I'm not buying Dem Strat's "Judo" spin

[bushwakker]

I'm not questioning this person's bona fides. I have no doubt that he or she works for the Kerry camp and I appreciate this person's presence and insight.

That said, if Dem Strat thinks that the Kerry camp has gotten the best of the Swift Boat Liars in the last week then I have to question his/her judgment. Given AWOL's spotty record in the TANG, sactioning the SBL's to attack JK's exemplary service record was a big gamble for the White House. It could have backfired on the Bush campaign in a thousand ways - but it hasn't. You want proof? If this attack wasn't working the White House would be all over these bozos to shut it down. Rove would have pulled the plug on these scumbags in a minute if it were hurting Bush - but it ain't and so it continues. I lay part of the blame on the Kerry campaign (yes I realize the media environment is very bad).

Dem Strat says they knew it was coming? Well why then are Kerry campaign flacks sent out into the fray unprepared with the facts regarding John Kerry's testimony before the US Senate after his return from Vietnam (see DailyHowler on the hapless Kerry spinners)? I sit in amazement as I watch an AWOL little jerk and his cohorts cast aspersions on the service record of a war hero - and you call this a success? They have successfully injected their filth into the political bloodstream without an effective counter from the Kerry camp. Dem Strat posts as if the SBL's have been effectively disposed of and we can all now move on to more favorable turf. Two things. First to the extent that Mr O'Neill was discredited and ripped apart, it was done by Chris Matthews and James Carville - neither of whom is with the Kerry campaign (by the way Dem Strat, as anyone on this board can tell you, if you're counting on Chris Matthews to help you win this race it's gonna be a long fall). Secondly, the SBL's are not finished. They've had quite a time of it in the last ten days making the rounds on Hardball, Inside Politics, Scab-borough, Hannity etc etc - but now they'll move on to the smaller markets where the local Limbaugh wannabees will only be too happy to let them run wild and free. In fact, I heard O'Neill on local radio last night here in Boston.

I don't have any answers - but I'm not paid to have answers. Dem Strat and his colleagues are. I do know this - at some point John Kerry will have to answer these attacks on his character. This is an opportunity to be seized - not a test to be feared and I hope the campaign is thinking about a devastating response. Personally I think a little righteous (and justified) indignation from the candidate himself right now is overdue.

[molly]

1. The SBL have no credibility

where was * while Kerry was an open target. That "scratch" could very easily been a bullet in his head. Logically, they seem stupid and jealous.

on edit....I posted this yesterday

Two of the group are from Delaware - I'm so embarrassed!

2 Del. residents in ad attacking Kerry

http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2004/08...

snip...

"Elder retired from Christiana Bank two years ago and is setting up a new bank in Delaware called Delaware Sterling Bank. Elder said he did not have any first-hand knowledge of misstatements by Kerry about his service, improper actions in Vietnam or problems with the medals Kerry received. "I have knowledge in talking to boat captains that were there," he said.

Elder refused to identify his political party or say if he supports President Bush. "This has nothing to do with any partisan effort. This is a bunch of ex-military Navy men," he said. Elder said he and others remained silent for 35 years because Kerry previously had only sought "local" elected offices in Massachusetts. That changed when Kerry, a U.S. senator, decided to run for president, he said."

snip....

The Associated Press reported one of the largest donors to the group is Robert J. Perry, a Houston homebuilder who has donated to Bush's re-election campaign and gave $3.8 million to Texas Republicans in 2000.

[CarolynEC]

2. We, the believers, know they have no credibility...

... but do Joe and Jane Averagevoter know that? Do they really truly know that? Or is there room for the smear to fester in the minds of people who are not as informed as we political junkies are?

[molly]

7. How many times have you seen * defend his service

record?

[CarolynEC]

24. I'm not sure what you're asking

I haven't seen Bush defend himself on this nearly as often as I'd like. I haven't seen his lack of service really take hold as a part of public discourse in the way Kerry's record has been attacked.

And that fact is significant in itself. If Joe and Jane see one guy on the defensive and one guy sittin' pretty, I think they're going to develop suspicions about the former. "Must be a reason all these questions are being raised..."

[molly]

29. I have never seen * himself defend his service record

I have seen his staffers do it for him. Most in this country have already made up their minds who to vote for. All of these ads are aimed at the small percentage of "swing" voters - those who have enough intelligence to vote on FACTS. Think back to Clinton and everything they did and all the money they paid to trot people out. Guess who won.

[Hoping4Change]

33. And I say look what happeded to McCain who decided to

ignore the smear and take the high road. He was destroyed and he had a 19 point lead.

[bushwakker]

46. I don't think a lot of people even know about AWOL's service

record. You'd be amazed at the stuff that you and I know about that most of our fellow citizens are ignorant of. That's why F9/11 was such a phenomenon. Lots of folks were exposed to this info for the first time and it blew their minds. For instance I told some people about Laura Bush's teenage vehicular homicide and they thought I was just spreading lies about her. When I brought in articles detailing the incident they were like "why haven't i heard this?"

[CarolynEC]

47. I understand now

... and I agree, it doesn't necessarily have to be JK himself speaking out. I hope I didn't seem to be implying that.

As for swing voters, intelligence and facts -- that's the part that worries me. If they're developing all sorts of negative impressions on an emotional or subconscious level, then it's that much harder to get them to accept facts at a conscious, intellectual level.

And as Clinton has himself said, he took every attack as an opportunity to grab the mircrophone and get his message out. I'm not sure JK has done enough of that... YET.

I would like to have seen more hard-hitting surrogates out there right along, but I'm also very hopeful JK will be ramping it up steadily after RNC, after people have returned from summer break mode, etc. He has wowed some big crowds in every city he's visited -- the next step, in my mind, is to pull all that support together on a national level.

[bushwakker]

50. Clinton and Carville never let a smear go unanswered

those guys fought for every inch in 1992.

[Cha]

109. And they had more to defend with Clinton's

many girlfriends.

