for evrybody who thinks hillary should be kicked out of the party

[griffi94]

or forcibly removed from the remaining primaries.

how would obama go about accomplishing that particular goal. hillary has the support of just about half the democratic party.
around 20% of her supporters say they won't vote for obama. i've read the arguments that when it becomes evident that he's the nominee her supporters will rally to him. well he's had it all but locked down for over a month and there's no evidence to suggest her supporters will vote for him.

i think if he wants to lead the democratic party, he should probably consider making some horse trades right about now. i've seen a lot posted here about hillarys ego, but if obama can't get a deal struck it's possible his ego is just as bad, or else he's just not a very good negotiator.

for all the gnashing of teeth, and proclamations that the clintons aren't true democrats. what exactly do you think can be done.
obama is going to have to make some concessions and give her some consideration. either that or accept defeat in november.

[mcctatas]

1. It's a silly idea....

for all of my disillusionment with camp clinton lately, I grew up in the 90's and remeber those days fondly....

[Deep13]

2. Well that's the goal, isn't it.

Ostracize any dissenting opinions. Disagreement with St. Obama is a mortal sin.

[griffi94]

9. i'm not sure what i think about that

certainly some of obamas more zealous supporters get their knickers in a twist if you don't share their zealotry.
but this forum is made up of people who are activists and political junkies, or at least it used to be. everybody here is adult enough to understand that neither side can win without the other. that's just a fact. while i understand the obama teams frustration, the reality is that obama needs to start coming up with some acceptable compromise. it's obamas responsibility since he's going to be the nominee. now he can start trying to make a deal, or he can let the situation continue like it is. should he let it continue, he can't really be surprised if he loses in november.

obama is running a near dead heat with hillary, and again with mccain. a divided base isn't going to do anything but elect another republican.

for all the screams about what the clintons should. well what do the obama supporters think obama should do to get this settled. it is after all, in his best long term interest.

[MonkeyFunk]

3. If the Obama fans had their way

she'd be found in violation of the anti-blasphemy laws they'd like to impose.

[JVS]

4. have you looked at national polling between Obama and Clinton? She's slipping.

For her to claim the support of half the democrats in the country is dubious at best. Obama is wise to let her embarrass herself through her actions a bit longer. Most who voted for her, especially early on, were never hardcore Hillary partisans.

[griffi94]

10. ok then

let's say it's not half. let's say she's got 30% support in the party, and let's also say half of her supporters won't vote for him.
he's still not going to win. it's not going to be about all the new converts in new york and boston. obama has to carry some swing states, and he's going to need hillarys supporters to do that.

[JVS]

19. These numbers are pie in the sky. Once she has quit we can get a better read on the situation.

Until then it's in flux. But part of the trend appears to be that as it becomes clearer that she isn't going to make it, more and more of her supporters are drifting over.

[griffi94]

25. hey no offense

but the political strategy you seem to be using is called wishful thinking.
it's the strategy that means the democrats win all the blue states in november, but fail to turn any red states and lose 2 or more swing states and yet still win.

it's along the lines of "of course kerry is going to win. everybody i know voted for him"

all the data up to now shows a very tight race, the fact that obama has a large lead among DUers isn't a reliable barometer, as DU doesn't have any electoral votes to award.

[JVS]

27. These are votes. They are not the numbers of people in standing armies or something like that.

Obama needs to beat McCain. He doesn't need to worry about pleasing a bunch of petulant Hillary fans at DU. Most voters are not going to be diehard about this come november, and Obama is already polling well against McCain. He'll poll even better when Hillary finally calls it quits.

[MyNameGoesHere]

18. not counting MI and FL

16 million have voted for each candidate. Hardly numbers to laugh at or ignore

[JVS]

21. And since she now polls significantly lower than Obama, that means that a lot of those voters...

who voted for her now prefer him. Her "base" is eroding.

[papau]

22. Clinton in this last 5 days polling of Penn/Ohio/FL/Mich is a not "slipping" re Obama or McCain

[Doityourself]

5. I wish no harm on her...just wish after the last primary she goes back to the Senate...

[nomaco-10]

6. Another "if hillary is not the VP, we will lose hysteria....

hillary is owed nothing because of the way she and billy boy have behaved in the primaries.

