An open question to the mods and the GD:P forum: Are Hillary Clinton supporters still welcome here?

[Elspeth]

The DNC decision leaves open the possibility that Clinton will take this fight to Denver. If that should happen, how are Hillary Clinton supporters going to be considered on this board? Will we be welcomed or tombstoned for supporting her? Will we be required to support Obama publicly on this board by the end of this week?

It's a tough question because there is a presumptive nominee, but there is still doubt and ambiguity until the convention is over.

Some input from the board might be helpful as well.

Elspeth

Democrat

[dkf]

1. I imagine once the magic number is reached Obama is the presumptive nominee.

Unless you think Ron Paul is still viable in the Republican race too.

[AllentownJake]

2. Here is what Skinner has said

WHAT WILL HAPPEN HERE ON DU WHEN WE HAVE A PRESUMPTIVE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE.

Let me be clear: We expect our members to support the Democratic nominee for president. This expectation has been written into our rules since as far back as 2002, and we aggressively enforced this rule in 2004 after it became clear that John Kerry was the presumptive nominee. In other words, this is not a secret. If you are at all shocked or surprised by this, then you have not been paying very close attention. Don't even bother trying to convince us otherwise. This was decided long ago, we've already heard all the opposing arguments over and over a thousand times, and we're not going to change our policy. Here is how this will work:

At some point between now and the Democratic convention in August, one of the two remaining Democratic front-runners will drop out of the race, and the remaining candidate will become the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. When we have a presumptive nominee, the time for fighting on DU will come to an end. The squabbling will not drag on until the "official" nomination at the convention in August. The transition to general election mode begins when we have a presumptive nominee. And we have no doubt that the vast majority of our members -- regardless of which candidate you support in the primaries -- will be glad to move forward and support the nominee.

We understand that not everyone will be prepared to immediately put the primaries behind us. There will be some jerks on the winning side who insist on gloating. And there will be some sore losers on the other side who will want to keep attacking the nominee. Once we have a presumptive nominee, those people will have one week to get it out of their systems. We believe that a one-week transitional period is more than fair for those of you who cannot switch gears easily or quickly. After this week-long adjustment period, we're done.

At that point, the moderators and admins will step in and shut down the primary infighting. The vast majority of people on this site will be glad to be done with the primaries. Sadly, a very small number of bitter partisans will not be able to let it go, and will likely be removed from this community. Few people will miss them when they are gone.

As usual, we will continue to permit constructive criticism of the Democratic nominee and of other Democratic candidates and officeholders. We will also continue to permit sincere, non-disruptive expressions of ambivalence toward the nominee. But we will not permit politically motivated attacks designed to tear down the Democratic presidential nominee.

[Elspeth]

6. "one of the two remaining Democratic front-runners will drop out of the race"

But what if this does not happen?

I'm not saying it won't, but what is the contingency plan if it doesn't?

[AllentownJake]

9. That will be up to Skinner and the moderators to decide

If she doesn't drop out they have a judgement call to make.

[Elspeth]

18. Exactly. And I'd like to know what their thinking is on this.

It's a tough call to make, BTW. I don't envy them.

[AllentownJake]

23. Either do I

However I believe he will be fair when he makes his decision and it will be thought out. I expect him to post something prior to Tuesday.

[Elspeth]

34. Hope so.

..

[WeDidIt]

56. I think they're waiting to see what happens before making a decision

to be perfectly honest.

Also, to be perfectly honest, I suspect Hillary Clinton will drop out completely once Obama has 2148 delegates because that would be 2118 if you remove all pledged delegates from Michigan (give or take a half).

[Elidor]

28. 'drop out sometime before the convention'

Don't worry. You're fine to post here. And you don't need anybody's permission.

[MethuenProgressive]

7. "There will be some jerks on the winning side who insist on gloating."

I promise to not gloat. :hi:

[Zhade]

109. You won't get a chance to, so no need to promise.

NT!

[JoFerret]

108. Seems clear enough

We should all be able to live with that don't you think?
Particularly if people get a handle on their tempers and check the foul name calling.

[WeDidIt]

3. One week after Obama reaches 2118 delegates

It's over according to that sticky up there.

[AllentownJake]

12. Not exactly

Its over when the loser concedes according to the sticky.

[WeDidIt]

25. I have a feeling that'll change

[AllentownJake]

29. As do I

However the rules do say concede as of today.

[Elspeth]

119. Yes, let's try to get that out there

Talk of purges is just silly.

[Texasgal]

4. I honestly HOPE

That NO ONE is tomb-stoned for passionately supporting their candidate.

