Attacking McCain's age is wrong, in part because "McCain Aims for Backlash Among Seniors"

[IndyOp]

1. I urge us all to stop denigrating McCain because of his age - to stop calling him "gramps" or "grampy" - because it is wrong from a moral perspective, it does not follow Obama's demand that his campaign respect everyone.

All of us have elderly friends and family. When I hear McCain being attacked as "gramps," I feel as if people are attacking my elderly friends and family. Ageism is a deeper prejudice in our nation than either racism or sexism -- studies using the "Implicit Association Test" have revealed that this is so. No matter your age, race or sex you are likely to associate age with a variety of negative traits. Measuring Ageism with the IAT

Pointing out specific examples of McCain's mental and emotional instability is fine. Implying that he is unstable because he is old is wrong.

"Grumpy McCain" is fine - "Grampy McCain" is not.


2. Attacking McCain's age by calling him "gramps" dismisses a very important fact of Obama's personal history - he consistently seeks older mentors who help him make progress more quickly than others his age and who help him work on problems at a deeper level than is possible when we consider only recent history.

...with Illinois State Senator Emil Jones


...with Senator Byrd


...with Senator Kennedy


...with Senator Lugar



3. Ending attacks on McCain's age will help heal the division between Clinton and Obama supporters. The division between Clinton and Obama supporters is not just a division between people who supported two candidates that differ in policies and personalities, it is not just a division between female and male -- it is also a division based on attitudes about age. To the extent that people continue to slam McCain's age, they continue to irritate many (most?) Clinton supporters...

[bunkerbuster1]

1. You've convinced me.

Excellent points.

I've referred to him as "Gramps" McCain in the past. I won't any more.

[IndyOp]

24. Thank you. I really appreciate your reply. (n/t)

[anonymous171]

2. McCain is pretty old for his age though. I don't remember Dole being that out of it.

[IndyOp]

7. You are helping me make my point -

The traits you are referring to when you say he is "pretty old for his age" -- those are the traits we need to emphasize not the chronological age.

I want a brilliant President with incredible energy, wisdom, social intelligence, concentration, an open mind, good health, exceptional command of all of the information relevant to solving a wide variety of problems -- if he is missing the mark on any of those traits, then focus on that perceived weakness.

[PoliticalAmazon]

85. Dole was pretty bad. I remember he kept calling his wife "Hillary"....

...which was a very uncomfortable thing.

McCain's age and intermittent confusion are only part of the picture but (IMO) are as important as his propensity to blow up and attack people over very minor issues.

[Alter Ego]

3. McCain's age and temper are just the icing on the turd cake

that is his candidacy. His age raises legitimate questions--is he going to be able to survive a term as President? He'll be 76 at the end of his first if by some godawful nightmare he manages to get elected. Is he healthy enough to stand up to the rigors that come with the job?

Whether seniors like it or not, McCain's possible frailty will be a turn-off for some.

[Forkboy]

4. I pointed this out, without the pics and graphs, a couple weeks back.

I should have included the pics and graphs as it makes the point better. :)

Some of the stuff is funny, don't get me wrong, but the elderly make up a big voting bloc and there could be backlash if it's taken too far. I suspect that the ones offended would probably be voting for McCain anyways, but it's something to keep in mind. If it gets too mean spirited it could hurt.

[KansDem]

5. 'Atta boy, John. When you've got nothing to offer, go for the sympathy vote.

Yeah, I want 95 years more of the Iraq nightmare, war with Iran, more neo-con puppets on the Supreme Court, another depression, more dependence on Saudi oil--all because enough Americans felt sorry for you.


DON'T YOU FEEL SORRY FOR ME?

[Raejeanowl]

14. Don't Hate Him Because He's Beautiful.....Errrr.....Older

Hate him for other, ideological, philosophic or behavioral reasons, maybe?

Surely you can discern the difference between unearned sympathy for the devil, and keeping your own biases in check?

Otherwise, I wish you luck and happiness in your own later years when you encountering this delicious form of moral ignorance as a TARGET.

[KansDem]

26. Don't quite understand your response.

His handlers are playing up the anticipated "backlash" from senior citizens who vote. Sounds like he doesn't have much of a platform to run on. I mean, what is the current GOP platform?

