"pro-life" means "anti-choice"!

[athena]

I see so many people here saying things like "Oh, I'm pro-life myself, but I don't think abortion should be made illegal." Please, stop saying this. If you don't think abortion should be illegal, you are pro-choice, period. The issue is not about whether or not you would choose to have an abortion yourself. Nor is it about whether you think efforts should be made to make abortion rare and unnecessary (which is a perfectly good pro-choice position). The issue is only about whether or not you think abortion should be illegal.

So it's like this:

• If you think abortion should be legal, then you are pro-choice.
  
• If you think abortion should be illegal, then you are anti-choice, or "pro-life"
  

"Pro-life" is a misleading term adopted by the right-wing to confuse and divide liberals. So please, let's all stop misusing this term. Saying you are "pro-life" to indicate that you think abortion is a bad thing implies that pro-choicers are "anti-life" and think abortion is a good thing -- which is absolutely insane. Nobody thinks abortion is a good thing!

With all this confusion among liberals, it's no wonder that half of the women in this country think they are "pro-life".

[Jacobin]

1. Was amazed to read the other thread today on here

with people thinking that they had to SUPPORT abortion or want to get one to be pro-choice.

Repukes have done a great job of confusing the public.

We shouldn't be confused on that issue and thanks for the post.

[Cuban_Liberal]

2. Sorry, but I disagree.

As a Roman Catholic, I believe in the 'seamless web' concept regarding life; that makes me 'pro-life', and just because the RW nutjobs have hijacked this term does not mean they own it. I personally believe abortion is a mortal sin, but I also believe it is a constitutionally-protected right in this Republic.

I'm not confused at all, thank you very much.

[Maddy McCall]

4. So do you believe that abortion should be SAFE and LEGAL?

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. Of course I do.

And I said so.

[Maddy McCall]

10. Then you are pro-choice.

The whole abortion debate is not truly about one side believing in the sanctity of life and the other side not.

No one on the pro-choice side celebrates the procedure of abortion--so both sides of the debate are pro-life. Therefore, "life" is really no part of the contention.

The argument is about whether or not women should have the legal right to have the procedure. It's all about choice, so those who believe that women should retain this right are both pro-life and pro-choice. The other side is pro-life and anti-choice.

The locus of the whole debate is choice.

(And I know I am not saying anything that most people don't already know. We have got to stop the right from having the power to create the lexicon around which all political debates center. Control the language, control the mind.)

:-)

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. No, I am pro-life AND pro-choice.

I am refusing to let the RW define the lexicon. They, you see, are not 'pro-life', they are simply 'anti-choice'.

:)

[Maddy McCall]

15. You and I are completely on the same wavelength...

I agree wholeheartedly. :-)

[Cuban_Liberal]

20. *grin*

:hug:

[TeacherCreature]

27. no Cuban liberal

When you say you are pro-life you are allowing them to determine the language with which we debate this issue. It does matter how we define ourselves. These terms have been used since before you were born.
It is great that you are pro-life and pro-choice...please do women a favor and use the term pro-choice. Otherwise you abandon us.

[WiseMen]

38. I suspect our Nominee agrees with this position. But, the "2-sides" of

every issue slam would apply. Very tricky situation politically.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. So while you may apply the term to yourself

and simultaneously be pro-life and pro-choice, it sounds to me like you are aware that usually when someone uses this term, they mean they are anti-choice.


FWIW, I bet everyone involved in the discussion is 'pro-life' according to your definition.

[athena]

16. OK.

So you disagree with my title "pro-life is anti-choice". I understand. But the right wing has taken over the term "pro-life" to mean "anti-choice"; and many people support "pro-lifers" when they are really supporting "anti-choicers", without even realizing it. You may not be confused, but you have to admit most people are. I don't claim I'm not confused. I had trouble understanding your point until jchild clarified it.

[TeacherCreature]

25. You are wrong and you are confusing the issue and you are hurting women

Please get it right. You are pro-choice. Please stop helping the anti women's rights crowd. They use the term pro-life to vilanize women who are pro-choice. Please don't help them do so.

[Cuban_Liberal]

30. I'm not wrong--- I'm taking back the terms of debate.

We've let the RW nut jobs define the terms of debate for far too long, and i will no longer remain passive about it. You may remain so, if you wish.

:shrug:

[Maddy McCall]

3. Preach it, sister!

I've made this very same argument countless times on DU, though not as eloquently as you.

Thank you! :thumbsup:

[Old and In the Way]

6. Pro-choice supports the individual's right to choose

Pro-life is an anti-democratic position. Our position accepts all positions on the issue, anti-choice excludes those that believe otherwise.

Only a communist would support a state-sponsered totalitarian position that only allows a "pro-life" position. :-)

[SemperEadem]

8. Here here!!

"Only a communist would support a state-sponsered totalitarian position that only allows a "pro-life" position."

