So how did Father Michael Pfleger mock Hillary Clinton, exactly?

[Elspeth]

I've been busy in RL and haven't had a chance to watch the Clown News Network.

[Elspeth]

1. A recommend but no explanation?

Come'on.

[FARAFIELD]

2. CLASSIC

He "mocked" her by giving the best analysis of her campaign up to this point. Here is the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H11x6bMu4Y

[Elspeth]

4. Thanks for the link

,,

[Elspeth]

7. Just getting started but why does the priest want whites to give up their money instead of

encouraging blacks to make it? To stay in school? To get PELL grants (which are free)? To get good-paying jobs and get their own 401Ks? It sounds to me like the priest is looking for applause lines and not really trying to help.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

40. The average 60 YO with a 401k has less than $50K in it.

You think anyone's going to retire on that? And your comments on good-paying jobs and PELL grants are just comical. Those are things of the past, for people of any race.

[Elspeth]

44. Exactly. So if I give up my puny retirement (and it's puny), how does that help African Americans?

That's why his speech is illogical. If he were speaking to Bill Gates or Oprah, it would make more sense.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

60. Actually, you're right about the 401ks.

They're nothing but a way for the investor class to strip workers of their pensions and safety net and funnel our retirement security to Wall Street.

However, the point he is making is about overall wealth. The average white family has about 10X the wealth as the average black family. That's when you take things like homes and land into account. That's the result of generations of stealing black people's property - Did you know that many lynchings in the Old South were really motivated by that? A white person would decide that he wanted some black person's farm or money and suddenly that black person had spurious charges leveled against him. Fast forward to the last 50 years when black neighborhoods were "redlined" by banks and mortgage brokers. It was a lot harder for a black person to get a mortgage than a similar white applicant. Oh, and guess who were the frequent targets of the subprime lenders of the past few years? Despite the fact that they would have qualified for traditional mortgages, African American borrowers were disproportionately targetted for ARMs with horrible terms.

[Elspeth]

76. But there is no "overall" when you are talking about individuals

And trust me, with the gas and food prices, whatever gap there is between the middle class and the working class & the working class and the poor is narrowing daily.

About "Redlining", however, you and I agree. It's a despicable practice. And the subprime lending? Yes.

But I don't run banks, I don't run mortgage companies, I am lucky to pay all my bills. No matter how much injustice was done, I don't have the money to give anyone unless you want me living on the street.

So, I get the anger, but the solution is not to go after the average person and her puny savings. The best solution I can see is #1: to stop the destruction of the African American community that has been occurring due to both the drug gangs and the drug wars, both of which keep African Americans in the penal system. This would require the government, the CIA etc. admitting that they are using our tax dollars to destroy human beings in our own cities. THAT is the moral good we should continue to fight for.

So I guess what I mean is that I have a hell of a lot more respect for Gary Webb that for this little priest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Webb

[mrreowwr_kittty]

89. Okay fair enough, but why tar Obama with him?

Surely you realize that a brilliant, Harvard educated Constitutional scholar and statesman is able to listen to people like Pfleger and Wright and separate the wheat from the chaff. I am confident that Barack Obama is thoughtful and independent-thinking enough to take what is good from those preachers and leave the rest, and I hope you are too. Elsewhere on this thread you brought up the tired talking point of "he listened to him for 20 years!", so do you really think Obama is incapable of putting sermons into perspective?

[Elspeth]

93. Why would a brilliant Harvard educated Constitutional scholar hang at this church?

That's my question.

Not trying to tar him either. More curious about this priest and his desire that I give up my puny retirement to make everything ok in America.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

96. Maybe because he heard a lot more besides the soundbites snipped by FOX News?

You should listen to Rev. Wright's sermons in full sometime. You might learn something.

And I say this as an atheist.

[Elspeth]

107. Even if that's all he heard, shouldn't that be enough for him to turn tail and run?

Seriously.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

109. Quite frankly, no.

Even the absolute worst of what Wright or Pfleger have said is nothing than anyone who wasn't a racist with a guilty conscience would find offensive. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

[Elspeth]

112. So if I find this priest's mocking of Clinton offensive, I am a racist?

That's an awfully broad definition.

And it's this kind of tarring with a broad brush that I find so problematic. If you think that all white women who support Hillary Clinton are racists, and you let that attitude show, how do you expect them to back your candidate? You're insulting a group that you need to win.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

121. You're assuming that all white women who support Clinton find it offensive

Also applying a broad brush. How do you know how every single white woman who supports Clinton feels about the preachers at Trinity Church? Maybe a lot of them are like me, in that they realize that clerics tend to engage in hyperbole and that it doesn't reflect on a politician who listens to them.

Why don't you address Hillary's creepy prayer cult, Doug Coe's Fellowship, since you can't seem to get your mind around the idea of people being separate from their preachers?

[Elspeth]

183. The polls bear me out on this one.

It is the female Hillary Clinton voter who IS insulted.

[GCP]

201. This white woman HRC supporter is insulted

[Elspeth]

213. I guess that makes two of us :)

And all the others...

[Fla Dem]

220. Make it 3 n/t

[Elspeth]

221. :)

Thanks

[blonndee]

128. Did you find this mocking of a Democratic candidate and his supporters offensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1ckrEeHDRY

Since this was an actual CANDIDATE doing the mocking, and not some "villain-by-association", especially.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

153. Of course not, silly.

Nor was it a problem when the union guy called Obama supporters a bunch of latte sipping trust fund babies. See, when Hillary Clinton or a surrogate mocks people, it's just nice white people using humor to point out the truth. When anyone with any association, no matter how tangential, with Obama mocks wealthy white people or mentions that they might be slightly more advantaged than everyone else that is horrible scary reverse racism and is certainly not funny!

Glad I was here to straighten that out for you.

[Elspeth]

186. See, this is what I mean, catburgler.

You make assumptions, stereotype me in some way or another, and then you respond for me. And yet, we agree on the essential argument that privilege is multifaceted.