[brentspeak]

11. Yes, you have put your finger on the problem

It doesn't help Kerry's campaign if just the committed Democrat niche can see through Bush's smears and lies; what's paramount is that middle America can. Otherwise, Bush wins.

[OneBlueSky]

6. they may have no credibility, but for the past week . . .

this issue has driven the campaign agenda . . . it's been covered more extensively than any other issue on network news, cable news, and in newspapers . . . the news cycle is measured in 24-hour increments, and the swift boaters have dominated the past seven to ten cycles . . . whether their charges are true or not is almost beside the point if they're getting all this coverage . . . another example of BushCo setting the agenda and putting Kerry on the defensive . . .

it's about time for Kerry to reverse the process and put Bush on the defensive, and big time . . . pick an issue, any issue . . .

http://www.thousandreasons.org/listB.html

[Gloria]

37. Weeks before the Convention, I saw Tony Coehlo and Buchanan

on a talk show....and Coehlo said something that has stuck in my mind...

That while Kerry is a good "closer" this year he's going to have to go on the attack EARLIER than the usual post-Labor Day sort of scenario. And I read another thing that echoed that thinking.

And I agree. You can't sit back, it's happening now and erosion starts slowly, but bubbles along. PLUS....the GOP attacks are the kind that will be kicked back up to high speed when least expected. The fact that Swift Boat guys have raised enough money and are producing another series of ads illustrates the point. This is the GOP trying to tear down Kerry's character, just like they did with Gore. Now, Parker is spewing about Cambodia....it just piles on.

Where is the Kerry pile on? Where is the DNC?? (PS--thanks for giving us a 4 week disadvantage in fundraising with the way you allowed the Convention schedule to benefit the Repugs...)

[Kahuna]

114. I agree. I think the time to start hitting bush hard is right now...

Bush and cheney are getting more outrageous with their asinine accusations. I saw them get cocky with Gore while Gore kept the high road. What good did keeping the high road do Gore with this bunch. These guys are relentless. They are desperate. Kerry needs to put them on the offensive. He has plenty of ammunition. What is he waiting for to use it? :shrug:

[Hoping4Change]

3. Former Dem strategist agrues your point in the Guardian

Philip James argues the Kerry has to aggressively fight back against negative ads and that the present response fails on all counts.


"Two cardinal laws govern negative advertisements. One: they work. Two: the way to combat them is to answer fire with fire. The John Kerry campaign seems to be overlooking both at their peril.
When an attack ad from the Republican slime brigade Swiftboat Veterans for Truth - which claimed that Kerry's Vietnam heroism was a fraud - surfaced last week, the initial response of the Kerry campaign team was to ignore it.


snip


So the initial decision not to respond was plain wrong. Now that Kerry has woken up to the potential damage of this smear campaign, his response so far - to use free news media - has been inadequate and, to some extent, self-defeating.


The news media inevitably frames allegations, irrespective of their merit, in the terms of a legitimate debate...So baseless charges get elevated to a level allowing the viewer to make his or her own judgement."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,,1282583,00.html



edit: Entered new URL as the other link did not work.

[bushwakker]

8. James Carville is right

Address every attack and then counter attack. I think people are fooling themselves if they say this stuff isn't hurting Kerry. the campaign's response has been so feeble that now onlt the candidate can effectively "blow it out of the water" so to speak.

[bigtree]

21. Carville also follwed the edict to stay on message, don't be diverted

"It's the economy stupid!"

Here's the advice of his boss, who won two terms through the most withering attacks in political history:

Bill Clinton, who is probably the best political strategist in the Democratic Party, tells friends that John Kerry should set two goals for his acceptance speech tonight — more clearly explain who is really is and give more detail on exactly how his policies would differ from George W. Bush's. The former president thinks the campaign so far has been too general and based mostly on rhetoric, his confidants tell U.S. News and the Bulletin. He tells friends that Americans don't have enough information about Kerry — an assessment which is backed by recent polls. But he adds that just presenting a compelling biography won't be enough, that Kerry needs to spell out with much more clarity how his views on education, tax cuts, the environment, law enforcement, health care, fighting terrorism, winning the war in Iraq, and other issues offer voters a very stark choice in November. Clinton warns that if Kerry doesn't start clarifying those differences, Bush will set a fall agenda based on creating fear that Kerry is too weak to be commander in chief.

Clinton's advice, which has been passed on to Kerry through intermediaries: Don't get diverted by what's in the news media each day; just set your plan and stick to it. An added cautionary note is that Clinton believes Bush can be a very effective campaigner, and he isn't sure Democrats take candidate Bush as seriously as he deserves.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/archive/bull040729n.htm

[Hoping4Change]

30. James makes the point that McCain's decision not to strike

back aggressively when smeared sunk him despite the 19 point lead.


BTW I notced that the link to the article didn't work so I changed it.

[henslee]

31. I want a Bush AWOL ad nOw!!@!!!!!

[bigtree]

54. Got a couple of mil?

The ad drive is on hold until after the republican convention because of campaign law. Remember the debate over delaying the acceptance of the nomination so that we could keep spending because the republicans had put off their convention for an extra month?

[henslee]

74. grrrr..... .................................................eom

[bushwakker]

79. The SBL's had about $100,000

and ran the ad sporadically. Then the DC pundits picked it up and ran with it. They were counting on free media and they got if. An indy group could run an AWOL ad and it would not come out of JK war chest.

[bigtree]

80. Are you familiar with the restrictions on spending that the Kerry campaign

are under until after the republican convention? Kerry must stop spending privately raised money and use public funds. He wants to save the bulk of his funds for after the republican covention, not spend now and be at a disadvantage later.

