Wow. I just got a look at that Pfleger video. I'm stunned.

[Bucky]

It's like the pastors are out to destroy the Obama campaign. How does a minister talk like this and then pass himself off as a Christian? Why aren't their parishioners getting up and walking out on hateful language like that?

Let me clarify where I stand--I'm an unwavering Obama supporter. But this is cringe inducing. Pfleger is seems to be out there trying to whip up racial divisions. Would Jesus do that? No, I think Jesus drove people like that out of the temple. Christians are supposed to believe in healing. This man has not interest in healing--his intent is to divide and create hatreds and animosity.

I've always said race is dumb and all discussions of race tend to quickly turn Americans into blithering, mewling idiots. The Rev. Pfleger just proved my point. So did the vast majority of the parishioners at Trinity who applauded this political speech.

I've never liked much the way the Clintons have run their campaign, but Pflegar's characterization of her is simply unhinged from reality. This supposed "friend" of Obama is stabbing him in the back. I simply do not understand people who think like this, who have values that justify this kind of hateful speech.

I'm a liberal first and I believe wholeheartedly in the separation of church and state. Churches with preachers who take sides in political contests need to lose their non-profit status. I know Pfleger and Wright before him are "supporting" the same candidate as me, but there is nothing liberal about them and the divisions they seek to widen. Barack Obama in his speeches speaks of racial healing. Pfleger and Wright seek only to profit by racial divisions.

I'm a liberal first and I believe that we should treat our fellow countrymen with dignity and generosity even when we disagree with them politically. I believe in responsibility and that before you can tell someone else to clean up their side of the fence, you should first clean up your own side of the fence. The Revs Pfleger & Wright are part of the mess on my side of the fence. They hurt the man best suited to leading this country. They hurt liberalism. They hurt all of us. It is not enough to apologize--and I notice that Pfleger's apology included that nullifying word "if"--they should atone for the damage they do.

However, I have little hope that they will. Damn them.

[Clark2008]

1. I laughed when I heard it.

I thought it was funnier than most of what's on SNL and some of what's on The Daily Show.

It was a riot.

[Zueda]

3. My wife and I were laughing our arses off this morning while watching it.

Funny and spot on.

[Bucky]

16. Did you notice the clothes he was wearing? He's a minister, not a clown.

Clowns have the job of ridiculing the famous and thus poking holes in their balloons. Preachers are supposed to give guidance & solace. I have no problem with a preacher who uses humor; my minister certainly does. I have a huge problem with preachers who use humor to incite racial divisions--particularly when doing so hurts my candidate president.

Laugh if you want. The hurt this man causes will have consequences, whether it comes in the form of a more divided convention in June, a McCain victory in November, or an ineffectual Obama administration next year.

[WillyT]

26. There's A Convention In June ???

Nobody told me.

:shrug:

[Bucky]

37. Or whenever. You know what I mean.

Grrrrrr. I always get fuddled by facts when I'm being distracted by backstabbers.

[Teaser]

31. who says?

I would prefer ministers stick to comedy.

They suck at solace.

[grantcart]

136. lol what does Hulk say lol

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

32. this whole media outrage is engineered. Its bullshit

there's no preventing phony outrage created by the media as campaign commercials
for Hillary Clinton.

None.

This priest was right on point, everything he said was true and hilarious.

[genna]

62. Context is important

I have a huge problem with preachers who use humor to incite racial divisions--particularly when doing so hurts my candidate president.

How has HRC been behaving this year? Creating or inciting racial divisions?


This Father did that to the Democratic party? All by himself?


I disagree.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

68. the media would like him better if he was wearing a uniform and carrying a gun

then it would be all good for the MSM.

[ieoeja]

109. For the record, he's a Roman Catholic priest, not a minister. n/t

[Bucky]

133. Minister is a generic term that includes priests, vicars, preachers....

Anyone who administers the Christian sacraments is a minister. I got an earful of these sorts of definitions from the Catholic priests who taught me in college. They also taught me that I'm going to one of the nicer circles of hell because I'm a Unitarian, but I choose to be selective in what I learn from them.

[ieoeja]

153. I sit corrected. Thank you. n/t

[foo_bar]

161. as a Unitarian, why judge the validity of other sects?

The best I could hope for is that circle of hell with Aristotle and other lovable pagans born in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I'll try not to invest in other people's castles in the sky:

How does a minister talk like this and then pass himself off as a Christian?

As arbiter of what's Christian and/or Christ-like, what proportion of Christianity isn't "in name only" by your reckoning? Do Jesuits make the cut, just not the firebrands?

Pfleger is seems to be out there trying to whip up racial divisions.

I thought he was trying for the opposite effect, "I'm a white dude and even I can see it."

Would Jesus do that?

Do what, speak English? Get on a stage and share apocryphal quotes about himself? Jesus was, by all accounts, a bit of a sectarian Jew, probably not averse to a little rhetorical flame throwing for a larger point.

[JoFerret]

166. He's a total clown. Pandering clown

nothing to do with Obama but these people are pretty sick creeps.
this one in particular seems VERY needy.
I am glad to see them exposed. As bad as the r/w any day.

[JackRiddler]

167. There's a difference between ministers and clowns? Not usually.

[Marrah_G]

5. Except that it wasn't a skit and the guy was serious.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

40. I heard the video, and it was comedy - but Hillary is the perfect foil for such comedy

The Priest was telling the truth big time.

[Bucky]

90. You have a valid point. However the foiler in this case is not a comedian

I might laugh if a comedian did this, even if the humor is hackneyed, overworked, and unoriginal.

But a comedian didn't do this. A man invited by Obama's church to stand behind their pulpit said this. And it hurts the party.

[tishaLA]

114. why do you presume to know the appropriate style of preaching?

I have seen sermons that are somber, or threatening, or joyous, or funny, or an amalgamation of all of those things. Please don't presume that because you grew up with one tradition, it is the "correct" tradition. The clergy's job is to connect with--and guide--congregates. If his style didn't work for you, it means nothing about the inherent appropriateness of his style, but it does mean you probably shouldn't attend his church.

[msallied]

147. Exactly! And to say this hurts the party is nothing short of hyperbole.

[ieoeja]

110. That would explain why he was laughing. I always laugh when I'm being serious.

:sarcasm:

[Carolina]

125. yes, he was serious and spot on

what he said was absolutely TRUE!

[hfojvt]

135. No it was stupid

Not just what he said about Hillary, but what he said about white people.

[Carolina]

165. whatever, he's white and he's entitled

to his opinion!