[Elspeth]

184. That wasn't the question.

The question was if I am offended by the little priest mocking Hillary Clinton, does that make me a racist? I am trying to figure out what connection there is between not liking mockery of my candidate and being a racist.

For your question, I'd actually have to watch the video and see what I thought. At some point, I'll do that.

[Mudoria]

198. And why is he brilliant?

[Elspeth]

206. I assume that's about Harvard

...

[Girlieman]

218. Why would a brilliant Harvard educated Constitutional scholar hang at ANY church?

Just a question.

[Chisox08]

138. He was talking about those multimillionaires who were born into wealth

Who says that they have nothing to do with enslaving blacks as their ancestors did but they reaped the rewards of the wealth that was built up generations ago.

[iamthebandfanman]

193. i dont see whats so hard to understand

about that either. its true also.
he hit hillary right on the nose.

[Elspeth]

209. No he didn't. He may, however, have hit himself right on the nose.

...

[Elspeth]

207. No, he was talking about all of us, not just multimillionaires

...

[undeterred]

203. I just watched it

and yes he did.

[trueblue2007]

3. Father Michael Pfleger is a racist pig

and YES his ranting and raving was racist!!!!

He's a supporter of Obama? Oh my gosh....Obama doesn't need pigs like this stupid priest.
Man of God....no "Father" Michael Pfleger is a MAN of the devil.

This Pfleger is a hateful....hateful man.

Look at these videos on YouTube!!!
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Father+Michael+Pfleger&search_type=

He is a nut case.

[Elspeth]

10. Actually, why does no one call Pfleger on his caricature of inner city African American speech?

His performance looks a lot like minstrelsy to me.

[spoony]

144. Spot on!

It was SO uncomfortable watching him doing an impression of the stereotypical black preacher. Apparently he doesn't respect their church enough, or black people enough, to consider going deeper than that shallow, ugly performance. I can't believe they didn't throw him out on his frocked arse.

[Elspeth]

208. It seems you're the only one that agrees with me

I cringed as I watched him.

[trueblue2007]

16. look at this creepy priest

here are his YouTube videos.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Pastor+Pfleger&search_type=



He still supports that other Trinity minister....the horrible Jeremiah Wright.

[Elspeth]

22. He's got the patter down.

That's for sure.

[anigbrowl]

17. I don't find it racist. I guess I'm one of those self-hating white people or something.

I actually think inherited wealth and privilege is responsible for a lot of the economic disparities in this country.

[Elspeth]

19. It most certainly is--for the top 5%.

The rest of us are struggling. Notice how many DUers are in tough financial straights right now, and things are getting worse for everyone, despite color.

Remember, the top 1% live on trust funds. They don't 401Ks. Only the middle class does.

[NotThisTime]

20. I happen to agree with you.... entitlement does something to a person

[MadBadger]

37. He was right about her sense of entitlement, but not the reason for her entitlement

The reason isnt because she's white, its because She is a Clinton, and Obama is some inexperienced jerk who is coming between her and the nomination.

[Elspeth]

46. Even before the delegates were sewn up--way back in Jan and Feb--Obama's folks wanted Clinton to

step aside. Barack has quite a feeling of entitlement, don't you think.

[Beacool]

126. Hmmmm, "inexperienced jerk"...............

sounds about right.

:D

[FlaGranny]

132. I actually laughed out loud.

He was doing a stand-up routine, pure and simple, and it was no different than the thread earlier with all the Clinton cartoons in it - same themes. I have no idea what his "sermons" are like normally. I found it a bit much for church, but what do I know - I don't even go to church. :-)

[Phx_Dem]

24. How is a white man

talking about a white woman racist? FYI. They're the same race. That just doesn't even make sense.

[Elspeth]

27. A white man pretending to be an African American preacher seems like minstrelsy to me

...

[Phx_Dem]

39. Uh huh

A Catholic Priest is "pretending" to be a black man. Okay. :eyes:

I'm not defending this guy. What he said is not something I would ever defend but, by definition, he is not be a racist.

[Elspeth]

41. Yep. Listen to the speech patterns and the cadence.

...

[Phx_Dem]

48. I'm not going get into an argument with you

about this because, quite frankly, your comments border more along racial lines than his. To classify someone as "black" based solely on their speaking style when they are, in fact, white could be construed as racist. I'm not saying you're racist because I do not believe that you are, but your argument is not valid. Have you ever seen white Evangelical or Pentacostal preachers? Many of them are exactly like that. They're flamboyant and, oftentimes, just plain nutty.

It does seem out of character for a Catholic Priest and, frankly, not very Christian but that's a different discussion. I think we agree that he was way out of line. Let's leave it at that.

[Elspeth]

51. No need to get into an argument. I studied about minstrelsy as a political weapon in college

so maybe it's just more obvious to me.

[Phx_Dem]

54. Okay.

We agree to disagree, respectfully. Peace.

[Elspeth]

59. Peace back.

I know this place is a mosh pit so I appreciate your civility.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

73. Then you should get on Bill and Hillary for doing it too.

They've both lapsed into "preacher talk" on more than one occasion.

[Elspeth]

211. Not with this kind of complete caricature, I'm sure. This preacher was embarassing to watch.

There's a difference between style and caricature.

[chascarrillo]

147. So a white guy used mistrelsy as a political weapon... against whites? How's that work?

Sigh.

[Elspeth]

200. Thanks for missing the point.

:)

[The Magistrate]

42. He Is Very Well Known Locally, Ma'am, And Very Popular

He was parish priest of Black parish with an excellent school, and led street protests against ready sales of drug paraphernalia, blanket liquor advertising, and 'take back the night' night style community demonstrations against violence. He can be pretty strong in his speech, and the Archdiocese disciplined over something, but the details escape my immediate recollection. He is a good fellow, and for me to say that of a priest is worth noting....

[SeaLyons]

159. so what caused his tirade?

He is a good fellow -

[elehhhhna]

174. thank you for posting that, Mag. You said it better than I could have...

