"Obama's" Church? WTF?

[LawSchoolLiberal]

The right-wing talking heads and the MSM seem to be trying to tie Reverend Pfelger to Obama as closely as Reverend Wright, constantly focusing on the fact that the recorded sermon "was in his church." I fail to understand how or why no one is pointing out (or, hey, even dismissing) the fact that he was a guest (Catholic) speaker in the (Unitarian) church. Or the fact that no one has ever asserted that Obama was there at the time. I wonder what guest preachers at McLame's Pheonix Baptist church have had to say? Because CLEARLY the MSM will hold him responsible for those statements. :eyes:

[saigon68]

1. WTF is right

The Scum Sucking NEOCONS are out to hypnotize the SHEEP

[shraby]

2. I wasn't aware that Obama was in charge of a church.

He attends one, but as far as I know there is no "Obama's church." It belongs to the congregation as a whole.

[JoFerret]

49. He should dump that church

and all religion.
And so should every other candidate.

[trueblue2007]

65. Obama chose that church. He attended it all those years.

No one forced him to go there. No one forced him to choose those smarmy pastors!!

[AspenRose]

3. Yes, a Muslim with an Evangelical pastor and Catholic priest

Makes sense to me! :sarcasm: :crazy:

[JoFerret]

50. ...and all three of them

sickos.

Well...two of them as I don't think there is a Muslim involved.

This religious stuff is such crap. Obama is way too wrapped up it it. Just like most other politicians.

[redqueen]

4. RW talking heads? M$M? Uh... DUERS are using that BS RW framing.

There's that clue-phone again...

[stray cat]

5. welcome to DU!

A guest Catholic preacher is such a reach its unbelivable there trying to make a story out of it. I guess at what point the priest had been one of many religious consultants for the campaign.

[tridim]

6. Nobody is buying the bullshit, except the professional bullshit buyers.

[cliffordu]

23. LOL "Yes, Alex, I'll take Spanish Bullshit for twenty dollars......"

[LaurenG]

7. Go back to Scotty McClellan's comments on the msm.

It still fits even in this case. Journalism is a lost art, now we have screaming/talking heads.

[stray cat]

8. Breaking! Obama must apologize for the crusades

[TahitiNut]

55. It's Barack Obama's duty as the newly-elected Pope Hussein I.

Isn't it obvious?

[TexasObserver]

9. White media people can never get enough of black churches

At its core, this is about how some white people get their extremely tight asses bent out of shape over the style of elocution which prevails at some black churches.

[crankychatter]

24. good catch, you fuggin eh RIGHT

frickin ethnocentric, tight assed, white bread, homogenized suburban non-culture

they never leave the TV bubble

[avenger64]

10. I think Obama and he were friends before this sermon ...

... they had some kind of ties to each other. Again, this is going to be potent ammo for the right if Obama gets the nomination. BO comes from a culture of victimization. He's been surrounded by a group of people who point fingers, or blame White America for all of their problems. There's a lot of people in the Democratic party who share this worldview, but they're vastly outnumbered by Democrats and Americans who believe in personal responsibility and 'owning your mistakes'. That's a social dynamic that runs through the history of the country - check out Emerson's 'Self-Reliance' essay.

But that's why the right shows things like this insane gay priest railing and creating a scene - they want to tie Obama to this type of culture. He needs to be smart and distance himself from all of this.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

"Culture of victimization", huh? What culture would that be?

[avenger64]

14. Go read Obama's first book - Dreams from my Father ...

... he details all of this himself.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

15. I've read it. I want *you* to clarify your own words.

[avenger64]

18. Did you understand it?

Doesn't seem like you'd have to ask, then. But, OK, Obama talks about how some (and not all) African-Americans blame the white man for everything wrong in their communities, and even for the mistakes they themselves make. Obama writes, in admirably candid style, about how there was an impulse to both accept and resist these types of explanations of the way of the world. From a practical standpoint, he needs to do more resisting than accepting these days.

Jeremiah Wright appears to have been the high priest of this racial 'blame game'. His speeches are going to be fodder for the right until November. Obama needs to stay clear of all of this.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. Then how does Obama "come from" the culture of victimization?

He has never blamed whites for anything in this campaign. Does the very fact that he's black make him subject to being lumped in with this culture forever?

[avenger64]

22. Well, he comes from them in the sense that he ...

.. hung out with them, they were part of his life.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

26. That does not equal "coming from".

[Jazzgirl]

59. Are you at the right place?? n/t

[rebel with a cause]

Lets see exactly what you are saying.

