Michigan and Florida.

[ccharles000]

Poll question: Michigan and Florida.

Should we change our party's rules at some time in future because of what is happening in those two states? I hardly ever agree with the repub party but I do think that to avoid this mess ever again we should not take away all delegates but split them in half. I am unsure if we should change the rules right now but at some point the DNC really should think about this rule and if it needs to be changed or not.

[lligrd]

1. No, The Rule Already Is That You Only Get 50%

and that the rules committee can enact further sanctions. Perhaps the further sanctions should be specified. And I do think we should enact rules specifying what actions a candidate must take and feel that all candidates should be required to take their name off the ballot if possible.

[dbmk]

3. Correct

Rule 20.C.1a of the Delegate Selection Plan already states that the default sanction against timing violations (moving your primary up before an allowed date) is 50% and stripping the supers.

Rule 20.C.5 and 6 then specify that further sanctions can be imposed as the comittee sees fit.

So the basis for the poll is a bit misleading.

[WeDidIt]

21. See my post #19 below. n/t

[papapi]

2. Count Florida, boot Michigan, end of story. Period.

[Quantess]

4. But it isn't the voters' faults.

Why punish the voters?

[lligrd]

5. Why Isn't It Their Fault?

Who elected the people who broke the rules?

[last1standing]

8. You're right. Next time we'll all just vote repub.

Do you not realize that we, like you, have limited choices when voting? And how were we to know these idiots would do this?

Please think before blaming the voters for this one. Believe me when I say that there will be consequences for our politicians' actions. The problem is that it will probably mean a repub governor and state legislature.

[lligrd]

10. Good, You Fix That

In the meantime, don't attempt to make the rest of us victims of an unfair counting of votes. It cannot be fair when candidates are not permitted to campaign.

[last1standing]

13. So now you're even willing to eat Obama supporters in this lust for vengence.

I support Obama. What I'm trying to tell you and the other one who thinks it's a good idea to fling insults at the entire voting populace of Michigan is that we didn't fucking know they were going to pull this bullshit till it was too late to stop.

Now if you want to continue your drive to exorcise everyone but the pure of blood from the Democratic rolls, they by all means go ahead. I'll still vote Dem because I know better than to let some anonymous poster with blood in his mouth to chase me away. Others won't.

Michigan is a swing state. It's only those of us who are motivated to get to the polls that keep it turning blue. Because of that, I'd strongly suggest a compromise that doesn't affect the final results.

Or the Dems can go with your suggestion and just lose the election. :eyes:

[papapi]

12. All action has consequences. The voters knew the situation before polling so...

...if they choose to fight back by voting for the other party in their own state, so be it. They're the ones who will have to live with that decision. If they throw the GE then we'll ALL live with it including the Michigan voters. Sometimes people need to rise above the political fray and vote their hearts and minds.

[last1standing]

14. We ALL have to live with the decision if Michigan turns red.

And it's never that far from turning red.

I'll agree that people need to rise above the political fray, one way to do that is it not insult millions of people for the actions of a few. As it stands, we'll probably elect repubs across the board next election because of this debacle. Would you like a repub president to go with that? Easy to do if Michigan turns, believe me, and insults only depress voter turnout.

[Dark]

6. The voters had more than a year, knowing the consequences and they did nothing.

They made their bed, and refused to change the sheets despite a year of warning.

Now, they have to lie in it.

[papapi]

11. No one is blaming the voters. But you must admit that the results are...

strangely skewed in favor of ONE particular candidate whos name was the only choice on the ballot. How can that possibly be fair?

[shaniqua6392]

17. This Michigander wants to say something to you.....

But what I have to say may get me in trouble. Trust me.....it would not have been pretty. But I will just have to withhold all that I wish to say to people like you who think we don't matter.

[papapi]

20. I have my opinion, you have yours. Have it your way.

[shaniqua6392]

24. Thanks...I will retain my opinion

and hopefully get my way. In other words...I hope I will get my vote counted and not be disenfranchised from the process.

[FloridaJudy]

7. Yes - IN THE FUTURE

Right now I see no justification for seating the delegates. When I voted here in Florida it was with full knowledge that my vote wouldn't count, so I voted for the person whose policies I liked best - Kucinich - rather than for one I thought could actually win. And Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan.

Changing the rules now would be grossly unfair.

[progetto]

22. more than unfair,

it's a risk for the DNC of loosing control of the primary process.

While a full seating MI and FL should help unify the party in Denver, it's would also be an invitation for other states to schedule their primaries independently of the party. Absent any consequences, what's to stop them.

A bad thing ?
MI & FL wanted to be more relevant to the process and have an early caucus/primary in the way Iowa and NH do. Unfortunately, if more states move their schedule up, these primaries start to look like a national election. A mega super tuesday. Only candidates with mega dollars and/or national recognition will be able compete.

Personally, I like the state to state campaign. Let's me evaluate the candidates.

[Life Long Dem]

9. So now is the time to fix things?

Clinton is also doing this with another one of her mistakes in Iraq.

[last1standing]

15. No. I think the system worked well. It was just two rogue states that caused grief.

Michigan and Florida were going to pull this bullshit regardless of what rules were in place so I don't think we can blame the SDs. As for splitting them in half or taking them away or any other idea, none of that matters.

The only punishment that will really affect MI and FL without risking the general election too much, is to seat the delegates while ensuring that their votes can't affect the final results. This takes away the power the local politicians were craving but gives them no excuse to come back to their states saying they didn't get to vote.

Anything other than that will break the DNC, and regardless of what anyone thinks of Howard Dean if we break the DNC we break the party.

[MaineDem]

16. Rules have to exist...and the 50% penalty is still an option

My thinking is that the R&B Committee will remove the 100% sanction and reinstate the 50% one. Just how they allocate those delegates is still a question however.

[shadowknows69]

18. Perhaps

Preferably not during the most important election of the new century.

[WeDidIt]

19. Other

I say if a state violates the primary calendar, all delegates are seated and have full votes except in all votes cast for matters related to credentials and all votes for president and vice-president.

In those votes, neither pledged nor unpledged get any vote whatsoever.

Furthermore, no delegate from a state that violates the primary calendar should sit on any committee. If a delegate sits on an existing committee when their state violates, they are immediately removed and replaced with a delegate from a state which did not violate the primary calendar.

[seasat]

23. Other: Completely revamp the primary system

Have a pre-primary with randomly selected regions of states that match the demographics of the US when combined followed by whole state primaries every three weeks with groups of randomly selected states that are diverse in population and demographics. Change the pre-primary regions each cycle and rotate the order of the groups of states. Everyone will eventually get a chance to be among the first. If a state jumps the gun, no delegates.