1) Limit government spending? HA, that's a laugh!
2) Stay out of foreign entanglements? Oh, yeah, sure...
3) National security? Yeah, while we're dependent on Saudi oil...
4) The economy? HAHAHAHA!!!
5) Smaller government? Ooooh, yeah...we have that, don't we?

As for me being "a target," I'm not running for POTUS. And if I were, I wouldn't be looking to garner votes from "supporters" who feel sorry for me...

Savvy?

[Raejeanowl]

51. He's Trying To Garner Votes Any Way He Can

I didn't say you personally had to respect him for it. I'm really not even defending him, or whatever little GOP platform (ha!) exists. Wasn't attempting to support HIM or THEM at all. Obviously, age doesn't keep him from going for the main chance, if that's it.

My point is more along the lines of...Dems refraining from using ageism to diss McCain, isn't the same as supporting McCain or "feeling sorry" for him. His years aren't a valid reason to criticize him in the first place. Dems refraining is just Dems trying to model their own purported progressive values, I thought. Keeping our consciences clear on this point is actually refusing to feed the age-bashing sympathy monster.

Not for him. For us.

You being a target: Well, I have no idea of your age. But I'm sure you don't care for condescension, whether or not you're running for POTUS. You'll get enough of it in your 50s-plus to remember and think back on any earlier instances when you personally discriminated on that basis, and it might not be pretty to see your self in the rear-view mirror.

I hope this helps you better understand my remarks. You mightn't agree, but I'm not going to backpedal on them.

[KansDem]

89. "You'll get enough of it in your 50s-plus to remember"

Funny...I'm 55.

I do think it ironic that McCain plans to garner support from outraged seniors if the Dems resort to "age issues" against him (incidentally, I'm in agreement with you on this point--there's plenty the Dems can use against McCain without referring to his age or military record), while McCain plans to use Obama's age against him (too young).

Ironic...and hypocritical.

[Raejeanowl]

6. This Is Absolutely Correct

As tempting as it might be to take the easy, cheap shots at McCain and attack him as old, failing, feeble, senile, and irrelevant, we do have to stop and think exactly what we are engaging in....PREJUDICE and AGEISM.

Can we police ourselves to stick to the issues and performance-based critiques and not indulge our own weaknesses by resorting to beating up on elders?

[IndyOp]

10. I think you've nailed it -- it is easier to slam his age, than to

do research about his policies and poor behavior. What we need to put forth are all of the anecdotes about McCain's behavior that will make EVERYONE think - this guy has been unstable throughout his life.

[rocktivity]

35. I would think that George Bush himself would be living proof

that you don't have to be in your seventies to engage in "failing, feeble, and senile" behavior.

I was proud to cast a vote for 86-year-old Frank Lautenberg for New Jersey Senator. And I was happy to learn that West Virginia's 91-year-old Robert Byrd has recovered from an infection. However, those men have something that Reagan didn't, and that Bush and McCain don't have--ample evidence that they are still of sound mind.

Of course we should not consider someone to be mentally unfit merely because he's old. But McCain has exhibited indisputable signs of http://www.jedreport.com/2008/06/brutal.html">early dementia--which, like it or not, IS tied to advanced age.

:headbang:
rocknation

[IndyOp]

45. I like your Lautenberg and Byrd examples. McCain's confusion could be linked

to his PTSD or to Ambien or to other health issues that could strike younger or older people.

Also, if Pedialyte is not available and if mom is dehydrated, sick, or missing then why wouldn't a dehydrated baby be given hot water? I tried Googling this but I think we'd need a source like American Pediatric Society // United Nations that knows what might need to be done during a major emergency. I thought the specificity with which McCain mentioned "hot water" as opposed to "water" suggested that someone on his campaign knew something legitimate about treating dehydration.

:shrug:

[rocktivity]

55. I've checked out a couple of child-rearing sites

And they all say that while water is okay for dehydrated toddlers, babies should receive liquids with electrolytes (such as Pedialyte), infant formula, and breast milk and only be SUPPLEMENTED with plain water, regardless of its temperature.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_dehydration_11407.bc

:headbang:
rocknation

[IndyOp]

67. Fair enough. This is still a site for people living in modern circumstances -

not in the midst of a natural disaster. In the case of a national emergency, Pedialyte should be on the first pallets dropped to the survivors in large groups. If dropping supplies from helicopters onto rooftops, then water in bottles that have something like a nipple on them might make sense. I don't know - I am not in emergency management.

