bothers me (we should have chosen dean).

I am asking for help and all I get is that chimpy wasn't in Vietnam. If you haven't listened to the repugs, they say that it is kerry who makes this an issue,

I NEED HELP IN TELLING THEM OFF. And "they won't vote for us" is no help.

I will run this through the spell check since everyone is so upset about my spelling.

[flaminbats]

62. actually I have posted my opinions on most issues in this forum..

Telling someone off will not win their votes. Telling someone why John Kerry is more qualified to be President than Bush might.

If you want more of your questions answered regarding John Kerry in Vietnam, I suggest you read Tour of Duty by Douglas Brinkley. This book is very detailed, and clearly lists its sources in the bibliography.

If you are truly interested in Kerry's service, how he earned his medals, or how long he was in the service..this is a must read!

Don't let the stuff from these other vets bother you, this is just politics. Remember those vets are being well paid to participate in these anti-Kerry ads. And as we all know, the truth often becomes twisted in Presidential elections!

[jab105]

85. Go here for proof...

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

And check out other articles and commentary on DU...

[MoonRiver]

51. I believe I know what we're dealing with here.

Am I wrong?

[xfundy]

83. Me too.

I'm kinda wondering what the letters before the "3" stand for.

[fr3]

99. hahahaha

aihchee wawa!!

Those are the initials of my age old Dec-10 signon from the '80s!!

It is NOT from any sort of Right wing websight!

But its pretty funny!

[thebigidea]

100. But gee, what a coincidence that you mention RW "websights," eh?

I mean, nobody even mentioned them. Gosh.

[fr3]

103. OK, ya got the drop on me.

>>""But gee, what a coincidence that you mention RW "websights," eh?"

I have no idea what that means but heck, if it floats your boat, then you can refer back to this post in saying that I said or did whatever, OK.

[thebigidea]

105. Or you could just actually read the responses to the lies you're spreadin

Would it be too much to ask to visit www.mediamatters.org and read a few pages that disembowel the warmed over O'Neill hogwash you're trying to serve up?

Or will you change the subject and start attacking his wife instead?

[snippy]

123. Give up on your brothers and the other assholes you are talking about.

They are ignorant steaming piles of shit who will always vote for other ignorant steaming piles of shit. There always will be such voters. Ignore them. Spend your time discussing politics with people who do not jump at the chance to believe hate filled lies from the Bush campaign.

[MoonRiver]

116. Well I'm guessing the whole thing is an illiteration for "free"?

But that doesn't quite work. Why am I not surprised! :D

[Chelsea Patriot]

134. Yeah, It's all so overwhelmingly obvious.

Desperation is so sad.

Almost as sad as being too lazy to hit "Check Spelling" before clicking "Post Message".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

113. Have You Ever Met Someone From The Other Side?

I think we have been infiltrated....

[MoonRiver]

117. I've dealt with them on boards for years. Some are better disguised

than others. Or maybe its a desperation thing now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. "Knocking The National Guard"

Todays National Guard is not you father's National Guard.... It is common knowledge that the National Guard was a safe, legal way to avoid combat in Viet Nam if you were fortunate enough to get in and fortune was often a function of having the right connections....


Don't believe me... Less than 1% of National Guard saw combat in Viet Nam....

[tibbiit]

124. then you should inform yourself like the rest of us did

He was in Viet Nam for TWO tours.
The last one was 4 months. He got to go cause he had been wounded 3 times. THat was the rules. Medals were given out by Others, not the one recieving.
tib

[saracat]

109. Kerry did two tours.Why does everyone only count one?

[Catt03]

38. Reframe the argument

tell them about what Kerry plans to do about Iraq, Homeland Security,veteran's benefits.

If you must got to the Swiftvet defense, know their history and Kerrys.

The best thing we can all do is be informed....very informed.

[blm]

73. Kerry spent his FIRST tour of duty on a ship off the coast of Vietnam.

His SECOND tour he asked for swift boat duty IN Vietnam. All of his wounds were SHRAPNEL wounds. You can't self-inflict shrapnel wounds.

At least noone with half a brain would even try.

[The Wielding Truth]

53. Fool me once

I think the public is finally aware at the Rovesk way we have been played and we would be fooled again.

[Bluebear]

3. Today's revelation that the latest "terror alert" was suspect should do it

No jobs, outsourcing, death and despair on every newscast, I don't see how Bush can recover. On the other hand I put nothing past them.

[Tom Rinaldo]

10. It just is possible

That terrorists will strike in the U.S. again fairly soon. They certainly struck Madrid. They planned 9/11 for three years prior to doing that. Bush plays politics with Terror all the time, but we have real enemies also. More now that Bush invaded Iraq. I haven't read the Newsweek article yet, very possible Bush's intrinsic advantages are overstated. But they are not nonexistent. This election is not a slam dunk for Kerry. It is foolish to think that way.

[Bluebear]

16. I don't take this as a slam dunk for Kerry

On the other hand, I am preparing myself for the worst while hoping for the best. But at this point 'the terrorists' can't possibly send a clear message who "they" want to win. The fact that this latest terror alert was manipulated does disgust me, however.

[Tom Rinaldo]

34. In Madrid they had a shot at changing Government Policy

In the U.S, I think they only want a shot at us. In the larger world they hope to peel off U.S. Allies, but they really don't care who wins here in November. The Elections could just make a dramatic back drop for a Terror strike, throwing some chaos into our political system. I've said it over and over, we have to keep hammering Bush on how he has NOT adequately prepared this country against attack, circumstances will not give us the luxury of making that case AFTER an attack, not immediately, it would look way too partisan. Figure 2 to 3 months minimum after a major attack before the public would be ready to listen to Democrats blast this Administration over mishandling domestic security. Now is the time to blast them.