I think the admins are smarter than that. Or at least, I hope. :)

[Marrah_G]

5. Els

You should probably delete this and as the mods in a PM.

[Elspeth]

10. Ordinarily I'd agree--but I think they need to think about this

I'm not sure where this summer is headed, but I'd like to know what the rules will be here.

[Avalux]

15. PM the administrators/mods with your question.

They probably will not respond to you in a public thread.

That said; read the rules. Once Obama has the nomination by the math, he will be the nominee. This forum will go away. After that, you will be expected to be supportive of the Democratic candidate.

[AllentownJake]

20. Nope

Once the loser concedes is in the rules. Not by math.

[Avalux]

33. Can you provide that for me?

If that's the case, I must have missed it. Thanks. :hi:

[AllentownJake]

38. Here you go. Or go to the Sticky

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6203332&mesg_id=6203382

[Avalux]

42. Much appreciated! I apologize for giving erroneous information.

:hi:

[AllentownJake]

43. I thought the same thing

Till I re-read the rules to respond to the OP

[Avalux]

47. I like your PA dutch quote BTW -

Got a bit of that in me. ;-)

[NashVegas]

35. I Agree With Marrah

The people who set this policy are the admins. If you have concerns, you should PM them.

[Occam Bandage]

8. I'd like to know the official word on when supporting HRC stops being kosher.

2118? The convention? November? The sticky says "when we have a presumptive nominee," but that might be a bit tricky to determine...

[Elspeth]

13. Exactly. When does it become anti-Democratic to support her?

Now? When the delegate total is reached? The convention (if she decides to fight it)?

With LIEberman, it was clear--he went independent. And if HRC does the same, then the rules would be the same. But in the murky area between now and the convention?

[AllentownJake]

16. Skinner is pretty proactive

I'm sure he'll address this issue as soon as Obama reaches the number needed one way or the other.

[melody]

74. If you're not backing the Democratic nominee, you're being anti-Democratic with the big d

I am nothing here, but I should think that would be obvious.

[onehandle]

11. DU mods and owners will welcome you, but many DUers will not.

The "you're with us or forget you" crowd is in control.

[Elspeth]

14. Well, they already don't welcome me

The routinely call me names and accuse me of racism. I'm not really talking about them: most of them have me on ignore anyway.

[onehandle]

52. I'm on at least one of those ignore lists floating around and I'm not a Hillary supporter.

Simply because I welcome discussion and reject the Free Republic like attacks around here.

That is telling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. HEY!!!!! That is actually a minority

just as the most vocal HRC supporters

I officially take umbrage :lol:

:hi:

This is almost over folks... and we have a GE to win

[Elspeth]

24. You took umbrage? I want my umbrage back.

And dry cleaned. :) :D

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Sure, here you go

cleaned and pressed

[Elspeth]

37. Nadin, you're the best!

:)

[LowerManhattanite]

17. Taking it up with the Mods privately would be the best thing...

Skinner himself has been quite clear in his post, and it would appear that based on that, the moment of decision is coming. Pressing the Mods publicly like this so soon is counter-productive. Let them do what they have to do, and direct your questions or doubts or confusions to them personally. Doing it this way is basically flame-bait.

[Elspeth]

45. Not meaning to be flame bait about this at all.

I've been just watching the responses to today and the anger against HRC supporters is really over the top. It's not a problem if we are still welcome, but if we're not, I'd like to avoid the tombstone.

[AllentownJake]

51. I haven't seen you post anything to merit it

So I wouldn't worry it.

You don't really post any Anti-Obama threads mostly Pro-Hillary threads.

Plus I'm pretty sure they warn posters who have been here a while first before they do it.

Its only the people with less than 50 post that get TSed immediately.

[Elspeth]

72. Thanks, I appreciate it.

:)

[LowerManhattanite]

69. I think it's a bit trite to ask “Are we still welcome?”...

All are welcome as no one can be booted away from their computer by the admins and mods.

The real question seems to be, “Is the 'kitchen sink' hardball against the presumptive nominee still going to be welcomed?” It scans as a question of “Will hyper-partisan obnoxiousness still be permitted?” That's a bit incendiary. And as things were, it wasn't welcomed at all (as seen from the various pizzas delivered for crazy behavior) but rather—tolerated.

Tolerance for that will be in short order soon—and rightly so, based on Skinner's sticky post.

And speaking of over-the-top stuff today, (the last 24 hrs) there has been some exceptionally heinous stuff put up—some even by Clinton supporters. Death-wishing on primary rivals and open cheering on of voting for McCain. So the venom you speak of is absolutely not exclusive to one side. No one has a claim on the victimhood prize here on DU. No one.