I guess I am still giving McCain the benefit of the doubt here because no President will be in charge of handling a national emergency so I don't expect them to know details. The President will be in charge of appointing a person with experience, with demonstrated competence in handling emergencies -- and that I do NOT trust McCain to do.

Bill Clinton found a very good man in James Lee Witt ( http://www.wittassociates.com/1127.xml ) and I trust Obama to do a good job as well.

[Raejeanowl]

53. I Like Your Examples

But that early dementia-advanced age connection sounds like an oxymoron...maybe advancing age?

[rocktivity]

59. Absolutely right. I will use the term "ADVANCING age" from now on. n/t

:headbang:
rocknation

[izquierdista]

8. Presidents over 70

Nelson Mandela, inaugurated at age 75

[IndyOp]

12. I almost included him in my list of people I'd like to have in my committee

Presidency - but it occurred to me that he wasn't born in the U.S. and that he has pretty adamantly RETIRED so he can enjoy his family.

Have you seen this site: http://theelders.org/

:hi:

[napi21]

9. I don't believe there would be a senior backlash. I'm 64 and I KNOW

I couldn't handle being President! I realize there are differences in people, but I think most seniors are rational enough to realize they couldnt handle the job either.

[Raejeanowl]

20. I'm Younger Than You And I Couldn't Either

But that is me. Hasn't a damn thing to do with my age, but my health, energy, inclinations, lack of specific talents(!), passions, etc.

I've worked for a 70+ female politician who could have run rings around Obama and left him in the dust. Seriously.

Folks, you've got to get the age out of the equation. IT ISN'T FAIR TO SENIORS - IT IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF AGE DISCRIMINATION.

"Most seniors are rational enough?" What a loaded comment. You bet your ass, they are.

But if McCain can't and doesn't realize it, his judgment isn't failing him just because he's old!

[IndyOp]

22. I put the potential senior voter backlash 4th or 5th on my list -

because it is only part of what I am concerned about. I put it in the title of my thread because I wanted people to read the thread and posters at DU are motivated to read threads that have immediate election consequences.

I am younger than Obama but I have no idea where he gets his ENERGY - so I tend to think of him as a "nice young man". I wouldn't run for the office because I don't have the energy or experience or wisdom. So I think I get where you are coming from in terms of knowing that I couldn't handle the job as compared to Obama.

Still, I think there is more going on when we slam McCain for his age than just potential voter backlash. I am 43 years old and I teach at a Big 10 University and I can often feel overloaded with the "youth superiority" vibe that emanates from my students. I want us to all look beyond age when assessing a potential candidate.

:hi:

[Eurobabe]

76. My mom says the same thing and she is 67

She says there is no WAY she could handle that job. Mom says "job best left to the young folk."

:shrug:

[Fleshdancer]

11. I just wish he would act his age

His ridiculous temper tantrums and name calling completely takes away from the elder statesman quality that he should possess at this point. I wish people would call him on this.

[IndyOp]

23. Now THAT is a reasonable point -

Phrasing arguments in terms of McCain's emotional and social immaturity -- focusing on specific instances of poor behavior - could be a very strong frame. It would absolutely weaken him in the eyes of everyone.

[XemaSab]

13. My grandma (who is 80)

says he's WAAAY too old to be president.

She knows about being in pain, being forgetful, being tired, and just plain being out of touch with the younger generation. :shrug:

[IndyOp]

27. Your grandma's experience is uniquely hers -- it is not the experience of all

people who are that age or older.

I am a fairly old 43-year-old -- I couldn't possibly do what Obama is doing. Then again, I know that there are some 70-something year olds who could run rings around Obama -- it depends on the individual.

:hi:

[XemaSab]

34. It really does depend on the individual

But at the same time, if someone's fading on the campaign trail, the voters should be aware of that and make their own decisions.

[glowing]

15. The one thing that bothered me with Obama was not with Obama, but with the

rabid followers who would do anything to tear down an opponet... Obama has pushed this message of unity and healing and listening and working together... young and old, men and women, gay and straight, white and black and all the shades in between... I think we need to remember this..

