Well - I let them have it today

[Skip Intro]

This is a long (really long) post that focuses on an email I recieved (which also included over 100 other "to" and "fwd" email addresses) that pretty much repeated the swiftboat liars for bush ad in email form, as well as my multi-part reply. I posted about this last night, when I was seeing red over the fact that someone I know personally would send such garbage to me. What really pushed me over the edge was the title of the email I recived "KERRY'S SHIPMATES", and the way it ended:

"Please, forward this to everybody on your lists. Voters in the United States of America need to see this article to get a genuine understanding of this scumbag. &! nbsp; Thanks ...."

Yeah, it wasn't enough to slime a decorated war hero, they had to actually come out and call him a "scumbag." It kept me awake last night.

Anyway, I sent off a few "reply all" emails to these people today. I'm hoping not everyone in this "tree" is beyond reason, and averse to fact, and downright full of hate so much that a smear on a man who put his life on the line for his country would be ok with them. But even if they are all a bunch of freeps, they at least know that their bs will not go unanswered. So far, I've gotten two replies, which I'll share after relating my series of replies to the original Kerry-smear email.

Again, this is long, and not at all eloquent, and I'm sure most here have seen it all before. It may be a wasted effort, but it was slow at work today, and I was pissed. Having said that, here's what a little over a hundred people who recently recived the "Kerry is a scumbag" email found in their inboxes today:


====================================
email one: At Long Last - Have You NO SHAME? -

What have we become in this nation when a man who
VOLUNTEERED for service in Viet Nam is called a
"scumbag" by those who support men who either
evaded
combat - like bush, or avoided service all
together
- like cheney?

Is it not enough to simply disagree with the
man's
political views? Must you trash a Veteran who was
awarded medal after medal for his service to our
nation? Do you think our military just hands
these
things out?

Have we really fallen to such depths?

I read the lies, and yes, from the subject line
of
"KERRY'S SHIPMATES" (they are NOT his shipmates)
to
the ending calling John Kerry a "scumbag" - it
was
lies - as you will see, in that disgusting,
hate-filled email. And with each line, I wondered
how I would respond, or even if I would respond.
Obviously, I will.

For those interested in the truth, its coming.
But I
had to express my outrage at the vileness of such
gutter politics.

Do you think smearing a decorated veteran is
patriotic? Do you feel more Christian, somehow,
by
spreading such hate and divisiveness? Is this the
kind of thing that great "uniter" you evidently
support has led you to? Are you proud?

As I said, the truth - the verifiable truth, will
be
coming shortly. But in the meantime, I'll just
ask,
again - at long last - have you No Shame?
================================


================================
shortly after, I sent email 2 (exept for the added links, this is from JohnKerry.com (thanks Will Pitt): John McCain on Kerry's service and the swiftboat ad -

McCain Says It's Dishonest & Dishonorable-Same
Thing
That Happened to Him in 2000.

"Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner
of war
in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's
military service "dishonest and dishonorable" and
urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it
as
well. 'It was the same kind of deal that was
pulled on
me,' McCain said in an interview with The
Associated
Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary
fight with President Bush'."


McCain Tells Says Ad Makers Don't Have Facts.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in
Ohio,
West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by
Stevens,
Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that
produced
McCain's ads in 2000. "I wish they hadn't done
it,"
McCain said of his former advisers. "I don't know
if
they knew all the facts."


McCain Calls on Bush to Condemn It - No Comment
From
Bush

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or
helped
find financing for it, McCain said, 'I hope not,
but I
don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should
specifically condemn the ad." Later, McCain said
the
Bush campaign has denied any involvement and
added, 'I
can't believe the president would pull such a
cheap
stunt'. The White House did not immediately
address
McCain's call that they repudiate the spot." 8/5/04]


Same Tactics Used Against McCain in 2000.

"In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor
campaign
against McCain in the South Carolina primary,
helping
Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's
supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.
McCain
said that's all in the past to him, but he's
speaking
out against the anti-Kerry ad because he believes
it's
bad for the political system. 'It reopens all the
old
wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last
35
years trying to heal,' he said."