[fr3]

93. Madrid caved

You said "In the U.S, I think they only want a shot at us. In the larger world they hope to peel off U.S. Allies, but they really don't care who wins here in November. The Elections could just make a dramatic back drop for a Terror strike, throwing some chaos into our political system. I've said it over and over, we have to keep hammering Bush on how he has NOT adequately prepared this country against attack, circumstances will not give us the luxury of making that case AFTER an attack, not immediately, it would look way too partisan. Figure 2 to 3 months minimum after a major attack before the public would be ready to listen to Democrats blast this Administration over mishandling domestic security. Now is the time to blast them.'"

So you say Madrid was smarter than us?

[thebigidea]

94. more bullshit... the elections reflected the will of the people

Aznar was a lying sack of shit that tried to blame the attacks on ETA and was trounced with good reason. Most Spaniards despised King George's war, and the good guys won.

That little scenario must trouble you, I know. How horrible it would be if the people got to pick their President!

And you do know that Al-Qaeda prefers Bush for President, yes? If they wanted to "disrupt the elections" as Ridge claims, they'd want to do it to stop Kerry from winning.

Funny how Al-Qaeda and Bush, Inc. have goals that always seem to coincide, huh?

[saracat]

110. Anybody is smarter than us!

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

15. The issue...the ONLY issue...is "how smart are the American people?"

We discuss these issues on DU...very well educated people of all ages and backgrounds, who have done their homework and generally don't make off-the-cuff, misinformed statements...and are quickly engaged in a debate if they do...but what about the people who don't post here, who never pick up a book and get their news from Fox?

I don't think the article challenges the reader to vote on whether Bush will win, or the degree to which his tactics will be successful.

Think of Jerry Lewis. I saw him on TV once many years ago and he told a story about sitting down with the management of the Muscular Dystrophy telethons. He said "When I die, USE IT. Milk it for all it's WORTH. Make it the biggest telethon EVER."

It's the same with Bush. Attack or no attack, he will milk either scenario. All that matters is winning, and if he gets four more years, good luck nailing him on "an impeachable offense."

Kerry and Edwards don't want to play "dirty politics," and that is admirable. There is also the old adage "eat or be eaten." LOOK at recent photos of Bush. He's drugged, he's crazy, his behavior is erratic...he's going for broke. Time for Kerry to read "The Art of War," or re-read it if it's been a while.

[fr3]

60. The REAL issue is how dumb are the american people

I guess they were dumb before and they might be dumber now.

Look at the smear campaign now.

Michael Moore is right -- Americans are the stupidest people on the planet.

I think it is great we aren't part of that. We can only grow that we see what we need to grow up.

For some of us it is easier since we are newer.

But either way, we have to not be dumb.

I am running this through the spell check now since I was yelled at so much about my spelling.

[thebigidea]

64. oh yeah, when the hell did Moore say that? And in what CONTEXT?

Funny, googling it only turns up entirely right wing sources.

[fr3]

68. OK, your right

But I heard him say it on ET or something. With my own ears.

I am not a "source" but I heard it and agree.

i am sorry I can't do better. But he is right. We are so parochial.

All the other countries know what is happening in the rest of the world. We just look at the latest car pursuit.

We are just as dumb as Mr. Moore says we are. But some of us can work to be smarter. This is what the repugs don't expect.

[flaminbats]

69. in the movie Moore says the American people are smart...

but our leaders are stupid. You must have a misunderstanding.

[thebigidea]

70. Sorry, I'm not buying your vague John Teshy memory.

If you're going to use such nonsense, at least back it up.

"We are just as dumb as Mr. Moore says we are."

Can I not include myself in your "royal we" usage? I don't remember signing any forms including me in this grouping, or allowing you to be a spokesperson.

[fr3]

78. OK, you're right

No one heard Moore say that.

No Righties are pissed off.

It never happened, since there are no sources.

And in November of next year, you will continue to say "but, there was NO SOURCE URL."

The distance between your ability to see and what is really happening is like some sort of Sci Fi movie.

Yeah, we have a great chance with mental giants like you at the helm.

No wonder the FReepers are so happy. They have you as an a example of the best we have to offer here.

Thanks to you and your ilk, we can look forward to another 4 years of the Fascists of the Repugs.

[thebigidea]

80. well, I was kind of hoping that you would lead us to freedom

Now hurry up and take us to the Promised Land, where "lose" is "loose" and the birds sing sweet songs that all kinda end up sounding the same in the end.

The FReepers are happy? Well, I'm sure you have links handy to back that up, huh? Not like the Moore stuff.

Which is a complete fucking lie, by the way. He never said that on Entertainment Tonight or any other tv show. Only RW rags and free republic circulate that line, which is taken from a piece in the English tabloid the Mirror, without context.

Are you telling me you hear voices reading English tabloids in your brain now? Along with the gallery of talking rabbits?

You're caught in a blatant lie, and I'm sure its not the first time. Just admit it and stop dodging.

[flaminbats]

86. What does Michael Moore have to do with Kerry winning or losing?

Why are you calling Moore's movie Science Fiction?

Sure Moore did some grandstanding, but so did Bush..Rush, Cheney, and any other political person. This doesn't make facts in Moore's movie less true...or what isn't reported on Fox News more false.

Republicans don't like to see Bush's limo pounded by rotten tomatoes, or Bush shaking hands with the Saudi prince. They hate the truth, and this is why Republican voters are now declining in numbers.