Father P is a GOOD GUY. If he gets silly during a sermon, fine by me. His actions speak volumes about his commitment to Chicago & it's lesser-served communities.

[Elspeth]

210. But in this one video, he has undone so much good that he may have done.

And the video seems to imply that his popularity may be due to pandering to the hate in his audience.

[elehhhhna]

216. sometimes the truth hurts. i'm sorry.

[Elspeth]

219. What truth is that?

Seriously.

[Chisox08]

139. Father Phleger isn't pretending to be anything

From the moment he started his ministry at St. Sabina's he has fought for the people on the impoverished South side of Chicago. Just as Obama and Rev Wright did. They spent years trying to build up a community that didn't feel the economic boom of the Clinton years and was torn to shreds in the Bush Depression. He is fighting for tougher gun control laws in Chicago and to end violence that has plagued the neighborhood that he ministers in. He saw the plight of the community that surrounded St. Sabina and he is working to improve the lives of the poor people in Chicago

[iamthebandfanman]

192. ohh, so now hes a white guy pretending to be black man.

whats next, gonna start calling him a 'white nig@#!' ?

i see where this is going.

[Elspeth]

214. No, you missed the point as usual

But then, I fail to be surprised anymore.

[barack the house]

224. So what is Eminem, &, Elvis did the blues it's more impresonation is the highest form of flattery...

As seen with the standingovations. They knew what he menat there were very few lies in what he said.

[psychmommy]

52. he is speaking of privilege not prejudice.

he can speak of this because he is white. he can speak of it because he aware and doesn't try to pretend it isn't there. a caucasian friend explained to me that most whites won't admit there is white privilege because then they might have to give it up. then they can no longer blame minorities for not pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.

[Elspeth]

57. Tell white single mothers living on food stamps how privileged they are compared to Obama, who

went to Ivy league schools.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

75. Tell the welfare caseworkers who treat those women better than their black counterparts.

This is documented. Tell that to the media who consistently portray welfare as a black issue, despite the fact that 70% of recipients are white, so as to advance the conservative agenda through racebaiting, as well.

[Elspeth]

77. Once again, why should these women feel privileged compared to Obama?

?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

94. I don't think they should. Not at all.

But for some reason, racebaiting seems to work on a lot of poor white people. One only has to look at the results of the WY and KY primaries, and the articles interviewing average white voters in those states, like the ones who say they will vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee, to see the truth of that. It's not Obama's, or any successful black person's, fault that some white people are hellbent on screwing themselves just to keep those uppity colored people in their place.

[Elspeth]

118. Your answer is not really related to my question.

I am telling you that privilege is multifaceted. Obama's color is proving to be less of a handicap than Clinton's female gender. In other words, gender is probably a worse problem overall than color. You may disagree, and certainly women can marry men with more privilege than they have and gain some false sense of privilege in that way, but a woman alone and of herself is far more likely to be poor (with kids) and less privileged than most males

[mrreowwr_kittty]

122. "Obama's color is proving to be less of a handicap than Clinton's female gender."

Bullcrap. I am the last person on earth to minimize sexism, but you cannot claim that Hillary Clinton is losing purely because of sexism. She was absolutely subject to ugly misogyny, as is every woman who aspires to any position of leadership. Or any other woman for that matter.

However, she also ran a colossally crappy campaign, and squandered the considerable advantages she had, as in name recognition, being the spouse of a popular ex-President, fundraising prowess, etc.

And if you think being black (not to mention having HUSSEIN as a middle name and OBAMA as a surname) is not a handicap to Obama, you are nuts.

[Elspeth]

157. I stand by my statement. And the statement that privilege is multifaceted.

You have completely missed the complexity behind the argument. But that's not unusual for someone who name calls "white supremacist" to people who point out other legitimate sides to an argument.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

161. Says someone who mocks Obama for his father leaving.

You really are a piece of um...work.

[Elspeth]

164. No one mocked Obama or his father. Just stated a fact.

You took it as some kind of insult. But that makes sense considering the fact that you insult people routinely. You figured that I did what you do all the time. You were wrong.

[psychmommy]

79. whatever.

there is white privilege, sorry you can't admit it. but, comeon admit it you feel like your better than me a black single mom. men look down on you and you look down on us. my mom had an issue with a young white female on her job. both were poor and struggling. the girl told my mom to stfu you black bitch. my mom said back off you pwt. she said i amy be poor white trash-but i can always make more money. you will always be a n----r. privilege has nothing to do with money ask the people in west virginia and kentucky.

[Elspeth]

82. Privilege is not just about color: it is about gender and social class, too.

Right now, we are seeing this play out in the election. For all Hillary CLinton's whiteness, it hasn't been enough to counteract her gender. Whereas, with Obama, his maleness has been enough to counteract his color.

Privilege is multifaceted, and when you argue it simplistically, you miss the real story.

[psychmommy]

149. had hillary conducted a 1/2way decent campaign

she would probably be the nominee. she had name recognition-which is a positive for the dem primaries. although i am sure there are some who wouldn't vote for a woman-it wasn't her being a woman that sunk her campaign. she had everything going for her in the beginning. she squandered it. it takes more than privilege and smarts to be potus. thus hill is on the sidelines like the rest of the rest of the very good candidates.

[PaulaFarrell]

101. would that be white single mothers living on food stamps

just like his own mother did?

[Elspeth]

120. So the daddy bailed, eh?

Hmmm

[mrreowwr_kittty]

152. Tell us about your family, Elspeth.

Are they a bunch of white supremacists?

[Elspeth]

155. Obama's daddy left. Mine didn't.

Does that make me a "white supremacist?"

[mrreowwr_kittty]

160. Obviously, he didn't raise you very well. nt

[Elspeth]

162. Back to personal insults. This means you don't have an argument.

Why can't you use your brain? Why is it always some knee-jerk Anne Coulter type of reaction with you?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

163. So says the woman who is mocking Obama for his father leaving him.

Tell me, do you always it amusing when children are abandoned? Does it give you a smug sense of superiority when you meet someone whose father left them as a child?