McCain Deplores This Kind of Politics

"I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad
is
dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of
these
individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded.
Many
of his crew have testified to his courage under
fire.
I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I
think George Bush served honorably in the Texas
Air
National Guard during the Vietnam War." 8/5/04]


http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/05/kerry.mccain.ap/

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2004/08/05/politics/main634123.shtml

www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/
nation/president/2004-08-05-mcain-ad_x.htm
=======================================


=======================================
email 3 (also from JohnKerry.com): The swiftboat ad - point by point (yes, facts) -

-------------------
Narrator: "Here's what these men think about John Kerry."
-------------------

None of the Following Speakers in This Ad Served on Either of Kerry's Two SWIFT Boats (PCF44 & PCF94). Absolutely NONE of these men served on John Kerry's SWIFT boats in Vietnam. Some of them were in Vietnam at the same time, some of them did serve on SWIFT boats but none of them were on John Kerry's SWIFT boat.

-------------------
"John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
-------------------

-George Elliott was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Was Elliott Honest in 1996 When He Said This of Kerry?

"The fact that he chased an armed enemy down is not something not to be looked down upon but it was an act of courage. And the whole outfit served with honor..."here was no question that it was above and beyond anything that we had seen down there in that case at that time frame...It just so happened that this one was so outstanding that the Silver Star was eventually awarded."

In 1969, Elliott Wrote This to Describe John Kerry's Fitness as a SWIFT Boat Commander:

"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion, while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several KIA. LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program. During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards)."(U.S. Navy, Officer Fitness Report signed by George Elliott; 18, Dec 1969)

Elliott on Presenting Kerry the Silver Star:

He Went "Above & Beyond the Call of Duty."
"The ceremony was meant to be a morale booster,' Commander George Elliot recalled. 'We were trying to pay tribute to Kerry and the others for going above and beyond the call of duty. The Silver Star is always a big deal."



------------------
"He is lying about his record."
------------------

Al French was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Kerry's Not Lying And Neither Are the People That Back Up Kerry's Military Actions:

the U.S. Navy

Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, Commander U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam

Admiral John Hyland Commander in Chief U.S. Pacific Fleet

Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley
the Boston Globe

James Rassmann and the Crewmates of PCF-44 & PCF 94.

---------------
"I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart, because I treated him for that injury."
---------------

Louis Letson, Now Part of the Republican Veterans Efforts to Smear Kerry, WAS NOT the Doctor That Signed Kerry's Sick Call Sheet and Was NOT a Kerry Crewmate

Letson Offers NO PROOF He Treated Kerry.
Despite Letson's claims to have treated Kerry, he is not listed on any document as having treated Kerry after the 12/2/68 firefight. Offering only an account of dates and places-which is readily available in Kerry's biography and media accounts-Lester has produced nothing to verify his treatment of Kerry.

Another Doctor Signed Kerry's Sick Call Sheet.

Regarding Dr. Letson's recollection of Mr. Kerry's wound, Michael Meehan, a campaign spokesman, noted that a different person, J. C. Carreon, had signed the "sick call sheet" summarizing treatment of the injury, and asked, "Who is this guy? How do we know that he was the doctor who treated him?" The aides produced several veterans to attest to Mr. Kerry's bona fides.

Letson Didn't Record His Memories of Vietnam Until Kerry's Emergence in 2003.


"Letson says that last year, as the Democratic campaign began to heat up, he told friends that he remembered treating one of the candidates many years ago. In response to their questions, Letson says, he wrote down his recollections of the time."



---------------------
"John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened."
----------------------


Van O'Dell was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

The Simple Truth: John Kerry was nominated for the Bronze Star by James Rassmann and eyewitness accounts, official naval documents and independent analyses all state that Kerry and his crew were under fire on the day in question.