She can go back to NY and be a senator, that's not too shabby of a job description from what I understand. Or she can run for govenor, she would probably win handily, or she can try it again in 2016. She has many options availiable to her.

My advice to bill, go visit Jimmy Carter. He could give you some really good ideas how to spend your free time. Oh, also, you could give Al Gore a call and ask him what he does in his spare time since he's not in the Whitehouse anymore. Might be a real eye opener to you.

[griffi94]

11. i didn't say a god damned thing about

being veep.
i'm addressing all the obama supporters who have been screaming for hillary to be booted out of the party, or somehow dressed down by the dnc. where in this whole thing does obama fit in. it's his presidential candidacy that we're talking about. so why doesn't he step in and offer some concessions. you know, a cabinet post, support for her as majority leader. something to get her and her supporters on his side.

[nomaco-10]

14. You speak clearly of "concession" and as far as I know....

VP is the only concession option that she's expressed interest in apparently if she can't be prez. And how is suggesting she stay in the senate or run for Governor wanting her drummed out of the dem party?

Geez, no need to get so surly.

[griffi94]

23. a concession can be any number of things

and if he's absolutely not going to ask her to be veep then he needs to find out what she'll take as her 2nd choice.
it could be a particular plank in the platform, it could be his support of some particular piece of legislation. i don't know, but obama should be trying to find out. if he wins in november and gets 2 terms hillary will still be young enough to run in 8 years. it behooves everybody except the repubs to get a deal made.

[JeanGrey]

7. No evidence? Oh just the polls that say otherwise.

[griffi94]

13. yep

according to those polls kerry is president. it's still just about an even split.
if you don't want to believe that, then don't. this was a post that asked what obama should do to wind this up. hillary isn't going to be drummed out of the party, and obama can't win without her supporters. so what should he do.

[JeanGrey]

62. Look, it's over.....after her big mouth today she'll be lucky

she can get elected dog catcher.

[Avalux]

8. I don't think she should be kicked out. I do think she needs to act like a Democrat.

Ever since this whole thing began, Hillary has operated as if she's entitled to the presidency. The Clinton machine guaranteed it until Obama showed up and ruined her party. Now, instead of accepting defeat and operating with integrity, her campaign is trying to blackmail Obama into giving her the VP spot - threating that her supporters won't vote for him unless he does so. Comparing the DNC to the Republican Party when it comes to Florida is really ugly.

Hillary either is or is not a Democrat. If she is, she needs to help the party and put her ego in check.

[SeaLyons]

12. That's funny, I think Obama supporters need to act like

democrats.

[Avalux]

15. I was a Democrat long before I became an Obama supporter.

And I've been a member here for years. If the shoe were on the other foot, Obama would have been told to quit a long time ago.

[griffi94]

20. see there ya go

you don't have any idea what would happen if the shoe were on the other foot, but you've convinced yourself that you do so it's ok to hate the clintons.
the old "we won so fuck you" style of politics isn't going to get her supporters on his side.
this isn't aimed at you, but i really believe that a significant number of his supporters really just hate the clintons. while that's a valid base of support, a deal still has to be struck.

[JVS]

17. I think Clinton supporters need to stop acting like smegma that has been magically...

animated into a facsimile of sentient life.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. Circumcision Or Daily Cleansing Can Rid You Of That Problem

~

[SeaLyons]

58. Whatever!!!

:yoiks:

[griffi94]

16. why doesn't obama check his ego and get a deal made

if he wants to win he's going to have to make one eventually. so why wait. her supporters won't vote for him because they either don't like him, or don't trust him.

[Avalux]

24. Obama has earned the right to choose whomever he wants to be VP.

Why do you think Hillary needs to be on the ticket for him to win the presidency? I see no evidence of that. If her supporters are vindictive enough to withhold their votes (which would help McCain) or even vote for the nutjob; they are allowing their personal shit get in the way of the good of this country.

I don't like Hillary, never have. BUT - as I said, I am a Democrat. I would have voted for her if she was to be the nominee.