[acmavm]

4. I don't believe this for a minute. People are beginning to understand that

bush* is the problem. Maybe he's being handled by some real bad rabbits, or maybe he's Satan himself, who knows? But it's not what he can do, we already know what he's up to and what he will do. He's demonstrated his bitter, ignorant, hard-hearted, petty meanness. He has alienated most countrie's. He's just an ugly specimen. I don't think anything short of getting Jesus Christ himself will pull his butt out of the fire, and that might not even do it.

[Cha]

8. Jesus wouldn't do it!

[Not Me]

22. I agree...

If this country sustains a major attack before the elections, yes the county will muster up the courage to dig deep and help the victims, and vow to find the perpetrators. But, it could be seen as an attack brought on by bush (Bring It On) and clearly a statement that we are not safer...as he has been touting lately.

[fr3]

39. so you want an attack to get Kerry elected?

I want him elected too -- I don't think we can take another 4 years of the selected * but an attack??

I have aquaintances who died on 9/11 and I think they will see your post to use against us.

[MoonRiver]

46. I fear you have ulterior motives for asserting such things.

you said: "I HAVE ACQUAINTANCES WHO DIED ON 9/11 AND I THINK THEY WILL SEE YOUR POST TO USE AGAINST US."???

Are you a recent immigrant, or, I hesitate to venture a guess. Actually I posted something and took it out. But I have alerted.

[fr3]

52. No

You said: "Are you a recent immigrant, or, I hesitate to venture a guess. Actually I posted something and took it out. But I have alerted."

what does that mean? Do you have a problem with recent immigrants? is this the america I heard so much about? I can't have an opinion unless I check with a "real american" to see if it is OK?

I had heard so much good things about this forum. But I just see racists and narrowists.

Do I get to alert against you? Or is there a special thing or time I need before I get to be those who really get to talk (as opposed to those who might be "recent immigrants".)

I am new to this so I dont know how to alert. Or else I would alet on you for being such a racists.

[MoonRiver]

56. I'm just curious. No offense, but you seem, well, unusual.

You do not use correct English, especially regarding spelling. Also, it appears that you are itching to discredit John Kerry's military records, all protestations on your part to the contrary. If I'm wrong I apologize. Those are simply my impressions.

[fr3]

63. Thank you

I have been very much reprimanded on my spelling. In fact, I just promised to do the spell check button, but I didn't because I promised then forgot (I hope they don't think bad for me for that).

Ahh, well.

I am not itching to discredit John Kerry's records. It is that I have heard about them and I can't fight back since the new group seems so sincere and there have been no strong replies to what they say.

I am looking for specific things to say against the John Kerry discreditors to tell them they are lying. But no one has given me anything.

They say John Kerry shot a teenager in the back and that got his silver star.

They say John Kerry shot a rock on the beach and hurt himself and only needed a little adhesive bandage. This one bothers me because the doctor who put the bandage on is the one doing the saying.

They say that John Kerry was in a firefight for the other purple hearts. But his fellows say that it didn't happen.

They have testimony from people who have been on TV and radio. If this was fake, wouldn't those people be sued for lying?

We cannot put our heads in the sand. i have many people (as I have said in other posts) who are asking about whether John Kerry did what he did and how he got out so fast.

I NEED HELP WITH THESE THINGS!!! It s embarrassing to sit and say "well, the State Department said it was OK".

Thank you all of you

[flaminbats]

67. show me the sources...

do you have links to a bibliography?

Telling lies is easy, but hearing the truth can be hell.

Did you know Bush hired those terrorists to fly into the World Trade Center? Did you know that Bush has made bin Laden his informal intelligence adviser? Or did you know Bush raped Elizabeth Dole, and is having an affair with Zell Miller's wife?

That's what some veterans say! :evilfrown:

[fr3]

71. I am NOT endorsing this...

But my brother in law sent me this

http://www.swiftvets.com/

These guys say their names and their ranks. It scares me they would go on the record.

And like I said before, my VN friends are upset that they had to stay in VN when Kerry got to leave so early.

I am NOT arguing with you! I am asking for help with facts to tell the repugs where to go. These guys are on the record so it is not like we can just say they are "paid off" unless we are naive.

My VN freinds are also pretty tough, so I don't wwant to piss them off.

[thebigidea]

75. Gee, what a gen-u-ine coincidence that seems to be.

Golly, well I'll be!

Swift vets for truth!

"These guys are on the record so it is not like we can just say they are "paid off" unless we are naive."

You do realize that you're not making a lick of sense, yes? The hell does that mean?

You do know that those guys are on record as being (snicker) flipflopping liars and Nixon puppets, yes?

No, I guess its all just a genuine coincidence that the source of your nonsense is fucking John O'Neill. Oh, and tell your imaginary friends that I loved Jane Fonda in Barberalla. Bwahahahah.

[fr3]

76. I don't understand

So they are paid off?

I have bad concerns that we will loose this time and it will be because we didn't see what is in front of us.

I have people I know in the "battleground states" who I called on the phone tonight. They think that what the vets says is true and that the fact that the guys said they would say their names would be "important".

We cannot be so silly as to not see what is happening here. And we are just stupid if we just close our eyes and say "these are Nixon puppets."

Unless, you think this is the work of the TriLateral Commission.

[thebigidea]

79. Yeah, well my friends in Bizzaro World think your friends are wusses!

"We cannot be so silly as to not see what is happening here. "

Then perhaps snapping out of it would be in order, dear sir. All the relevant facts have been rattled off on this thread, but you apparently haven't bothered to actually read them or anything.