Official Naval documents available to the public at the Naval Historical Center in Washington, DC and available at www.JohnKerry.com include the after action reports, also known as "spot reports." These reports contain the details of the four boats involved in these actions on March, 13. 1969-including Kerry's boat PCF-94. These reports contain specific details of time, personnel, combat action and even maps. These report specifically detail the boats involved receiving, "HEAVY A/W (automatic weapons) AND S/A (small arms) FROM BOTH BANKS. FIRECONTINUED FOZNABOUT 5000 METERS."

Kerry's injury report for this action, also available at the Naval Historical Center in Washington DC, reads:


KERRY, JOHN F., XXXXXX, USN WOUNDED IN ACTION -
13 March 1969 vicinity of Song Bay Hap, South
Vietnam. Received shrapnel wounds in the left
buttocks and contusions on the right forearm
when a mine detonated close to PCF-94 while
engaged in operations on river. CONDITIONS AND
PROGNOSIS EXCELLENT. RESULT OF HOSTILE ACTION

The Boston Globe, which has repeatedly criticized John Kerry for any exaggeration or misstatement for the past 30 years, did their own investigation into Kerry's military career. The Globe wrote in their book, "John F. Kerry; A Complete Biography by the Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best", that a mine blast threw James Rassmann into the water and made him "a bobbing target as he dodged the bullets whizzing around him."

Eyewitness account from James Rassmann also detail the fact that PCF-94 and other boats were under fire. In March of 2004, Rassmann, a registered Republican who had not seen Kerry in more than 30 years before their reunion in Iowa this year, recalled the following: "Viet Cong snipers fired at him, and Rassmann submerged over and over to avoid being hit. The bullets came from both banks, and Rassmann had nowhere to go. He began thinking his time had come, but the fifth time he came up, he saw the convoy had turned around. Kerry had ordered the boats back to pick up the man overboard. Kerry's boat, under heavy fire, sidled up to the struggling soldier. Rassmann tried to scramble up a cargo net at the bow but was too exhausted to make it all the way. He clung to the net as bullets whizzed past."

Kerry's Bronze Star citation recounts the events of that day and include this sentence, "In addition, all units began receiving small arms fire and automatic weapons fire from both banks." Versions of this citation were signed by the Secretary of the Navy and the Commander of U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam. This citation is available for the public to read at www.JohnKerry.com.



--------------
"His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day."
--------------

Jack Chenowith was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Mysterious Vet Named Chenoweth Appears Out of No Where to Accuse U.S. Navy & Fellow Vietnam Vets of Lying: Its Not Kerry's Account on the Bronze Star Citation-It's the Account of the U.S. Navy, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt Commander U.S. Naval Forces in Vietnam and backed up by Presidential Historian Douglas Brinkley, the Boston Globe, James Rassmann and the Crewmate of PCF-44 & PCF 94.


-----------------
"John Kerry has not been honest."
----------------

Roy Hoffmann was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

"Hoffman acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's claims to valor and said that although Kerry was under his command, he really didn't know Kerry much personally."

Hoffman's Boss Awarded Kerry Silver Star & Bronze Star: "Captain Roy Hoffman" was Admiral Zumwalt's "trusty aide."

This is What Zumwalt Said About Kerry: "KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Former Senator Bob Kerrey Described Roy Hoffman as "The Classic Body Count Guy"

Hoffmann was a cigar-chomping officer who brandished an M-16 assault rifle and wore a revolver when he visited troops in the field. "He was the classic body-count guy," Kerrey says. "Bunkers destroyed, hooches destroyed, sort of scorekeeper."

Hoffman Thought His Rules of Engagement in Vietnam Were "Too Restrictive"

In the summer of 1968, Hoffmann complained to his superiors in Pearl Harbor that the prevailing rules of engagement were too constrictive. "This was war," Hoffmann said in an interview last month. "This wasn't Sunday school." He made what he said was a pro forma request for looser rules, which was granted. Previously, Hoffmann said, military personnel had not been permitted to fire unless they were fired upon. Under the new rules, he said, they could attack if they felt threatened. "I told them you not only have authority, I damned well expect action," Hoffmann recalled. "If there were men there and they didn't kill them or capture them, you'd hear from me."