[griffi94]

26. i didn't say anything about her being veep

jeez can you people not read. i said SOME KIND OF CONCESSION would have to be made, and at this point obama needs to be finding out what her support and cooperation is going to cost. he's not choosing her as his veep, that's his choice, but now he needs to find out what she's willing to settle for.

[Avalux]

29. No you didn't, specifically.

You said 'a deal made' and with the angling by the Clinton camp, VP is the assumed deal. I do agree concessions will need to be made. Of course if he's willing to pay off her debt, that may be the barganing chip for her exit.

[griffi94]

32. not singling you out

but there seems to be a lot of teeth gnashing over unsubstantiated assumptions.

[Avalux]

33. True.

A result of the general atmosphere here these days. I certainly hope when this is over a healing takes place. :hi:

[griffi94]

35. yeah that

would be good, i'm expecting it to be pretty bad till next spring tho. i don't think the hurt feelings are going to go away when hillary bows out. i think some of her more hardcore supporters will be POed and still snipe whenever they can. i also expect some of the more extreme obama supporters to become disenchanted when he has to start courting the middle for votes, or when he and clinton strike some kind of deal.

[cliffordu]

43. I keep hearing this - If Hill's suporters are sooooo shallow that they

will stamp their little feet and not vote for Obama because she ain't coddled......

What other blackmail are they going to try??

Y'all aren't in any position to throw your weight around in any real way, so stop acting like you have the car keys.

[griffi94]

49. first of all

you're making an assumption that i'm a hillary supporter. you're wrong, but i would guess that by now you're used to being wrong.

the language you use in your posts tells about all i need to know. my guess would be you don't know shit. i'd also guess you don't speak for the obama campaign or the dnc, so whatever hillary gets or doesn't get will be made way above your paygrade.

that's as much as i'm willing to engage your argument. i don't argue with idiots, they pull you down to their level, and then beat you with experience.

[cliffordu]

53. I don't pretend to know shit OR speak for others.

You can always put me on ignore.

[iconicgnom]

28. wow. what a stupid question

:dunce:

[griffi94]

30. wow

what a stupid reply

[Brundle_Fly]

34. looks like 41% to me.

[griffi94]

37. hi

if you mean the percetage of hillary supporters who won't vote for obama, i don't really think all the ones saying that now will stick to it. however i think enough of them will stick to it to severely hurt his chances in november.

[Texasgal]

36. I am confused..

Who wants Hillary "forcibly removed"? :shrug:

[griffi94]

39. just go read thru

gdp you'll find the posts easy enough. i realize a lot of those posts are bs, but i figured i'd at least try to find out what the "anti-clinton or hillary gets nothing " faction of the party thought was a likely course of action.

[Texasgal]

41. I'll look

But really, I read DU atleast 4 or 5 times a day. I'll admit that I don't see EVERYTHING.. but I have never seen what you are describing.

[NewHampshireDem]

60. Oh come on, don't you remember

There was that person with 4 posts who had registered only the day before ... *he* sure wanted Hillary out and thank god the mods stepped in before he got his way because nearly all of DU had fallen for it. But we don't need the mods now because we have the OP to save us from ourselves because who knows what we might do next! :eyes:

[unblock]

38. way to tear down that strawman!

i agree that hillary shouldn't be forcibly kicked out of the primaries or the party.

i'm not clear on who ever proposed such a thing, and highly suspect that if some other poster or pundit did say that, a simple "overstating your position just a tad, yes?" should suffice.

[griffi94]

42. yes that should suffice

but since extremism seems to have the floor, i just thought i'd pose the question."what is likely to happen in reality" not DU reality where hillary gets nothing, and she and bill are run out the democratic party. i'm sure you've seen the posts of that ilk here in gdp.
i just wanted to see what the replies might be to that question.

it's not really a straw man argument unless you're willing to work under the assumption that many obama supporters are actually not very politically aware. since this is a political forum i would expect a majority of the participants to have at least some knowledge of politics. it's not realistic to think the clintons are going to be punished by the dnc. it's not realistic to think hillary will get nothing. she won't be the nominee, and she probably won't be the veep choice, but she has enough horse power to weather a primary loss.