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. I did too

I guess I'm a bad person. Oh well...

[Arkansas Granny]

33. When this comes up later as a right wing talking point come back and tell us again

how funny it is and how much you laughed. You should get ample opportunities to do so, because I can almost guarantee that this is going to be used relentlessly by the RW smear machine, along with the Rev. Wright videos to strike fear into the hearts of the racist segment of our society that electing Obama will give "the coloreds" a chance to take over this country (that is not my opinion, but one I have already heard expressed from a few people I come in contact with).

[Bucky]

48. It's worse than that.

It's an opinion I've heard expressed by Democrats--liberal Democrats--where I work. Obama is such a dignified & responsible man. So his opponents have to look elsewhere to divide the progressive forces in this country. Frustrated ministers who think they can be Dave Chappelle are wrapping up the gift quite nicely for the RNC.

[ingac70]

60. That priest is white...

did you actually see the video?

[Bucky]

87. You must be an American. As OP states, this conversation has turned you into an idiot.

from my OP: All discussions of race tend to quickly turn Americans into blithering, mewling idiots.

My original post is entitled "I just got a look at that Pfleger video." If you could set aside your blithering and mewling for a second, you might notice that from that statement you can logically infer that I have indeed seen the video.

It doesn't matter what race the guy is. His words are hurtful. His words are designed to be hurtful. That is the opposite of hope. It is an act of despair and malice.

[ingac70]

56. The priest was white for chrissakes!

A white priest calls out Hillary for what she is and that makes Obama racist? Take that stupid argument to Freeperville.

[Bucky]

75. From the OP: "discussions of race turn Americans into blithering, mewling idiots"

It doesn't matter what side of the fence he lands on; it doesn't matter what race he is. Race is, on its own value, a pretty unimportant thing. Everyone who gives race a priority in political discussions feeds a fat ignorant beast. The point isn't that he denounced Clinton in racially divisive terms.

Guess what happens when you promote racial divisions in a majority white country? You wound black candidates. This year, that happens to be the guy I consider best suited (among the remaining candidates) for the job of president.

I hope in the end his words don't matter. But right now I fear that they will.

[genna]

83. My post is dripping with sarcasm

:hippie:

It doesn't matter what side of the fence he lands on; it doesn't matter what race he is. Race is, on its own value, a pretty unimportant thing. Everyone who gives race a priority in political discussions feeds a fat ignorant beast. The point isn't that he denounced Clinton in racially divisive terms.

If you are right, BHO needs to bend over and kiss his ass goodbye.

Don't we know he is black (not half white, BUT BLACK). He can't win. The SD need to step in, for god's sake he's black. The majority of white people will see, he's black.

We need Senator Clinton because BHO knows other black people and he knows white people who know black people.


What shall we do now that we know he is black, he knows black people, and he knows white people that know black people?


What a crock of crap!

Maybe nonDemocrats fit into this world and BHO is doomed to lose, but I'd love to hear what you suggest BHO should do will all the people he knows who feel like this Father did when he expressed his opinion.


Does every person who belongs to Trinity need to shut up for the rest of the year? Does every pastor in Chicago who knows someone who went to Trinity shut up for the rest of year?
Does every black person who agrees with this Father need to shut up for the rest of the year?


Maybe just the people who could possibly mock, ridicule, and malign the process?

[Bake]

155. No they need not shut up. Just shut up about the presidential race

That would suffice. Nicely. They're not helping Obama's campaign (and I have no idea if that's what they're TRYING to do).

Bake

[Arkansas Granny]

77. I know the priest was white. I was reporting an opinion that I have heard, not my own.

Please take a moment to read my post before you attempt to put words in my mouth.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

65. imagine if the media told the truth about Hillary, then she wouldn't have won a single state

but brainless morons will let this same deceitful media tell them
when to laugh, when not to laugh, and when to have phony outrage.

Shows that the MSM still has the power to lie us into war.

[genna]

69. We just can't talk about honestly about those "coloreds." Let's talk around it. Maybe they will

go away?

:mad:

Well, guess what?

Those "coloreds" have been listening to all this stuff which has already been said It ain't pretty on the Democratic party front.

How do you manage to keep the racist segment's heart AND African Americans in the same party?

[Bucky]

78. Everyone who has prejudices is not a racist.

Prejudices can often be overcome with healing and understanding and reason. Racism is a harder blot to clean up.

Antagonizing racial sensitivities turns prejudices into racism. This guy is hurting my guy and thus is hurting my country.

[ieoeja]

108. Me too. Though nobody around me was.

So I asked them to pretend it was a skit by Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. They agreed that would be funny, but that it's not funny in church.

I don't think I've ever attended a mass where the priest did not crack a few jokes. Whatever.

[NoFederales]

129. It WAS funny, and perhaps it was done in an inappropriate place,

but hell-fire, it was a great skit and if it's offensive to the viewer--so be it.

NoFederales

on Edit: Did I mention that I liked it?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

134. I was laughing my ass off!

I thought he was great! I have a feeling that Trinity is somewhere I would feel comfortable going to. It reminds me of Glide here in SF -- probably the only church this ex-Catholic would regularly step foot in.

It is so very funny watching people freak out over the style/content of preaching at Trinity -- clearly they don't get out much to other religious settings. The style the Father was using is one that I have seen many, many times in churchs with primaarily AA members, and the content is classic libertation theology -- very political, very contemporary.

[Heather MC]

151. I crack up every time I see it!

"He's stealing my show"!!!!
Brillant, too bad SNL is done for the season, they should hire him as a writer

[Marrah_G]

2. I agree

Nice post.

Obama should not be held accountable for these preachers, but he had better distance himself from them quickly.

You are right, it seems like these guys are trying to fuck Obama over deliberately.

That churches and all churches who campaign from the pulpit should have their tax exempt status revoked.

[shaniqua6392]

4. I can not believe people here on DU are thinking this is funny.

It is horrible. It is an example of why the separation of church and state is vital. It is damaging and not humorous at all. Obama had better get out in front of this and quickly. His little statements on how he does not agree with what is being said by these pastors is not good enough. You don't agree with what they say and you still go to church there? What the hell kind of judgment is that? The GOP is going to have a field day with this gift that keeps on giving.

[Max_powers94]

6. I sorry but this was funny...And it hit home

[Marrah_G]

7. I was shocked by that also

I just added those folks who thought the racist was just wonderful to my ignore list and then "poof" the world becomes a little saner.