[Elspeth]

165. You misinterpret a response and then you insult people.

Why don't you try to use your brain instead of just doing the name-calling thing.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

166. I didn't misinterpret a goddamn thing.

And I predict that your trolling ass will be tombstoned fairly soon. Yes, I'm calling you a name, troll.

[Elspeth]

167. Yes, you did. Now you accuse me of being a troll and say I will be tombstoned.

You have no argument. Instead of sticking to the issue, you get personal, nasty and insulting and call me a "white supremacist."

Why can't you actually argue the issue?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

168. What the fuck is your argument?

"OMG!! Another scary preacher in Obama's church!! This one is white but he said mean stuff about white people!! I'm all confused now!! Hold me!!" :scared:


:eyes:

[Elspeth]

170. The argument is that privilege is multifaceted. Different types of privilege intersect.

Color, gender, social class (among other things) intersect to create differing levels of privilege. The assumption that most people make is that color is the biggest obstacle to privilege. But this election has demonstrated that gender is a far greater obstacle even when the (white) color is assumed to create privilege.

This little priest in the video is assuming only the privilege of whiteness. His own church, on the other hand, allows male priests of all colors but will excommunicate any woman who tries to be ordained, despite any privilege conferred by color. So being a man of color is not an obstacle at all to the priesthood but being a woman--even a white woman--is a total barrier.

Many males (and some females) view the presidency the same way: being a man of color is less of a barrier than being female. And I haven't even begun to talk about social class and education.

If you only see color, you miss everything else.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

172. You're right. Privileges intersect.

But Hillary Clinton still ran a suck-ass campaign and THAT is why she is losing.

[Elspeth]

173. Then why are you calling me a "troll" and a "white supremacist" when you agree with my argument?

?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

176. I didn't call you a white supremacist, I merely asked if you had them in your family.

I was just curious about what happened to you in your childhood. Kinda like you were doing with Obama and his father leaving him. It was just a question! :shrug:

Anyway, I think I'm making it clear that I DON'T agree with the part of your argument where you contend that the results of this election prove that Clinton's gender is more of a barrier than Obama's race. She definitely faced sexism, as do all women, but she lost because of the massive ineptitude of her campaign team.

[Elspeth]

179. OK.....(response in text)

First of all, you weren't "just curious." You asked the white supremacist question because you were attempting to put a blanket label on a person you didn't understand, and you were hoping that others would assume the same. It's like a stink bomb--it might not hurt a person physically, but it creates a nasty odor around them.

Second, the issue of Obama's father was new to me, and interesting. I did know that he lived with his maternal grandparents in Hawaii, but I did not realize his Kenyan dad had left. Regardless of his bio-dad leaving, he had strong role models in his grandparents.

The single mother aspect came up because I stated that a white single mother on food stamps or working at Wal Mart was far less privileged than Barack Obama with two Ivy League degrees and a political career helped along by Ted Kennedy. It was part of my general point that one cannot see privilege as just a color issue. Many factors intersect to create privilege. In the example of the white single mother vs. Barack Obama, Obama is CLEARLY the more privileged despite his color.

I extended my argument to Hillary Clinton because Clinton has been a clear victim of her gender in this election. The use of the c-word and the b-word, among many other things, make it clear to women that gender is still an obstacle of great proportions. Obama, on the other hand, has never been referred to (on this board or in public) by terms disparaging to blacks. (And I'm sure know more of them than I do. I was raised never to use them.) His color is more than mitigated by his gender, but Clinton's gender undoes her color privilege.


That's my argument and it is based on what I have watched here and in RL. What kind of campaign was run and how well or badly it was run is not at issue. Candidates win and lose for all kinds of reasons. But my concern is the public discourse around both candidates and how the discourse about the female candidate is so "no holds barred" (to the point of profanity) about her gender, while the discourse about the black candidate's race is very careful and controlled.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

185. You know, the "white single mother on food stamps" thing has more impact

If you add "from Appalacia" to it. Just a little tip for you, for future reference.

And if you don't think that Hillary Clinton had had some pretty substantial advantages coming into the race, ones that eclipse anything Barack Obama might have had, you are mistaken. She was ahead of all her competitors by more than 20 points for most of last year for god's sake! She surrounded herself with incompetent people and they assumed she would wrap it up by Super Tuesday so they didn't plan beyond that. That's not to deny that there hasn't been ugly misogyny directed at her, but at some point you have to realize that not everything that went wrong for Hillary is the direct result of sexism. Also, her losing is not evidence that Obama doesn't face an appalling racism. Read some of the interviews of WV and KY voters. They're hair-curling.

Oh, and BTW, dog whistles, innuendo, and euphemisms get the message across to the intended audience just as effectively as blatant slurs. Why do you suppose Hillary Clinton found it necessary to insert Louis Farrakhan's name, apropos of nothing, into that ABC debate?

[Elspeth]

190. I didn't add "from Appalachia" because I was making a point, not a snark.

And your snarking back means I won my point, so I'll move on.

Re: Hillary Clinton. It is good to see that you understand the "ugly misogyny directed at her." That means we are both in the reality based community to a certain extent.

Now, as far as her advantages going in, she DID have the money, the delegates, the frontrunner status. She also had the disadvantages of being a Clinton (and all that baggage from her husband's administration and the hatred of the religious right and Limbaugh crowds); the disadvantages of a being a Senator with a track record, especially on Iraq (Obama benefited from not having had to vote on the authorization bill, having been in the state government at that point); the disadvantages of running after a second "Bush" (people here were worried about a Clinton-Bush "dynasty:" Check the archives); and the disadvantage of being female running for an office which is seen as the province of males.

A lot of the Clinton negativity started on the left, with the anti-war base (who sees Clinton as an Iraq war supporter) and the anti-dynasty folks (who saw Hillary Clinton as part of Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton), as well as those who worried that a Hillary Clinton candidacy in the GE would bring all the Republicans to the polls, despite their disenchantment with GW Bush and their lukewarm support for McCain. These reasons were all legitimate, but not all of the people who were opposed to Clinton were principled and diplomatic in their arguments. Some people holding these positions went straight to bashing, and gender bashing.