Hoffman Described by Fellow Vets as "Hotheaded", "Bloodthirsty" and "Egomaniacal"
"Interviews with various Swift boat veterans turned up descriptions of Hoffman as 'hotheaded,' 'bloodthirsty,' and 'egomaniacal'."

---------------
"He lacks the capacity to lead"
---------

Adrian Lonsdale was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Adrian Lonsdale in 1996:
"As far as I was concerned, the war was won over there in that part for that period. And it was mainly won because of the bravado and the courage of the young officers that ran the boats, the SWIFT boats and the Coast Guard cutters and Senator Kerry was no exception."


--------------
"When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."
-------------

Larry Thurlow was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Thurlow's Statements Do Not Fit With History - Says Navy is Lying?

On the day Kerry pulled Rassmann from the water, "Larry Thurlow had maneuvered his PCF-51 over by this time and he hopped aboard PCF-3 to offer assistance. The boat was in shambles but they were still shooting too hard to assess any damage" "BOATS RECEIVED HEAVY A/W (automatic weapons) & S/A (small arms) FROM BOTH BANKS…ALL BOATS AND MSF RETURNED FIRE…PCF-94 PICKED UP MSF ADVISOR WHO WENT OVERBOARD…PCF-94 TOWED PCF-3." http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_March1969.pdf>

Larry Thurlow Even Praised Kerry Despite Coming From Different Backgrounds:
"John was sharp as a tack... But he came from a background most of us couldn't understand."



----------
"John Kerry is no war hero."
----------

Bob Elder was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Kerry's Silver Star Citation:

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 28 February 1969."

Kerry's Bronze Star Citation:
"For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 13 March 1969."

These citations are available for the public to read at www.JohnKerry.com

-----------
"John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam."
-----------

Shelton White was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Jim Rassmann, Says Kerry Risked His Life to Save Him:

"Rassmann was 21 at the time, a Special Forces lieutenant in charge of a company of American and Chinese fighters. On that day, they traveled on a convoy of five patrol boats led by the 25-year-old Kerry, a Navy lieutenant - and they were on the run, being chased down the Bay Hap River by enemy soldiers firing guns and rockets. The group had already lost one soldier that day. As they sped down the river, one boat was blown out of the water, and then another. An explosion wounded Kerry in the arm and threw Rassmann into the river. Rassmann dove to the bottom to avoid being run over by the other boats. When he surfaced, he saw the convoy had gone ahead. Viet Cong snipers fired at him, and Rassmann submerged over and over to avoid being hit. The bullets came from both banks, and Rassmann had nowhere to go. He began thinking his time had come, but the fifth time he came up, he saw the convoy had turned around. Kerry had ordered the boats back to pick up the man overboard. Kerry's boat, under heavy fire, sidled up to the struggling soldier. Rassmann tried to scramble up a cargo net at the bow but was too exhausted to make it all the way. He clung to the net as bullets whizzed past. 'Next thing I knew, John came out in the middle of all this,' Rassmann says. 'I couldn't believe it. He was going to get killed. He ran to the edge, reached over with his good arm and pulled me over the lip.' Rassmann later recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and was upset when the Army instead awarded Kerry a lesser Bronze Star with a 'V' for valor."

----------
"He dishonored his country. He most certainly did."
----------

Joe Ponder was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Kerry's Silver Star Citation:

"His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

Kerry's Bronze Star Citation:

"KERRY's calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service."

These citations are available for the public to read at www.JohnKerry.com

------------
"He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate."
------------

Grant Hibbard was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

Kerry's Crewmates Are "All Fiercely Loyal"

"Vietnam crewmates, all fiercely loyal to John Kerry." (AP, 7/29/04)

Just This Week, General Tommy Franks Came to Kerry's Defense on Sean Hannity's Show.