I knew what I was like at 18 and 19 and 20 and 21.. and then I left college and paid bills and learned that life is hard and have gained some wisdom.. but I was willing to recieve my lessons because I always had the respect and admiration for my grandmother and my mother and my aunt.. who had seen and experienced so much time and history pass betweent their eyes.. but I was also there to teach them.. to say awe grandma they're not called negros anymore. and awe mom, so what if they are gay, are they hurting you? So.. we each have value and we must recognize this and move forward.

[Raejeanowl]

29. There's A Great Quote Somewhere

Regarding seeing the past and the future through the mirror of each other's eyes?

I think it's great you had this with your folks. And I applaud you for pointing out how we need to keep elders in the equation-even if that includes acknowledging (grudgingly for some) that certain 70+ individuals could be perfectly capable of carrying out the duties of the presidency.

To say otherwise, i.e., young and old, and qualify it with-as long as it's not my idea of too old for higher office or public service in general-smacks of "separate but equal."

[glowing]

70. I question mostly McCain, his policies, his lack of empathy with women,

his stance on this war.. I disagree with his policies.. and I am worried for his health.. He's had serious bouts of melanoma 3 times in regards to his face. VP selection this year is the mos watched position in both parties.. and for this nation.

[FlaGranny]

16. As a senior myself,

only a couple of years younger than McCain, I KNOW that I am not as sharp as I was 20 years ago. No doubt about it. My IQ is just fine, I have no dementia, but I am slower. I have more aches and pains and I sometimes find word retrieval harder than it used to be. I do see these things as a liability in a president. I don't know one person around my age who is as sharp as they were when they were 50 or so. Anyone who is of a certain age knows this to be true. Of course we have some wonderful, brilliant older folks in the country and the world in their 80s and 90s, and I'll bet not one of them would claim to be getting better with age. You are right that age itself should not be used against McCain, but his duplicity and confusion are fair game as is his nastiness, and all of these things will get worse as he does age - your true personality emerges when you get old (sort of like it does when you drink too much) because older people have a way of not caring so much about how others view them like younger people do.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. As a senior citizen, I couldn't care less.

I'm all in favor of a mandatory retirement age for the presidency.

[madwivoter]

18. I'm convinced. John McNasty it is.

[IndyOp]

57. To John McNasty.

:toast:

:hi:

[Adelante]

19. A million thanks for your OP

Besides being cheap and wrong, it makes no sense to alienate voters from Obama. It's just dumb.

[Avalux]

21. I beg to differ with your argument.

My parents both tell me that they know what their bodies and minds have become as senior citizens; don't want someone McCain's age in there because they don't think he can handle the rigors of the presidency.

I imagine a lot of elderly people would look at the "age factor" with the same perspective.

[IndyOp]

30. The Presidency has to be the most exhausting job in the nation -

and I think it is reasonable for people to be concerned about any candidate's health, ability to concentrate, social intelligence...

If we have a conversation about McCain's behaviors and abilities -- his health, his temperament, his ability to relate with diverse citizens -- those are all fair game. They are all important. I imagine that a lot of elderly people and young people would have HUGE doubts about McCain if all of the facts are put on the table about him. What we want, at the end of the conversation, is for people to be able to make their decision for Obama and against McCain without having to rely on "age" being a factor against McCain.

Holding a banner of "OLD" overhead while having these conversations diminishes us all.

Nelson Mandela was not elected until he turned 75...


Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama is older than John McCain and has served as leader of government and faith...

[DuaneBidoux]

25. My own father (age 72), a republican, doubts McCain only because of his age.

I've talked to my dad, he has voted republican virtually his entire life except for when Dole ran, when he didn't vote at all because he thought Dole was too old.

He says: "what I know about how I feel and deal with the world and have dealt with it as I have gotten older (naps, etc.) he says he can not imagine anyone being his age being able to stand the presidency.

Let me ask: is it wrong to point out that a 50 year old man is too old to play professional football? If nothing else, the stamina required for the job makes it increasingly difficult to do the job well as one gets older.

The average president looks 20 years older on exiting the office. Good god what would that do to a man that will be 72 when taking the office?

[TexasObserver]

28. His age IS an issue with many voters, including OLD ones.

See, that's where your theory falls apart. OLD people are more concerned about Grampy McCain's age than anyone.

[IndyOp]

37. The "research" I included above includes what I know about the

IAT research about ageism and Chris Bowers' opinion piece "McCain Aims For Age Backlash Among Seniors."