So true! It's funny how the RWnut philosophy mirrors the Soviet Union's Communist rhetorical tactics of the 1950's... I can just see 'darling Nikita' banging his fist on the podium.

[SemperEadem]

7. the power of labelling

if a label can be equated with negativity and disapproval by a vocal sector of society, then most folks are going to strive to not have one applied to them.

[classof56]

9. Relating to this subject...

There's an article in this month's Prevention magazine about the growing numbers of doctors and pharmacists across the country who are refusing to prescribe or dispense birth control pills. And that's for any reason, which is disturbing in that many women take the pill for reasons other than specifically birth control. To quote Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood Federation of America: "The war on choice is not just about abortion anymore. It's about our right to birth control." This is an article worth reading for any woman concerned about the ability to decide when/if she wants to become pregnant, not to mention the ability of women with conditions that are addressed by use of the pill (prevent ovarian cancer, treat endometriosis, etc.)to obtain those medications.

Not sure just how this fits in the "pro-choice" "pro-life" issue you are talking about, but it certainly got my attention.

BTW, welcome to DU, Athena.

Bush MUST GO!!

[ibegurpard]

11. This is why they're pushing the "pro-abortion" thing hard.

No one is "pro-abortion." But the majority of the public thinks it should remain safe and legal without the intrustion of the government, even though they might be opposed to abortion in principle.

[dogman]

13. I think you are totally wrong.

I am pro-life, that means I support life. I am pro-choice that means I support other people's choice about what to do with their self. I don't think I am about to let any one else label me. I think people who are pro-life and want to outlaw abortion or assisted death are anti-choice. Why let them define the argument. It is in that same vane that I refuse to acknowledge the term partial-birth abortion. Why let them frame the argument on their terms. I feel a pro-life person would be against illegal wars, the death penalty, ignoring the economic and nutritional needs of people, and would support adequate health care for all. That is why I consider everyone I know to be pro-life unless they are against those things also. Take back the dialogue and make them defend their positions instead of letting them hide behind labels that they feel make them holier than thou.

[athena]

18. I think it's kind of hard to redefine the term.

The anti-choicers do surveys, and announce that over 50% of American women are pro-life. Then the right-wing-controlled media spread this to every corner of the country. What are people supposed to think when they hear something like this? There is an implication that some women are "anti-life", and that these women are the ones who call themselves "pro-choice". Nobody who is not a serial killer is anti-life. Thus we arrive at the conclusion that pro-choicers are serial killers -- which is exactly what the anti-choicers want people to think. I don't see how you can take back the word without taking back the media.

I think that the solution is to avoid using the term "pro-life" in discussions of choice. Everybody is pro-life, so how is it relevant? When you say you are "pro-life", are you not implying that some people are "anti-life"? If not, then why do you feel the need to point out that you are "pro-life"? The sky is blue; should we also include this in discussions of choice?

[dogman]

21. Bush is anti- life.

How many people did he take personal responsibility for executing while Gov. of Texas? How many people did he kill in Iraq when it was not yet necessary to go to war? There are people who would deny life giving care to people without the money to pay for it. Religious extremists of all faiths kill those who do not follow their views. It's hard but I say we should doit to take control of the debate and stop letting them define the terms. It is like restoring honor and dignity to the term liberal, we have to stand up or be pushed aside as irrelevant. Confuse the polls, confuse the media. Accepting their terms puts us where they want us, out of the mainstream and on the defense. When they say they are pro-life they have claimed the high ground and we are starting at the bottom of the hill. We are watching now as they are allowed to define the term marriage. IMHO-resist!

[Maddy McCall]

14. Uggg. Just saw that other thread. Let me say, YES, there is room for...

people who are pro-life...we all are. Don't let the right label you.

BUT, if you are a Democrat, then you should believe in basic civil rights in all people. You should believe that women controlling their own fertility is a basic human right. You should believe that women and men will never experience true equality in all realms of professional, public, and private life until women can decide for themselves whether or not they wish to spend nine months of their lives at the mercy of the physiological and psychological demands pregnancy. (Men already have that choice).

Choice is a basic human right. If you are Democrat, you should agree that women should be afforded this right.

Otherwise, you are advocating gender hierarchy, and that, my friends, is NOT democratic, neither with the big or little "D".

[Bogus W Potus]

17. Pro-life is a misnomer

So is anti-abortion. While I'm sure that there are a few pro-abortion people in the world, most people are pro-choice. They want to leave the choice up to the woman. I'm pro-choice.

Maybe China's forced-abortion policy could be characterized as pro-abortion, but groups like Planned Parenthood are most certainly not pro-abortion. I know this for a fact because I've been inside Planned Parenthood before and they are very big on birth control. The more birth control you have available, the less chance of an abortion being requsted or necessary.

