Need three quick explanations for Kerry in an argument against Naderite

[George_Bonanza]

It's gotten pretty silly, in that the mentioned Naderite has denied that Nader has accepted the help from Michigan Repugs and from conservative groups in Oregon, and that is all part of an election lie propagated by zealous Democrats. Yeah, them and every credible news source in America.

Anyway, he brought up three points that caught me off guard because I never heard of them before. I could research it myself, but I've already spent hours arguing with this misguided voter and provided ample links to make denial impossible. Here goes:

1) Iran-Contra: He said that Kerry did nothing in Iran-Contra because he voted for non-lethal aid. I have no idea what this is about. Could anybody tell me the positive things Kerry did in Iran-Contra, and what non-lethal aid is?

2) S&L: He mentioned something about Kerry accepting a lot of money from the S&L debacle in the 80s. Again, I have no idea what this is about.

3) Lobby money: I've sort of heard this before, months ago. The accusation is that while Kerry turned away PAC money, he accepted a great deal of money from lobbyists during his senate career.

[sandnsea]

1. Humanitarian Aid

He voted yes on the humanitarian aid, no on the military aid. Funny thing, meeting with Daniel Ortega in 1985 is likely to cause more problems than voting for humanitarian aid.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040521/NEWS09/405210358/1056/NEWS09

I've never heard anything about the S&L stuff. They did pick out certain years for Kerry and somehow came up with lobbyist numbers. But then you look at Wellstone's PAC money and realize a case can be made against anybody if you want to try. There's still nothing as low as consorting with Republican radicals when you know the result is going to be numbnuts in the White House.

[marlakay]

2. Spin it around

I had a Nadar guy trying to pick up signatures at the farmers market where we were trying to reg voters. I find that for every thing they throw at you, put it back in their face. Kerry accepted money...what is nadar doing accepting repub money? Kerry is just like Bush blah blah blah...for that one I say I heard Nadar on Bill Maher the other night saying he wants Bush out of office, he doesn't seem to be helping in that regard.

[DieboldMustDie]

3. Did you say Iran-Contra?

See this recent Salon.com article, John Kerry, the man who uncovered Iran-Contra.

[nofurylike]

6. :) slow, here. excellent article. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

4. I wonder what Mr. Nader did in Iran-Contra

I cant help you with this honest man, I am an amateur researcher, I research congressional records, districts, bios, etc. Good luck against the asshole Naderite btw.

[nofurylike]

5. Kerry is the one who uncovered the entire Iran Contra scandal

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/062003.shtml
has the s&l info too.

**
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2004/07/22/kerry/index_np.html

(requires watching an ad for a 1 day free pass, but the article begins with this):

John Kerry, the man who uncovered Iran-Contra
The Democratic nominee has a long record of fearlessly exposing abuses of power -- including launching the investigation that unraveled the worst scandal since Watergate.

By Sidney Blumenthal

**

AND more important than ALL of that, in my humble opinion:

something all nader supporters must read, unless they'll go back to civics 101 classes:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0806-13.htm


peace!

[George_Bonanza]

7. Thanks guys

I know I should just walk away from this pointless argument, but I sort of have a history with this guy and he really pisses me off. You know, typical self-righteous "idealist". To me, an idealist is not somebody who sits in an ivory tower sneering at all those lesser mortals actually working hard to make a real difference. To me, putting a man like Kerry in office then demanding full accountability and high expectations upon him in a gradual plan to move America to a more compassionate and liberal footing is way more idealistic than simply trashing any Democrat as a corporate slave and kissing Nader's feet at every turn.

[nofurylike]

8. from my previous reply, this article is very important. here's a snip:

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0806-13.htm
-snip-
But first we must correct the misperception Nader is pushing that the problem third parties face is purely the fault of the existing two parties. While it's true they resist third parties as a challenge to their power, the real problem is a flawed electoral system left over from 1787.

And, as Australia demonstrated, a two-party system can be changed to a multiparty system - but only when the nation's citizens realize the true source of the problem.
***

you know, it seems to me it is worth it to debate this with nader supporters - while clearly hopeless to do so with nader himself.
every supporter who decides to vote for kerry will most likely pass on to others why the change of immediate view.


peace!

[nofurylike]

10. well put, imho, George_Bonanza

"To me, putting a man like Kerry in office then demanding full accountability and high expectations upon him in a gradual plan to move America to a more compassionate and liberal footing is way more idealistic than simply trashing any Democrat as a corporate slave and kissing Nader's feet at every turn."


to me, too.


peace

[the Kelly Gang]

9. if his Nader vote gets Bush in expect all his fears to quadruple

[nofurylike]

11. very important point! n/t

[noamnety]

12. MI GOP help for nader, Kerry Commission

The Michigan democrats have a press release online talking about help the GOP gave to Nader. http://www.mi-democrats.com/press/2004pr/7-22-04%20Nader.pdf
The also have some pages scanned showing examples of petition fraud: http://www.mi-democrats.com/topics/Nader%20Petitions.htm

If there are any questions as to whether the GOP helped, go to this link: http://www.migop.org/nader.asp and ask yourself why does the GOP site have a nader page that says "Thank you for your assistance on this project."

I have a little Kerry Iran-Contra section of my site that might help you out. http://ideamouth.com/respect.htm#Terrorism

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=143 has a good article about the money from lobbyists.