[bushwakker]

83. The SBL's are an independent (527) group

Their actions are not being funded by B/C 2004. they can spend as much as they want. I read and heard that after producing the ad they actually had very little money to pay for running it. It ran a few times until the DC pundits started talking about it and playing for free (over and over) on CNN and Fox an MSNBC. That's how that game works. LBJ's "Daisy" ad in 1964 only ran once but people have been talking about it for 40 years. An indy group could run an anti-Bush ad right now and it would have nothing to do with JK's war chest. From what I've heard there re JK friendly groups with lots of $$$ around this year.

[Kahuna]

115. Forget "awol." That's a dead horse. How about some ads pointing out..

the differences between what bush says, what he says he does and what he actually does. That's where you hit him where it hurts. People think he's a straight shooter and decisive. We have more than enough ammunition on this guy to last until the election. It's time to start using it now.

[henslee]

124. AWOL might seem like old news/boring/deadhorse here at DU but there are

many who have never heard of it due to mainstream media filters. (Hard to believe, huh) To them it would still be fresh.

[Cha]

110. This is what I'm talkin' about!

[madrchsod]

4. one thing that i noticed

about the attack was that it seemed to be focused on the purple hearts..easier to attack Kerry on this instead of his SLIVER STAR?.then the recent release of zumalt saying he would have given Kerry the NAVY CROSS instead of the bronze because he needed to -boast moral- among those poor bastards in those boats. but somehow the democrats have let the thugs off the hook when it comes to their WAR COWARD...oh well,it`s like screaming in a tornado

[Blue_Roses]

5. Clinton said on the Daily Show

that these guys will keep doing this until we respond to them in a way that shuts them up. (paraphrasing here) They did it to McCain ( and why McCain can hug and support Bush now is beyond the pale :eyes:) and Max Cleland. I did a search at newsmeat.com of the their contributions and 98% of them are to republican candidates or campaigns. It's not hard to see who they are working for, especially, John O'Neill. It was was laughable that when he siad he voted for Gore on Hardball the other night. I thought I saw his nose grow 2 inches.

That said, I think alot of us are anxious about these ads and would like to see more from Kerry regarding a response, however, Kerry can't go around defending EVERYTHING Bush says 'cause that would be playing into Bush's court. Kerry can't let Bush define his campaign.

[bushwakker]

9. Bill Clinton knows what he is talking about

He was attacked all the time from every angle and he survived and prospered. The Kerry camp is off course and needs to toughen up. Still lots of time to do it.

[bigtree]

40. Clinton's advice

which has been passed on to Kerry through intermediaries: Don't get diverted by what's in the news media each day; just set your plan and stick to it.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/bulletin/archive/bull040729n.htm

The problem with the grousers on this board is that they put almost no value on sticking to the message and not getting diverted. The positive message, in the end will draw more votes than the negative attacks which tend to depress participation.

[Kahuna]

116. The message isn't getting through the lies and attacks. THAT's the problem

Al Gore stayed on message and ignored the attacks and the media and he lost (io a manner of speacking). Those guys need a dose of their own medicine. And they need it now. BEFORE their convention. Let's give them a little pre convention surprise.

[bushwakker]

10. This particular smear goes to the heart of this man's life and

chracter. Kerry has to respond to it and he will.

[brentspeak]

15. Well he better do it quick

Because Rove is working doubletime to make Americans doubt Kerry's most demonstrable crendentials.

[bushwakker]

19. that's what my post is all about

you see I think that if the Kerry camp were better prepared and had more passionate and knowlegable spokesmen Kerry wouldn't need to personally address the issue. However because they have failed, now only the candidate himself can put the Genie back in the bottle. Kerry deserves better - we deserve better.

[elehhhhna]

12. DemStrat: the DNC is preaching to the choir. Joe Sixpack isn't hearing you

and your/our? message.

They need to be hit hard and publicly, gloves off, call a liar a liar, and keep pounding on the NERVE of an AWOL WAR-PEACE president to sanction outright lies.

You don't fight a howitzer with a subtly crafted Judo move. That's how you lost it last time. Convential warfare doesn't work against guerilla warfare, Rumsfeld.

[bushwakker]

17. I found the "Judo" post disconcerting

again appreciate this person's willingness to share with us and listen - but the idea that the SBL's attack has been effectively parried is luidicrous. It scares me to think that this kind of mindset is in control at Kerry HQ.

[Kahuna]

117. Amen. You said a mouthful.

nt

[bigtree]

58. Joe six-pack wants to hear how we plan to get manufacturing jobs back

J6p wants to hear how we can make health insurance affordable and available. J6p wants to hear how we can help ensure that his kids have a quality education and the opportunity to go to college.

[WI_DEM]

13. Perhaps the democrats should give Rove/Bush a veiled threat

that the BS regarding JK's war service better stop or else all's fair in love, war and politics--Chimpy's own wartime "service" will become a full fledged issue and we don't need to construct lies to go after this guy--his AWOL status speaks for itself.

[bushwakker]

16. They should have already been prepared to use AWOL's

desertion as an issue. We can't be fight by Marques of Queensbury rules while the other guys are using brass knuckles. They should already have a GW Bush TANG attack strategy in the can and ready to go.

[Cha]

111. Agreed!

[JPJones]

14. SBVFB are debunked in Boston, NYC and DC

but are getting a lot of play in the swing states.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Reelection Campaigns Are Referendums On The Incumbent

This election will largely turn on folks perception of the so called war on terror which includes the invasion of Iraq and the economy..


All the spin of Karl Rove will make little difference in the final analysis....

[JPJones]

22. Yes, and Iowa doesn't determine the nominee

Pearls of conventional wisdom don't necessarily reflect realities on the ground.

[bushwakker]

23. Election 2000 proves you are wrong

8 years of peace and prosperity flushed down the toilet by a media intent on on trashing Al Gore as a phony and a liar. By any measure W is a failure but he is still the favorite to be re-elected because of the media environment. The only thing propping him up is the GOP Noise Machine - but it is a powerful machine. The old rules are out the window. The Dems need to get in the ballgame as far as the spin cycle goes. I predict the Kerry campaign is gonna have some new faces soon.