Pro-life is a misnomer because Republicans claim to care about unborn "babies" while they have no qualms about ordering the deaths of thousands of Iraqi "babies"(including the unborn Iraqi babies). That's right. How do the Republicans know that none of the innocent Iraqi women killed in this war weren't pregnant? I imagine a small percentage of them were.

[Nederland]

19. Pro-choice is a misnomer

Ultimately everyone agrees that there is a point in time at which a human being acquires rights and a women loses the right to determine its fate. The disagreement is merely over where that point in time occurs.

[Touchdown]

22. WRONG! You are for government control of women!

Pro-life is a moral term. Pro-choice is not, and in framing of language, morality always trumps choice.

The real issue, and has always been is Government control of women. Women having reproductive poiwer over themselves, cannot be controlled by the men who want to control them. So they make up this red herring idea of abortion, and "pro-life" in order to retain control over women. Which is what? IMMORAL!

Once you know that this issue of words is NOT ABOUT ABORTION, and never has been, then we can start to develop the language ourselves, on our own moral terms.

[robcon]

23. Nederland is right.

Pro-choice is a meaningless term.

The majority of people would not 'allow' a woman to abort a nine-month old healthy fetus. The state has an interest in the life of the baby. It's a matter of time.. not the simplistic term choice... to decide when the state has a right to intervene.

[athena]

35. I disagree.

It is never OK for the state to put a woman in jail for having an abortion. Not one day after conception, not nine months after conception.

I may have given this example before, but ... suppose a woman falls down a staircase one day before she's supposed to give birth. And someone claims that she did it to kill the foetus. Would you put her in jail for this? How could you ever know for sure whether the woman fell on purpose or not?

The center of the issue is not the foetus, but the woman, who is almost always absent from anti-choice arguments. It is every person's right to decide what to do with his or her body. It is precisely because it's such a basic and natural right that it's so difficult to take it away.

[janx]

26. When I was in my early teens,

my mother explained this to me very well.

This is not only about women's rights. It's about the separation of church and state as well. Some religions teach that life begins at conception, that an embryo, or even a zygote, is a human being. I wasn't taught that way. My mother wasn't taught that way--it wasn't part of our religion; it's not a part of some religions in the U.S.

Not that people who practice these religions like abortion. Nobody does. But it's just that when we get into religious matters like this one, it's best to leave things up to the woman, her doctor and her God--and her husband, if she has one.

The government has no business making a medical or moral decision like that of abortion. Ironic that these "conservatives" are advocating that, no?

(I miss my mom! She was so wise.)

[hippiegranny]

28. "pro-life" is purposely confusing

especially when you realize a huge percentage of those who call themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion rights are also "pro-war." Tens of thousands dead because of an uneccessary Iraq invasion, yet the hysterical anti-choice crowd cannot understand the disconnect.

And before I receive a bunch of angry comments from people who oppose choice AND war, notice I said "a huge percentage" and not "all."

[Fleshdancer]

29. the problem with the abortion argument is.....

the problem is that the opposing sides never share the same conversation.

The pro-choice conversation is about whether the government has the right to control what a woman does with her body.

The pro-life conversation is about unborn babies being killed.

One conversation is rational and political in nature, the other is emotional and philosophical in nature. Two completely different things.

Just my 2 cents

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

31. you are so right...

this is why abortion debates are always futile.

[athena]

33. My view of this is ...

that the rights of a foetus and the point at which life begins are irrelevant. Nobody in this world has any right to take over another person's body, live on its energy, and force it to undergo a painful and/or dangerous medical procedure (or any medical procedure, for that matter). The state should not be allowed to force women to give birth against their will, just as it should not be allowed to force people to donate organs or take part in medical experiments against their will. Donating organs or participating in medical experiments also save lives, but nobody calls it "murder" to refuse to donate an organ or participate in a medical experiment.

[Fleshdancer]

36. I'm behind you 100%

If the subject weren't so serious, I would laugh my ass off at the right wingers who get so indignant with China for limiting the amount of babies a woman can have and yet they think it's perfectly fine for forcing women in America to have babies. Very hypocritical.

And when does it end? Should we force all men who are between the ages of 18-35 to not smoke and wear boxer briefs? After all, being smoke free and making sure the testes don't get too warm is optimal for sperm production.

My biggest point about illegalizing abortion is that it does nothing but make it more expensive for the women who can afford it, and risky and dangerous for the women who can't. But abortion isn't going anywhere.

[Hippo_Tron]

32. Sure you can, it's easy

You can be against abortion but know that it's unconstitutional to ban it, which it is.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. I'm pro-life of the mother

so there.

[beyurslf]

37. I refuse to call anyone "pro life" unless they

are also against the Death Penalty and against the Iraq War. That is a "pro life" stance--while I may disagree with it, I can agree to call them that. Otherwise, they are just anti choice.