The rest of the post is my opinion and it wasn't an epic fail -- I've had several exchanges with DUers on this thread that I value -- including someone with a Che Guevara avatar who pointed out that Nelson Mandela wasn't elected President until he turned 75.

Age is an issue with older voters - I am sure you are right about that. The next question I would ask, though, is why it is an issue - and that takes me back to what I mentioned in my post - our culture is a cesspool of ageist messages. The IAT research I cited above indicate that a majority of older people hold anti-elderly stereotypes, it isn't just the young who dismiss and denigrate the elderly. (Similarly, over half of African Americans demonstrate a anti-black, pro-white preference on the IAT.)

Why would a group of people hold negative stereotypes about themselves and what is society's part in this? Should we hammer "Grampy McCain" if we think that will repulse voters and get them to vote for Obama? In my opinion -- no -- we should take the high road and pull voters away from McCain by telling them the truth about his personality and behavior and plans.

Peace.

:hug:

On Edit: TexasObserver has edited the post to which this post is a reply - they had charged that my research was poor and that my post was an "epic fail".

[TexasObserver]

40. Why can't you accept that age matters?

I don't care how bright a person is, that doesn't mean he or she is competent to be president. I do not want anyone over 70 to be president for the simple reason that old people are out of it too much. They lack the mental skills they had years earlier. They have peaked and are not at their best.

Running the country should be done by people in their 40s and 50s, people who aren't so old they can't relate to the young.

The term "ageism" is malarkey. People decline as they get old. That's a fact. It's mainly because some of our citizens cannot accept that they are OLD, and they consider it ageist to observe that old people are running out of gas and lack the abilities they once had. Most people who wail about ageism are women who simply cannot accept the fact that they're old and no longer have all the skills and attributes they once had. Men grow older much more gracefully than women in our culture, because men are more accepting of the truth that means about them.

AGE matters. Anyone over 60 should know their best days are behind them, not in front of them. They should know they're getting weaker, not stronger. They should know that it's time for the next generation to be in charge.

[IndyOp]

52. Age matters. Okay.

Anything good about getting older? At all? Just getting closer to death? Death sure will be a relief after all of those years of getting weaker and weaker. ;-)

Motor skills decline at different rates in different individuals. Mental skills that relate to reasoning and one's broad base of knowledge steadily increase through life right on up into the 70's. (I can dig a reference out of a textbook for you if you would like).

Running the country should be done by people in the 40s and 50s, people who aren't so old they can't relate to the young.

OMG! Here are Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky alienating the young'uns now:
?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939057D9939C83F10658E46D927D70E28B5A5397277B4DC33E









Men grow older much more gracefully than women in our culture. Hmmm, got any links to research on that? My relevant knowledge includes the fact that when an older woman dies her husband is at much greater risk of depression and death than is an older woman whose husband has died. Why? Women tend to do a better job at creating a variety of social interconnections that sustain them throughout life. Men are much more likely to fall into a depression if they lose a job, women are more resilient in the face of job loss and when they retire.

The term "ageism" is malarky. No, it isn't. Stereotypes are beliefs we hold about other people based on the group(s) that a person belongs to. I hold certain negative stereotypes about Texans that I am working right now to ignore as I interact with you - to be fair to you, an individual, who may not have the negative traits I ascribe to Texans. My overall stereotypes about Texans might be wrong or they might be right -- but whether or not my beliefs are right about an entire population does not mean that they will be right about a particular individual -- you, one person, TexasObserver. I should give you the benefit of the doubt, right?

Have you tried taking the Implicit Association Test online? It is an eye-opening experience.

Select a test -- try the "Age IAT" as well as at least one other: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/selectatest.html
If the link above doesn't work, try this one: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

A very cool organization - The Elders - world leaders who no longer need ego or power and so can courageously tell the truth that most people in power won't - http://theelders.org/

I think we should respect people of all ages for the gifts they bring -- the energy and honesty and creativity of youth, the confidence and competency of middle age, and the wisdom and selflessness of the elderly.

:hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya: :hug: :loveya:

[Raejeanowl]

62. What You Said x2 n/t

[Raejeanowl]

60. And I Don't Care How Young And Vigorous They Are

That doesn't make them competent to be president, either. And then to add insult to injury, you throw in sexism and a few more sweeping generalizations.