[unblock]

46. there's no precedent for any formal punishment for anything hillary's done

although as a simple matter of power, coming in second usually hurts big.
but she's still a senator and wife of a popular ex-president, so she'll still be an important figure in the party and in the senate.

[tblue37]

40. The idea is nonsense. I am frustrated about her behavior in this primary, but she is a Democrat and

she has a strong Democratic voting record (except for IWR and Kyl-Liebrman). She supports most of the issues I care about, and she definitely belongs in the Democratic Party—and probably in a leadership position. I started off as an Edwards voter, and moved to Obama after Edwards dropped out. But the more I study Obama, the better I like him, and I believe he has it in him to be a new FDR.

But apart from her tendency to go to unfortunate extremes during this primary (and, frankly, after the way the Dems caved when we clearly won in 2000 and 2004, I have to admire her never-say-die tenacity even as I am frustrated that it targets our presumptive nominee), I admire Hillary, and if she were our candidate, though I think her high negatives would doom us and our downticket candidates, I would nevertheless work my ass off to try to get her elected.

I think when the exhaustion and stress of this campaign are behind her, she will have some regrets about certain of her comments, but I also believe she will support Obama and campaign for him, and that her efforts will be not only welcome but helpful.

I wish some of the more aggressive Obama supporters would recognize that Hillary is on our side, even if she is perhaps a bit more conservative in some areas than we might like. I happen to think Obama is also a bit more conservative in some areas than I would like, though I rather suspect that is because he knows that as an African-American man, he has to over himself on the conservative side more than a white male would have to. I also think Hillary's conservative tendencies in this campaign are a way to defuse fears that as a female candidate (and a feminist) she might scare away certain types of voters if she were too openly liberal. I firmly believe that as president, either one would work to undo the damage done by Republican corruption, and to promote liberal policies that put families, children, and human rights first.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

44. exactly

[BlooInBloo]

45. Can you present anyone who said she should be "kicked out" of the party...

or "forcibly removed" from the remaining primaries?

[griffi94]

47. i could if i were willing to dig back thru all the anti hillary threads

but you can do that as well as i can. and besides, i've seen you post in some of those threads so you know the sentiment is out there and being spoken out loud.

[BlooInBloo]

48. So... "no". Thanks!

[griffi94]

50. see my above post

about idiots.

[BlooInBloo]

52. You mean idiots who make claims about people without showing that they even exist?

[Pathwalker]

59. Look for the posters named for a lousy cat food, and

Popeye's rival. They're right here, and have been.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

51. Why would anyone want her out of the party?

She's a popular US Senator.

Some of the things floated around here make zero political sense. x(

[griffi94]

54. that was the ponit of my post

i realize that many democrats are a bit sore from the primary. i had quit posting for a couple of months because it was like the old yahoo message boards. both sides were equally guilty. however since obama is going to be the nominee some of the more rigorous members of team obama have suddenly moved to the forefront. most posting a lot of dumb shit that isn't based in reality. i've read posts calling for the clintons removal from the party, post calling for her removal by the dnc from the campaign, posts basically just bashing in an undetermined direction, all things clinton. my favorites are the posts that state that since she lost the primary, she's not in any position to negotiate. sorry but that's bullshit. she's pulled around 17 million votes and has the support of just about half of the democratic rank & file.

i didn't really expect the worst of the posters to reply to this, and i wasn't disappointed. i was pretty happy with the majority of the replies i did get tho. i was starting to lose faith that there were any people still here who seemed to understand politics at all.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

55. I wasn't disagreeing with your post.

I was just surprised anyone would say they want such.

[Beregond2]

56. Nothing can be done, officially; and shouldn't be.

She has destroyed herself already. Who in the party is going to want to be associated with her in any way in the future? Who is going to be afraid of her now? Every foolish word out of her mouth only makes her more irrelevant.

[Tippy]

57. The DCemocratic Party is all inclusive we don't kick anyone out n/t

[barack the house]

61. That might be extreme I think they are coming round if not there is a mass exodus from repubs.