[bigtree]

27. Gore won that election

It was stolen by the republican appointed Supreme Court.

[bushwakker]

34. It would have been un-stealable had the Beltway press corps

not decided to do all they could to prop up AWOL.

[Cha]

112. They sure as hell went out of their way!

I was naively reading the media then and could not believe my eyes.

Damn them to hell.

[JPJones]

39. He needed to beat the bumbling governor

by a wide enough margin that the SC wouldn't matter. Kerry needs to do the same thing. "Gore is crazy, he thinks he invented the internet" is something I heard a lot in the run-up to the election in 2000.

'Gore won in 2000', whatever gets you through the night.

[bigtree]

60. Gore was hobbled by the voter's belief that anyone could manage

a strong economy and keep us out of war.

Voters have no such illusions this go round.

[bushwakker]

77. No Gore was hobbled by a Beltway press corps that openly

supported his opponent. Why the Kerry camp and Dem Strat now seem shocked that the DC pundits are pulling the same crap is baffling to me. The national GOP controls the Beltway debate plain and simple. This has been known to anyone with half a brain for some time now. The JK camp needs to figure out a way to deal with it beyond asking me to send an email to Howard Fineman.

[bigtree]

81. Well, they are dealing with it

Sorry you won't accept the reams of evidence that I have provided to determine that, including the bulk of polling that shows Kerry improving or maintaining his lead in key areas. This is truly a sky-is-falling mentality that is not supported by pointing to the drivel that is coming from the desperate bush cabal.

[bushwakker]

86. I'm just responding to Dem Strat's posts

I'm not sure if "WE" can do anything about the media situation which seems to be what Dem Strat is asking. The sky is not falling and state polls are indicating there was a JK convention bump - you are correct.

[bigtree]

88. With that encouraging note from compatriot Bushwakker

I go to my rest for my nite-work. Good opportunity for discussion. Thanks.

[bushwakker]

91. OK see you down the road

[Kahuna]

120. Right. Dem Strategist comes here to tell us about the media..

like it's news to us!!!! And asking us to keep contacting the media when we have been doing that relentlessly for four long years. Get it Dem Strategist. No matter how many letters and emails we send to CNN and the rest, they don't care. Read my lips. They don't care. They have proven to us emailers and letter writers time and time again they don't care what we think. They have an agenda and they are sticking to their script. So if Dem Strategist is counting on our letter writing, which we will of course continue to do, to change how the media covers and reports our campaign, then, boy oh boy, are in we in big trouble. Because nothing we can do now that we haven't been doing over the past four years is going to change what they're doing. And, Dem Strategist should know that already. And if you don't, you know it now. So please come up with another strategy.

[Kahuna]

119. True but * shouldn't have gotten close enough to take it. And we

don't want an election close enough for * to take it this time.

[sundancekid]

64. yes, but we also need to say: Bush allows character assassination BUT runs

AWAY from his record... runs away from his record ... runs away from his record (that's the core argument for someone seeking re-selection -- what have you done for me? why should I vote for YOU?)

[Kahuna]

118. They are. But, Bush is using, 'the devil you know strategy..' He knows

he has nothing positive to run on. So he's going to bloody Kerry up and cast so many doubts on him until the voters will hold their breaths and vote for the devil they know.

[Gloria]

20. And, now we see Kathleen Parker crucifying Kerry on Cambodia...

in our local Gannett rag...This is a bitter pill for me to swallow, after a week of crap here in Southern NM about BRAC and editorial slams about Kerry's IWR, $87 billion votes, with NO RESPONSE from our campaign.

I am totally disgusted. Is Cambodia the next "talking point"???

Frankly, Kerry should not be in FL, he should be out here in Southern NM cleaning up the mess....


As far as the Swift Boat guys...well, they've raised enough money to be planning ANOTHER round of ads....so, they plan to stick around until the bitter end.....wake up, Kerry campaign.
And, they should pull Clark from that WesPac stuff in places like Alaska and get him out there as the spokesperson on this stuff. Edwards can go back to wherever as far as I'm concerned. Clinton was right...it's all about national security, with the GOP twist of undoing the Dem Convention where Kerry came out being viewed as a credible leader. They will discredit him for the next 3 weeks, deliver the big punch at the Convention, and then our advantage will be gone. And then, a well poised
alert/attack/ whatever and a few rigged machines......and it's over...]


PS..if these strategists are anything like the Senate crew....saying they'll vote for Goss, but will bring out why they don't like him....how half ass backwards is that?? Whose going to listen now that you've said you're voting for him???? Where's YOUR crediblity???

[bushwakker]

25. I predict there will be some changes a Kerry HQ

first of all they are not in a bad position, but they'ver lost momentum. I think you will see some new "old" faces out there spinning for Kerry quite soon.

[Neshanic]

36. Exactly! Now they are deconstructing it into a myriad of attacks.

Tweety on a his one pointed smack-down of the SBC issue is not going to pull it off. They go for the big main propoganda points and when confronted, parse it into more smaller attacks. Then the field is full of what was already proven untrue, what is on the plate of what needs to be proven as lies.

Then the "Joe sixpack" is confused. Confused=Chimpy.

[bigtree]

51. Joe six-pack is likely out of work and looking for some leadership

on the economy.

[Neshanic]

52. No, Joe Sixpack needs to know the awfull Chimpy truth first.

[Blue_Roses]

26. what do you think would be the best way for Kerry to handle this?

seriously.

[NewJeffCT]

28. well, if they knew it was coming

1) Take some of the info out there from Center for American Progress & Media Matters, as well as that Riposte website and get somebody to summarize it correctly and then fax it all out to the major media outlets.

2) Get some strong, articulate spokespeople out there - Wes Clark & Max Cleland for starters.

This is turning into Kerry's Willie Horton, I'm afraid. Dukakis didn't rebut that in time, either, and the charge stuck even though Bush had supported the parole program and a parolee had had a similar incident on Bush's watch (if I recall) - the Dukakis campaign got that out there WAY WAY too late.