So Clinton, unlike Obama, already had problems with the Democratic base coming in. So, it's not factually correct to talk about her having all the advantages; she didn't. Obama had more advantages because of his LACK of a track record on Iraq (he can say whatever he wants about that vote; he didn't have the ability to cast it back then); he benefited from being something NEW, not a Clinton (so no dynasty problems); and he benefited by having no previous national political history and no overt negatives. His race, while a potential negative in the GE, was actually a slight positive in the primary with a lot of the party base; not all of it, of course. Now what happens in the GE will be different, and I expect race to become more of a negative then.

So in essence, Barack Obama clearly benefited from being a very junior Senator (no Iraq vote) and from being NOT-Clinton. He also benefitted with a lot of the party base by being African American: 90% of the black vote went to Obama. African Americans are about 20% of the Democratic base.

In addition, Obama benefited immeasurably from Ted and Caroline Kennedy's support (that's incalculable support) and from his Silicon Valley folks who developed a whole social networking campaign for him.

So all in all, I would look carefully at the positives Obama had going in and at Clinton's negatives.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

196. You do realize that Hillary Clinton had about 60% of the black community supporting her last year

So you can hardly call that a benefit that Obama came into the race with. Black voters don't automatically vote for black candidates, just ask Al Sharpton about that. He got 20% of the black vote in 2004. Nor did Obama come into the race with the support of people like the Kennedy's. He earned their support several months into the campaign. This is not to say that Obama didn't start with certain advantages, nor that Clinton didn't have disadvantages from the get-go. But she was still 20 points ahead in national polls for most of last year. The race was hers to lose, and she lost it.

And quite honestly, I'm as proud of that as a woman as I would be if she'd been successful. Hillary Clinton made history by being the first viable female Presidential candidate. She failed. So what? Men try big things and fail at them. All the time. IMHO, the biggest thing that hobbles women's ambition is this ridiculous notion that we must succeed the first time we attempt anything. We'll know that equality has been acheived when an individual woman can screw up or be lazy or mediocre or whatever and it's no bigger deal than if it's a man.

[Elspeth]

199. That was before Obama became a serious candidate

Once the black community realized that Obama was a serious candidate (unlike Al Sharpton who is sort of the black Dennis Kucinich), the vote switch was a done deal. I have watched politics for years and knew that it was coming. My African American friends were very much about voting for Obama and no one else, way back in December, before the primaries. So I was not surprised at the numbers.

But insofar as Hillary Clinton's negatives are concerned, you have completely ignored them. You pick the parts you want and ignore the rest of the story. It was not Hillary Clinton's to lose: she had a head start in funding and superdelegates, but much of the base was against her early on, and for things over which she had no control, like being a Clinton or being part of a dynastic succession (See my post above). If you lose the base, you lose the primaries.

[Elspeth]

191. Response below

....

[ElsewheresDaughter]

83. maybe this will make it clearer for you

Father Pfleger has a problem too. It's called "white guilt" and stirring up these divisive feelings to cleanse himself only makes it worse, while hitting the man he's trying to elevate, Barack Obama, on an issue that could scuttle the historic candidacy he embodies.

Father Pfleger isn't adding anything healing or offering a bridge between the races. He's grandstanding. He's obviously also overcome by his own self-loathing. Whites can be racist too.

[Elspeth]

85. Wow. I didn't think of this.

..

[Beacool]

129. Hear, hear!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't have said it better. Furthermore, why was he talking like an AA preacher? When I heard the clip on the radio I thought that he was black until I saw him tonight on TV.

Regardless of race, the guy's performance was deplorable and divisive. It will only serve to reinforce the split between the party and those who already distrust Obama and his dubious associations with certain types of people.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

154. ElsewheresDaughter: "Whites can be racist too."

I'll just let that comment stand on it's own. :wow:

[JVS]

217. You learn something new at DU each day.

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

99. LOL

[lumpy]

171. Pfleger is a jackass clown with an inflated ego.

ugly man

[grannylib]

5. I just saw a clip of it, and this is a rough paraphrase:

"It's MINE! My husband had it and I was supposed to step into his shoes and now there's a BLACK MAN trying to take it from me when I'm ENTITLED! Where did HE come from??? Waaaaaaahhhhhh!"

As I said, rough paraphrase. Obama campaign released statement about it; not sure what the alleged connection between Obama and this pastor is, I had never heard of him before.

[otohara]

6. Had Obama Heard of Him

before, or is this guy new to him?

[rug]

12. Obama steered $225,000 in grants to his church.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0705030035may03,0,7803217.story

[Elspeth]

14. Ah....

Oh well.

[Jersey Devil]

28. He's a Catholic priest from Chicago

Of course he steered money to "his" church. He probably steered money to a lot of Catholic churches in Chicago.

[rug]

31. Which ones?

[Jersey Devil]

How the hell would I know?

You think maybe I am the Great Carsoni?

[rug]

47. Maybe because you said he probably did..

I keep forgetting these tight GDP standards.

[Elspeth]

53. LOL. Yeah, opinion=fact in this place

I don't think some people know the difference.

[Jersey Devil]

58. Well, I do know that Catholic churches get grants of all kinds

Most of the time it is for doing things like operating food kitchens, bringing meals to needy people, helping shelter homeless people or battered women, etc. It is cheaper for govt to give grants to them instead of government doing it themselves. It is no secret that the Catholic church all over the country does these things and gets grants for doing it.

As for the priest, he sounds like an idiot, but it is not "his" church. No priest has that kind of relationship with his parish in Catholicism.

[Elspeth]

61. But a general knowledge isn't specific evidence, unfortunately

It would be nice to see what kind of grants Catholic churches get anyway. If you find out, let me know. I'm curious.

[Jersey Devil]

71. Here's a start (edited)

http://www.usccb.org/comm/cip.shtml

Catholic Charities USA – the network's national member service center – was founded in 1910 as the National Conference of Catholic Charities. It provides its members a national voice, networking opportunities, training and technical assistance, program development, and financial support.