[Zueda]

12. Please anyone else who has faux outrage over this please add me to your ignore list as well.

thanks

[Bucky]

18. My outrage is not fake. But yes, feel free to put me on ignore.

[KittyWampus]

8. News flash- some churches focus on social justice. It's a tradition to talk about world events

And in BLACK AND WHITE churches it's a tradition, where the church was not just a refuge but a means of channeling anger, resentment into positive goals.

[beachmom]

27. It's a tradition outside the mainstream. Do you want to win this election or not?

Obama told me and others at YKos last summer: Chicago ain't no beanbag. Well, neither is a presidential campaign. He needs to leave that church.

[KittyWampus]

41. Outside the mainstream? Are you saying the 700 Club (for one small example) is fringe?

cause the white churches the lean Far Right have been doing worse for a LONG time.

[beachmom]

106. The 700 Club is outside the mainstream, too. Honestly, churches should

not be in the business of talking politics. They should be talking about God and love. Get politics out of the pulpit. That's my view.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

42. Lets let the lying murderous complicit media tell us what church to go to

especially lets have them run us away from the churches that DON'T
lie to us.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

43. Lets let the lying murderous complicit media tell us what church to go to

especially lets have them run us away from the churches that DON'T
lie to us.

[genna]

85. what WillYourVoteBCounted said

:kick:

[beachmom]

107. You've got to be kidding me. Is it the truth that the government created aids to kill off black

people? Is it true that Hillary was mad she was being beaten by Obama because he was black, not because she assumed the nomination was hers and did not anticipate his insurgent candidacy? Sorry, my respect for that church goes down every day I hear this sort of nonsense. For your information I used to live 10 minutes away from Regent U and Pat Robertson. He screws around in our local elections, and graduates of his school are our state delegates. I hate it. Keep politics out of the pulpit, and keep the pulpit out of our politics. They are a church. It is one thing to talk about values, and see how they impact the world. Quite another to call out a presidential candidate and impugn her character in ways that are completely off the mark. Anyone who checks my history will know I have no love for the Clintons. They are guilty of so many vile things -- but resenting Obama's ascendancy because he is black is bogus. The Clintons are about power. The guy is an idiot in addition to being offensive.

I realize now that I have a similar distaste for the Religious Left as I do of the Religious Right. The Left has little power, but religion and politics simply do not mix. That is what all of this should be teaching us.

[FlaGranny]

154. I doubt the government

created AIDS to kill black people, but they did use black people to experiment with syphilis some years ago, so I can't say I blame some black people for suspecting foul play. The government also used school kids as guinea pigs. The following are some "interesting" experiments of the past.

Rockefeller Institute for Medical Investigations, infects human subjects with cancer cells. He later goes on to establish the U.S. Army Biological Warfare facilities in Maryland, Utah, and Panama, and is named to the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. While there, he begins a series of radiation exposure experiments on American soldiers and civilian hospital patients.

The Tuskegee Syphilis Study begins. 200 black men diagnosed with syphilis are never told of their illness, are denied treatment, and instead are used as human guinea pigs in order to follow the progression and symptoms of the disease. They all subsequently die from syphilis, their families never told that they could have been treated.

The Pellagra Incident. After millions of individuals die from Pellagra over a span of two decades, the U.S. Public Health Service finally acts to stem the disease. The director of the agency admits it had known for at least 20 years that Pellagra is caused by a niacin deficiency but failed to act since most of the deaths occurred within poverty-stricken black populations.

Chemical Warfare Services begins mustard gas experiments on approximately 4,000 servicemen. The experiments continue until 1945 and made use of Seventh Day Adventists who chose to become human guinea pigs rather than serve on active duty.

Refrigeration experiment conducted on sixteen mentally disabled patients who were placed in refrigerated cabinets at 30 degree Fahrenheit, for 120 hours, at University of Cincinnati Hospital., "to study the effect of frigid temperature on mental disorders."

The Atomic Energy Commission authorized a series of experiments in which radioactive materials are given to individuals in many cases without being informed they were the subject of an experiment, and in some cases without any expectation of a positive benefit to the subjects, who were selected from vulnerable populations such as the poor, elderly, and mentally retarded children (who were fed radioactive oatmeal without the consent of their parents), and also from students at UC-San Francisco. In 1993, the experiments were uncovered and made public. In 1996, the United States settled with the survivors for 4.9 million dollars.

The CIA begins its study of LSD as a potential weapon for use by American intelligence. Human subjects (both civilian and military) are used with and without their knowledge.

In an experiment to determine how susceptible an American city would be to biological attack, the U.S. Navy sprays a cloud of bacteria from ships over San Francisco.

The CIA, in an experiment to test its ability to infect human populations with biological agents, releases a bacteria withdrawn from the Army's biological warfare arsenal over Tampa Bay, Fl.

MUCH, MUCH MORE AT: http://www.mnwelldir.org/docs/history/experiments.htm

Read this list of "experiments" and then tell me again that African Americans would be surprised by such an experiment.

Edit: Another one - Funding for the synthetic biological agent is obtained under H.R. 15090. The project, under the supervision of the CIA, is carried out by the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, the army's top secret biological weapons facility. Speculation is raised that molecular biology techniques are used to produce AIDS-like retroviruses.

[fed_up_mother]

58. Most progressive churches talk about social justice; they act, too.

However, they seek to bridge the divide - not make it wider and deeper.

[genna]

84. what cryingshame said

:kick:

[hfojvt]

140. I don't think bashing white people is a constructive way to focus on social justice

Anger wasn't just channeled, it was stirred up and encouraged and not a word was said about positive goals.

[JVS]

10. Do you agree with everything that gets said in your church?

[genna]

79. Did you honestly think that the Republicans were going to be pure and kind but for the pesky folks?

They have nothing to run on except that racist segment hating black folks.

Do you honestly think they have the moral high ground with the RW pastors?


The media runs past these Hagee, Falwell (while he was living), and Robertson like their opinion is less definitive.

Then they take Wright and this Father and blow them up beyond all recognition.


They point out b.s. and then hide their hand. Journalist don't give context, don't give the whole speech and refuse to talk about the underlying ideas.


If Obama wins, do you think the Republicans are going to walk off silently into the good night?

I don't think so.

[hfojvt]

138. he doesn't still goto church there

he's either in Washington DC or campaigning most weekends. I bet he has not been to a third of their services for the last four years.

[shaniqua6392]

142. That is still his home church.

I understand he has not had time to go there, but it is still his church. How often he attends does not change that.

[BklnDem75]

152. And?

Are you one of those people that think he should apologize for things other people do and say?

