A side issue on all this: The excellent UCC is being trashed

[brentspeak]

I'm not a United Church of Christ member, but I do know from personal experience that it's an outstanding denomination, full of great people. The Rev. Wright and Father Pfleger media controversies (Father Pfleger is Catholic, but his Hillary speech took place at a UCC church) are giving the Sean Inanities and Rush Dimbulbs of the world the opportunity ridicule the UCC congregation -- and, by extension, all the other so-called "liberal" churches. Religious "warfare", if you will.

:banghead:

[billyoc]

1. I never heard of them, but I like them now from what I've heard during this campaign.

:shrug:

[anonymous171]

2. They had those really cool ads.

[ampad]

3. Isn't this what it really comes down to?

Hilly and her supporters think they are doing something great for her by bringing these non issues up but in reality they are helping the right wing trash a very important sector of Liberalism. The right wing needs the conservative churches to come out in the fall to put McCain over the top and it looks like those churches are not sweet on McCain. The UCC is a direct threat to all that is conservative because of their focus on social justice. The communities in which those churches call home benefit from all the congregation does for the community especially poor communities. Nothing would please the right wing more than to put a nail in liberal churches.

Listening to Randi Rhodes today she said Fox News did not cover the Scottie book yesterday but they did play the fathers comments in a loop over and over again. Now I ask, what is more important: the fact that the someone connected to the shrub administration comes out and admits they lied about everything under the sun including the Plame scandal; or this off the wall priest who made some funny (but true) statements about the Hilly? As you see the Hilly supporters think that Hilly's feelings are more important as they are parroting fox talking points and doing a great job of spreading the shit on DU.

The irony of it all is that the right wing spent the better part of the 90's destroying the Clintons and anything liberal. Now Hilly and her supporters are complacent in helping the right wing destroy everything liberal in hopes of her getting the nomination. Do they not think that had she won the nomination that the right wing wouldn't eat her alive? Do they think the right wing gives a rats ass about sexism? The right wing would re-write the book on sexism if she were to win just as they are re-writing the book on racism in regards to Obama.

I think the UCC will probably survive this as I think it will make them stronger. They will defend their congregation, those people are not stupid. They know exactly what is going on and they will not let those people who depend on their charity down. If it's one thing I learned about church growing up it is that when the church feels attack they only become stronger in their beliefs.

[papapi]

4. God is still speaking,

....the mantra for many of their congregations, but not all.

[smalll]

5. What people should remember is that UCC is CONGREGATIONALIST --

Just as the Mayflower people were. The Congregationalist Church used to be a very hard-core Calvinist outfit - that is no longer the case. But one of the things it still retains from its history is its lack of central authority: hence, the name. Each congregation runs its own show. There is no Congregationalist pope or bishops or synods or presbyters (council of elders.)

So there is no reason why one particular UCC church - Wright's church - can't be totally off-the-rails racist, but it means nothing about all the other UCC churches.

[amandabeech]

9. Yes, and the statements of Wright and Phleger (sp) will bring on the IRS,

if they already haven't.

Why Trinity would put its tax-exempt status in danger is beyond me.

I grew up United Methodist. The Bishop controls clerical assignments, but parishioners can force the Bishops hand. The pastor in my little church when I was a teenager got yanked and defrocked for believing that he had a direct line to God--very un-Methodist.

I think the Bishop that did that would have pulled Wright or the Father once he got wind of some of the sermons.

I don't think that the Congregational down the street would have renewed either of their contracts, either.

Frankly, the Wright sermons out there on the net have been a real eye-opener to this lapsed small town (bitter and clinging) Methodist.

But I'll pull the lever for Obama in November.

[madrchsod]

12. the chicago archdiocese has tried and tried to get rid of Phleger

and they can`t. his church serves the poorest of the poor in chicago and they move heaven and earth to make sure he stays. while others go through the motions the father puts himself on the line for his people.

as for wright...he is well respected in his church and the christan community. although some my disagree with some of what he says they do respect his commitment to his church and the larger christian community.

[amandabeech]

13. I understand that.

However, I don't think that the IRS cares whether or not the parishioners like their pastor.

Putting this on the tube will make it more difficult for the IRS, under any President, to ignore the situation.

I just hope that the tax folks go after nut jobs like Hagee, too, if he is advocating for a particular candidate or party from the pulpit.

[Critters2]

10. The UCC is a merger of four traditions. One of which was Congregationalist.

UCC polity is a mix of congregationalism and presbyterial polity, which we call covenantal. This means that we are connected with one another and responsible to one another as comrades and equals, but not with the hierarchical structure many churches have. What one does affects others, we are asked to remember.

I'm UCC, but I am not a Congregationalist.

[smalll]

14. Thanks for the expertise.

I didn't know the UCC was a congregational/presbyterian merger.

[Critters2]

15. Merged the Congregational Christian and

Evangelical and Reformed Churches. Each of these were merged denominations about 2 decades before the UCC formed. The E&R was a predominantly German ethnic church with a presbyterial form of polity. The UCC's polity is a blending of the two--clergy belong to both the judicatory and local church, but need judicatory standing to celebrate the sacraments and can be disciplined by the judicatory, local churches are members of the judicatory (called an Association) but also have functional autonomy, local churches own their own property.

We refer to this as "covenantal", neither fully presbyterial nor congregationalist. My own background is E&R, but I serve a CC church now.

[Nexus7]

6. I suppose the UCC is ENTITLED to be a hotbed of bombastic rhetoric?

A lot of people (think Blue Dog Dems, middle of the road folks) heard Pfleger's comments about entitlements, and guess what it reminded them of? What demographic has been accused of a sense of entitlement (think Reagan era).

Nice work, Pfleger.

[AllentownJake]

8. Jesus Christ

was a hotbead of bombastic rhetoric. If he wasn't the story would have ended a little differently. With the powers that be giving him a giant group hug. They didn't crucify him for minding his manners.

[AllentownJake]

7. Yep

Thanks Hillary for throwing the Red Letter Christians to the wolves. The conservative denominations hate UCC.

[davidpdx]

11. Brent you are absolutely correct

I have been a member of UCC in the past and they are a very wonderful organization of churches. In fact, the UCC is very liberal and accepts anyone regardless of race, sexual orientation, etc. The pastor of the church in Portland Oregon is a woman and her first name is Pat. She is a great person, very warm and willing to talk to you about your problems. Even though I had not attended, I chose to ask her to officiate at my wedding.

If anyone ever looking to join a church, look up the local UCC in your phone book.

[JoFerret]

16. Blame Obama for bringing the attention

and Trinity's choice of ranters for the notoriety.
(I do agree on the general point about "liberal" denominations.)

However, there are worse things in the world.
All this religiosity is creepy.

[barack the house]

17. It is very depressing to see what they are doing to these people...

Nonetheless they seem to be holding up well. Eventually folks will turne out from this kind of thing.