[Elspeth]

75. I don't know who put up "death wish" posts, but I never have, but was accused of

wanted Obama assassinated. It would very nice if there could be a moratorium on that kind of stuff, but this is mosh pit, so....

[AllentownJake]

96. and Aquarius was rightly TSed for his posts on that.

[Zhade]

110. Indeed. A more honest question would have been, "can clinton supporters still lie about Obama?"

NT!

[Darth_Kitten]

120. Honestly.

:eyes:

[Lerkfish]

19. considering the outrageously petulant display today at the committee

y'all should rethink WHY you're here.
to sow division or promote unity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That my friend is a minority, even the ones in the committee

by the reporters report, there were only 80 protesting outside the DNC... Ok that is the media, so add a couple hundred more

But it was still small by DC standards

Now the ones inside reminded me of Florida 2000... but that is still a SMALL minority

[Writer]

84. Yes, that was certainly a minority.

We're not all running about screaming. I mean, it would be nice if Clinton could get the nomination, but that's not going to happen.

An oh my, I couldn't imagine what it would be like if the tables were turned!

[ampad]

116. But the tables were not turned

And there is a good reason for that. It was made very clear today who wants to continue to divide the party and who doesn't by the blatant display of childish behavior and disrespect towards the rules committee by Hilly supporters. Obama asked his supporters not to show up and many people could of said the hell with it and showed up anyways but it didn't happen. Some people are able to understand what is at stake here, so imagine away. What is important is what really happened today not what you would assume would happen today based on whatever opinion you have of Obama supporters. I'm saying this because I keep seeing these "imagine what would happen if Obama supporters behaved like clown" post. As if that in any way makes what happened today any better for Hillary or the party in general. I don't think Obama supporters need a pat on the back for not showing up because it was the right thing to do. I just think it's shitty to bring Obama supporters into this "what if" scenario just because Hillary supporter put on a embarrassing display for the nation today. That is not Obama or Obama supporters cross to bear.

[Writer]

117. It's an easy thing to say when you're on top.

It's easy to claim that you'd always stick to the high road, that you'd always operate with nothing less than the highest ethical sensibility. Oh, blessed you!

But you know that people on both sides are human. That any person, regardless of who he or she supports, is just as capable of the same despicable acts. All it takes is the hunger that being on the bottom provides you. That need to push harder, and these women did - some even a bit too far.

But to think that they are a special brand of human - that they don't share the same brain matter and chemicals as people on "the other side" do is foolish. It's remarkable what you'll do when your back is against the wall.

So indeed, Obama's supporters would be just as capable of that type of activity if they were in that situation.

[Skip Intro]

30. ROFL!

promote unity?

Like the Obama posters here do?

With a kiss my ass here and monster there, a racist here and a traitor there, a warmonger here and a lowinfo voter there, a run her out of the party here and a Hillary supporters aren't real Democrats there?

That kinda unity?

[Lerkfish]

40. I repeat: WHY are you here? to sow discord or promote unity?

your answer determines your worth.

[Elspeth]

48. He's just showing you what he has dealt with on this board.

Being on the receiving end of the same kind of stuff, I understand that. The moral: if you want unity you have to act like you're talking to a fellow Dem and not Satan's minions. That's all.

[Lerkfish]

63. you're callin me "satan's minions"? on EDIT: my apologies

on edit: I reread your post and I misread it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Translation she is saying that it is time to drop the hostility

on your part.

Clear enough?

And she's right.

[Lerkfish]

71. um, sure, mea culpa, I"m the whole problem here.

by asking if someone is here to sow discord or promote unity.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. No it is everybody

nerves are rattled and people MISREAD a lot of what is posted

She asked YOU not to treat her as if SHE WERE one of Satan's Minions

And truth be told, the same talk needs to be given to many a Clinton supporter.

Got it?

On to NOVEMBER!

The primary is over (And thank goodness for that)

[Elspeth]

81. Exactly. Lots of nerves on edge.

:hi:

[LowerManhattanite]

86. A cessation of hostilities ON BOTH SIDES...

...is what will have to happen. No one side gets a pass on civility, regardless of the position of the two candidates.

Many here place their over-the-top, flame-baiting stuff under the guise of “Well, 'X' is behind so we deserve a special dispensation.”

Nope.

Two fighters in a ring—one is getting beaten up badly, The pummeler decides, “Okay, no more punches—this is brutal.”

The pummel-ee says “Thank you. For that break so I can punch you in the nads repeatedly. But YOU CAN'T HIT BACK! I'M LOSING, REMEMBER?”