The organization has also been commissioned by the U.S. Catholic Bishops to represent the Catholic community in times of domestic disaster. For example, Catholic Charities USA allocated more than $31 million in grants to 25 local Catholic Charities agencies for September 11 recovery efforts. These grants — which came from $31.8 million donated to Catholic Charities USA for September 11 disaster assistance — continue to help local Catholic Charities agencies respond to economic and emotional needs of victims more than two years after the tragedy.69

Got to about the middle of the page at the link for more info

[Elspeth]

78. So Catholic Charities USA sends grant money to local chapters...

Was the grant money Obama steered toward this priest from Catholic Charities?

[Jersey Devil]

102. They give AND get grants

Read further. Catholic Charities gets some of the money it gives from grants.

Look, I don't know any specifics about this particular catholic church, but as a Catholic and a former town government member I know that there are all sorts of grants going to churches from governments and private foundations. Unless someone has some information that the grants to the church in question were not proper I can't see why anyone would have to explain anything

[Elspeth]

104. Ok, thanks

I think the problem is that Catholics charities gets grants to help in their mission of helping the poor. If that money went to anti-choice sermons, then I would be very upset.

[Elspeth]

32. What was the grant money for?

...

[NashVegas]

8. So Basically He's Not Saying Anything That Hasn't Been Said

On DU by Obama supporters here.

[Elspeth]

11. LOL!

Still watching...

[Elspeth]

9. So the priest got his 15 minutes, eh?

;)

[DURHAM D]

21. Obama has previously, publicly referred to him as a spiritual guide.

Yes - he knows him well. Old friends.

[Elspeth]

26. Link?

Quote?

[DURHAM D]

29. Just google it - earlier today it was on Obama's campaign website.

I understand it was purged this pm.

[Elspeth]

30. Then I won't be able to find it

Hmm

[Straight Shooter]

56. Yet another spiritual guide?

I think that particular "guide" needs an exorcism.

[Elspeth]

66. Why does a thinking person need a spiritual guide anyway?

...

[Straight Shooter]

72. I don't know the answer, but that's a very good question.

:thumbsup:

[Elspeth]

84. It seems so odd to me.

Glad you appreciate the question. :)

[Straight Shooter]

98. I take it you're a pragmatist.

We need more pragmatism in this world, particularly in the realm of politics, and a lot less dogma.

I do appreciate people with critical thinking skills, as I sometimes tend to be bereft of same. :D

[Elspeth]

105. Very much so.

I also don't believe in big "visions" but in incremental measurable progress. Reality based community, that's me. Boring, but hopefully not too harmful.

[Straight Shooter]

113. Boring?

Nothing is more fascinating than reality, if we peer closely enough. Enjoy the rest of your evening. :hi:

[Elspeth]

115. Thanks much. :)

:hi:

Enjoy your evening as well.

[polmaven]

33. Oh there is some crap

about how he was a member of the "Catholics for Obama" group, and he "shared a podium" with Wright, and more, more, more. It looks pretty flimsy to me. I doubt Senator Obama had anything to do with inviting him. He's had a few other things to do lately.

If it can be shown that Trinity Church knew about what he was going to do when they invited him maybe the IRS might want to look at their tax exempt status, though. And Senator Obama may want to think about changing churches now. The people there really do not seem to have his best interests at heart.

[Elspeth]

36. So it's kind of a fuzzy link. More Clown News Network fodder

Like Faux assassination attempts and the like.

[polmaven]

50. Yes, it is really fuzzy..

Faux is trying to make him another "Spiritual advisor"....I don't know how many of those he needed...Basically a lot of junk. Not worth the air time.

[Elspeth]

70. Why does anybody need a spiritual advisor?

Especially about political questions. Why bring someone else's irrational feelings (backed by dogma) into a political or societal decision?

[AtomicKitten]

13. One word: Entitlement.

He was riffing on her crying as being indicative of her sense of entitlement crashing head-on into phenom Barack Obama.

[Elspeth]

15. Why was he riffing instead of preaching tolerance?

Hmm

[redstate_democrat]

18. He was speaking truth to power.

I made the same observation about Hillary and many of her supporters. She DOES have a sense of entitlement. She has done nothing to EARN her spot, but she thinks she is entitled to it none the less. She is obviously a very mediocre candidate as evidenced by her station in this race.

[Elspeth]

25. "her station in this race"?

What does that mean?

[redstate_democrat]

35. It means her current "place" or "position" in the race.

:shrug:

[Elspeth]

38. Thanks for explaining the term as you use it.

"Station" has a lot meanings, and my dialect of English doesn't use the word that way.

[redstate_democrat]

137. That's your problem.

:hi:

[Beacool]

131. Please, Hillary is infinitely more qualified than Obama. n/t

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. Tolerance toward what? White entitlement? nt

[Elspeth]

63. No, tolerance towards all God's creatures.

Instead, he panders to the hate of his audience.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

69. Even if they're entitled racist assholes?

I think those people have been tolerated quite enough, thank you very much.

[Elspeth]

80. So you are not tolerant at all, are you? We're all assholes to you, huh?

Unless we're voting for your candidate?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

97. Are you an entitled white racist? Then yes. nt

[Elspeth]

103. But the priest wasn't just asking for the money of racists

He wanted every white person to give up their puny savings. You can't have it both ways.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. Um no, it was clear to me that he was only talking about those white people

Who piss and moan about how "I never owned any slaves!".

[Elspeth]

205. So if I am white and my family never owned slaves and I don't talk about it, then

I can keep my puny retirement? But if I do talk about it, then I can't?

[polmaven]

43. "This black man, hi, I'm Barak Obama"

The man was a pandering idiot...and most of the congregation was cheering him on about it. That church, and I said in another post, does not have Senator Obama's best interest in mind. And that is too bad. That church has meant a lot to him.

[Elspeth]

49. A steady 20-year diet of this kind of pandering had to have an effect on Obama.

...