But somehow apocryphal conversations with fictional constructs are more relevant?

Tell Harvey I said hi.



By the way, what IS happening here?

Oh, how about a party so FUCKING TERRIFIED of John Kerry's little show at the DNC, so COMPLETELY TAKEN OFF GUARD by the Security/Strength/Service thing, that all they can do to distract from the amusing contrast to Dubya's brave record is to fling shit at Kerry, completely unsubstantiated shit from people who didn't serve with him, shit from people who can't even keep their story straight from month to month.

That's what's happening here.

But what's your spin on those courageous Swift Vets for Truth? What do you think they are? Brave, selfless patriots with no RW-backing? With no idiot Freeper goons doing their webwork?

You gonna defend Free Republic next?

[flaminbats]

81. this is why people like us must defend Kerry's record...

Dukakis was slaughtered because he never responded to these type of sick attacks. Clinton won because he responded to these attacks, and stayed on the offensive about what the Republican agenda would do to America.

Being concerned will not help. Democrats have nothing to lose but everything to gain. Unless we are willing to support Kerry and get our friends or relatives to, then we have lost. But Kerry has generated far more energy for his campaign than did Al Gore, and Gore won the popular vote by more than 500,000 votes. Start preaching what Kerry stands for, and stop parroting whatever the dirty tricks machine invents. Support our troops..then condemn this type of political mudslinging.

[fr3]

91. But the record has to be defendable

You said: "Being concerned will not help. Democrats have nothing to lose but everything to gain. Unless we are willing to support Kerry and get our friends or relatives to, then we have lost. But Kerry has generated far more energy for his campaign than did Al Gore, and Gore won the popular vote by more than 500,000 votes. Start preaching what Kerry stands for, and stop parroting whatever the dirty tricks machine invents. Support our troops..then condemn this type of political mudslinging"

Jeeze, I spend time on this forum (and have my posts summarily squashed by some sort of a silly tech problem) and I see you posting this kind of silliness.

WE MUST UNDERSTAND AND UNITE. We MUST see and agree that JFKerry has hurt us. We need to have a cogent strategy to address the clearly truthful attacks on OUR candidate. I KNEW this was going to be a problem way back when, but I stayed mute on the sidelines.

I was hoping we progressives/liberals/whatevers could put together a unified strategy to unseat the fascists that have taken over our government. Look how they stoppered Whoopie. Look what they did to the Dixie Chix. And Susan Sarandon. The list goes on and on. The 1st amendment only applies to the rich!

We need a sold response to the attack on Mr. Kerry's honorable time in Vietnam. And we can't wish away the facts about the doctor's report about the "final" purple heart. Let's be real. Until John says otherwise, the "he hurt himself" thing will be out there.

We can't afford to be Pollyannas. We need to have a good response (not "Bush wasn't in VN")

WHAT DO WE SAY??????????

[thebigidea]

92. hilarious!

"and have my posts summarily squashed by some sort of a silly tech problem"

That might be the "disobeying the rules and posting flamebait tech problem" that strikes often.

"We MUST see and agree that JFKerry has hurt us."

What the hell are you jabbering about now? He's doing great in the polls and poised to unseat this little raving child-president.

"Look what they did to the Dixie Chix."

Yeah, they did killer business on their tour and got tons of press. Heaven forbid that happen again.

"And Susan Sarandon"

they turned her into an award-winning actress who gets plenty of work?

"We need a sold response to the attack on Mr. Kerry's honorable time in Vietnam."

Several solid responses have been offered on this thread and you choose to stick your fingers in your ears. La la la, I can't hear them! La la la!


"We need to have a cogent strategy to address the clearly truthful attacks on OUR candidate. "

Clearly truthful? What the fuck do you know about truth?

What's your cogent strategy, cutting and pasting their damn URL?

Why don't YOU stop and start fighting this?

All you seem interested in is perpetuating their lies and causing static.

You really want facts? You REALLY want a response to all this crap?

Well, chew on http://www.mediamatters.org and the following links therein, where you'll learn:

Anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets launch discredited attacks

MMFA investigates: Who is Jerome Corsi, co-author of Swift Boat Vets attack book? 08.06.04
Swift Boat Vets chairman's evolving story about knowing Kerry in Vietnam 08.06.04
Boston Globe: Veteran retracts criticism of Kerry 08.06.04
Salon.com: chief Kerry attacker lied about prior TV interviews 08.06.04
Conason: McCain condemns "Republicans' Dishonorable Charge" 08.06.04
Submerging the truth about Swift Boat Vets on Hannity & Colmes, Scarborough Country 08.05.04
AP: "McCain condemns anti-Kerry ads, calls on White House to follow suit" 08.05.04
O'Reilly on anti-Kerry Swift Boat Vets: "I've never seen them on ... cable news" 08.05.04
NYT article on discredited Drudge story failed to report paper's own executive editor had debunked it 07.30.04
In "World Exclusive," Drudge dredged up discredited charge that Kerry filmed reenacted combat scenes for future political career 07.29.04
FOX exposed anti-Kerry vets' flip-flopping 06.05.04
FOX's Colmes confronted chair of Swift Boat Vets about the group's partisan ties 06.02.04
NY Post mum on "Doc" Docs 05.06.04
Who is John O'Neill? 05.04.04

If you haven't read those pieces and don't take a couple minutes to do so now, your words here will ring exceedingly false.

[rumguy]

96. nice bitch slap!

Is this dude transparent or what?

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

98. Ah, the sound of pure desperation...

Can't ya feel it in the air? It all seems a bit more strained, more forced.