[kiranon]

156. It shows their political immaturity. Wait til the Republicans use it.

Then they'll understand why this isn't a good thing for Hillary or Obama or the Democrats.

[highplainsdem]

9. Pfleger came across as a hate-filled lunatic. He's funny only to Hillary-haters who are so blinded

by their hatred of her they've lost all perspective.

It wasn't a Saturday Night Live skit -- and it wouldn't have been funny if it was.

That video is going to be very damaging to Obama in the GE...and it makes me wonder how many other lunatic friends of his will turn up between now and November. It shows hatred of whites in general, as well as of Hillary.

And it doesn't matter one damn bit that Pfleger is white. That does not make his hatred of whites okay. Both he and the parishioners applauding him looked grotesque.

There was nothing uplifting about his sermon. There was nothing in it about transcending race. It was the deluded ranting of someone who's emotionally about 12 years old, thumbing his nose at the woman who ran a historic campaign to show that a woman can also be a credible presidential candidate.

And that sermon is going to do Obama a lot more harm than most of his supporters here seem capable of imagining.

[jaxx]

15. Funny you got hate out of that snippet.

I got it was making fun of the whole damn process. The priest could hardly keep a straight face.

[Zueda]

21. And according to taylor "swamp mouth" marsh..

"Whites can be racist too."

WTF?

LOL

[chascarrillo]

38. Oh my god!!! Hahahaha!!!

That's brilliant!

[NatBurner]

123. right?

mind?
blown.

[Clark2008]

23. I'm not a Hillary hater.

I don't give a frig who wins the nomination. I'll just vote for the Dee.

However, I still thought it was hilarious. It poked fun at several social morays and challenged the listener to consider - just for a moment and given what Hillary and her supporters have said - that some white people DO think they're owed power.

I don't think the sermon was supposed to be uplifting. I think it was supposed to be thought-provoking.

P.S. I'm also Catholic. I want to attend this guy's church.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

36. Poor poor Assassination Hillary - everyone picks on her

Notice that the media isn't talking about Hillary's assassination threats anymore?

She is a blood sucking vampire and the most disgusting reprehensible
creature in politics, and instead the known dishonest MSM is
pimping out free infomercials for her.

[leftynyc]

92. Your hyperbole is bordering on the

hysterical. Blood sucking vampire, worse creature in politics???!!! You must be fucking kidding me. If you don't think the pubs are going make hay about this issue, you're delusional. That doesn't mean to pick Hillary - she has waaaay more baggage than Sen Obama but do try to come back to earth on your insane description of her.

[AZSlacker]

11. Yeah, this didn't bother me much but I do realize it could cause

problems for him again. If it were me I'd find a new church, as as this is the third strike for them (Rev Wright, and Rev Wright part deux being the first two).

[ccharles000]

13. It was disgusting.

I am proud Obama spoke out against it.

[Avalux]

17. It's a pastor in a church. I'm tired of this crap being dragged into the campaign.

Obama has NO control over what is said during sermons like this; it's not as if he runs that church. He is one member of thousands. It is unfortunate Pfleger chose to perform the way he did without taking into consideration the impact it might have on Obama's campaign.

If people choose to hold Obama accountable for what a guest pastor says during his sermon, they wouldn't have voted for him anyway.

I just wish the press would stop trying to make a story out of it.

[Bucky]

24. I don't know if they're "trying to make a story out of it". A minister is a public figure.

The clergy fulfill a public role in our world. What they say is important; what they say matters. Ugly and divisive speech coming from the pulpit is as much news when it comes from a supposedly "liberal" church as when it comes from a conservative one.

[JTFrog]

53. According to the Constitution it doesn't matter what roll you think they fill in your world.

What they say does not matter. What they say is not important. And no such test shall be given.

So keep your fucking RELIGION OUT OF MY POLITICS.

[Avalux]

54. Thank you. n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

63. Obama's personal connection with this priest isn't a problem, there's not much of one there

To the extent that there is a problem, it is a different set of associations that drives them.

This new video provides another public window into Trnity Church, and the view it gives to many Americans could be unsettling. All most people know about that church is what they see and hear in the media, including video tapes of parts of some controversial sermons that Reverend Wright gave there. Now they see video clips of another sermon that was delivered at Trinity Church. A common theme is a highly charged discussion of race relations in America. Some may agree with the sentiments expressed, others not, but clearly Barack Obama is carrying forth a different type of message about the future of race relations in America than that conveyed by these video clips.

If Pflegger was a white Catholic preaching somewhere else the association between him and Obama would only be as strong as a possible political endorsement. The potential negative blow back for Obama here centers on the reputation of the Church that Obama chose to belong to for twenty years. It was led by Wright. It still is inviting speakers like Pfleger to their pulpet. Pfleger was given a very warm introduction. He was called a dear friend of Trinity Church. His remarks were very positively received. This reflects on the congregation and the congregation reflects on Obama since he remained and remains in that congregation where some will increasingly assume these types of sentiments are deeply rooted. If some Americans are upset by those sentiments, it therefor makes it a little harder for Obama to now preach racial unity to them, there is a little more basis for doubt.

[Inuca]

70. Correct. Unfortunately n/t

[genna]

93. Agreed

:kick:

This reflects on the congregation and the congregation reflects on Obama since he remained and remains in that congregation where some will increasingly assume these types of sentiments are deeply rooted. If some Americans are upset by those sentiments, it therefor makes it a little harder for Obama to now preach racial unity to them, there is a little more basis for doubt.

That's why I knew why Wright came out and spoke, he'd be case in chief for why white America should be scared of BHO.

This pastor might become, second case in chief.

There are other pastors in Chicago than these two AND they know BHO.

There are other people in Chicago like Bill Ayers who know BHO.

There is plenty in Chicago that America will not like about the South Side.


You tell me how the Democratic Party is going to be able to stand up under it considering how the RW and MSM acts. I don't think you have to go far to find a Black person who agrees and is not a member of Trinity...how many apologies, statements and other things will BHO have to submit before it becomes ridiculous.

Not because this speaks to BHO's character, but because it ultimately is not the view BHO holds and the repetition of him saying I disagree is CUMBERSOME.