When pressed by conservative talk show host Sean Hannity, retired General and Former Commander in Chief of Central Command, Tommy Franks believed Kerry's summary of what other soldiers had told him about unfortunate actions by a few U.S. soldiers in Vietnam: "I'm not sure that -- that activities like that didn't take place. In fact, quite the contrary. I'm sure that they did." (Fox News, Hannity & Colmes, 8/3/04)

Pulitzer Prize Winning Series Further Backs Kerry.
In April of 2004, the Toledo Blade was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for their series detailing the atrocities committed by a few American soldiers in Vietnam. The series was based upon the Tiger Force which operated for several months in the Central Highlands of Vietnam. (http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE)

-------------
"I served with John Kerry. John Kerry cannot be trusted."
------------

Bob Hildreth was NOT a crewmate of John Kerry's

But Jim Wasser Was:

"If John Kerry came to us and said he had one more mission and we're going to hell, he'd have a full crew" -- Jim Wasser
===============================================


===============================================
email 4: Kerry vs. Bush - actual documents -



Now let's compare Kerry's medals to those of bush. You bush supporters can go first.
===============================================

The first reply that I recived -

This was in response to the "no shame" email I sent out - the first one...

"Take me off your list and do not send me any more
anti-Bush B.S."

Well, of course, I replied before I complied -

"It was not my intention to send "anti-Bush" BS to anyone.

I was only responding to a disgusting smear of John Kerry who, whether you support him or do not support him, is a decorated war veteran, who, I would think most would agree, deserves some amont of respect for that.

If you wish to ignore facts which threaten your beliefs, that is your right.

If you wish to support a man who is responsible for the deaths of 1,000 US soldiers (and counting) and countless Iraqi civilians - and FOR WHAT??? - knock yourself out.

Some people really can't handle the truth.

I'll take you off this reply group I created from that trash that I recieved about Kerry. And I'll leave you with one last fact that I'm guessing you'll find hard to believe -

Bush is not God.

Good Day to you, sir."

I got a second reply while composing this post. This is in reply to the "swiftboat ad - point by point" email I sent:

"Can you tell me when Bush served as a senator? or Congressman? or in the Armed Forces. Where in the hell did he come from?"

exactly.

Well, I hope I haven't wasted my time, and I hope I haven't wasted your time. I know this - I feel a hell of a lot better tonight than I did last night.

[WilliamPitt]

1. Checkmate

Keep us apprised of the replies.

[canuckybee]

2. Good for you !

[NMDemDist2]

3. kicked and nominated n/t

[ellie]

4. Well done!

I am going to bookmark this post and save it in case someone sends me the same e-mail.

[bunk76]

5. Outstanding.

This ad proves that the republican party have found something lower than pond scum.Is it any wonder the Captain of the ship is a nixon man? I want to thank these people for pointing out to the american people what the republican party is all about.

:evilgrin:

[Martin Eden]

6. wimpy liberal

thou art NOT !!!

Way to let 'em have both barrels, with straight-shooting facts rather than shameful lies!

Even if they are too blinded by the right to see the light, they at least know that we (and you in particular) don't take that kind of crap without a fight.

Way to go.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

7. You CLEANED FREAKING HOUSE. If you get any actual thoughtful

responses, I'd be interested to hear. Thanks for sharing this.

[SidDithers]

8. Eggcelent!

However, you'll be answering replies for the next 2 weeks.

:toast:

Sid

[Karenina]

9. Kick BUTT!!!

:kick: :kick: :kick:

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

10. nu_duer, excellent job.

I'm bookmarking this as well, just in case, I get any crap like that from someone.

I got a somewhat disturbing e-mail from my sister yesterday that she forwarded on to me, but it wasn't about this particular subject. I told her to please not forward anymore drivel. The thing I don't understand is my sister is a public school teacher and the union representative for her school.

I thought she was for Kerry, but I'm beginning to wonder.

[JSG]

11. right on

De-lurking to say thank you and to let you know that I am bookmarking this thread as well.

[merbex]

12. Great Job

You should be proud that you did what you could to stop a lie and a smear.My next door neighbor for the past year would needle me about Kerry's Purple Hearts.
My answer to him was "When you can tell me where Bush was from April of '72 to May of '73 we'll start this conversation."

[DaveinMD]

13. this

was a great post. I just wanted to move it up so I could reference it.