Tempers are fraying, and they seem to lose it after just a bit of scrutiny.

The same stuff doesn't seem to work any more. The house of cards came a-tumblin' down, and all of Rove's horses and all of Rove's men can't put Stupid Monkeyface back together again.

Ah, I'm enjoying it. After years of this nightmare, relief is in sight and all concerned can smell it. Especially that William Kristol guy. Rumsfeld doesn't grin as much these days either.

But enough waxing insomnia-poetic... to my fine feathered fr3 friend: By all means, bookmark the thread. Maybe you'll manage to actually read one of the responses one day, instead of continuing to belch out such a nasty little smokescreen.

"OK, so all of us who believe in liberal values are now "Kerry-Bots."

What a strange non-sequitor. What liberal values do you believe in? The liberal value of smearing liberals with information peddled by Nixon operatives? Personally, that's my favorite liberal value.

"He is a bazillionaire who made his money by marrying rich women."

He's the only option we have now to defeat the most shameful President who has ever disgraced the White House. I know which side I'm on, do you?

"That notwistanding, the Right has some very serious grenades they have lobbed."

Considering that millions upon millions of dollars in negative ads have barely scratched him, I'd say that ACME gyped you guys on the grenades... AGAIN!


"I looked for helpful responses. Instead I get attacks."

You got plenty of helpful responses and many URLs with credible information completely blowing apart your deceptive little hijinks. You didn't respond to a single one, did you?

"We can't win if we deceive ourselves."

You might want to fax that little gem to Bush/Cheney 2004, they seem to be operating under that delusion.

"Yeah. Closing our eyes is a great strategy. They have our balls in a vice, so we should play the tom-toms."

You might want to check which testicles are in that vice, dearie. I think they're connected to someone named "Karl"

[flaminbats]

95. try educating yourself...

I have given you information, sources, and books to learn more about Kerry. For some reason you don't seem to care.

If you don't think Kerry's record is defendable, but Bush's is..then vote for Bush. If you had really done the research, you would know Bush's record is not defendable but Kerry's is one of the best.

I am sick of the name calling. I consider Kerry to be moral, intelligent, and brave. He has the best plan to make our country stronger, and to save us from the short term recklessness of the current administration.

You can learn more about Kerry's war record from well documented sources, or you can be pollyannish and believe every person who hates Democrats. You can fight back against the Republicans' unpatriotic attacks against national service, or you can join in. You can join in the fight for peace, universal healthcare, and deficit reduction..or you can support higher deficits, more discrimination against the sick and disabled, and more war with no exit strategy in sight.

http://www.harpercollins.com/catalog/book_xml.asp?isbn=0060565233

for more on Kerry's agenda...

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=132&subid=193&contentid=252776

[fr3]

101. you fool

>>Covering more than four decades, Tour of Duty is the definitive account of John Kerry's journey from war to peace. Written by acclaimed historian Douglas Brinkley, this is the first full-scale, intimate account of Kerry's naval career. In writing this riveting narrative, Brinkley has drawn on extensive interviews with virtually everyone who knew Kerry well in Vietnam, including all the men still living who served under him. Kerry also entrusted to Brinkley his letters home from Vietnam and his voluminous "War Notes" -- journals, notebooks, and personal reminiscences written during and shortly after the war. This material was provided without restriction, to be used at Brinkley's discretion, and has never before been published.

>>When Kerry returned from Southeast Asia, he joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), becoming a prominent antiwar spokesperson. He challenged the Nixon administration on Capitol Hill with the antiwar movement cheering him on. As Kerry's public popularity soared in April-May 1971, the FBI considered him a subversive."

This is exactly what Middle America is going to nail us with!

So we hated the Vietnam war but we have a Vietnam War Hero who attacked all the rest of the Vietnam Heros?

I want to kick * out of the White House and you keep producing ideology over substance??????

You still don't understand. I want to win, and I am asking for GOOD data on how to undermine this kind of attack. Don't get mad at me, give me something I can use!

I am asking for a lifeline! Can anyone at DU send me one? JFK keeps hurting me!

[thebigidea]

102. Yeah, he does sound like he's getting to you.

Don't worry, you'll get used to the sound of President Kerry... eventually.

And think of all the fun you'll have with Theresa Heinz Kerry! She'll be the Hillary of the New American Century for the Scaife Set.

Bring it on!

[fr3]

106. THK is part of the problem!!!!

Why do you want chimpy to win?????????

Why do you toss aside my objective observations?

I swear to God that I will bookmark these posts and if we lose (which given your attitudes, we will) and I will cram them down your throats like the movie "Misery"

[thebigidea]

107. Objective observations? Is that what they call it these days?

"Why do you toss aside my objective observations? "

You haven't responded to a single post refuting that stupid swift boat group. You haven't paid attention to a single article or URL decimating their credibility.

Why do you toss aside credible sources that refute the attacks that you ostensibly want to refute?

Why do you hate seeing the propaganda you're peddling being dissected and shown to be the empty idiocy that it is?

In short, why must you hate freedom so much? Either with us or against us.

And if you're in the mood to start cramming things down your throat, be prepared for the taste of bile come November. Bush has completely blown it if the opposition is reduced to quibbling about purple hearts.

Bwhahahahah!

[MoonRiver]

115. He doesn't intend to read the links.

Almost immediately after links are given to him, he responds with his 'why don't you give me something, sob' b.s. Obviously he hasn't even clicked on the links and read the titles.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

114. The Dixie Chicks Are Hot...

It is every red blooded American male's dream to slap skin with all three of them....