It doesn't work like that. Let 'em throw jabs and what-not. But they ain't allowed to go below-the-belt because that's what they feel they need to do to win.

All that's gonna get 'em is more smashes to the grille—fully warranted smashes to the grille.

[Elspeth]

80. No, no, no...I am Satan's minions....:D

Least that's what I been told...

[2rth2pwr]

22. There are only a handful left, most have been driven away or ts'd.

[AllentownJake]

26. Alot of them earned their Granite Cookie

[Elspeth]

49. And alot of them just left

Period.

[2rth2pwr]

32. Fucking double post again.

[ccharles000]

36. All democrats should be welcomed.

[AllentownJake]

41. They should be however

The site will not tolerate attacking the nominee once he/she is decided.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6203332&mesg_id=6203382

[Elspeth]

57. Correct. It's about the "decided" that I am concerned.

Normally, it is about the concession of one of the candidates. But the concession may not come in this case until after the convention. Quite unusual.

[AllentownJake]

62. Your benign

No offense. I wouldn't be worried about your post and this is coming from someone who had a lengthy argument earlier today with you.

[Elspeth]

85. Yeah, but you introduced me to Lee Mercer

My life is permanently changed!

[AllentownJake]

88. Lee Mercer

will heal the wounds of the primary.

[Elspeth]

91. He will also provide all the post primary food.

:donut:

[progetto]

104. nor should they threaten to vote for McSame

if they don't get their preferred candidate.

Repeat after me, I support the Democratic nominee <period>

[Doityourself]

46. Yes they should...within reason. Being a democrat doesn't mean you get card blanche to say whatever

you want...

[Elspeth]

60. Like what?

?

[Doityourself]

73. Ask Skinner..I'm sure he has a list of do and donts

[Elspeth]

87. :)

:)

[LowerManhattanite]

90. “Sigh!” Now you're just playing coy.

Moving on...

[sniffa]

99. Passive aggressive

It's a running shtick.

If all holds true to form, I'll get the response of,

"Sniffa, you really love me.

:donut: "

[Elspeth]

113. Ah, my favorite DU poster--Sniffa!

Have some popcorn. :)

:popcorn:

[Elspeth]

114. No, I really want to know what Doityourself means.

I'm curious as to what the poster thinks should be said and shouldn't be said.

[jillan]

39. Els - we haven't been for months.

I can't see how it's going to get any better.

[stray cat]

44. Democrats who unlike Lieberman are not voing for the GOP are always welcome

although if both sides would avoid mindless flamebaiting it would be appreciated!

[Aloha Spirit]

50. I think it's absolutely essential that Clinton supporters are welcome here.

But once someone concedes, that candidate's supporters will hopefully take some time to seriously consider what McCain stands for.

[mvd]

53. Until Skinner/admin make some announcement..

as far as I know, the rules will not be enforced any differently. You can always contact the admins here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/contact.html

mvd
DU Moderator

[Occam Bandage]

58. Absolutely understood; I think we're just looking for a signal as to whether the rules

will be changing next week (assuming Obama hits 2118 and Hillary announces she's launching a quixotic Convention quest), or whether they'll be as they are today until September.

[mvd]

66. I suggest you contact admins for that

if anything is announced privately, I can't reveal that. A lot probably depends on how long Clinton keeps fighting. :hi:

[Elspeth]

78. Exactly.

Thanks.

[Kahuna]

54. When Obama reaches the required delegates next week he WILL BE

our presumptive nominee. Billary and their supporters can bleat whinny and neigh until the cows come home and it won't change a thing. So, once Obama is officially our presumptive nominee (next week) he is off limits for abuse.

On edit: I gather that the mods are giving hillbots a week to grieve and get over it.

[Elspeth]

65. Apparently, the rules are that a concession by Clinton would be necessary

There are a few posts here that refer to that.

[AllentownJake]

67. The rules on this site

call for a concession. So, until that changes or she concedes there is no change in GDP

[IsItJustMe]

55. Looks like we will have a presumptive nominee (Obama), and still have Hillary in the race. Most

sane people would drop out. I don't think Hillary will. So we may very well go into August with the existing situation as is. Not good because trolls will get on here (Hillary supporter posers) and trash him.

All I can say is get use to it. Tolerance and patience is a must.

[OzarkDem]

59. Primary race continues

there is no presumptive nominee, especially before the Convention.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Next week

[stray cat]

61. Surely Joe Lieberman is welcome here

Clinton supporters I assume would welcome him - right? Is he a democrat?""