Why can't YOU accept that what you're saying is dripping with bigotry and prejudice?

[Raejeanowl]

46. And Would They Be Uncle Toms With Walkers?

Where'd you get YOUR statistics to back up this sweeping, generalized assertion? Even if you had included a link to a survey, would it necessarily make it any less prejudicial, unless you knew exactly what questions were asked, and of whom?

If we were talking about a handicapped candidate, would you be citing the handicap (he's just a helpless cripple) as the reason they couldn't do the job (one you don't want them to have anyway, for other reasons), or invoking the concerns of other persons who have disabilities as justification to disqualify the candidate out of hand? Or would you be attempting to ask yourself instead, can they fulfill the requirements of the job?

Performance failure can happen at any age, including failure to see distinctions or be fair. Which is why we have anti-discrimination laws.

The argument against McCain should and does stand without false props. The OPS point was stop using AGE to shore it up. That's just ageism, even if it comes from "you old people."

[panAmerican]

31. It's true. First generation American/Naturalized Americans like me are keenly aware of the ageism...

against McCain. It's just not cool to knock someone because of his age or disabilities. As funny as it may seem to some of your ears, it is just as offensive as the anti-immigrant sentiments of people like the Minute Men.

Aren't many people here in IT? If so, you should be quite aware of how age isn't a techie's friend.

[IndyOp]

77. What country are your parents from? What positive traits of elderly are seen

in that culture?

I think that our culture just doesn't see the bias we have and doesn't understand how it negatively impacts us all. More respect for the elderly would lead to national policies that would help everyone. Countries that provide nursing home care to all citizens that need it take a HUGE burden off the shoulders of the elderly, off of the shoulders of working adults who elderly parents need care, off of the shoulders of grandchildren who need time and attention from their working parents and their grandparents.

[NatBurner]

32. mccain jokes about it himself

[IndyOp]

38. NatB - Individiduals are allowed to joke about themselves, but if others join in it can be a problem

I am allowed to joke about the traits I perceive as weaknesses in myself, but I would be hurt - in many cases - if others joined in.

If my 68-year-old friend jokes about her age and her older sister joins in that is okay, but I don't join in because I am 30 years younger and it would be perceived in a really different way.

If Gore Vidal or anyone older than John McCain rips McCain on his age then that isn't so bad, but if we do then it will be perceived by many as an unfair, disrespectful, ignorant* attack.

*I use "ignorant" after some careful thought - because ignorant is without knowledge and youth is sometimes lacking in knowledge about the power of wisdom.

Peace.

[NatBurner]

44. damn u and your logic

i'll try to refrain, but i'm only human-

and grampy is just so lyrical

no promises, but i'll try

[IndyOp]

56. NatBurner - you are fair thinker. Thanks. :-) (n/t)

[RichardRay]

33. My 86 year old mother KNOWS McCain shouldn't be president

She has her 'senior moments' and is careful about them. She sees similar behavior from John McCain and is aghast at the idea that he might be president. OTOH, she expects respect (and gets it from me, you damn betcha :-) and would feel slighted by some of the age related comments made here at DU.

I think his age and capabilities are fair game, but have to be addressed with a little less vitriol.

[IndyOp]

48. Respect - that is the key. Having these conversations in a way that makes

clear to everyone listening that we respect the elderly and want to see more of the same throughout our nation.

I've supported Obama for quite a while and I still felt personally beaten up by the woman-bashing comments in the media -- thankfully the majority of that crap was on FOX, but a few nasty comments emanated from CNN and MSNBC.

Our elderly - and all of us who will someday be old - deserve better than the types of comments I am seeing on DU and elsewhere in the blogosphere.

I think that talking about his age is a "short-hand" crutch -- if we talk about specific instances of his poor behavior and inconsistent statements we will have a much bigger, longer lasting impact on what people think about him.

:hi:

[crankychatter]

36. I feel the same way about his military service - but I have questions RE his mental health

PTSD and rage-a-holism

[IndyOp]

39. Questions about his temperament and health are 100% relevant. (n/t)

[Drunken Irishman]

41. I think most older people believe McCain is too old to be president.

72 is old, ok. I don't care what anyone says, it's an important issue. It's an issue because there's probably better than a 50% chance McCain does not serve a 2nd term and whomever he chooses as VP has a far better probability of succeeding him mid-presidency than the guy (or gal) Obama picks. That is a concern more than anything and it can't be dismissed.