[Tom Rinaldo]

95. I think Obama can help lead us through this trap

I think he can do so by being frank about the fracture lines in American society and by acknowledging that they run deep and long into our shared history. He can lead us in talking about things that we have trouble putting into words, and stressing that this conversation inevitably will have some jarring notes but the alternative is to continue to avoid it, and suffer the damage of a cancer untreated. Obama's first major speech on race pointed in that direction. I wrote about it at the time and I said that my only real problem with it was that it did not come sooner:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5205335


In a metaphysical way it is a matter of getting out ahead of the herd, like a sheep herding dog does, and turning it from the direction it was mindlessly heading under it's own interia toward real progress instead. It takes great skill and I think Obama has that skill, but it can only be done by getting ahead of the pack and defining the direction of the public dialog.

These are just rough disjointed thoughts for now, but it is something I am continuing to think about.

[Liberal Gramma]

127. How can anyone hold Obama responsible for the remarks of a visiting pastor?

I don't get this. Why is it his problem?

[Tom Rinaldo]

131. To literally answer your question

Voters in their own minds can hold anyone they want accountable for anything they want, that's the first thing. But to answer you more directly, some voters could hold Obama accountable for being a loyal member of long duration in a church that welcomes guest sermons by someone like this Priest. That is the problematic link if there is one. Obama has no control over what any given man of the cloth might say, but he does have a direct say in what congregation he belongs to. Some may say that Obama voted with his feet by chosing to keep walking into a church that calls a priest like this their friend and which greets a sermon like his with enthusiastic applause.

[Liberal Gramma]

163. Thanks for explaining. I think it's a pretty tenuous link, myself,

and as I don't agree with everything that is said in my own church, but remain a member, I'd have a hard time holding someone else responsible for what is said in his. I guess if you're looking hard for something to pin on Obama, this will do as well as anything else.

[rightAintRIGHT]

141. That's exactly the problem

Very well said, it's going well beyond the person giving the sermon.

It's that the congregation that Obama has been apart of for 20 years has been shown to NOT have a new outlook on race relations. They seem to have a deeply seated racial devisive outlook and he sat amongst them for years.

He can't say he wasn't aware of it, that would show he lacks the ability to read a person's make up. How could he read an adversarial leader's make up in a series of short meetings? Talk about how hard it would be to sell his ability to influence that adversarial leader, he couldn't influence his minister or his fellow congregation.

Or to say he was aware of it but did NOTHING about. Just let young people be constantly exposed to this victimization philosphy and then wonder why those young people never seem to get out of that victimazation mode and get an education so they can prosper. Instead they will just give up because they don't stand a chance. He will have stood by as lives and generations have been ruined.

The more I hear from the Trinity Church the more I feel I don't know that much about Obama.

Do you think the average voter will be receptive to someone who finds the Trinity Church racial outlook as either normal or was miracously ignorant of it after sitting there and having a special personal relationship with the Leader?

I got news for you, this will not sell. Barack has some major damage control to do.

I live in Illinois voted for Obama for the senate but this is not the same person I listened to at the 2004 convention and he will not win unles he explains this congregation and his association with them in context to the racial victimization that obviously is plentifully expoused there.

I would not just have left this church, I would have stood up and challenged the church to stop damning generations to the failure of victimization.

This has hit me very hard all of the sudden today.

[IsItJustMe]

19. I am not stunned at all. You have an outrageous candidate that is going around making very

dishonest and utterly ridiculous arguments. That pisses people off. Every body reacts different when they are pissed of. This is the way this pastor reacts. So the fuck what. Who gives a shit.

If you want something to be honestly stunned about, think about the 1 million dead Iraqis and the 4,000 dead American soldiers and then get back with me.

Too many people are too easily being stunned about absolute bull shit.

[stillcool]

132. The good thing is...

it's getting very obvious. The 'outrage' is laughable. Way more than another preacher is needed to hit the "catastrophic event" mark, that will render Senator Obama unelectable and hand Clinton the nomination.

[jeffrey_X]

20. Are you saying they run their sermons by Obama first?

thanks.

[Bucky]

29. No, I'm saying he should act like a leader and pastor, not like a clown.

Our job as Democrats is to bring our party together and save this country from another four years of Bush-by-surrogate. I'm pissed off at anyone who obstructs our healing. I'm pissed at Clinton for being divisive and I'm pissed at Pfleger for the same offense.

[jeffrey_X]

149. What does that have to do with Obama?

Please pull it all together for me.

[beachmom]

22. I think Obama should leave that church. I completely understand

why he joined the church:

1. Community outreach, helping the poor
2. Tolerant to gays and lesbians, unlike a lot of black churches
3. Wright's intellectual mind. He could keep up with Obama. Far more attractive than the more literal fundamentalist church.

All good reasons. BUT, he is running a national campaign now. Frankly, he has been ill served by his advisers -- they KNEW this was going to be a problem when Wright was not allowed to speak when Obama declared his run for the presidency in Springfield, IL. And yet, he still remained a member of the church and no advance damage control was done. We have to face up to the fact that Farrakhan hails from Chicago, and many churches in the city are connected with him. We also have to acknowledge that many in the black community in Chicago have anti-semitic views. I don't know why. They actually dubbed Obama being too Jewish-friendly when he ran against Bobby Rush. So clearly, Obama is not like that, but had to deal with it in order to represent his district in the state Senate.

Obama needs to leave that church, and join another one. The whole thing sucks, since I am sure there are so many wonderful people at United Trinity Church. But the bad stuff is all we're going to see, what with oppo researches camped out there. He should join a church that is less controversial but upholds his values. I wonder if Michelle Obama has another denomination in her family background that they could start attending.

[Bucky]

35. Yes, Wright, for all his shenanigans, at least was a thoughtful performer.

This Pfleger guy seems like a straight up clown. I can't believe any serious church would invite this guy as a guest in their pulpit.

I never thought Obama needed to change churches. But I can see the strengths in the argument for him doing that now.

[Inuca]

72. I tend to agree

though, on the other hand, I cringe to think of how such a decision would be dissected and interpreted.

[Raineyb]

122. Religion has no place in our politics

And no one has any business telling candidates where they can and cannot worship.

This is bloody typical I must say. A guest preacher says something outrageous and somehow it's Obama's fault. Meanwhile, didn't Ferraro say something vile not two to three days ago and no one has called Senator Clinton out about it publicly as far as I can remember. Obama is not responsible for every utterance that comes out of the pulpit of his church. We should not be holding him responsible for any such utterances. Furthermore, we shouldn't be paying the damn church any attention in the first place as it has absolutely no relevance on his ability to lead.

Not for nothing, but this all reeks of some white folks problems with liberation theology. There are some groups who feel that black people should just accept their role as second class citizens worship quietly every week and get their reward when they die. Just another reason to stay the hell out of the church in my not so humble opinion.