[Elspeth]

70. LIEberman is an independent and support for him is not welcomed here.

If HRC went independent, then the same would go for her.

[stray cat]

89. He caucauses with the democrats and I think kept his committee apts

[Elspeth]

92. You know that's a good point.

I hadn't thought about it in those terms.

[progetto]

103. isn't Joe supporting McSame ?

It sure looks like he is, and if so he's not welcome.

[Raine]

64. My understanding is that

you can be for who you want as long as you don't advocate AGAINST the nominee by promoting their defeat.

[H2O Man]

76. Sure.

I don't think that Kucinich or Dodd or Biden or Edwards supporters were ever not welcome here. I don't know why Clinton supporters wouldn't be.

[Zachstar]

82. To me Clinton supporters that support her taking this to the convention will not be welcome.

[Elspeth]

83. That's probably the crux of the question.

Hence the post. This was something we weren't worrying about before.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Per Skinner's once we have enough Delegates we have a nominee

so I think at that point it will revert to good ol' GD: Politics

And it cannot happen a second too soon

[Elspeth]

94. You mean you won't miss the mosh pit?

:popcorn: (I'm hungry)

[AllentownJake]

95. Nope

Re-Read the rules I was surprised as well it says concession nothing about the number being reached.

[Elspeth]

97. It surprised me when you posted it.

That makes for a possibly messy summer.

[AllentownJake]

98. Doesn't mean at a certain point it won't change

I don't mind people being Pro-Hillary after the nominee is decided. I just don't want to see anything anti-Obama.

[Elspeth]

102. Well, we'll see what Skinner and the mods come up with.

Again, I don't envy them.

[SoCalDem]

101. Amen!

Seeing as how she "lost" the "real possibility of winning"...waaaaaaaaaay back in March, it really aggravates me to think about all the shit she threw at our "real candidate" and all the money she forced him to waste...and all the precious TIME he lost...time needed to organize,...to rest..to travel to foreign countries, like Mccain did.. well that's all stuff we cannot get back, and I certainly do not relish the thought of Hillary's aggrieved fans continuing to piss in our DU pool..ALL SUMMER LONG :grr:..No Thanks!!

[Crunchy Frog]

100. I don't think they should be allowed to attack Obama and his supporters anymore.

If they want to post positive things about Hillary, then I don't have a problem with that. I don't think ANYbody's interests would be served by us being allowed to rip each other to shreds for the next three months. There are plenty of other places out there where you can attack Obama.

[progetto]

105. amen n/t

[Steely_Dan]

106. So, Let me see if I understand this...

According to what Skinner has said, anyone not supporting the Dem nominee will be REMOVED. I may save them the headache. The way SOME Obama supporters have acted on this board makes me hesitant to COMPLY. I suppose that makes me a racist.

But wait! Do I really want to leave or be kicked out???

GOBAMA...Save us from ourselves, Mr. Obama. You are the greatest. We are blessed to have you as our nominee.

There...that should do it.

-P

YOU WILL COMPLY....YOU WILL COMPLY...YOU WILL COMPLY....
So, will the Obama people still be allowed to trash Hillary? Just curious.

-P

[Crunchy Frog]

107. You don't need to support the nominee. You just can't oppose him in your posts here.

[Zhade]

111. Telling the truth about clinton's lies isn't trashing her.

NT!

[Steely_Dan]

112. Hey Look...

I don't support either of these candidates. They are both political poison for us in November.

You know what I'm talking about...don't you??? Are you honestly going to try and convince anyone that she hasn't been trashed on this board constantly??? I think calling her a:

cunt
bitch
traitor
murderer
cheater
lesbian*
evil
anti-Christ
ice queen

qualifies as trashing the woman.

I dislike Ms. Clinton...I really do. But, I cannot understand why so many Obama supporters find such satisfaction in making her sound like the most evil person to ever walk the earth.

*(not that there is anything wrong with that.)

Let's face it...we could not have hand-picked two people that would be more divisive to not only our party but to the electorate as a whole.

-P

[Elspeth]

115. You are sounding dangerously independent

:donut:

[Elspeth]

118. kick

:kick:

[Straight Shooter]

121. If we are welcome here -- BIG IF -- we will be blamed for all that goes wrong with Obama's campaign.

The blame game has begun in earnest, starting with talkingpointsmemo.com, described in this DU thread as the "most awesome post evah!" Hear that? It's not just a good post, nor is it merely an excellent post, it's the most awesome post evah!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6217014&mesg_id=6217014

The marching orders are in place. What a carefully-coordinated attack machine the blogosophere has become. Considering human nature, it was inevitable.