[bigtree]

35. They are defending out there, You seem to be more focused on the Bushlies

Veterans with Bush Truth Squad blast attacks on Kerry's war record

By Bret Hayworth, Journal staff writer

>>>>>

Members of the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth group did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam, but question the particulars by which Kerry earned several military awards. Gil Zemansky, former senior adviser to the Vietnamese River Patrol Division in the early 1970s, called on the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth to stop a "smear campaign" that is politically based. Zemansky said he agreed with the remarks last week of Republican U.S. Sen. John McCain, a Vietnam veteran, who called ads criticizing Kerry's Vietnam service as "dishonest and dishonorable."

Zemansky said the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth comprises Republican-connected persons, including John O'Neill, whose activities the president should condemn. "It goes beyond criticism, it is smearing," Zemansky said. Sioux City veterans Gene Ebner and Bob Miller said the Bush campaign is using low tactics by not disassociating from the swiftboat group.

State Rep. Roger Wendt of Sioux City said there were lots of ways of getting out of Vietnam War service, including fleeing to Canada, getting a college deferment or serving in the National Guard. Yet Kerry volunteered and found himself part of some "of the most dangerous assignments" in Vietnam, Wendt said.

Zemansky said Bush "didn't keep his commitment to the country when it was his turn to serve" (in the National Guard) and questioned Bush administration officials Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz leading the war effort after never serving in the military themselves.

More: http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2004/08/14/news/local/bb9af540e11a3bed86256ef00018a9bf.txt


From Will Pitt: YOU WANT INSTANT REACTION FROM KERRY? Feast.

August 12, 2004
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=167-08122004

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Ten senior military officials released the following statement today in response to the Vice President's attacks on John Kerry today:

"We are deeply disappointed by the tone and tenor of President Bush and Vice President Cheney's personal attacks on John Kerry, a decorated combat veteran who served his country with courage and honor. John Kerry is talking about his plan to address the most pressing issues facing our nation -- jobs, the economy, health care, the war on terror, the war in Iraq. George Bush and Dick Cheney have chosen take their campaign to the gutter. We call on President Bush and Vice President Cheney to stop the irresponsible personal attacks and tell us where they want to take the country. Tell us how they plan to win the peace in Iraq. Tell us how they plan to get us back on track with the war on terror. Tell us where they plan to lead the country. The American people and our troops deserve better."

Signed by:

Admiral William J. Crowe (United States Navy, Retired)
Admiral Stansfield Turner (United States Navy, Retired)
General Wesley K. Clark (United States Army, Retired)
General Merrill "Tony" A. McPeak (United States Air Force, Retired)
General Joseph Hoar (United States Marine Corps, Retired)
General Johnnie E. Wilson (United States Army, Retired)
Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (United States Navy, Retired)
Lieutenant General Claudia J. Kennedy (United States Army, Retired)
Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick (United States Army, Retired)
Lieutenant General Edward D. Baca
http://www.usnewswire.com/

[bushwakker]

38. They knew it was coming and still failed to counter-attack

that's what bothers me the most.

[Democat]

76. They only had 30 years to prepare, yet no counter attack

:(

[bigtree]

78. No counterattack?

Have you actually looked for one? Or are you relying on the network media to produce one for you?

[Democat]

82. People do not go "looking" for counter attacks

Are you asking if I checked for a press release to see if there was a counter attack to a nation wide advertising campaign?

We are in a battle here, the other side should not have to go looking for your counter attack. It has to come to them. :)

Come on, if the "network media" didn't show the counter attack, then there was no effective counter attack.

That's the way it works.

[bigtree]

89. local media is carrying the Kerry economic message wherever he travels

in the key states. Much more effective than network news.

[bushwakker]

32. I think he now needs to personally address these questions

I know alot of folks here say he should not dignify it - but since his campaign has been unable to adequately joust with the RWers - he needs to do it himself. As I said, this is an opportunity - not something to be feared. At the same time he defends himself they must find a way to get the media on the trail of AWOL's missing years in Alabama and his boast in campaign literature that he served in the Air Force. Some say this is just wallowing in the mud - but it has to be done. This attack on his Vietnam record has just been allowed to go too far.

[Blue_Roses]

42. My response:

Have Kerry and O'Neill debate---AGAIN--30 years later! Now that would be awesome. Call O'Neill out on these comments and lies. Kerry could address it as: "O'Neill, if my record disturbs you so much, let's discuss it." Talk about a wipe out. I know this is being funded by Bob Perry, a republican in Texas, but still, he's using O'Neill to do the dirty work--not that O'Neill isn't ready to please the repubs. He was so eager to please Nixon, so what's changed? Obviously nothing.

I too, hate the sitting back and not doing anything, if for the simple fact it PISSES ME OFF. I believe there is a time and place for a serious repsonse and it's fast approaching. I can't stand to hear the question mark in some of the swing voters I've talked to about this. Some of them are actually questioning Kerry's record because of this ad.

[bigtree]

48. This would assume that Kerry is doing nothing

I'm not convinced that you have bothered to actually look to see what his campaign and his surrogates have done. The swiftliars have been mostly discredited and this is as known as their lies despite the view that the lies have carried more weight. I'm not impressed by the latest round of attacks. They were weak and easily refutable (and refuted) and drew attention again to Bush's absense from duty and Cheney's refusal to serve.

[bushwakker]

56. Maybe I overestimate the effectiveness of the attack

by the SBL's and the response by the Kerry team. It does seem that this issue has been the dominating factor for about ten days. I knew it was coming but I figured it as a two day story and didn't anticipate the sustained nature of it. In my opinion nothing exists in a vacuum. Either the SBL's are hurting Kerry or they're helping him. I think the former is true right now.

[bushwakker]

59. bigtree what was your response to dem strat's "judo" post?

he seemed quite satisfied with the camapaign's response - obviously i am not. i think there's gonna be some changes and i think you my see jk addressing this thing himself this week?