[PoliticalAmazon]

103. ITA. I have two Republican friends--the #1 reason they reject McCain is his age....

Only after "age" do they give as a reason "too much like Bush."

[windoe]

42. I agree, while mental clarity and temper are definite issues. n/t

[Beregond2]

43. All the seniors I know (and there are plenty) are the FIRST

to say he is too old to be running for president. They understand from first-hand experience the limitations their age places on their energy and abilities. It isn't ageism to face the realities of getting older, any more than it is racism to suggest that black people probably don't make the most effective spokespeople for sunscreen.

[loyalsister]

47. Thanks for this

Despite objections above, I think you have done a great job of pointing out that the reason it is wrong to denigrate age is it is a stereotype like any other.

Certainly, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that would run contrary to the original claim that seniors don't appreciate being stereotyped.

However, what it reminds me of those stories heard about
How "they" would rather be "with each other" in their own schools.
Or how "they" can't handle work outside the home because of chronic absenses to pregnancy and all of the complications that go along with it.

Specifics related to a person are one thing, specifics related to a "they" or a "them" are another.

That is what happens when with generalizations about MCain's age. Especially since that level of age hopefully applies to all of us - eventually.

[IndyOp]

49. Good points. Thanks. (n/t)

[Kokonoe]

50. Also be careful not to say "hes losing his bearings"

It sets off the McCain camp.:shrug:

[IndyOp]

54. If we aren't careful we will all be losing our bear-lings...

:(

[OzarkDem]

58. Very true

There's a downside to attracting the youth vote - their immaturity, self-centeredness and lack of experience. In the exuberance of primary victory, these traits can become contagious.

But they never work in convincing voters to support Democrats. We're held to a higher standard of accountability and civility than our GOP counterparts.

[cap]

61. start looking ADEA law and then you'll understand why we cant use the word gramps

and we can't really consider health issues except in a few occupations and the Presidency is one of them.

[EFerrari]

63. Good thinking and great post. K&R

[IndyOp]

79. Thanks sfexpat2000! (n/t)

[Recursion]

64. I'm more concerned about his health

And I say this as somebody who has a grudging personal admiration for the guy. I hate to put it this bluntly, but I don't think he could survive a term.

[IndyOp]

73. Health is important, but none of us is guaranteed tomorrow.

And health is important - and McCain has a scary personal history with cancer and PTSD.

Still - our decisions and messages should be about his behavior and his plans.

If we can't make an argument in favor of Obama as the best candidate for this job - best prepared, most fit in terms of skills and temperament and plans - then we haven't made a strong enough case for Obama.

[nsd]

65. Okay, you've convinced me.

Very good points.

[IndyOp]

80. Thank you! (n/t)

[SeaLyons]

66. This is a great post.

I agree wholeheartely. McCain should be judged for the issues, not his age.

[olkaz]

68. I agree, but you almost lost me with Emil Jones

Many of us in downstate Illinois do NOT like him at all.

It was a massive struggle for me personally to support Obama when I learned of how influenced he has been by Jones.

Ugh.

[IndyOp]

81. Uh-oh. Sorry. Influence goes both ways -

I'll certainly hope that Obama has lifted up Mr. Jones. I don't know anything about Illinois politics, but I am just finishing reading "Audacity of Hope" and I highly recommend it if you are seeking a solid, unfiltered source of information about Obama.

:hi:

[Heather MC]

69. My grandmother is 95. She is always cracking jokes about OLD people

the funny thing is most of the people she talks about are 30 years younger than her!
she calls JM "that old man" :rofl:

She earned the right
she is a biracial woman, who people that's was Oriental years ago, I think she has earned he right to crack jokes on whomever she choses.
Oh and she still drives! She's amazing.

[IndyOp]

75. Your grandmother sounds like a blast... :-)

At age 95 she is licensed to call anyone she wants to on anything she wants to call them on --> :D

[cottonseed]

71. Yes, but it looks like it's a joke that's made it out to pop culture.

McCain's age is a nightly punch line for late night talk shows. Any comedian, Saturday Night live, and surely radio talk show hosts will joke about it. As a political strategy, yes it should be handled delicately, but it's out there. McCain is old.