Think about it....


Who would you rather do



The Bush shill Loretta Lynn or the Dixie Chicks....

[flaminbats]

77. thanks for the link...

I have read most of what these vets had to say. Most who say Kerry shouldn't be President or who wish to piss on his service record are either angry because of Kerry's opposition to Vietnam or because they are Republicans who personally did not know him.

If I was a right-wing vet who needed more money, I might badmouth Kerry too! The real question is which of their statements are accurate? This group is funded by people who use vets, and later shit on them..

[union_maid]

66. Ok, this is where he was and what he was doing

From Kerry's website:

John Kerry enlisted in the Navy in 1966. After completing Naval Officer Candidates School, he began his first tour of duty on the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate in the waters adjacent to Vietnam. In 1968, John Kerry began his second tour of duty, and volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat, one of the most dangerous assignments of the war. Swift Boats patrolled the narrow inlets and canals around the Mekong Delta "to draw fire and smoke out the enemy," according to the The Boston Globe.

The four months refer to the swiftboat tour of duty. If you know people who served multiple years in Vietnam they must have been unusual or lifers. Most did a year total. And that was in the Army. Many, many of the guys I knew opted for the Navy in those days. And they all were on aircraft carriers. Every cruise lost a few guys in accidents, but hardly any in combat except for those who flew. Pacific cruises brought them to Vietnam, but they weren't deployed there for a year at a time. Each cruise was about six months in total and covered other countries. You really had to go out of your way to get the kind of super high-risk duty and close enemy contact that Kerry did while serving in the Navy in the Vietnam era. Many much easier assignments would have been available to him.

[fr3]

65. Your exact words

"But, it could be seen as an attack brought on by bush (Bring It On) and clearly a statement that we are not safer...as he has been touting lately"

I see this as being wanting us to be attacked. You seem to be putting our political agenda ahead of the hurting of the USA people.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

26. First sentence of the last paragraph of the article:

"The advantage goes to Bush unless the public gets wise to the game."

[autorank]

74. The explanation -- WELCHIES

I have answered the question: why do nominally liberal media types whore for the republicans. Clift, Fineman, Tweetie...they all work for NBC. NBC is owned by General Electric whose boss, Jack WELCH, made NBC call it for Bush. My idle speculation, which I'm sure is true, is that old Jack established a bonus system, cash rewards every time a whore bashed the Democrats, Clinton, etc. While Welch is gone, the system survives. I'm sure Tweetie is the big bonus winner, starting with the obsession with Clinton and continuing today. CNN has its own version, and Republican whoring is a part of the employment contract at Faux.

When you see the whores do their things, just chalk it up to the good old 'shake your moneymaker' routine. They will all face Edward R. Murrow before they're allowed to leave media purgatory..."and that's a good thing."

[Cha]

5. Nice of her to point out how they are manipulating

the race..but I disagree..bush is going to lose.

So whatever smears and Lies they are doing is not going to mean shit when the voters go to the polls. Kerry/Edwards are going to win.

Who's going to Washingtion D.C. for the Inaugeration?

[DrFunkenstein]

7. Yeah, Osama Is Really Cringing After Tora Bora

Bush, scared to commit troops, relies on local warlords to find Osama. That guy is tough on terror!

The W stands for Wussy.

By the way, anyone else notice that Bush can "wrap this up," but his vice-president is a symbol of all that is wrong with the administration? This writer's a hack.

[Toots]

9. Some very good points made but you know what? I think it is too

late for Bush*. Neither Giuliani nor McCain will save him at this stage of the game. The Giant is Rubbing His Eyes.

[DaveinMD]

12. I'm not sure

an attack would help Bush. He would have had 3 years to make us safer, and he would have failed. It could be argued that we need to give Kerry a chance to protect us.

[Cha]

21. I'm in your camp!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. You Can Turn Things On It's Head...

Bush is more a prisoner to events than Kerry...


Yeah, a terrorist attack can cut against Kerry but a major insurgency in Iraq cuts against Bush....

[quaoar]

17. This is a classic example

Of a media pundit applying experience from previous elections to today -- all the while never venturing far from the Beltway to figure out what is really going on.

[Cha]

18. Agreed!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. She Can't Demoralize A Democrat Since Birth Either

NT

[Yavin4]

25. Bush Is Toast

For the past two years and up until this last jobs report, I'd thought that Bush would win. However, after that last report, I believe that Bush will lose. He's grasping at straws at this point. The terror alerts are becoming routine. Thus, their impact on the public is declining. Iraq is out of control. The deficit is skyrocketing. Jobs are disappearing. Inflation is getting higher. Interest rates are going up. The stock markets are in decline. Most of these things are not going to turn around in Bush's favor in less than three months.

Bottom line, there are just too many strong fundamentals working against Bush at this point to turn things around. Will his convention give him a boost? Probably, maybe even a lead, but Kerry will quickly close that lead in Sept. and then re-take it for good after the debates.

[MoonRiver]

27. Despite millions of dollars poured into anti-Kerry ads, bush* is BEHIND.

Americans are fed up with this lying bag of shit and his merry band of international warmongers. Dream on Clift, and while you're at it shove that spin up your arse.

:thumbsdown:

[LittleApple81]

29. AAARGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Let me out! I AM FED UP WITH THE

PUNDITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's just keep fighting, showing that his terror alerts from Pakistan were timed (New Republic knew it almost to the day!!!!)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. I Think It Was Calvin Trillin

who called the pundits during the Lewinsky brohaha the Sunday morning gasbags....