Regards

[Kaylee]

124. Amen.

[madrchsod]

25. he`s not barack`s pastor...

he`s a very controversial priest in chicago with his own church. he was a guest at the church where barack attends. i can not understand why anyone would go bat shit crazy over this. barack has said what all that needs to be said about this non-issue.

why was this released a few days before the dnc meeting and the scotty book...who has the most to gain by releasing this to the media?

[beachmom]

30. The problem was that the members of the church expressed appreciation

for his rant. That is why Obama must leave that church and join a dull one that puts everyone to sleep.

[madrchsod]

34. wright is no longer the pastor of the church

therefore why would barack go to another church...

[beachmom]

112. Because now something has happened AGAIN. Will more stupid things

be said at that church?

[Politics_Guy25]

120. The OP is spot on

My first thought when I saw this yesterday evening was fuck this shit. I'm tired of Trinity trying to destroy our nominee. First Wright and now Pfleigger. Trinity United can go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.

[flpoljunkie]

28. Have to agree wiith Barnacle on MSNBC, who's had enough of the crazy preachers on both sides!

Barnacle said this this twice on MSNBC's Morning Joe--the second time to David Axelrod, Obama's chief campaign strategist. Barnacle specifically mentioned Hagee, Wright and Pfleger--altho failed to note the crazed televangelist Reverend Rod Parsley, who's endorsed John McCain.

Pfleger has apologized, and correctly noted that his words were "inconsistent with Senator Obama's life and message."

"I regret the words I chose on Sunday. These words are inconsistent with Senator Obama's life and message, and I am deeply sorry if they offended Senator Clinton or anyone else who saw them."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/05/obama_deeply_disappointed_in_f_1.html

[Doityourself]

44. He also said, he had an inferiority complex..and tried to act like some "black" preacher..I was like

huh..as if all black preachers act in such a way. How insulting.

[flpoljunkie]

55. I missed that. What a dumb thing for Barnacle to say!

[Doityourself]

74. Yeah, it was dumb, but I understood what he meant, I just didn't like the broad brush..I've known

many black preachers in my day, some are like Rev. Wright with their theatrics, quite a few are not.

[madrchsod]

46. funny the father smacked down fox news a month ago

and he was a hero now because he gives one of his usual rants about what he see`s is wrong he`s no longer creditable.

he`s no angel but no one in the arch diocese has been able to get rid of him...

[flpoljunkie]

59. Interesting. The father must have a following.

[ieoeja]

121. The Roman Catholic church actually has a rule limiting the years a priest may remain in one spot.

Pfleger got an exemption because his flock raised holy hell when they heard he was being transferred out.

So, yes, he is EXTREMELY popular. He is like a televangelist who spends all his time working on social issues instead of begging for money.

[PassingFair]

39. Churches!

What happens in church should STAY in church.

It's why I WON'T go to church.

Like I NEED someone, ANYONE, PREACHING to me.
EVER!

The only qualm I have about Obama is that
he will let the "faith-based initiatives"
stand.

[chascarrillo]

45. I'm stunned that people think that the clips of this sermon are objectionable.

But people have a way of surprising me...

[SeaLyons]

47. I agree with your post....(except I'm a Hillary supporter)

and I don't think the majority of Americans agree with the large number of Obama supporters on this board that think this man was funny. Teaching hate and bigotry is not too funny.

[BigDDem]

49. This guys a nut-case

Maybe he, "Reverend" Wright and Farrakhan can hold a big ole' rally for BO.

[slinkerwink]

50. I didn't think that was funny at all. I don't like it when pastors from the right or left

use politics at the pulpit.

[fed_up_mother]

51. Well said. Thank you from another Obama supporter

What a bunch of backstabbing #$^##$@ looking for their ten minutes of fame.

And, sadly, I suspect that this stuff will drip, drip, drip until November.

These are not true Obama supporters. NOT.

[NotThisTime]

52. Why is it Obama's church only? What about the likes of Manning or Hagee or Parsley?

No, it's just anything from Obama's church, ANYTHING at all. This guy should be on SNL that is true, he shouldn't be in church, but his antics were no where near the likes of some of these pastors/preachers/reverends in each one of the candidates profiles.

[genna]

57. What is hate speech?

I have been struggling to figure out how this Father's words constitute hate speech. I went to wikipedia and came up with this patch to make me understand.

Concepts of what qualifies as hate speech broadened in the late twentieth century to include certain views expressed from an ideological standpoint. For instance, some feminists consider jokes about women or lesbians to be hate speech. Recently, the Canadian government added sexual orientation to the list of relevant characteristics eligible for protection from hate speech. Not everyone accepts that there is a difference between classic forms of hate speech, which were incitements to hatred or even to physical harm, and the use of language that merely shows disrespect. Some discussions between politically right wing and left wing can be viewed as hateful, even though the language used by both sides is not normally classified as hate speech. However, some argue that such comments demean and undermine the individuals and so should qualify as hate speech.

I understand that you were offended. I respect that, but when I read this I have to say: Where are you taking us?

Pfleger is seems to be out there trying to whip up racial divisions. Would Jesus do that? No, I think Jesus drove people like that out of the temple. Christians are supposed to believe in healing. This man has not interest in healing--his intent is to divide and create hatreds and animosity.

Racial divisions? Whipping up racial divisions?

How do you think black people hear HRC saying that she has a broad coalition and has said her base is white voters?


I am black. I don't think that myself or anyone who is looks like me is pleased hearing that. Also, I don't think talking about we hear in saying white voters are her broad coalition is divisive.

Where is the outrage in talking like that?


For months, I have read criticisms of black voters for voting for Obama because they are black. I haven't read we need to clean this filth out of the Democratic party.


As for black churches practicing our faith, I think you should go to some and see if your idea of healing is being practiced.

[Jersey Devil]

61. You guys don't get it - What was really funny was that he is a priest

Unless you are Catholic (like I am), you have no idea how boring a Catholic Mass usually is. A long, detailed communion ritual with a few Gospel readings (without comment) and a "sermon" that is usually so boring and non-controversial that it puts you to sleep. So, when you see a priest get up there and start acting like a standup comedian on steriods it's pretty forken funny no matter what he says.

I mean, priests just don't do those kinds of gigs and are NEVER funny, unless you consider jokes that nobody ever seems to get about the Holy Ghost "funny".

So, sure he shouldn't have said that stuff. But as a Catholic I found it hysterically funny to see a priest go nuts like that.

[Lisa0825]

86. I thought he looked more like a stand-up comic than a priest.

If he'd pulled that act on Letterman, it would have been a more appropriate setting.

