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Can we straighten out some terms regarding IWR and Kerry's position?

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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:05 PM
Original message
Can we straighten out some terms regarding IWR and Kerry's position?
There seems to be a lot of confusion here on the level of semantics, among other things. Let me know if you disagree with these:

"Going to war" doesn't necessarily = "declaring" war.

Being "anti-war" on one war doesn't necessarily = being "anti" each and every war.

"Authorizing" doesn't necessarily = bestowing powers that weren't there before.

And the big one:
Voting for the IWR doesn't necessarily = approving Bush's subsequent actions.

"Only Congress declares war!" I keep reading, as though the IWR enabled Bush to do what he did. First, presidents usually just order military action without a formal "declaration" of war, but still use the word "war."

Second, the "bomb now, explain within 48 hours" thing was there already in the 1973 War Powers act, and there was additional clout given to the president in the authorization after 9/11 (public law 107-40) as cited in the IWR.

Third, Bush could have done it without the resolution, and was making noises to that effect before he was urged to go to the UN and insist upon new inspections. The IWR was a way of saying "Congress agrees" for additional clout and unity to back up the "Or Else" part of it. (The "Or Else" had been there all along too, from the UN.) Mostly, I think, it covered his ass, and limited Congress' ability to hold him accountable for misusing his powers, politically if nothing else.

If we're going to have a gazillion threads on this, I'm just hoping we can establish a few facts. Feel free to challenge or correct me on them, but please be nice.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here's my take on his IWR vote
IWR- Was opposing Bush enough? Was that Congress's only responsibility?

My view and my aim is that Bush should be held completely responsible for pushing us into war. From his phony 1441 presentation to his phony briefings which exaggerated the threat from Iraq, to the phony information that his administration hawked in secret briefings with Congress. I don't see the value in allowing Bush to hide behind a congressional resolution that sought to stifle his manufactured mandate to invade and occupy Iraq.

Congress is the lever. The hold the purse strings. But the president has the ultimate responsibility under the Constitution for committing forces. If Bush can disregard Congress's mandate with impunity then what good is there in holding Congress accountable when the president ignores the law? Did the president even read the resolution?

Nothing in there says drop the U.N. and invade. It says the opposite. And he stepped around them.

The resolution was designed to get Saddam to let inspectors back in by backing the 1441 U.N. resolution with the threat of force. Inspectors were let back in and pulled when Bush rushed forward. If Bush had given the inspectors more time perhaps they would have taken the question of WMDs off of the table.

That was the effect of the resolution. Allowing the inspectors to reenter Iraq and proceed with verification. We could guess, but they would verify. Bush pushed ahead of Congress in his invasion. He cut the inspectors off with his rush to invade. No Democrat advocated that, save Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller.

Why did Congress trust the president? What guarantee do we have that any elected official will follow the Law?

When Congress passes a resolution that mandates seeking swift action by the U.N. security council before proceeding, and proscribes working with the international community until it is determined that 'reliance on diplomatic of peaceful means alone" would not force Saddam's hand, that is the law. The president took an oath promising to follow the law.

Thus, as the resolution states:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.


Didn't the president unlawfully disregard these provisions? Don't these provisions represent the restraint that I maintain is implied in the resolution. Isn't this actually a case of the president pushing past Congress, the American people, and the international community in his race to war?

These are the foremost provisions of the resolution that I believe involves the president and his word.

1. Defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq.

According to who? According to what evidence presented. Doesn't the administration have an obligation to present the threat in a accurate and truthful manner? Did they? Weren't they obligated to under this resolution?

Next:

2. Enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

U.N. Res.1441 was negotiated with bogus evidence presented by Powell. But the public still doesn't know the nature or the amount of evidence presented. Some were convinced some weren't. You can see in John Kerry's floor statement that he didn't abide risking the possibility that Iraq might restart a nuclear program, remote-controlled bombers, whatever. That was on the basis of bogus info.

But remember, there were no inspectors inside Iraq to verify anything. One of John Kerry's intentions in the resolution was to pressure Iraq with the U.N. resolution backed up by the threat of force. It worked until Bush pushed ahead and drove them out again. Those who would hold the president accountable are indebted to Hans Blix for his presence there and his candor.

Still some will insist on holding those who sought to reign him in responsible for the sins of Bush. It makes no sense, politically or on the facts at hand, to claim that John Kerry advocated or acquiesced to unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation in their support for the IWR.

The authority to commit forces is not inherent in the IWR. That authority is contained in the War Powers Act which decades of presidents have used to commit forces for 60 days without congressional approval. I believe that Congress would be loath to remove forces after they were committed.

The only input that Congress had to the president's rush to war was a 'no' vote, which I don't believe would have restrained the president, and to attempt to place restrictions on the president's behavior through a resolution.

Principled opposition to Bush's war is to be respected and encouraged. But I reject the argument that those same principles were betrayed in just voting for the IWR.