[flaminbats]

32. who writes that sh*t!

Sorry, but another terrorist attack is something that would result in a landslide for Kerry. People gave him a chance after 9/11, and they gave him another chance when we first invaded Iraq. But in baseball the third strike is the last chance. Bush can either get it right with a home-run, or he could screwup with his third strike. But people will not tolerate another terrorist attack this close to the election, and if it happens..Republicans would suffer their greatest defeat in over 70 years. Republicans would lose any advantage on patriotism and national security over the Democrats..the only two themes which might save their useless party.

Another terrorist attack may be something fools will wish for, but Bush knows all about not being fooled again! :eyes:

[Mz Pip]

48. This is the guy

who dropped his dog.

I don't think he can control much of anything.

MzPip
:dem:

[Demoiselle]

57. Hey, guys, Clift is supposed to be a "liberal" voice...

At least that's how she's marketed on the gasbag hours. This piece slams the Bushies for dishonest manipulation, and then refuses to credit the Kerry forces with any skill in countering said manipulation or American voters with any capacity at all for seeing through it. Krikey! With "friends" like her, who needs enemies! I don't see any point at all to this piece, unless she just wants us all to slash our wrists. She must have gone off her meds. She's certainly gone over to the dark side.

[Lex]

58. Had she seen any of the recent polls before she wrote that?

.
I think Bush is slipping badly, and the more he yells "terra" the more sick people are getting of it.

Did she write these words BEFORE the terra alert was found to be based on FOUR year old intel?

[MichiganVote]

61. Another Republican fantasy from the romantic happy ever after

This is all bullshit. People want jobs, they want money, they want a treasury that is secure and they want their kids out of Iraq. They want the things that Bush is not providing. Bush should have chosen the slogan, "A chicken in every pot".

[blm]

72. She's not factoring in something VERY important: People are SICK of Bush.

His disapproval rating is now at 53% and negatives almost always LOCK IN.

Eleanor should get out of Washington and smell some real coffee. If there is another terror attack, it will be because of two of Bush's character flaws, his incompetence and his arrogance. He and his cronies spend more time covering up their fuck ups and crimes than they do working on real solutions.

[fr3]

82. I will be our Cassandra

I so want "*/chimpy" to be gone.

But to merely SAY "we will win" is silly and stupid beyond conscience.

This is it. I am tired of just watching all of us masturbate and make ourselves targets.

Wanting something is not the same as getting something. If we keep deluding ourselves we can enjoy another 4 years of Bush. And it will be our fault for being "smarter" than the repugs who will win because they are realists.

Our choice: Masturbate or win. John/John isn't Clinton/Gore. The current currency is they will kill us.

Get on board or keep enjoying your dream. Just let me know so I know what to do.

(Spelling check engaged)

[thebigidea]

84. And the best way to do that would be to fucking advertise for swiftvets?

All you've done is rattle off bullshit RW talking points. I don't see a grand plan to defeat Bush in your babble, you're just throwing up a smokescreen to put Kerry's war record in doubt.

At no point do you address any of the known inconsistencies of their lies, at no point do you express the least bit of interest in debunking their charges. You haven't responded to any of the posts offering links giving the facts...

Time to turn in your crystal ball, Cassandra: the stupid monkey is going down and no amount of whining about Kerry's purple hearts will stop that from happening.

Here's an idea: why not stop masturbating and concentrate some of your energy on exposing Bush's questionable service record?

No, not appealing?

Best to attack Kerry, right?

After all, you said it yourself: "If we keep deluding ourselves we can enjoy another 4 years of Bush."

Stop deluding yourself. There's still time, and you'll feel incredibly relieved... albeit slightly embarassed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. That Clown Was Too Fucking Much....

He was using a Freeperized version of the Socratic Method to demonstrate that the accusations against John Kerry are irrefutable......



A Freeper using the Socratic Method is like a blind man performing brain surgery.....


It ain't going to happen.....

[MoonRiver]

119. Is it gone?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. I Had The Same Kind Of Debate Here With A Guy

who was trying to cloak the argument that Kerry can't win in the garb of the Freeperized version of the Socratic Method....



If Bush doesn't change the dynamic he will lose.... The only thing that can change the dynamic is , god forbid, another terrorist attack....


I really don't know how a terrorist attack will cut...


Will they blame Bush or rally around him....

[MoonRiver]

122. My husband and I have this debate all the time.

He thinks it will help. I think it will be the final straw for a public already highly suspicious of this idiot and his warmongering adm.

[flaminbats]

88. you are sooo sexy man!!

This is it. I am tired of just watching all of us masturbate and make ourselves targets.

If you are tired of masturbating, stop supporting the war in Iraq. Only Republicans would privatize prisons, and let Titan Incorporated abuse the Iraqi prisoners. Strange how Republicans are not even upset about this or willing to criticize their immoral leadership.

[blm]

125. Noone SAID that. Respond to what is SAID, not something YOU distort

so you can regurgitate something YOU think sounds cool.

Talk about empty rhetoric....you drop it by the gallons.

[Beetwasher]

87. This Is A Good Article, Despite The Title. It SLAMS The Admin.

It's a motivator...Clift is on our side, really. Read this article again and do it objectively. She's exposing ALL THE SURPRISES and ALL THE CYNICAL MANIPUALATIONS that are forthcoming from Bushco. Clift is on our side people...Read the last paragraph, it's all you need to know:

"The advantage goes to Bush unless the public gets wise to the game. Eventually the wolf will appear. Eventually we will have a real attack, and the administration by crying wolf time after time lessens our zeal to respond. Here at Newsweek's Washington Bureau, in a city identified as a prime target, we don't need an orange alert to tell us Al Qaeda is still plotting against us."