[Fredda Weinberg]

64. Bias crimes are back up in Crown Heights. Apparently, it doesn't

matter because the victims are Orthodox Jews.

You're right. Thank you for speaking up.

[Inuca]

76. I 100% agree with the OP, BUT

what on earth has this to do with crimes in Crown Heights?

[Fredda Weinberg]

81. Hate crimes. Violence for the ethnic pride ... and you should hear

the hate speech on the streets of downtown Brooklyn and midtown Manhattan. It's also on public access.

Hate speech matters ... we should denounce it, period. Thank you for your support.

[Thrill]

66. Preachers say anything. You can't stop them. We see that from some of the most popular Televangelist

[Inuca]

67. Agree, gross and inappropriate

and hurtful, it could not have been said at a worse moment, now when healing and getting back together is paramount.

[npincus]

71. Damn straight- truly disgusting and extremely counter-productive

to Obama's campaign. And, a great distraction from the damning substance of McClellan's book.

[ProSense]

73. More BS outrage!

It's like all the reject and denounce around Farrakhan from Hillary's camp, but not a peep about Ed Rendell's praise of him.

Defend Hillary's assassination comment, but get all outraged at someone mocking Hillary's tears.

Timeline:

Rev. Pfleger makes comment

Obama denounces comment

Rev. Pfleger apologizes

Hillary campaign isn't interested in apologies or denouncements

Hillary's campaign still outraged, still carrying on, still being hypocrites

[Inuca]

80. I don't think it's BS ProSense

the fact that the Hilary camp wants to exploit this is a different story, and I do not think they should. If they wanted to actually do what they preach, they should NOT try to get all the mileage they can get out of this, since there isn't any significant mileage left on their bus in any case. But what the guy said was wrong (even if many here, me included, agree with PART of what he said), should not have been said, especially in that particular venue, and he is an idiot for having said it.

[ProSense]

82. No, it's BS

The fact that Obama denounced the comment doesn't mean he is responsible for everything everyone says. His denouncement was a courtesy.

This is a man who has nothing to do with Obama's campaign and isn't his pastor.

Ferraro is friends with Hillary, was on her campaign finance committee, should Hillary be forced to repudiate all the ridiculous comments Ferraro is making?

This is complete BS.

[Inuca]

89. I agree with what you say here

I only meant that what's his name's comments WERE outrageous and stupid. I agree though that it should not reflect on Obama. But the media being what it is (not to mention the Clinton camp), the link IS there. I dared turn to Fox for a short while yesterday, I don't think I even have to mention what I saw and heard... Chris Matthews was quite nice this morning, basically saying "why on earth are we talking about this? can we please talk about McClellan? but Mika, it's your show, so I will talk about whatever you want me to". And Mika kept coming back to this :-(. I watch too much TV, I know...

[beachmom]

119. I propose a preacher ceasefire. McCain & friends can't complain about Obama's preachers

(and this Catholic priest has connections to Obama) and Obama can't complain about McCain's preachers. Anyone who breaks the truce will be pummelled with Preacher fodder.

As to Hillary, her campaign will have folded hopefully within two weeks.

[beachmom]

113. Well the Hillary campaign is hypocritical as usual. BUT, what the priest

said was stupid AND it was purely political at a church. I just am opposed to this sort of talk at a church. Separation of church and state is really a fantastic idea. Thank you Thomas Jefferson for your wisdom. "Preacher eruptions" seems to be the theme of the 2008 campaign for Obama and McCain. What it tells us is that churches should not be directly involved with politics.

[barack the house]

88. Sen. Obama just needs to highlight that this is a past we must progress from..

It shows mistrust still lies in communities but the campaign and his potential presidency is working for that more perfect union. Clearly in the campaign we have come across 2 communities lacking trust and only real knowledge of what unites us can bring people together and in the end everyone should wish for a more United states. The road will take time but it is something he profoundly believes in.

[genna]

97. Two communities trying to reach an understanding when there is a great deal of mistrust

That sound better than the OP thread.


Straw man argument
If you reject and denounce the entire line of pastors, the church who houses the pastor, the entire community who shares the belief, and anyone in the party who says something you don't like, then the party itself...when do you stop?

Intolerance has to be broken down somewhere.


I'll say it again. How does the Democratic party manage to house the KY and WV constituencies alongside African Americans?

When you visibly side with the group who will never vote for an African American, you have chosen something basic. It works the other way too, when you side with the African American, you have chose something basic too.

[helderheid]

91. Okay, I've obviously been under a rock. What is this about? Link?

[Marrah_G]

102. Just another bigot who campaigned for Obama in the pews of Obama's church...

... in a racially divisive way.

I have to wonder- Are they stupid or are they TRYING to hurt Obama?

[demokatgurrl]

137. TRYING, I am convinced. n/t

[izzybeans]

94. Father Pflegler has done more for social justice then nearly everyone

on this forum. He knows a thing or two about white entitlement, he's been fighting it his entire professional life.

Visit the south side of Chicago, you'll understand why Hillary's crying looked arrogant. It in fact is a mock worthy moment in history. She was crying because "she has so much to give". She wasn't mourning those in need, those dead or dying, she was mourning her status as the front runner who knew her hold on power was slipping. The arrogance of those tears made me cringe.

That said, the double standard here is gigantic. We are supposed to hold Obama accountable for every south side Christian leader who says politically incorrect things. Yet...the other side can say and do horrible things and we're supposed to handle them with kid gloves. Well boo fucking hoo. Obama would not and will not support this type of talk anyway. He's above it and it is telling that the establishment is dragging him into it.

White entitlement indeed...

[genna]

98. what izzybeans said

:kick:

[Raineyb]

128. Here here !

Well said!

:applause:

Regards

[nichomachus]

96. Can we please pause for a minute . . .

to talk about the leader of the right-wing theocratic cult that Hillary associates with -- and whom she has not repudiated?

[genna]

99. what nichomachus said

:kick:

[glitch]

103. Thank you.

Going after Obama's religious connections, even tenuous ones like this, seems very rovian to me (attack your opponents strengths, especially you have a vulnerability in the same area).
Yes, this one is worth a :puke:
So sick of this type of politics. The empty gotcha. Uh oh, here it comes again: :puke:

[janet118]

115. I guess Hillary's semi-secret right-wing cult has no video

"Hillary's Minister Problem"

http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/clinton-fellowship.php

[redqueen]

117. Is it on the boob toob? Any video?

If it requires reading... well... *changes channel*

[janet118]

100. Actually, it reminded me of Clinton's mocking of Obama

Remember when she was trying to be funny by imitating Obama's call for hope. The Catholic priest mimicking Hillary was a lot funnier but about the same level of playful sarcasm. If Obama had done it himself, I would have considered it over the top. But it was a guest minister at his church, not him.