Some Democrats saw the resolution as a way to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. My candidate was desperate to stifle Bush's argument for immediate invasion and sought to mandate a return to the international table by limiting Bush's authority in the resolution.

Whether or not the resolution had passed, Bush was intent on invading and occupying Iraq. He had gone around for days proclaiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted.

If the resolution had failed, the president I think, would have committed forces anyway as decades of presidents had also put troops in the field for 60 days without congressional approval. In that event, I believe, the Congress would be loath to retreat and remove forces. Then, by law a resolution would have been drawn up, likely resembling the one we have now; urging Bush back to the U.N. and calling for internationalization of the conflict.

That is how determined presidents get us into war. Check and checkmate. It's democracy-lite. It stinks, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to restrain a president from committing forces because of the loopholed prerogative inherent in the War Powers Act, which is referenced in the IWR. I believe that the only way to effectively direct him is through some sort of resolution passed by Congress.

It is possible that a unified front of opposition to the resolution could have turned the public against the plan to invade. But I don't think that was at all possible with the republican majority in the Senate, and in view of Bush's plan to invade with or without congressional approval.

Sen. Kerry and other Democrats didn't feel that the president would be restrained with a 'no' vote. They sought to influence his behavior through the resolution.

Bush's position before, during and after invasion was that 1441 gave him authority to do any thing he wanted to in that region. He wanted cover, but the IWR doesn't give him cover for his unilateral, preemptive invasion. Nowhere in the bill does it mandate what he did.

Bush disregarded the restraint implied in the resolution and pushed past Congress, the American people, and the world community in his predisposed zeal to invade and occupy Iraq.


I am defending John Kerry in this because he gave an informed (misinformed) rational for his vote. Maybe I wouldn't have made that vote. I don't know what lies the administration put before the U.N. and Congress. I do know that John Kerry opposed what the president ultimately did, before and after the vote. He didn't hide behind clipped rhetoric. He was effusive in his complaints. He was clear in his opposition to unilateral invasion and occupation.

I was also opposed to the president's actions; before the vote and at the U.N with Powell's phony presentation (I couldn't believe they bought that load.) I anguished over the vote which threatened to wipe out the Senate Democrats because Bush had taken them to the edge of the mid-term elections.

I listened to the debate. I thought Biden-Lugar and Byrd's outright rejection of Bush's open-ended first draft was superior to the final vote. But I listened to John Kerry's admonitions in his floor speech. He said that he would personally hold the president accountable if he exceeded the restraint implied in the bill.


From John Kerry's Floor Speech Before The Vote:

"I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections. In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days - to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out."
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry...


His presidential bid is a natural extension of his promise. He has been consistent in his aim to remove Saddam with international support. He has deeper knowledge than I as to the true nature of the threat posed. Sen. Kerry is no stranger to the debate over our support of Saddam's regime and the corrupting violence proliferated by Hussein. He voted for the Iraq Liberation Act supported by Clinton which called for regime change. He has been consistent in his concern for the security of the region and for the potential transfer of bio or chem weapons by an unchecked Iraq. His IWR vote was an extension of that concern.

Congress can act, but the president holds ultimate responsibility to follow the mandate of the people as expressed by their representatives. Congress didn't give Bush permission for his preconceived invasion. They acted in accordance with their obligations under the Constitution and the War Powers Act and did not give a blank check.

Congress doesn't seem to have the will to collectively stop this war, even in the face of the evidence that Bush inflated the threat. Two massive funding bills have ratified our mostly unilateral occupation there. I must note that Kerry voted against the $87 billion.

I think this fish rots at the head. Bush must go. John Kerry is consistent in seeking the presidency to ensure that the will of Congress, the American people, and the concerns of the international community are not disregarded in the future.


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Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Amazing!
Extremely well put. This ought to answer any questions that may still remain about this issue. It's unfortunate that the media can't be bothered to uncover the truth in as thorough a manner as is done here. Bravo, Bigtree!
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Thank you
I really like your analysis of how Bush acted against the terms of the resolution. Note also that it requires him to show, following the use of force, his "determination" that:

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

In fact, the invasion of Iraq diverted resources and personnel from Afghanistan.
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. Misskittycat
Can you please review the applicable constitutional provisions and the background of the War Powers Act. I should know this, but I need a refresher course.

Thanks.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. "Reporting" - Section 4
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Misskittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Thanks
Now that I've read it again, it raises more questions than answers.
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Kierkegaard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. Agreed
I've been especially vigilant about this issue, moreso considering the mileage that Smirk seemed to think he got out of it(by lying through his teeth, of course.) Voting to give Smirk the authority to use force isn't a license to act irresponsibly. He did that all on his own. No one is to blame here but Shrubby.
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Kick for the morning crowd
I don't know if it's bad form to kick my own thread, but I'm seeing all the "Kerry voted for the war" stuff this morning, so I thought I'd try again. :)
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