White people brought from Africa the first slaves to the new world starting in 1502. This is when the Spanairds brought slaves to the island of Hispanolia. It seems most of the Taino indians had been worked to death as slave labor or had killed themselves to escape the abuse. Slaves were later brought to the mainland to provide cheap labor, kept in chains they endured horrendous abuse for the trip and their time spent in slavery. That doesn't give them any right to feel hard at the white man. That ended about 145 years ago.

Following the end of slavery, there were Jim Crow laws that kept the African American population "in their place" and prohibited them from having the same rights as the white population. Now they were not the only non-white population to suffer from such abuse, but they still suffered it just the same. There was that separate but equal thing, where we showed them that to use the same water fountain or to swim in the same pool might cause us whites to get some of their cooties. That supposedly ended around 40 years ago.

Following the Civil Rights laws, African American people have had to hear how they were getting privileges undue them because of these laws. Some of them made great progress, and we said "Look, we don't need those pesky laws anymore. We are all equal." In the meantime, there continued to be a difference made in how the European American and the African American was seen and treated both in their personal lives and professional lives. I haven't seen any Black womam grab her purse or her child when a white person walks by. I have seen that action from white women when a Non-white person approachs. (I use non-white because I have seen this behavior toward my own children as well.) This supposedly should end any day now.

Yeah, it is Rev Wright and people like him that make African Americans feel the anger they may feel. Now those living today have nothing to do with what happened 100 years ago, but we have profited from it and we should be aware of it. Some of the white people living today may not have anything to do with what happened 40 years ago, but we should be aware of it and understand that anger can still exist. We all have something to do with what happens today, every time we say nothing when we hear or see racism occur, we are encouraging it and guilty of being an enabler. I don't blame the people of other groups for being angry. I don't blame them for saying what I would be saying if this was my history, my today. I feel angry for just what has happened to my children, and it does not compare to what some have had to endure in their lifetimes.

My mother taught me to walk a mile in the other man's shoes. Perhaps that is a good thing for all the white people to do that don't understand the anger that others possess toward us as a people. I don't hate myself (white guilt syndrome) but I sure hate the things some of my ancestors have done and some of my "so called race" continue to do. It is needless to say that not all AAs are angry and all of any people should not be lumped together. Some people may just want to change the way the world is, and I think that is Obama. Like my children, he has seen the world from both sides, and he has the desire to bring his two worlds together, and I hope he succeeds.

Edited to add something I forgot to say.

[avenger64]

48. There's no more slavery, there's no more Jim Crow ...

... neither is an excuse, and gangs today are a far more serious problem for the black community and society at large.

I do understand the anger that exists among african-americans, but I'm also suggesting that focusing on it could hurt the democratic candidate. That was the point of my original post - he needs to put his ideas for remedying our (vast set of) problems out there, and lay off the victimization. Or he will lose.

[Jazzgirl]

60. Unemployment is a far more serious problem

for the black community than gangs. And where does Obama act victimized?

[SeaLyons]

13. how do you do that when it's been a part of your life for 20+

years. How do you convince people you do not follow the same beliefs?

[avenger64]

16. Well, you definitely don't set foot in that church again ...

... for starters. But I agree that it's an uphill climb.

[jaxx]

21. You take the best and leave the rest.

Same as anything....people are never 100% in agreement on issues, let alone religion. It's why there are so many little factions out there...the my god is better than your god theology.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

38. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Hannity. nt

[Critters2]

11. A minor point...Trinity isn't Unitarian. nt.

[LawSchoolLiberal]

17. Oops.

United Church of Christ. My apologies. (Apparently my memory is going...)

[Critters2]

25. It's okay. I actually got a chuckle out of the idea of

"Trinity Unitarian Church: the church of the holy oxymoron".

[polmaven]

39. Now THAT is funny!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[TahitiNut]

54. (lol!) Terrific catch! DUzy!

:rofl:

[Bucky]

42. Apology accepted on behalf of my fellow DU UUs. But seriously...

The raving lunatics who guest-preach in our Unitarian-Universalist churches are a whole bunch more tolerant that that guy!

[Critters2]

12. The issue is endorsement of a candidate--any candidate--

from a pulpit--any pulpit. IRS rules don't allow partisan politics by any 501c3 organization. Trinity needs to start paying taxes.