[bigtree]

62. Attack politics can cut both ways

After a while the attacker begins to take on more negatives than support. Those 'swing votes that we are pulling for are not going to be swayed by the nonsense on the edges and more likely will be turned off by a candidate who is seen to be spending too much time on the nonsense and not enough time on their needs and concerns. They could very well sit out the vote, or worse, turn away from Kerry, who is largely unknown, IF he is seen spending more time on this than on the issues.

DS is correct in that the attacks seem to have imploded and in fact drawn the Bush team off of any positive message that would sway an undecided voter to support them. On the other hand, Kerry is focusing on the economy, which, in places like Ohio, is the main concern.

Here's an interesting blip:

By TOM TROY
TOLEDO BLADE STAFF WRITER
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040814/NEWS09/408140327/-1/NEWS

Standing on the east bank of the Maumee River yesterday, the mayors of four large Ohio cities called on Democratic U.S. Sen. John Kerry and Republican President Bush to say what they would do to rebuild America's cities.

>>>>>

Mr. Plusquellic, president of the conference, chided the assembled media, suggesting they were letting the presidential candidates get away with debating frivolous topics, such as hairstyles and neckties.

"When they start debating, we hope they're not talking about Iraq and Purple Hearts and what you did in the National Guard, but about cities," Mr. Plusquellic said.

He said that Mr. Kerry and Mr. Bush should address housing, cleaning up former industrial sites, and paying for public safety and homeland security.

This is an appeal that will resonate with voters in this swing state. Bush will lose this tussle because he fails to address their concerns and will lose their attention because he has been diverted from his 'turning the corner' (Kerry says in circles) message.

Kerry on the other hand is in a position to say, as Clinton repeatedly did, "I am talking about issues that affect you." That will win the election no matter what personal matters they might be uncomfortable with.

What is Judo?

Judo means "gentle way". This does not imply that strength is not used in Judo; instead "gentle way" means that the strength of an opponent should not be resisted. Rather, the opponents strength and force should be combined with the competitors own strength and force to be used against the opponent.
http://www.westga.edu/~judo/misc/judo.html

The main principles of Judo are "Maximum Efficiency" and "Mutual Welfare and Benefit." The goal of maximum efficiency teaches the judoka to use the least amount of physical strength necessary to throw an opponent.
http://www.nd.edu/~judo/whatisjudo.htm

The most important idea in judo is JU, which, loosely translated, means "flexibility". Students must learn the right time to yield and the right time to stand firm as they work toward getting their opponents off balance.
http://www.amerikanjudo.org/whatjudo.html

By redirecting your opponent’s balance and movements you may overcome adversaries regardless of the differential in size or strength.
http://www.hawaiijudo.org/what_is_judo.htm

Judo rarely practices striking attacks as many other martial styles. Instead, it focuses on using an opponents own energy to defeat them using a variety of other techniques
http://www.missoulajudo.com/what-is-judo.htm

[union_maid]

49. Kerry should never stoop to debating O'Neill

Kerry is the Democratic candidate. The only person he should be debating is Bush. Everyone's got to stop going into panic mode at every single thing that happens.

[CarolynEC]

57. Totally agree re debating O'Neill. Never! (eom)

[Kahuna]

121. Agree. They debated long ago and Kerry beat him like a rented mule..

That's why O'Neill is still holding a grudge.

[Gloria]

44. He should introduce a dig at Bush or these guys in his stump speeches...

twist the knife, like he did with "turn the corner" which was quite effective.
If he had done that earlier, he would be in better shape.

Look, we've got Swift boats/Cambodia; $87 billion vote; IWR vote being messed with.
Surely, there is a way to dispense with these by going on OFFENSE against Bush! IE, "Bush threatened to veto the $87 billion, because of military benefits..that's the one I wanted. The next time it came up, the bill had a enough votes, so I registered a PROTEST VOTE against the unnaccounted for money in the bill...and see, now, we have Halliburton robbing taxpayers...

Jeez, twist the knife into Bush on these things, don't just defend...

[Kahuna]

122. Riiiight. He needs to hit the little weasel hard, where it hurts.

nt

[Hoping4Change]

41. Former dem stragetist says to fight back with ads in the same market.

"The only way to fight such slurs is by hitting back with paid media in the same markets in which the original appeared - in this case the battleground states of Wisconsin, Ohio and West Virginia, where only a few changed minds could make the difference between defeat and victory.

Such an ad could be produced in an afternoon. It would feature Jim Rassmann, talking straight to camera, mixed with images of him with Kerry in Vietnam, and it would say something like this:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/comment/story/0,,1282583,00.html

[bigtree]

43. Money for ads is scarce until after the convention because of campaign law

and the fact that the republicans delayed their convention a month. Remember the debate over whether Kerry should delay his acceptance of the nomination in order to be able to keep spending?

[Hoping4Change]

53. But the very same smear sank McCain who didn't fight back

at what seemed an outlandish smear. I think it'd be foolhardy not to divert funds into a forceful rebuttal.

[bigtree]

66. Foolhardy would be to be seen by the bush camp as gullible and scared

enough to spend millions of dollars, which could be used to present Kerry's positive vision, everytime the Bushies lie or throw mud. This is a tactic to divert Kerry and draw him away from his winning economic message. Bravo to Kerry for setting the right balance. These recent attacks were weak and only served to draw attention to bush's own absence from duty and cheney's refusal to serve. Also, the discrediting of the swiftliars will have an effect on the future believability of the Bush attacks to come.

Kerry, on the other hand is securely on message.

[Hoping4Change]

70. How rhen do you explain what happened to MCCain?

[bigtree]

73. This is a national election, fought region by region. This attack by Bush

is not leading local coverage (or the voter's concerns) where we need the votes.

Here's a story about this week's efforts:

Saturation coverage greets Kerry's tour through 82 small media markets

By Thomas Fitzgerald
Knight Ridder Newspapers
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9395057.htm

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - The Arizona Daily Sun characterized John Kerry's Sunday night rally in Heritage Square as "practically the second coming" and devoted its entire Monday front page to the blessed event.