She's TRYING TO MAKE THE PUBLIC WISE TO THE GAME!!! Get it? She's one of the good guys, seriously!

[rucky]

89. Um, voters determine elections - not politicians

and Newsweek is just one more example of how the media thinks people are stupid.

[flaminbats]

90. umm, not in Presidential elections..

the electors determine who is President, not the people.

[AirAmFan]

104. 'Advantage Bush UNLESS THE PUBLIC GETS WISE to the game'

Did you read the whole column? Near the end, Clift says, "The advantage goes to Bush unless the public gets wise to the game."

The idea that incumbency is tough to beat in an election is not new. Rove has altered the usual election victory formula by adding some George Orwell to the equation: The 2004 WH game plan is incumbency + "national security" FEAR = victory.

But the "national security" game the WH is playing has not gone without notice. Efforts to alert the public to the WH game are multiplying.

Building on the expose of political fear in "Bowling for Columbine", "Fahrenheit 911" has set box-office records. Letterman and Leno have made Tom Ridge a figure of fun for not revealing his latest "orange alert", which apparently helped tank the stock market to new lows, was based on four-year old intel.

And the DNC has launched a new ad that puts the public wise to the game in a subtle but effective way, using footage of Kerry speaking to a huge audience. He says, "And the terrorists will learn that fear will not win. Freedom will!" IMO this approach works quite well and is only one of MANY tactics to weaken the effectiveness of national security fearmongering this year.

[roguevalley]

108. Cheney would never leave and bush would be lost without him coming

and laying out the agenda every day. McCain would be of no use to bush and bush would be loathe to let him see how brainless he is without Cheney telling him what to do everyday.

I don't see it happening, although I will admit, anything is possible if they get scared enough. However, Cheney would still play svengali but I don't see McCain going along with it.

[Kierkegaard]

121. Wondering

I don't believe the issue is as cut and dried as this piece implies.

I've never been insightful enough to gauge public opinion, but I have to think that if there were another terrorist incident on U.S. soil between now and the election, it would destroy the current administration.

Their single most claimed accomplishment is how much effort they have undertaken to keep us safe since 9/11. They've gone to war proactively to prevent it. They've spent us into a recession to prevent it. They've abridged our civil liberties to prevent it. They've tried incessantly to scare the living shit out of us at every opportunity to make sure it is always on our minds.

If we are attacked, even after all those sacrifices, don't you think the general populace would entirely abandon their confidence in this devious, lying bunch of cretins?

[Sparkly]

126. I don't believe they did much of anything to prevent it

Pushing tax cuts isn't preventing it. Attacking Iraq isn't preventing it. Overstretching the military and underfunding local first responders isn't preventing it. I don't understand how you can say this administration has made "sacrifices" or "effort" to "keep us safe!"

As to your question, I don't think anybody knows how an attack would affect the elections.

[Kierkegaard]

128. You misunderstand..

The sacrifices were made by us. We're the ones suffering as a result of them, not government. They are just burying their extravagant and stupid actions under the guise of creating a safer America.

[Sparkly]

130. I agree with the word "guise"

And the sacrifices shouldn't have been to our civil rights, but instead should have been to our upper-end tax cuts and our gluttony for oil.

Anyway, some people say an attack would cause voters to "rally 'round the president." Others say it'd be seen as another colossal failure on their part. Who knows?

[Kierkegaard]

131. regardless

I hope we don't have to find out...

[Sparkly]

133. Agreed, hope is all we can do

This administration isn't going to do anything.

As my General said, "I'm not attacking George W. Bush for attacking the terrorists, I'm attacking him for NOT attacking the terrorists."

[Zen Democrat]

127. 130 days in Vietnam? There were guys killed on their first DAY there.

How immaterial can you get.

The casualty rate on Swift Boats was 75% according to Adm. Zumwalt.

Check out Col. David Hackworth remarking on John Kerry's service and his purple hearts:

"Since it was always my standard drill as a commander to stay in close touch with what was going down, I spent a lot of time in the boonies with the troops under my control. But during that year, I did the small-boat thing only twice. Why? Because as an infantry grunt, I simply didn't like the odds. And since those hair-raising trips, my steel pot has always been off to those sailors.

Now a number of war veterans have picked the campaign-stumping season to question the first Purple Heart that Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry received during his four months as a small-boat skipper — where one day out on Vietnam's rivers and canals was a lifetime, and four months had to have been an eternity."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-06-15-hackman_x.htm

[Sparkly]

129. Exactly -- and some call it "opportunistic"?!!

He, and we, should be GLAD if the wounds weren't life-threatening. The duty itself was life-threatening. He could have been killed at any time.

What they're really angry about has nothing to do with Kerry's medals. They didn't like his anti-war testimony; they liked Nixon, and now they like the Chimp; and they're jealous. I don't think it's anything more than that.

[demgrrrll]

132. This is on the order of ya know what I heard but I read a comment from

someone who has been in contact with Sy Hersh who told him that Rove plans to use terror alerts whenever Kerry scores a huge point to divert attention from him to Bush. That person also wrote that a journalist is working on the story right now. That is all they have going for them folks, fear. If someone actually does break this story in a meaningful manner it will be one more nail in the coffin. Sorry I can't link so you can take it with a grain of salt or a salt lick if you want to. From Atrios comments.

[AmerDem]

135. " if the presidnet plays it right, the investigators will go easy on him"

Once Kerry takes back OUR White House!