[crankychatter]

27. you have NOTHIN to say about RightWing Church endorsements

therefore, you have no credibility

[polmaven]

40. Just how do you KNOW

the poster has "NOTHIN to say about RightWing Church endorsements"? Have you read the poster's comments in the other threads?

[Overseas]

20. So sick of the CLintons desperate Obama bashing.

Enough is enough already. The Superdelegates need to shut the ugly Ickes machine down.The end result will still be Obama as our candidate. The Clinton team must be told to close up camp. Enough already. It now really does seem like they want to destroy Obama's chances so Clinton can come back in 2012. They drop dumb negatives into the picture and the public just remembers "pastor problem again" about Obama. The longer we leave the Clinton team operating, the more gross and dumb slurs they will employ. And truth does not matter. Innuendo works sometimes. The Democratic Party cannot afford to allow the icky Ickes machine to bring us all down with it.

[shaniqua6392]

31. This church crap does not have anything to do with the Clinton's.

This church crap will NOT go away even after she suspends her campaign. This is great material for the GOP and McCain and they are not going to hesitate to use it. Then will we still be blaming the Clinton's for what a pastor at Obama's church has said??? It is raining at my house today and it is all Hillary's fault!! Blah....Blah....Blah.

[TahitiNut]

57. Bullshit

The Clinton campaign repeated on Friday, for a second day, its displeasure with how Mr. Obama has handled the situation, calling for him to reject Father Pfleger more forcefully.

In a statement issued Thursday, Mr. Obama, who was not at the church during the sermon, said he was “deeply disappointed” with Father Pfleger’s “backward-looking” remarks.

The Clinton camp said it had hoped for more.

“Divisive and hateful language like that is totally counterproductive in our efforts to bring our party together and have no place at the pulpit or in our politics,” said Howard Wolfson, a spokesman for Mrs. Clinton. “We are disappointed that Senator Obama didn’t specifically reject Father Pfleger’s despicable comments about Senator Clinton, and assume he will do so.”

On Friday, an Obama spokesman said the campaign had nothing new to add.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/31/us/politics/31pastor.html?em&ex=1212379200&en=208db31f090a85d6&ei=5087%0A

Try using that manure on your lawn or garden instead of spreading it in here, OK? Thanks. :hi:

[MGKrebs]

28. This is a story because

Obama is "preaching" a message of hope, and "coming together". Experiences in his world that are at odds with that are automatic MSM stories. If some guest at McCain's church were to get up there and slam anyone who supports this war, then I'm pretty sure that would be a story too. Not only that, this is the second documented example of such divisiveness at this church, so the media smell the beginnings of a pattern. Of course they are going to cover it.

[LaurenG]

29. Yes and he stills "preaches" it

I think we should go look up all past associations with all the candidates and then lets make an issue of them. Guilt by association now huh?


And the msm covered the war and sat in the same room with Bush, listening to his crap year after year, knowing he was lying, so they are responsible for all the crap out of George Bush, yes that's right and if he goes to jail, they'll have to serve his term with him. We'll charge them with conspiracy to commit all kinds of horrible and hateful crimes! :eyes:

That's why this is just hypocritical madness.

[MGKrebs]

35. What's wrong with guilt by association?

Of COURSE we are judged by the company we keep, ESPECIALLY for our leaders and potential leaders. Surely we wouldn't want it any other way?

[LaurenG]

36. Oh good grief. He knows of the guy. You know of bush, you must be guilty of war crimes

or at the very least unfit for something. :eyes:

[MGKrebs]

37. See, you are oversimplifying to try to make a point, but the point is not made

because of the oversimplification.

Obama has been going to that church for a long time.
Obama espouses a message of unity and togetherness.
There are now two dramatic, documented cases from his church of sermons preaching divisiveness.

This brings up the legitimate question (in some peoples minds) of whether Obama is sincere in his message or if it is just a campaign slogan. If he doesn't BELIEVE what's going on in his church of faith, then why is he still there? This matters for people who will have to make up their minds about a candidate. Even if he is sincere, can that message really survive in the current political landscape?

It is very similar, at least to me, to the Edwards stories about his haircuts and big house. Those would not have been stories at all EXCEPT for the fact that he was talking so much about poverty. It raises questions of sincerity in peoples minds. We didn't hear stories about the other candidates houses because there wasn't anything inconsistent about them living in big houses. (Of course there isn't a problem in principle for a rich person to help alleviate poverty, but one is expected to not flaunt one's wealth while doing so.)

