Have the Swiftboat vets for lies finally been discredited?

[coloradodem2005]

I know that it has been revealed that these people have not served with Kerry, that McCain condemned the ad, that these people had their own interests in going after Kerry. But are people still buying this line of crap or not?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. Anecdotal evidence only

I don't know of any polls that really add any insight to this...

[lolly]

2. No Right-Wing Lie is ever discredited

First, because newspapers and newscasts all trumpet the lies prominently; everybody reads the headlines/listens to the "Top of the News" stuff.

When they're proven false, the info runs on the back pages of newspapers, is never even given airtime on TV (see "Sandy Berger stole classified documents in his underwear" story)

Then, even when they they been so thoroughly debunked that even the worst of the "mainstream" news doesn't carry it anymore (see "Bill Clinton fathered black prostitute's baby!" story) the wingnuts just keep repeating it to each other and ignore all evidence in contradiction.

[bryant69]

3. Some of it is hard to discredit

There are two claims, it strikes me, from these Swift Boat people.

1. He didn't deserve his medals. This is been proven false again and again and again.

2. He has a lot of bad personality and character traits (based on their impression of him when he served as a young lieutenent). He was vain or glory seeking or panicky or whatever. Hard to disprove those charges; except to point out that when a man is paid to have an opinion you can count on him having it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[hc110]

9. Hmmmmm.

In fact, as far as I know, these guys never SERVED with Kerry (out of the 10 that served with Kerry, 9 endorsed him, and the 10th is dead..). So, how would point 2 make in that light?

CU
Y

[bobbieinok]

33. no 10th is Steve Gardner, part of swift vets

[Warpy]

4. It seems to be backfiring among Vietnam vets

who realize Kerry put his ass on the line when Bush was chasing Mexican streetwalkers and calling it "service." Even the vets who resented Kerry's testimony before Congress are complaining about this smear.

[Gman]

5. Yes, but

they don't realize it or won't acknowledge it.

[emulatorloo]

6. The Book has "disappeared" from the publisher's website

MrBenchley pointed out in a thread yesterday that the book has VANISHED from the publisher's website. . . .so what's up with that?

http://www.regnery.com/index.html

[JPZenger]

15. Not Yet Available on Amazon

You are correct, the book does not show up on a search of its publisher's website. Amazon.com says it is not yet available. I wonder if it is going through a last minute edit to avoid libel lawsuits.

[ljm2002]

7. Plenty of people are buying it

Don't think that, just because real facts have been presented to discredit the slime machine, that the facts will prevail. We all need to keep repeating the truth at every opportunity.

Yesterday on NPR's Talk of the Nation, about political ads this season, a caller came on and prefaced his remarks with "I just gave $50 to the Swift Boats Veterans for Truth because I was so mad that Kerry lied about his service, it was really only 4 months and he hardly got injured for those Purple Hearts"... I'm paraphrasing from memory. Anyway, it was infuriating, because then his *question* had to do with some technical issue about the ads and who pays for them, so the responder dutifully responded to that but not to the caller's assertion about Kerry's service. In other words, he got his talking point in and it was not rebutted.

About 10, 15 minutes later the moderator made it a point to say in some other context, that Kerry's 4 month Swift Boat tour was actually his second tour (or a second part of his tour that had started on larger ships offshore). Didn't matter though; the damage had already been done.

Don't for one minute think that the truth will stand on its own merits without constant pushing. That's not the climate we live in today. You've got to take every opportunity to reiterate the truth, and even then it's a tossup whether it will prevail.

Remember: most people aren't political junkies like those of us here. Most of them just hear the back and forth of political shows when they're in their cars running errands, or on the way to and from work -- in other words, in passing. So the talkling points stick, and the doubt is planted.

Our job is to plant and nurture the ideas that represent the truth, and stomp the lies. Right now the political garden is overgrown with noxious weeds. No, we cannot expect the flowers of truth to prevail without our active help. That includes uprooting the weeds, not just watering the flowers.

[PatriotGames]

11. Excellent post! nt

[ljm2002]

17. Thanks!

I took a couple days off work, and look what I'm doing with 'em. :crazy:

[Bandit]

26. Your last paragraph is outstanding

"Our job is to plant and nurture the ideas that represent the truth, and stomp the lies. Right now the political garden is overgrown with noxious weeds. No, we cannot expect the flowers of truth to prevail without our active help. That includes uprooting the weeds, not just watering the flowers."

This is it in a nutshell

[realFedUp]

8. From a blogsite following lies...

http://www.drivedemocracy.org/blog/

[Kenergy]

10. The repukes I work with

one of whom is a nam vet, are buying it hook line and sinker.
They swear that Fox news/CNN are trustworthy news outlets.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. So what? They were already voting for Bush, right?

The question isn't how it plays with Bush voters or Kerry voters, but how it plays with undecided voters.

[ljm2002]

18. The question is...

...does it get rebutted, and at the same time the charges are made, and often enough to make an impression with anyone who's paying attention?