[EffieBlack]

62. What proof do you have that any of this has affected Obama?

First of all, there hasn't been a "20-year diet" of this - but notwithstanding your faulty premise . . .

What evidence do you have that Obama's views, attitudes or opinions have been negatively affected by anything that someone in his church said. Please be specific. And "well, they said it, he heard it {which, again, you have no proof of}, he didn't walk out, so it MUST have affected him} is not sufficient.

[Elspeth]

74. Obama has been attending this church for 20 years and counts its head as a spiritual advisor

The speech that this little priest gave says more about the church itself than about the guy giving the speech. Look at those churchgoers: they agree with him wholeheartedly and with their whole bodies. Watch them. Their behavior tells me more about what is acceptable to Obama than anything he says in public.

That's why this church is important.

[EffieBlack]

87. So, you think that anyone who associates with someone who agrees with something someone else said

that you don't like must also agree with everything that that person has said, whether or not he even heard them say such things and even if he himself has never said, done or indicated anything in any way that they share those views - and in fact has demonstrated in everything they say and do that their views are very different?

Wow. What a narrow little world you must live in.

By the way, the video I saw showed a handful of people, some of whom laughed at what Fleger said, some of whom didn't. And unless you were wearing your special goggles, you did not see the entire congregation and have no idea what the reaction of everyone there was. You certainly don't know that they all "agree with him wholeheartedly and with their own bodies." And you sure as hell don't have any reason to think that Obama would have agreed with it if he had been there.

But you obviously are willing and, in fact, eager to apply the six degrees of separation assessment to Obama and since a person said something that you don't like and some other people thought it was funny and some of those other people belong to the same church as Obama you assert that Obama himself agrees with the views expressed by that person back down the line.

Fortunately, I believe that most observers are a little more sophisticated in their analysis of political figures, their views and their attitudes.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. So do you also think that a steady diet of "The Fellowship" had an impact on Hillary Clinton?

Hillary's Prayer

[EFerrari]

100. Why are you messing with white elites, the topic is black racists,

or, um, white black racists.

:rofl:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

123. I hear ya, sfexpat2000!

:hi:

[polmaven]

67. Oh, don't get me wrong...

I am not one who thinks the Rev. Wright issue was overblown. This guy, however, was, I think looking for his 15 minutes at Senator Obama's expense.

And I think the church is taking advantage too. I mean, they HAD to know they are being scrutinized with a microscope all the time. The HAD to know letting this guy go on this rage could only be a detriment to Senator Obama.

[Elspeth]

108. Yeah his 15 minutes.

I agree with you there.

[AtomicKitten]

55. if you suppress your faux outrage you'd see how wonderful it is actually

We have no business as a nation poking our noses into politicians' places of worship. But, hey, if that's to be the trend of this election, I'd gladly put any of the "blue" preachers up against the "red" ones. Yes, let's contrast and compare if that's the way people want to go.

Some of you Clinton supporters still don't get it. You and your candidate continue to try to put a template over this election, the problem is the template is obsolete. The old school Rove-inspired and approved tactics of shaming and faux outrage and mud clusterbombs have piled up and Barack has climbed over them. He has redefined this election.

But hope springs eternal I suppose. Heads up because cement is being poured for those goalposts on Tuesday and it will be done. Regardless of how MI and FL are seated, Clinton simply cannot exceed Obama's now clear insurmountable delegate count.

And all this pointless posturing on DU will come to an end and we can turn our attention toward the general election.

[ampad]

64. Thank you AtomicKitten

Wasn't it just a few days ago that the OP was getting on to Obama supporters for their "faux outrage" over the assassination statement? Thank god this will all be over on Tuesday.

[AtomicKitten]

68. cheers

:hi:

[Elspeth]

86. I'll bet this priest is anti-choice

...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

91. of course he is

[Elspeth]

92. I'd like to see what his thinking actually is on that.

,,

[Liberal Gramma]

117. What? A Catholic priest anti-choice?

The whole church is anti-choice. And anti-contraception. Most patriarchal religions are, well, patriarchal in their outlook.

[Elspeth]

119. So this priest is against me having the right over my own body, but wants me to give my retirement

(puny as it is) to correct race relations. Hmmm....

[Liberal Gramma]

151. Not just this priest. That was the point of my post.

ALL Catholic priests are anti-choice. That's the church's official position.

[Elspeth]

156. Not true. I know at least one Jesuit who is for abortion rights.

And he's not the only one.

[Liberal Gramma]

195. That's amazing.

I'm Catholic, and I have never, ever met a priest who is pro-choice.

[Elspeth]

204. The Jesuits are a different breed

They tend to think a little freer. The traditionalists hate them.

[zulchzulu]

90. I wonder when Barack Obama is going to apologize for Unity Church members who...

...have overdue fines at their local library?

Paging Wolfson...paging Wolfson...

:sarcasm:

[ccharles000]

23. What he said...

was disgusting and ugly and I am glad Obama spoke out against it.

[Elspeth]

34. Well, you and I agree on both things

...

[EffieBlack]

88. I agree.

[Eric J in MN]

81. Video

http://politicalkudzu.com/2008/05/29/father-michael-pfleger-mocks-hillary-clinton-video/

He says that Hillary Clinton cried because she felt white entitlement.

(The preacher is white, himself, and addressing mostly black congregants as a guest speaker.)

[bigdarryl]

95. pretty funny if you ask me. people need to lighten the fuck up and not get upset about EVER THING!!!

[Elspeth]

106. Then what would happen to GD-P? It would disappear!

:)

[Elspeth]

110. Thanks for the link and the overview--which pretty much sums up what I saw

...

[fadedrose]

114. Find it somewhere, don't miss it!!!!

[Elspeth]

116. Speaking of the Catholic Church and women

Vatican says will excommunicate women priests

By Phil StewartThu May 29, 3:16 PM ET

The Vatican issued its most explicit decree so far against the ordination of women priests on Thursday, punishing them and the bishops who try to ordain them with automatic excommunication.