And ultimately, I think this is the kind of thing that really challenges the message of "hope" and "new politics". Obama has done very well so far defending himself while managing to maintain the aura of higher principles, but I think that there are a lot of jaded and cynical people out there, many reporters included, who don't really believe that that can be sustained. Politicians MUST take sides, and they MUST make difficult decisions, and I think there is some presumption that sooner or later cold, hard, political reality will in this way interrupt the "dream". If that happens, many will blame the forces of "politics as usual" for destroying yet another potential shining moment in history, but perhaps the truth is that we are just expecting too much of one person. It's just a politician for crying out loud. It's just one man. Sometimes we swing dangerously close to a theocracy. There sure seems to be plenty of people who desire such a leader, to whom we are willing to cede ultimate power with the expectation of supernatural results.

[LaurenG]

46. We disagree over the simplification of it

People will make an issue of those things they are convinced are needing attention. I don't care who said stupid things in anyones church. As long as Obama didn't speak that bile, I'm fine.

I haven't cared about the stupid things that Senator Clinton has said (directly out of her mouth; other then the assassination comment).

The only people who give a darn are those who want to see him fail. The republicans and Senator Clinton supporters?

As far as the "dream", I've been around the block a few time and realize that all humans have "feet of clay", I am not expecting miracles and I know that whoever wins will have a tough year or two trying to change anything, so that point is wasted on me.

I am adamantly opposed to another corporate president intent on or happy to brutalize any more countries; that leaves Senator Clinton out.

[polmaven]

43. I agree..to a point...

that yes, we are judged by the company we keep, but I do not believe for a minute that Senator Obama "kept company" with this priest.

He knows him, yes...but I was really, really angered when the rabid Obama supporters tried to say that there was no difference between his association with Rev. Wright and that of President Clinton simply because Wright had been to a Prayer Breakfast at the White House and the president shook his hand.

His connection may be a little more than that, but I really don't thing they were "buddies".

[MGKrebs]

51. This preachers' actions do not affect MY perception of Obama.

I have already concluded that Obama is not some divisive, mean-spirited, militant, Black Muslim threat to society (or whatever it is that people fear about him) and this incident did nothing to change that perception. But there are plenty of people out there who aren't so sure yet, and so I think it's completely relevant for the media to pursue this story.

And I don't think it is the personal relationship with this particular speaker that is the issue. It is the overall attitude and perspective of this church and it's congregation. If Wright has a certain attitude, and he's inviting guys like Pfleger to come speak and he's got an attitude, and the congregation is accepting to this kind of rhetoric, then we start to get a little uneasy. Especially since Obama has had to work pretty hard just to solidify his Christian cred anyway. To end up with what appears to be a somewhat non-mainstream Christian church isn't really helpful at first glance.


Either Obama will handle this well and reassure those who need to be reassured or he won't. Whether it's this story or another one, at least some of those people will still need to be reassured before this is all over.

[anonymous171]

30. HE IS A CATHOLIC PRIEST, HIS TITLE IS "FATHER"

[Bake]

32. Catholic, Protestant, WHATEVER ...

The problem is the content of the sermon, which was met with cheers by the congregation. Can they just not stop themselves from shooting off their mouths at Trinity? Are they totally un-freakin'-aware of the damage they caused last time, that they must do it all over again? Can they not just STFU and leave politics out of it????

And you wonder why some of us "white bread" (love that racial stereotype, by the way) types cringe at this shit?

And politics from the pulpit (especially candidate endorsement) is WRONG, and I don't give a damn whether it's from the left or the right. If they do it, they should lose their tax-exempt status. Maybe they ought to lose it anyway.

Bake

[stillcool]

52. You "white bread" types..

have a problem with black people in black churches. The white Catholic priest is not at fault, it is those black people in that black church. You have no problem with the "white bread" preachers who advocate assassination and annihilation, or their white bread congregants who cheer them on.

[Bake]

61. Wrong (or should I say "FAIL").

I do have a problem with the "white bread" preachers who advocate anything other than the Gospel of love and peace, AND their "white bread" congregants who cheer them on. I'm pretty sure I made that crystal clear. See whatever you want to see.

Keep on, by the way, calling us "white bread" and see if your candidate gets elected. I don't think you can do it on your own. This kind of shit has no place in a progressive discussion, but thanks for showing YOUR true colors.

Bake

[stillcool]

66. hey..you were the one that brought up..