You can't buy that kind of publicity. And that, in large measure, was the point of the Democratic presidential nominee's 4,971-mile trip from Boston to Oregon by bus and train, which ended on Friday.

>>>>

Both sides know that a 2002 Pew Research Center survey found that 35 percent of voters get their election news from local television and 33 percent from local newspapers. Other research indicates that swing voters rely even more heavily on local outlets for their news.

Kerry's campaign invited 63 local reporters aboard its train and buses for jaunts and granted 69 interviews with the candidate or his running mate, Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina, to local TV and newspaper correspondents.


Why should Kerry divert from his economic message and step on his own coverage? Just because the Bushies pout and posture? I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks of bush's absense from duty and cheney's refusal to serve whenever they focus on Kerry's service.

McCain was engaged in a primary fight among republicans. I won't vouch for their thought process.

[wyldwolf]

45. Swift Boat Liars have no credibility

Being that only 7-10% of voters are undecided as to who they will vote for in NOV, and being that only the extreme RW media are saying the Swift Boat Liars are credible, I don't see how they can possibly have swayed anyone.

Tweety ripped O'Neill to shreds.
Even O'Reilly says the benefit of the doubt goes to Kerry.

The Swift Boat Liars' claims have been refuted. Only the most partial partisan want them to be true - and it is all wishful thinking.

[Neshanic]

55. Strange, I live in AZ and the newspaper says nothing...

about anything being debunked, and my WAR HERO senator is in pictures all over, clinging to Bush. Literally.

Tweety was off his meds. It will not be happening again, and when the RNC is on, we better be wearing hats, because the crap will be raining down.

[wyldwolf]

61. Strange then that your WAR HERO senator has refuted the claims

Since you have seen the future concerning Tweety, peer into you magic ball again and tell me the winning lottery numbers.

[Neshanic]

65. OK I'll play. Re-invigorated, new man, not the same Bush...

"I was shocked and suprised at how good he was." "He hit one out of the park". "Kerry's was speech was Gore-like"... make your own game, or play with friends, and then under-estimate the Chimp amd his crew again, after his speech at the RNC, and the subsequent fawning over over by the pliant corporate media, complete with stuttering replies by our guys that agonize over every word to attack back.

As far as the lottery, play your birth day numbers.

[wyldwolf]

68. .

[wyldwolf]

69. to play, first you have to know the game

Your last post had absolutely nothing to do with the prior posts of ours.

Nothing to do with the Swift vote vets, nothing to do with the fact that the media has not embraced the story.

Nothing to do with the fact that Matthews and O'Reilly have both rejected the story. Nothing to do with the fact that McCain has refuted the story.

In fact, you went off on some wild tangent that is certainly worthy of it's own thread but was completely unrelated to the Swift boat liars theme of our discussion.

[Neshanic]

71. They have not embraced the story? I guess they will just stop then.

I am glad that you can see into the future and know that this is a non-issue. I suppose the Cambodia thing will just melt away too?

[wyldwolf]

72. Again, you are avoiding the issues raised

No, the media has not embraced the story. They have reported that it has happenned but have not embraced it. Just as I heard two RW radio hosts whine last week, the media seems more concerned with disproving it and calling O'Neill and his buddies' credibility into question than reporting the story as fact.

The media embraced the Clinton/Lewinsky story.

I am glad that you can see into the future and know that this is a non-issue.

Not only did I NOT claim it was a non-issue, but you're method of presenting your misinterpretation there wasn't very original.

And the Cambodia thing has melted away...

Not on CNN. Not on FOX. Not on MSNBC. Not on ABC, CBS, NBC.

On Drudge, though.

[Neshanic]

93. Melting away. Ok, we will see. Everything fine.

[wyldwolf]

94. I hope your wish doesn't come true

[Gloria]

95. Er, Cambodia alive and well in Kathleen Parker's column (excerpts)

in my local Gannett rag this morning.....distributed all over by Tribune News out of Chicago...

Using "Gore terminolgy, too. Turns admirable qualities into negatives. Name calls. Andrea Mitchell commented during the Convention that 8mm cameras were frequently brought by soldiers to VietNam and remembered how everyone had them at home. However, Parker turns it into a character flaw....Sounds all too familiar...the politics of personal destruction is in full swing....

"If Kerry didn't fabricate, he exaggerated. Or misspoke. Or got confused. Or something. But whatever the differences among versions, the story is part of a larger narrative that may matter more than the details.

It is the story of naked ambition and grandiosity, the narrative of a self-absorbed man who always needed to be the best and first, whether captain of the boat in Vietnam or winner of the debate in school....

He's the sort of man who thinks to take a movie camera to war to document himself for uses now known to be political; who willingly exploits his heroism in ways real heroes never do; who builds a career on disgust towad a war he later characterizes as the crowning achievement in a life that seems more risumi than real..."

HAD ENOUGH??????????

PS--These people turned Max Cleland into a "traitor." Let alone what they did to McCain. They have a successful track record of tearing down vets. What makes anyone think they can't succeed again??

[Neshanic]

96. Gloria, we are the Chicken Littles, the "Who are these people?"

We are accused of being young, stupid, bored, no social life, whose only function is to crash the party where the tables are already being set. Also we are the "wish we would go aways" because we bring up some things that are genuine sources of concern. Just like when the Republicans say that you are unpatriotic for questioning.

Tweety handed the Swift Boat creep his ass. All done! have you not heard?

[wyldwolf]

98. All things you just said aside, you do have a persecution complex

No one has said or implied that they wish you'd go away. But typically, some of you have major problems when someone disagrees with you. Then it becomes "oh, you want me to go away! Oh, you think I'm crashing the party!"

:nopity:

[Neshanic]

103. Thanks but try not to be a shrink. Even if you did stay at Holiday Inn

"I took a long hiatus from this place because of too many morons, and too much work. Now I'm considering taking another one, but just because of the morons this time. These people are seriously fucked up."