The decree was written by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and published in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, giving it immediate effect.

A Vatican spokesman said the decree made the Church's existing ban on women priests more explicit by clarifying that excommunication would follow all such ordinations.

Excommunication forbids those affected from receiving the sacraments or sharing in acts of public worship.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/pope_women_dc&printer=1;_ylt=AnMwlAAbtpts605YaXDlH2iGWo14

[anonymous171]

124. This is relevant because...

Michael Pfleger is anything but conservative.

[Elspeth]

158. Relevant because a woman of any color cannot be a priest and faces excommunication

Relevant because it is easier for organizations and nations to see a male of any color in a leadership position than a female, no matter how well-qualified she is.

[Critters2]

175. Exactly. I'd like to see the sermons where he mocks the Pope

about his church's attitudes toward women. I'm guessing there are no such sermons extant.

[Elspeth]

180. You and me both.

But I'll bet they don't exist.

[Beacool]

125. Well, well, well, what a surprise!!!

Another hateful pastor who is Obama's BFF. Wow, for such a self proclaimed uniter he sure knows how to pick the most divisive clergymen to be his buddies!!

Don't these pastors know that they are cramping his style and causing cracks in the "Uniter's" facade???


:eyes:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

140. Yeah, they should be more decorous. Like this guy:

Doug Coe

[ruby slippers]

127. I don't know but I laughed and I shouldn't really have....

Ruby hangs head.....

[anonymous171]

130. I fucking dare HRC and her supporters to start on the Catholic Church.

Just try it and see what happens.

[Beacool]

133. He is not the Catholic church, just one jerk of a priest.

That's all.........

:shrug:

[ruby slippers]

134. yeah, they'd all be lumped in with Hagee then.......

[blonndee]

136. Why not? They've already alienated so many, let them add "Catholics"

(as though there were a generic "Catholic" vote) to their roster. Constituency by constituency, her tactics ought to lose her her Senate seat. She seems to be working towards that goal. And I say, good on her! She doesn't deserve it.

[Beacool]

142. She wins the Catholic vote hands down.

Good try..........

The one who does not deserve the presidency is the inexperienced rookie who may end up being the party's nominee.

[blonndee]

143. Whatev. She will be THANKFUL to get that seat back.

And she'll have to grovel for it. As well she should. Happy dance!

[Beacool]

145. Oh please..............

She won't have to grovel for that or any other job, she won 17M votes and that alone confers her plenty of power.

[BlueStater]

187. Like that idiot pastor speaks for Catholics

I find his comments to be revolting and what I find even more revolting is that some people here actually find them "funny".

[slinkerwink]

135. I thought his comments were wrong, and I'm glad he apologized

[Critters2]

177. He didn't apologize. His apology only counts "if" you were offended.

He didn't take responsibility for his behavior. He holds those who were offended responsible for their reaction to his behavior. That is not an apology.

[jillan]

141. Wait a minute - aren't you supposed to be preaching about God and love in house of worship?

Why are they insulting another human being in a church?

Sad.

[Critters2]

178. Exactly. I'd really like to know what text he was preaching.

What pericope calls for mocking a woman in this way?

[DesEtoiles]

146. ALL YOUR VOTES ARE BELONG TO HILLARY

[casus belli]

148. You have no idea what you're parodying do you? n/t

[Elspeth]

169. What IS this from, anyway?

I always wondered.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

150. That was hilarious!!

This is mocking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzCOQj2lpY&feature=related

[kdpeters]

181. It was more like an impersonation than a mockery. He looked and sounded just like her.

[Critters2]

182. More of that party unity we keep hearing so much about. nt

[Elspeth]

212. Yeah, And now Obama folks are saying they'll leave the party if Obama isn't nominated

After giving me hell for my opinions, even though I am voting the Democratic ticket. They are simply not loyal Democrats; they want what they want.

[indimuse]

188. HERE>>>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6179769&mesg_id=6179769

[indimuse]

189. Here>>>>>>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6179769&mesg_id=6179769

[Elspeth]

194. On privilege...

When I return.

[DeschutesRiver]

197. Finally saw a clip of his sermon on MSNBC

and I thought it was funny. This being spoken about a candidate who pitched to a couple of states with hard core racist holdout communities that she was the candidate capable of bringing home the "white" vote.

From that angle it was a more than appropriate comeback now that the "I am the only one who can win the whites" in racist areas theme has fallen short. Live by the sword, die by the sword; or my favorite "can't stand the heat, get on outta the kitchen." And since my dh cooks as much as me, I will laugh more if anyone finds that sexist.

This is more than enough to qualify for a redneck "here's your sign" stupid moment. She opened the door to this herself. Besides, I am getting thoroughly sick of candidates who claim to be ready from day one to tackle the world's toughest issues, in a world driven by serious conflict, who are this thin skinned. It isn't even beginning to make me feel badly for them. And while I'm on it, I don't give a flying f*** about what pastors say. There are real issues out there that are taking up my attention - am glad for a laugh now and then.

[earth mom]

202. I just watched the video and it's OVER for Obama once the public sees this. PERIOD.

Father Pflegar can take his reverse racism and shove it!

His logic is TOTAL B.S.! Most people in this country have had to work their asses off to get anywhere in life! Privilege is only for rich bastards!!!

Hell, my family didn't even live in this country when there was slavery! So why in the fuck does anyone think we personally owe any-fucking-body any-fucking-thing?! :wtf:

Maybe the federal government needs to make reparations, I'll give you that, but the rest of us?! WTF?!!!!

Oh, I am so livid-and you can bet your a$$ the rest of America will be too when they hear that shit that so called man of gawd is spewing! :grr:

[Imagevision]

215. Over for Obama? - surely you jest...

[barack the house]

222. It was mocking it should be denoucned but in honesty I found it hillarious.

[terrya]

223. If he was trying to be a comedian, he shouldn't give up his day job.

[Elspeth]

225. LOL!!

:D

[Voltaire99]

226. In a word: deliciously.

He's certainly one of the few religious figures in American life worth listening to!