'white bread'. I really don't get your 'outrage'. You would think the guy was molesting young boys. And by the way, my response was to your words, and had nothing to do with a candidate. Vote for whoever you want.

[Bake]

69. Nope. It wasn't me who tossed out "white bread."

It was one of yours. You can find it upthread; I'm too disgusted to do so. It appalls me that on a so-called progressive board, people feel free to toss out racially-charged terms like "white bread," when we "white bread" types aren't doing it.

Race is GOING to be the defining, DIVIDING issue of this campaign, and it's going to cost us the White House.

By the way, I'm the last person on earth who would defend a "Father" for molesting young boys. That doesn't mean that I'll stand idly by and let a "Father" get away with bullshit shenanigans that fall short of that level of heinousness. "Oh, well, at least he's not molesting young boys ..." THAT'S what YOU seem to be saying.

Oh wait, I forgot; we're not supposed to use the word "boy" either ...

Bake

[TexasObserver]

34. "Father" is what Catholics call him. That doesn't mean he's entitled to be called that.

Some of us believe it is silly to call a preacher "father," as if he has some special quality or status. He's a guy who wears his collar backwards and is affilated with the catholic church. He's no one's father.

[polmaven]

44. Well......

He's no one's father.....nowadays.....are you sure?

[rebel with a cause]

47. How do you know

he's no one's father? Just asking, because I know some Catolic priest that have children. Adoption makes this possible, you know.
Just saying...:shrug:

[JoFerret]

67. family values

.

[CaptJasHook]

33. Atheist side of my brain: I have no pity for people who sit in churches.

Mess with fire you can get burned.

Mess with religion can get mental.



I know that offends some people. But the truth hurts sometimes.

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Psst. UCC, not Unitarian.

Just a quibble.

[polmaven]

45. You know, it just occurred to me...

After the first Wright furor, and after Senator Obama publicly disagreed and did his speech about race, Wright went off the deep end and appeared to "get back" at Obama for that.

Now Trinity HAD to know what this priest is like, and they HAD to know they are being closely watched...do you think that Trinity's leaders deliberately set this up to "set up" Senator Obama?

Just a thought.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

53. He breathed

near a whorehouse once too.

And he walked near a lot of bars.

He is obviously drinking with hookers.

same old, same old.

[MethuenProgressive]

56. Why does Obama's church invite lunatics to preach from Pastor Wright's pulpit?

Why won't they stop? Don't they want Obama to win?

[madrchsod]

63. they have an email address

why do`t you ask them?

[2rth2pwr]

58. “I am proud of my church and am committed to the values of that church.”

I'm proud of that church. We've got a wonderful young pastor (Moss) who's there who's doing--continuing the terrific work that the church does. And that's my commitment. My commitments are to the values of that church,..." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24445166/page/2/

Here is Moss introducing Pfleger-

MOSS: We are delighted. He needs no introduction. He is a friend of Trinity, he is a brother beloved, he's a preacher par excellence, he is a prophetic, powerful pulpiteer, he is our friend, he is our brother, he is none other than Father Michael Pfleger! We welcome him once again.


And here is Moss after Fr Pfleger spoke his hateful words-

"We thank God for the message, we thank God for the messenger, and we thank God for Fr Pfleger..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H11x6bMu4Y

“It happens that there were major supporters in my district who had been supporters before they got member initiatives,” Obama said, noting that some of his contributors had been his allies for years.

One of those long-time supporters was Rev. Michael Pfleger, the politically active leader of St. Sabina Church. He gave Obama’s campaign $1,500 between 1995 and 2001, including $200 in April 2001, about three months after Obama announced $225,000 in grants to St. Sabina programs.

Pfleger said he made those donations personally, not on behalf of the church or to win grants.

“At a time when less people vote than ever, I don’t think pastors should be silent on politics,” Pfleger said.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-0705030035may03,0,7803217.story

[madrchsod]

62. what church do you go to?

maybe i will find something that your pastor said that i disagree with....

[2rth2pwr]

64. I'm not running for President on the basis of uniting the country and transcending divisions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

68. OMGZ Like, I'm So Surprised And Stuff! The Media Is Usually So Fair And Accurate About Stuff!

Boooo hoooo hooooo!!!!! Oh whyyyyyyy????? WHYYYYYYYYYY??????? WHYYYYYYYYY HAS THE GOOD MEDIA TURNED SO SUDDENLY BADDDDD??????? WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!