On the other hand, Hillary did her own Obama impersonation and it made her look stupid and petty. I did not notice a huge outcry from her supporters who seemed to think it was very funny. I did not think it was well done enough to be funny, but I was not "outraged." It's part of campaigning. Obama got in a few swats with his Annie Oakley riff on Hillary.

Save your outrage, folks. The worst is yet to come when the GOP and John McCain rev up their evil attack machine for the general election and the media echo machine does their dirty work for them.

[IndyOp]

104. Let's get unified. The sky will open. The light will come down. Celestial choirs will come down.

And everyone will do the right thing and the world will be perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVGWPPuihQ8

[janet118]

105. Yeah, that's the one

Pretty lame, eh?

[Tom Rinaldo]

126. Maybe a similar mocking tone

The content however is much more controversial. This priest just claimed that Hillary Clinton is angry that a black man is beating her, not simply that she is upset at losing. The content is explicitly racial and Hillary Clinton was explicitly called a racist. There was nothing remotely that inflamatory in Hillary Clinton's speech.

[scheming daemons]

158. Except that OBAMA DIDN'T SAY IT... you keep glossing over that point

Obama can only be held accountable for his own words and those words that come from people in his campaign.


Pfleger is NEITHER.


Words straight from Hillary's mouth carry MUCH MORE weight than words from some guest priest at a church Obama belongs to.


It is disingenuous and downright WRONG to pin the words of someone else on Obama - especially when those words come from someone who is not affiliated with Obama's campaign.

[Tom Rinaldo]

162. I'm not glossing over that point. I agree with you, Others here pointed out a similarity

I pointed out a major difference. But of course that fact that this wasn't Obama's own comment is fundemental.

[helderheid]

130. Good point.

ETA, I don't understand why the pastor had to drag race into it though.

[Blue_Roses]

101. I agree

and well said

[ElsewheresDaughter]

111. i agree....nice Oba Linclon pic you got there ;)

[ShortnFiery]

116. I'm LMFAO - a true performer. 5 Stars! He's both brusque and spot on! eom

[tandot]

118. I couldn't agree more.

It will be an issue dragged up by GOP swift-boaters in the GE. Things like this shouldn't be an issue, however, they'll make sure the media covers it. The more the media talks about things like that, the less they talk about the war, economy, health care, and other important issues.

[azmouse]

139. I thought this priest remarks were disgusting and uncalled for.

Was he TRYING to sink the Obama candidacy? How could he not know that he was being filmed and that it would be all over the news in no time at all? He wanted the attention for himself and didn't care what damage or embarrassment it could cause Obama.
I hope his church reprimands him.

[reflection]

146. I'm with you on that.

It doesn't affect my position with respect to Obama, but a lot of people are going to be real turned off by this. What a patently stupid comedy act. He might as well be a Hillary supporter if he thinks that's going to help Obama.

[Raineyb]

143. Okay, I finally saw the video

It was an interesting way to discuss privilege in this country and a certain candidate's sense of entitlement. I can see how some folks may get themselves up in arms about it but it really isn't that serious.

Although I am now quite interested in attending Mass at the good father's parish. It sounds like it would be a lot more interesting than most masses I've attended.

Faux outrage for a slow news day I guess.

Gee I thought there was a war that should garner more attention than this snippet.

Regards

[Overseas]

144. That's what Harold Ickes' team wanted you to feel. They are desperate.

The CLinton team will continue scouring the archives for any and all potentially inflammatory speakers at that church. They need to sow doubt. O|"Oh dear, another pastor problem for Obama." Doesn't matter whether Obama was even there that day. We need the Superdelegates to shut Ickes' desperate team down. Enough already. Rightwingers dredging church audio is different from fellow Democrat trashing.

[2rth2pwr]

145. Can Obama's stance that he had no idea what was going on in his church continue to be operative?

[Overseas]

150. Doesn't matter -- Desperate Obama bashing will continue

They'll use any inflammatory speaker they can find in the church archives. Doesn't even matter if Obama was in the church that day. They just need to raise a spectre -- "Oooh, another pastor problem for Obama." They are desperate to bash Obama by any means necessary. He apologizes and they draw up another news item about how the apology is unsatisfactory. Enough already.

[scheming daemons]

159. Pfleger is not a member of Obama's church. Obama doesn't clear the text of sermons

by guest preachers at his church.


How on earth can you, with a straight face, hold Obama even one iota responsible for the words of a Roman Catholic Priest that is a guest preacher at the church Obama is a member of?


Seriously.... in what universe can Obama have even one OUNCE of blame for Pfleger's remarks?

[totodeinhere]

164. Why is what is going on in his church relevant at all to the campaign?

Gas prices, home foreclosures, the war in Iraq, health care, and the environment among other things are important. His church is not.

[dchill]

148. All is Vanity.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2000.
Ecclesiastes - OR, THE PREACHER 1.

All Is Vanity
1. The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
2. Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
3. What profit hath a man of all his labor which he taketh under the sun?
4. One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
5. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hasteth to his place where he arose.
6. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits.
7. All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full: unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
8. All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9. The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
11. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

The Experience of the Preacher
12. ¶ I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
13. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
14. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
15. That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.
16. ¶ I communed with mine own heart, saying, Lo, I am come to great estate, and have gotten more wisdom than all they that have been before me in Jerusalem: yea, my heart had great experience of wisdom and knowledge. 1 Kgs. 4.29-31
17. And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
18. For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

[scheming daemons]

157. Pfleger just uttered what right-wing talk radio says about Hillary every day.....

...and yet McCain doesn't have to answer for it.


How on earth is Obama even REMOTELY responsible for what this guy said? How is he even 1% responsible?

[wowimthere]

160. it's why religion shouldn't even be pondered in the election arena

I think the "Right" wants to continue to marry religion to politics simply because you state you are a Christian or Jew or Catholic or Muslim or whatever. Learn not to take what religious leaders say and apply them full board to politics. I've learned to separate this stuff out. Obama cannot be responsible for what every associate says or does. Stop this. It's beyond stupid to keep the religious statements of a pastor or former pastor in the public square only to tie it to a candidate. The issues front and center are what the candidates say about Iraq, the Economy, Healthcare and where they want to take this country.