[wyldwolf]

105. You have a knack of posting replies that are pointless and..

..have nothing to do with the post you are replying to.

[Neshanic]

106. Another open mind.

"young, immature, and have too much time on their hands. Let's get focused - shall we?"

[wyldwolf]

107. Alas! There is another example

[Gloria]

99. Yup, and his audience of what ...is it still 375,000? --were blown away

utterly convinced...which leaves how many voters who haven't gotten the good word??

[wyldwolf]

104. why not demonstrate for us the total number of sources...

...and their audience totals, who have said, "yeah, this is true" versus those who have said, "these claims are dubious at best."

How about the infinite number of sources that ran the McCain quotes on the story being "dishonest?"

Show us that more sources are reporting it as FACT rather than just reporting that the charges are being made and that they are being disputed.

[bushwakker]

102. Only time will tell

but I fear you and I are right and the JK camp has taken a wrong turn by not responding in kind.

[wyldwolf]

97. Enough of an editorial?

I established quite plainly in post #45 that only the RW media is giving any credibility to the Swift Boat vets story.

I should also add tabloid style rags.

Moonie Times
Newsmax
Drudge
Editorials by people like you quoted.

All editorialized and not sourced.

I go to Google news and Lexis-Nexis

First page source pushing the Kerry-Cambodia story:

Washington Times (2 times)
New York Daily News
RushLimbaugh.com (2 times!)
World Net Daily

Other source are either reporting that the story is out there or disputing it.


Thanks for making my point quite nicely.

But show me a news source that is reporting it as fact.

[Gloria]

100. However, the Parker column appears regularly in the only paper in

Las Cruces and is part of a chain throughout NM owned by Gannett of Republican-leaning fame. It is NOT an editorial limited to this paper, it is a syndicated column.

So, these comments are MAINSTREAM...IN PRINT, not just at Drudge.

[wyldwolf]

101. Didn't say the column wasn't mainstream, but it IS Rightwing

..just as I said, and just as you just admitted.

Rightwing sources (mostly editorials) are "embracing" the story as fact. Other sources are not.

[Gloria]

125. This paper is what it is...AND it's the only one in town...and Parker

is also in other papers, not just Gannett papers.

To the uninformed, they don't know what this paper is, because they occasionally will throw the reader a bone with a anti-Bush policy cartoon. It is their local paper, that's all they know. They love it, it prints pictures of kids and the weather.

People don't see these columns as "right wing"--they see them as sources of info as well as opinion...Since this paper hasn't printed a factual story about boats or Cambodia, the sudden appearance of the Cambodia story on ANY page comes as a "revelation" to the masses. This may be their ONLY source of information, unless they see it on TV and by then, you can be almost sure they will never see much rebutting time there....

So, at the end of the day.....the subscribers to the Las Cruces Sun-News now "know" that Kerry "exaggerated" about being in Cambodia.....After a few more weeks of "flip flops" and "exaggerations"---what do you think people will be doing? Doubting??????????? I would think there's a real good chance of that......

[Neshanic]

108. Gloria, it's officially been put to bed...Sarcasm off

You see, the apartment complex I live in is populated by a majority of military, and of all the many people I talk to that are military, they do not know that the Swift Boat Creep is bogus. They are amazed when I talk to them about that and other things. But Tweety and the media got it covered for us. Don't worry...be happy!

[wyldwolf]

113. Yeah, you see...

My car mechanic, former military, knows it is bogus.

My mother does, too.

So I guess the media (minus the wingnuts) covered it for us. Don't worry...be happy!

[Walt Starr]

63. Strategy and tactics are two seperate things

Tactics are applied to the immediate situation, strategy takes the long term view.

In any given situation, you must first determine your strategic view, then you can apply tactics to the immediate situation with the strategic view in mind.

It has long been a given that strategic views may mean taking an immediate loss or a standoff in a given situation in order to postition yourself for a bigger win down the road. This is 'losing the battle but winning the war'.

The Smear Boat Vets for Bush situation was a lose-lose situation. No matter how it was approached, there was going to be a hit taken and damage done. It was coming no matter what. The strategic view in this situation was to minimize the long term damage while positioning the campaign for a bigger win over it later.

We've seen the damage, the win is coming. Sit back and watch. In the meantime, focus your energy against the media.

[bushwakker]

75. I've been trying to think of

a way in which this strategy (long term)) rebounds to JK's advantage. I've been wondering myself whether it was lose lose situation and keeping the powder dry was the best response. I've been surprised at the sustained push the attack. I knew it was coming but had it figured for about a 3 dy story which was way off. So now I question whether the JK camp could have shut it down by taking a different approach. It will interesting to see if they decide to change course. If they do it will be a sign that they are not happy with their original tactics.

[IndianaGreen]

67. This is another expansion of spin into the Internet

The spin meisters began by showing their stupid faces after every debate to tell us morons who won the debate and what candidate X meant to say when he said something really stupid. The spin meister for candidate Y would then tell us morons who won the debate and how unqualified candidate X was for saying something stupid.

Considering how screwed up our country has been since professional handlers have taken over the political process, I think that we morons are not morons at all!

I don't particularly care for the Ministry of Truth, no matter what letter follows it!

[Placebo]

84. I never want to see the words...

'judo' and 'politics' mixed together.

it sounds like some schoolteacher trying to make a subject 'cool' for their students. :shrug:

[bushwakker]

85. Or a strategist spinning failing strategy

[Kahuna]

123. Oh, no you didn't!

:evilgrin: :hi:

[bigtree]

87. Using the opponent's own weight against him

Perfect approach in this case and other clumsy attacks by the hapless swiftliars and other bushlosers.

[Placebo]

90. Well then just come out and SAY that!

At least that's right on and isn't all JUDO about it :bounce:

[bigtree]

92. oh, ...............................

well. :eyes: