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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:55 PM
Original message
Here is a simple litmus test
Look, I'm going to make it really easy.

If by this coming Wednesday, you still support Hillary Clinton taking this primary all the way to the convention, you are not a Democrat.

That's being super generous, considering Barack Obama has been the Democratic nominee for about 2 months now. But I'll cut you some slack and pretend to agree that she still had even the remotest chance at winning the nomination back then.

Florida and Michigan have been decided. She deserved nothing and got more than any rational person would have given her, thanks in no small part to Obama's willingness to compromise on that which shouldn't have been in contention in the first place. The decision to seat those delegates, even if they only get half a vote, is an absolute travesty of Democracy and everything Democrats are supposed to stand for. But I digress.

In the past, whenever a nomination was taken all the way to the convention, the nominee lost the general election. That's just a fact that you can look up for yourself on Wikipedia if you want to. Nancy Pelosi knows this and so do the super delegates. They are going to back Barack Obama 4 days from now, and he will officially be the "presumptive nominee".

Supporting Hillary Clinton's crusade to the convention is tantamount to supporting John McCain. If you support John McCain, you are no Democrat and have no place in the Democratic party, no place on this board, and frankly, are a traitorous scumbag beyond any help.

Do you want the supreme court to get two more religious fundamentalist justices? Do you want the Iraq war to continue for another hundred years? Do you want to lose your job, your health care, and your civil rights? Taking it to the convention is almost certainly a guaranteed John McCain presidency. I would like to think things are different this time, and maybe they are, but why even take the chance? Why give McCain any advantage?

There are three groups of people in this forum right now. Clinton supporters, Obama supporters, and the rest of us. Obama supporters have been on his side from the beginning, while Clinton supporters have been on her side from the beginning. But "the rest of us" includes people like me, who supported one of the other candidates (Kucinich), and realized after super Tuesday that the presumptive nominee was Barack Obama.

Others did the math after Wisconsin, while others did it after Ohio and Texas. Some remaining undecideds did it after Pennsylvania, while still other remaining die hard Clinton supporters did it after North Carolina, West Virginia, Kentucky, and Oregon, and all have come to the correct conclusion that the Democratic nominee is Barack Obama. Because they are Democrats, they have switched their allegiances accordingly.

At this point, anybody working against Barack Obama is either a Republican or a Republican. You can say that he was friends with a coke addicted pastor of a church that burned crosses 20 years ago and make the case that he can't win the general election, but that makes you a Republican. You can say he can't win the states needed in November because he eats babies for dinner, but that makes you a Republican.

Cite mountains of research (undoubtedly authored by Karl Rove), polls, and studies indicating why he can't win, say Michelle is a hindrance, say America is racist and not ready for a black president, say he fumbles at debates and speaks in too many platitudes without substance, say he's too tall or he has big ears or he's too young or people think he's Muslim or his middle name is Hussein - Any excuse to make a case against him: It makes you a Republican.

There is no reason for the rest of us to be convincing fellow Democrats to support the Democratic nominee because by definition, fellow Democrats already support the Democratic nominee.

In the past I have listed various positions one ought to hold as a litmus test to call oneself a "liberal". Simple things like being 100% against war, or capital punishment, etcetera. I have always stated that the Democratic party needs to be run by the liberal base, but I recognize that there are conservatives, "moderates", and others who also want to call themselves "Democrats", and those people have replied to me, in not so subtle language, that the Democratic party needs them as well, and how dare I tell them what to believe.

Well this time it's not so complicated. There are two candidates running for president this November. One is named John McCain, and he has an "R" next to his name. The other is named Barack Obama, and he has a "D" next to his name. If you are a Democrat, you won't actively undermine the Democrat running for president in November.

You'll instead work to attack the Republican, you'll denounce the talking points sure to come Obama's way via the corporate media (It's already starting: "Obama's new pastor problem"), you'll rightly flame any concern trolls, you'll cheer on Obama as he tears McCain a new one at the debates, you'll vote for him in November and you'll jump for joy and pop a bottle of champaign when he crushes McCain in a landslide victory.

Then, as a true Democrat, after he is sworn in as president of the United States, you'll criticize him if he doesn't fight for what's right, doesn't stand his ground against the Republican machine, or doesn't end this disastrous Iraq war. You'll demand that he hold Bush and Cheney and the rest of them accountable for their crimes against humanity. You'll demand that he adopt a true universal health care plan.

What you won't do is try to make it as hard as possible for him to win in November. That means getting off the delusion that Hillary Clinton can still win this primary. It means accepting the winner of this process, no matter any reservations you may have about him, no matter your hurt feelings, no matter what hopes you had for your candidate.

It means you'll vote for him, even if you have to plug your nose, you'll vote for him. It means you won't make demands for VP positions, or threaten to cut support because of real or perceived offenses committed against you by other supporters of his, or by "the rest of us", who are sick and tired of Hillary Clinton and all that she stands for.

This is what makes one a Democrat. Hillary Clinton has declared war on the Democratic party. If she doesn't drop out, and I don't believe she will (though I certainly hope I'm wrong), then Wednesday is decision day. You can be a Democrat, or you can be a Republican. It would be nice if it wasn't a two party system, but that's the unfortunate reality. Continuing to support someone who actively attacks the Democratic nominee doesn't make you a Democrat. There are no more contests after Wednesday. This is it. No more excuses. Decide now.
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Brundle_Fly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R and standing in solidarity.
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rainbow4321 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R!
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jbm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'll make it easy too..
Obama can't win the GE, so I'll ignore the presidential election, and work for the Dem candidates who won't be a waste of time and money.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Bye!
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
16. An excellent strategy. Besides, the lower down on the ticket, the more important the office, IMO.
Local politicians have much more impact on our daily lives then Presidents.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. But they don't appoint SC justices or get to pack the federal bench. n/t
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. Because why? n/t
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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
25. watch that door on your way out.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. Bollocks. And besides have you ever heard of "coat tails"
Get people to go vote for Obama and they'll vote for the Dems down ticket.
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mudesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Of course he can't
He can't beat the Clinton machine, either. He can't he can't he can't...:sarcasm:

Every time people say he can't, he does.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. Later, dud.
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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. oh, yay!
another of the reality impaired heard from.
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rebel with a cause Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
60. Why I love my neighbor state.
:sarcasm:
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ToddinWI Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
66. why?
Why is it that Obama cannot win the GE? I've been a bit puzzled by this one and maybe you can help me out. In your help on this, please qualify 'can't' against a view that he may not or probably will not.

Thanks a bunch.
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qijackie Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-31-08 11:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Who made you 'da boss?
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. He's the night manager.
Get your hairnet on.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. k&r! What you said! Awesome post!
:applause:

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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. This post rocks - K&R!
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. And here we have another classic case of CUDD...
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 12:03 AM by guruoo
or, Center of the Universe Deficit Disorder
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qijackie Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Made me laugh - thanks!!
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wvbygod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
54. or better yet....CRUD
Cranial Rectum United Disorder
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FightingIrish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. Doesn't she have any advisers who tell her what it looks like
to the core of the real Democratic party? How can she possibly think that the vast majority of thinking Democrats would be favorably impressed with the freak show she put on today? Does she really believe that X and Y chromosomes trump her poor choice to approve and enable Bush's disastrous war? I think we have been overly influenced by the onslaught of trolls at this site to believe that there really is a true Democratic base that supports the likes of the Clinton family empire. Her party is over. Our party is back on course and sailing strong.
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qijackie Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. That made me laugh, too!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
12. It really is that simple.......
especially since Barack Obama really hasn't done anything that would have earned the ire of "real" Democrats anyway.

I won't even say they are just Republicans....but will specify to say that these folks are Republican NeoCon Anti-Choice Corporate McBush Bots.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
34. Can we call those guys "Chaots" (TM). n/t
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D23MIURG23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
62. No. That term is already taken by a nicer organization.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. Come Wednesday I'll consider most HRC supporters to be flat earther freepers.
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qijackie Donating Member (238 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Hmmm - did you ever read "Flatland"? Great book!!!!
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beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R!
:)
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
19. Alas, I have but one recommendation to give
"There are two candidates running for president this November. One is named John McCain, and he has an "R" next to his name. The other is named Barack Obama, and he has a "D" next to his name. If you are a Democrat, you won't actively undermine the Democrat running for president in November."


:applause:

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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well then, let me add one more to yours. And a solid AMEN!
K&R.
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. Lies
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 01:20 AM by SlipperySlope
Lie #1: "considering Barack Obama has been the Democratic nominee for about 2 months now"

Oh, has the convention already been held? Funny thing, but there is no nominee until the delegates cast their votes, and that happens in Denver this August. Until then, Obama and Hillary both remain just candidates for the nomination.

Lie #2: "In the past, whenever a nomination was taken all the way to the convention, the nominee lost the general election. That's just a fact that you can look up for yourself on Wikipedia if you want to."

Learn how to use Wikipedia. Have you ever heard of someone named Franklin Delano Roosevelt? Last I checked he won the 1932 general election, after taking the nomination fight all the way to the party convention.

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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. failure
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. is your middle name?
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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. is your legacy
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SlipperySlope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. is a funny hat with tassels.
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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #38
44. that you wear... to hrc rallies.
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dorktv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. Actually there were plenty of cases where there WAS no floor fight and we lost.
Just as recently as 2004 in fact.

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cbayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
43. Oh, that pesky little FDR fact again.
He then went on to win four GE's. Things that make you go, hmmmmmm.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #21
56. Thanks for facts.
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ToddinWI Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #21
64. FDR
The difference between FDR and modern examples like 1980 is the difference in the nominating systems.

In the case of 1932, there was no primary system and the nomination process was quite different (I believe it was 2/3 majority, but maybe somebody can help me out). In addition, I believe there were three other nominees with considerable support.

The primary difference between today and then is that if you did not have near unanimous consent prior to the convention, it was going to be a bit of a floor fight to count up the support and make deals.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent OP (as usual). K & R.
:thumbsup:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
23. Bravo! K&R
:patriot:
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
28. K&R
Time to move on.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
32. If you're not with us, you're against us.
I'll make my response even simpler.

No.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #32
42. ...But you ARE against us. Duh
Barack Obama is the Democratic front-runner, the strongest poller, and will be coming out of the convention as the Democratic party's nominee.

You are against all that. It's simple logic, really. every time you or another shill ejaculates one of your "BUT HE'S A MUSLIM AND HIS WIFE'S A BITCH AND HISPANICS AND WHITE PEOPLE HATE HIM AND HE'S A MOBSTER WHO SUCKS GOAT PENIS!" posts, that you dolts throw out, three times a day per person, every day, here on GD:P... you're vocalizing your support for John McCain, because Hillary is not going to be the nominee. She's not. I'm sorry that you people aren't bright enough to realize this, but it's the plain and simple fact. You seek to divide the party, not for the good of the country, or to the benefit of the party... but because your entire self-worth revolves around getting Clinton in the white house.

Personally, I don't want to "meet in the middle" with the fascists of the Republican party. Nor do I want a "unity ticket" with a campaign and following made of people who couldn't find their own asses with both hands and a sherpa.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Sorry you see it that way.
But be clear; it is you that is defeating your candidate with your purge.

And if you're going to put things in quotes, you should be able to demonstrate that someone said it.

I intend to work to defeat McCain in the general. But I will not pretend that Obama has better policy than his primary opponent. If she goes to the convention, I go with her.

It's Skinner's decision. If he wants to throw me off his site because I support the wrong democrat, that's his business. But I will not switch my support to the candidate with the inferior policy until he's the official nominee.

With all due respect, and at risk of understatement, you are demonstrating lackluster political skills.
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. My purge, is it?
I'd much rather see some Hillary supporters stop bawling in the sandbox and come to the realization that she is not going to be the nominee. Sadly it is pretty obvious at this point that the majority of people who support Hillary are not going to stop crying. A large number of them are not going to work in the interests of the party - witness the Clinton supporters marching in Florida, carrying "McCain '08" signs.

I might be displaying lackluster political skills. But I'm not a politician, am I?
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ToddinWI Donating Member (19 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #46
67. Policy?
You wrote,

"But I will not pretend that Obama has better policy than his primary opponent."

I've looked at the policies and they seem to be pretty close on most issues. Can you please do me a favor and let me know where the big gulf is in policy? I'm up on the health care differences.

Thanks a bunch.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-02-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. The healthcare differences by themselves are substantive and tremendously important.
I consider healthcare the most important issue facing us. The difference is between a solution that may work and one absolutely will not.

On Iraq, Hillary understands that she would be the commander in chief, she doesn't make a huge point of deferring to "the generals" to create redeployment policy.

Hillary's efforts on behalf of kids, and particularly kids with disabilities are beyond reproach. Obama may be as well, but it is not yet clear. I also consider the rural poverty that I see every day as a big unaddressed problem. That is one of the things that attracted me to Edwards. Clinton is the only one of the two to have appeared to get Edwards message. Edwards endorsement of Obama appears to be more pragmatic than principled.


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hendo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
59.  no offense
but you are hurting the cause. As annoying as it is, Hillary supporters have every right to support her until she drops out. If she doesn't drop out after the primaries are over and Obama has the magic number of delegates, maybe more of her supporters will start to question her intentions.

Until then, yes I think they should support Obama, but you can't force them to. They still have the freedom to support their candidate of choice.


Besides, the "you're either with us or against us" is so Bush. Personally, I want to move beyond those tactics and prepare for a strong showing for Obama across all parties.

Please do not bash republicans or independents because they are possible Obama supporters. If you piss them off, they just might go and vote for McCain. Obama's whole campaign has been about reaching out to non-traditional democrat voters. We are going to need all of the non-trad democrats this fall to have a landslide victory for Obama.

So, please, please, please act more like Obama. Maybe DU should make some WWOD bracelets. Then every time an Obama supporter is tempted to make a nasty comment about the opposition, they can just look down at their wrist and do the appropriate thing instead. Kill them with kindness, they won't see it coming.
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MasonJar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
35. My suggestion to you is that you STOP worrying about what we
Clinton supporters do and act with a little grace like your candidate. He figured out weeks ago that threatening and name calling and other anti-Clinton supporter mantra was a poor way to garner the other candidate's Democratic voters (to his side.) I have warned you inciters time and again. If Obama loses, it is on your head for your despicable mistreatment of Hillary and her advocates. I personally will support all Dem nominees, including Obama, but the fact that you are continuing at this point to diminish and disparage DEMOCRATIC voters who actually like Hillary for Pres is not only uncharitable, but also non productive for your favorite. We are Democrats and you will not make us less by your incredible sophistry!!!! I challenge you to prove to me that you have done more work for the party than I.
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IsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Brutally honest and to the point. Hell yes I am a Democrat and I got your back.
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Tommy_Carcetti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
40. "The decision to seat those delegates,even if they only get half a vote, is an absolute travesty..."
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 09:32 PM by PeterU
You totally lost me at that sentence.

Seriously, you are so outraged at that?

Talk about your screwed up priorities.
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bagimin Donating Member (945 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
41. k&r
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
45. Get off your pompous ass and down to earth.
Who are you to tell me what I'll do and when I'll do it... if I am a Democrat? I'll do and say what I want and stay on DU as long as I want and you will have NO say in the matter....NONE! So get your panties out of that wad and put some diapers on before you wet yourself with excitement.

Since when did Skinner die and leave you in charge around here? Go preach some where else...not on my site.

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Cheap_Trick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. your site? YOUR SITE?!
Since when did Skinner die and bequeath you his site?

Another of the reality impaired heard from.:eyes:

Keep up anti-Obama rhetoric after he's the OFFICIAL nominee and YOU get no say in the matter....NONE! V

ote for McCain and you get NO say in the matter....NONE!

Vote for McCain and you are not welcome here.

Just like in 2000 and 2004....anyone who voted Republican was not welcome here.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
57. Cheers!
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. this entire post can be summed up thusly : "She deserved nothing"
just one more anti-hillary rant. as for 'war', the only war that has been going on has been the one began by the corporate media that 'nominated' obama and has made sure he will be the nominee.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
50. Like hall monitors with ego issues. You don't decide whether I'm a Democrat or not, I do. Don't need
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 10:35 PM by Skip Intro

your declarations or your "Real Democrat" lapel pins.
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wvbygod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
52. A much better litmus test
If a reader of the OP hyperbole litmus test can stomach the projections and indignation
and allow it to speak of or for them then they may want to get another more valuable opinion...their own.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
53. As with most 'litmus tests,'
Edited on Sun Jun-01-08 10:46 PM by elleng
is has very limited relevance.
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 10:46 PM
Response to Original message
55. I cannot agree with you...
'Florida and Michigan have been decided. She deserved nothing and got more than any rational person would have given her, thanks in no small part to Obama's willingness to compromise on that which shouldn't have been in contention in the first place. The decision to seat those delegates, even if they only get half a vote, is an absolute travesty of Democracy and everything Democrats are supposed to stand for.'

...if for no other reason.
You've lost perspective.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
58. If it goes to convention, it goes to convention.
The real GE is being waged in the Primary season of the Democratic party.. Which way will we proceed? Which candidate will we intrust to take this country out of the gutter. Clinton/ DLC style or New/ Obama DNC style. This is a fight within the party. This is a fight for which way we proceed. McCain won't win the GE. More people have switched parties and become mobilized by the Democrats this year. A lot of the new one's are newbies and do not understand the internal fight within the Democratic Party itself. Some of our new garnished supporters and new Republicans and Independents who have found a home probably don't understand what kind of power struggle is happening within the party at this time (great time to show our asses--LOL).

We will see what will happen. I think the SD are trying to give a gracious exit to two people who have done a lot for this country and a lot for the party. However, I don't believe the SD's will allow this to go to the convention... I know that when Dodd and Nelson were on CNN today, Nelson was conceding, but pushing for a VP spot for Clinton still. I think this is what she is really holding out for. I'm not sure it would work?
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mrbluto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
61. A better litmus test - for being reasonable.
What makes someone the nominee?

a.) They are selected at the convention. True or False?

b.) Is there a nominee or a presumptive nominee before then?

If A is true and presumptive is what any nominee must be until confirmed then there there's a reasonable, if perhaps small chance, that in a brokered convention someone other than a recognized presumptive nominee might be selected.

Presumptive means Presumtive - NOT etched in granite. There's a reason delegates go to a convention, rather than we all vote in an election: there is room for deliberation and (gasp) bargaining and negotiation. Which should be fine so long as we trust the skill and intent of the negotiators.

To suggest that anyone who considers that a possibility, works toward that outcome, and is doing so out of their sincere wish to help the party, is not a Democrat is unreasonable.

The charitable interpretation is that it is mere chest-beating.

The more realistic interpretation is that it's the sort of attitude that is a short step away from the mentality that can put Al Gore, "phony soliders", George Soros, Keith Olberman, and Barak Obama on a list of "Traitors".

Same dynamic.

Just kneels at a different alter.

Being the nominee, or not, is a matter that results from a specific process.

That process does not resolve until August.

Admit that, or admit you suggest changing the rules.

If you admit neither you tacitly admit you can't separate your desires from reality.

p.s.; I'll be surprised as hell if I get any responses to this that are more than name-calling and bluster. If any. This is the place where they like to let difficult posts "sink" if I recall.

Also - I don't intend to "attack" the Republican nominee - the "attack" mentality is half the problem. An earnest critique should do the trick. "Attacks" can be dismissed as mere hostility - a real critique, could be better for both parties.

Why would I ever want to help a Republican?

News flash: they're citizens too. At least their base is. And if the base of the Republican party seems afraid to listen to reason then ask your self how you feel when the Republican leadership beats the drums, calls us traitors, and says they want to kick us all out of the country. Scared people don't listen to reason well. We might not always be in such a strong position. We may have to work with them. This is the understanding that Rove worked so hard to destroy. Why do Rove's work? (this is not to say we should continue to triangulate and capitulate.)

Don't make it "Us vs. Them". The Republican leadership loves that, they excel at that. Make it "Us all...into the future." really make it "Yes WE can" That's the most effective way to ensure the Cheneys and Roves of the world won't have a base with which to come back at us in four-to-eight years.

Here's the list I mentioned by the way. See if you find yourself agreeing with wingnuts.



Article about the list is here: http://wonkette.com/400068/wingnuts-rank-americas-best-patriots-worst-traitors
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
63. Litmus is much more useful
in chemistry than in life.
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beyurslf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-01-08 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
65. I am a 4th group. A HRC supported who now supports Obama.
I have for about a month or so. I still like Hillary and I wish she would have won, but she didn't. The more important thing is beating McCain.
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