Don't you get it? If the lie is repeated often enough, if the rebuttal isn't heard, then the average voter -- who does not follow things the way we do here -- can only assume there's some truth to it.

Just standard psychology.

We need to stay on the attack, and in particular be ready to rebut with the truth at every opportunity. As I pointed out on another thread, where I live a TV station had the following question on their Web site: "Do you think Senator Kerry may be lying about his Vietnam record?"

Now, not only does it plant the very question in people's minds, it's very hard to answer "No" to that question! I mean, if you're a pretty honest person, then you have to admit, almost anyone *may* be lying about anything! Therefore, sure, Kerry *may* be lying... well, you get my drift. Not, "Do you think Senator Kerry *is* lying..." (which would be bad enough!). Nor, "Do you think the Swift Boat Vets for Truth may be lying...". Nope, let us know if you think the Senator may be lying about his record -- even though it is documented, even though one of the very Vets who is speaking out against him, gave him rousing commendations at the time.

It's truly depressing.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

20. Actually that's diffferent from the question of

whether your Republican coworkers believe it, or whether confronting them with the truth will have any effect.

[ljm2002]

22. You're the one who said...

..."The question isn't how it plays with Bush voters or Kerry voters, but how it plays with undecided voters."

My comments were about how it plays with the public at large, including undecided voters. In fact, that is the group least likely to be political junkies and therefore most likely to be listening to sound bites in passing, on their way to doing something else.

And the tactics of the SBVFT and groups like them are quite effective on such groups. Precisely because the truth (or not) of what they say matters little. What matters is getting it out there.

But once they have gotten it out there, it is very important that we rebut and rebut strongly. Not a wishy washy "oh how can they remember after all these years" (since that would apply to Kerry too) but a robust "what they are saying is false. Either Mr. O'Neill is lying now or he was lying then -- which is it? and if Mr. Kerry's medals are suspect, then so are those of every decorated soldier coming back from Vietnam, because they're saying we can't trust our military to ensure that the medals they award are deserved". You get the idea.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. You are talking nonsense

My comments were about how it plays with the public at large, including undecided voters

No, that simply is not true; a false statement.

This was your comment:

The repukes I work with one of whom is a nam vet, are buying it hook line and sinker. They swear that Fox news/CNN are trustworthy news outlets.

That is the evidence you have presented that this is playing to 'the public at large'.

You either aren't being honest, or you are seriously confused.

[ljm2002]

27. "This was your comment:"

The comment that you quote (about "the repukes I work with...") was not a comment that I made. Which must be the source of our misunderstanding.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

28. OK, I'm sorry you interupted my conversation with someone else

and confused me. Mea culpa.

[ljm2002]

31. Yes, mea culpa also

I realized later it could be taken as interrupting... I do that sometimes, just pipe up without thinking too much about etiquette... easy to see how you thought I was the person you were replying to.

[michigandem2]

13. hannity is an ass...

I know that is not NEWS..but he was ranting on yesterday "shouldn't these gentleman be able to speak what they think?" ugggh they so badly want this to go on and on...AND when the guy came back and said "sean how come the guys who actually served with Kerry aren't given the same amount of credit...?" and he ignored the question..its really stupid...but its still burning on the right wing news channels...that and the new "cambodia lie"

[Bush was AWOL]

14. I think it will hurt Bush

the only claim that may have some truth is the Cambodian Christmas story.

[goddess40]

29. Cambodia

I believe Kerry said he was "close" to Cambodia, not in Cambodis.

[Democat]

16. We will not know until some new polls come out

We will need to see polls in the states most likely to be gullible to these kinds of lies.

[TheBigReveal]

19. Got Mike?

Sorry to be off-subject, ColoradoDem, but did you vote today? I've been out furiously campaigning for Mike Miles for months-- you know, that pesky diplomat, counter-terror expert, Army Ranger, teacher/principal guy that the Dem establishment wishes would go away because he's not far enough right?

Got Mike?

[genius]

21. Bush has been discredited. The braindeads will just repeat the lies.

[LuminousX]

24. Not according to the 'Douchebag for Liberty'

[napi21]

25. The Kerry supporters never believed them, and shrub supporters

will always believe them, no matter what proof is presented. Certainly all the liers should be discredited with everything that can be found, but if you think you'll convince the shrubites to change their mind, you're dreaming.

[Leilani]

30. Stupid Wolf Blitzer keeps the story going...

He just had O Neill on, with Admiral Crowe there for Kerry.

Crowe kept pointing out inaccuracies, but he was on the defensive.

It was the worst type of yellow journalism...throw any accusation out there & then make Kerry defend it.

The Kerry Campaign needs to show what is going on, because undecided voters may be swayed by this trash.

[redstateblues]

32. Lanny Davis Just Destroyed Pat B. On The Swift Boat Liars

He's got his stuff together on this issue. Very good- forceful persuasive