[IndyOp]

74. It is out there - no doubt. We can't - just the few thousand of us - change

the larger culture. We can refuse to be drawn in, we can refuse to repeat the jokes or to laugh when someone else tells them, or to post funny graphics on DU with tag lines that all relate to McCain's age.

What comedians say won't appear on FOX news or in McCain campaign commercials that accuse Obama's campaign or supporters on "liberal blogs" with hating the elderly. I can just imagine the screen shot now -- on CNN or MSNBC or FOX -- showing DU or DailyKos posts making fun of McCain's age and we appear immature, seeming not to know why we support Obama beyond pointing and laughing at McCain's stooped posture.

McCain's age will be discussed, no doubt -- let's do it respectfully, seriously, as befits well-informed citizens of a democracy.

[cottonseed]

82. Point taken.

I agree. We've got so much more to offer than pounding away at the guy's age. I would however, like to make sure that McCain's imaging/branding doesn't turn him into a younger more innocent man (sometimes it seems I see more photos of him as a young man in uniform then the guy he is today). All said, I agree with you.

[DevonRex]

72. I agree. If McCain has problems as a result of his age, they will

be readily apparent and can be pointed out by simply stating the facts that he got wrong.

Many people of his generation are leaning towards the right and we must not push them further.

My elderly in-laws have always voted democratic but may have a slight, um, problem with a black man in the White House. We must give them a chance to hear the issues and understand what is at stake. If we push the age thing, they'll stop listening completely.

[IndyOp]

78. Your elderly in-laws are an excellent example of folks to whom we should

be reaching out. I think Obama will do well to emphasize the mentoring relationships he has had with older people -- he has to clearly state he does possess the judgment needed to make final decisions and that his good judgment comes, in part, from listening to elders and experts.

:hi:

[DevonRex]

83. You are so right. I also think that having someone like Clark

on board in some capacity will help with other issues, too. For some reason many, many elderly democrats in Florida got all those disgusting emails regarding patriotism, the Pledge, and other things. They are very proud of America's involvement in WW2 especially, and a gray-haired general would go a long way to counteract that kind of BS spam they get in their email.

While they're very bright people and generally well informed, they grew up in a world without spam, without that sick rightwing attack machine, and are generally pretty trusting. I hesitate to say they're gullible because I don't want to be condescending. So I think trusting is the word we should use.

[PoliticalAmazon]

84. It's a valid criticism. McCain often seems confused and befuddled....

These are valid concerns about the appropriateness of a candidate for a very important and VERY difficult job.

[IndyOp]

86. Confused is a problem at any age so address particular instances of

confusion and why it is troubling. You can leave age out of the discussion entirely, get your message across about why McCain is not a good candidate, and avoid alienating people who will feel insulted on behalf of older Americans.

Peace.

[PoliticalAmazon]

87. We will have to disagree on this one. n/t

[IndyOp]

91. Fair enough. (n/t)

[Mimosa]

88. I AGREE: Seniors vote in way larger numbers! And are sensitive about age issues.

Attacking McCain on age is a huge mistake. Even baby boomers are sensitive about age.

[Mimosa]

90. McSame or Bush Lite might be best?

I tend to call McCain 'McSame'. But we do need to stay away from Gramps. In fact many of us liked our grandfathers!

[IndyOp]

92. All comparisons of McCain & Tush are fair. ;-) (n/t)

[Uncle Joe]

93. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, IndyOp.:thumbsup:

[IndyOp]

94. Thank you Uncle Joe -- it is great to run into you again and may I add, as I always do,

you have an exceptionally good avatar.

:thumbsup:

I still wear the "Gore 2008" t-shirt and sweatshirt. If anyone asks about it, I tell them I'll be updating it as the years progress:

Gore 2009
Gore 2010
Gore 2011
Gore 2012
...

:hi:

[Uncle Joe]

96. It's good to see you as well, IndyOp

and although I'm not wearing any Dali Lamma for President T-Shirts, I feel high regard for him as well.:thumbsup:

Peace to you.

:hi:

[enough]

95. His age will be an issue AND we should stop denigrating him because of his age.

This is a very thoughtful and useful post, Indyop.

Most elderly people are well aware of the ways in which they have declined. They also know that people age differently. They can watch McCain and see that he is an "old" 71, and not particularly sharp or energetic. This will happen naturally.

Your other points about the ways in which denigrating the elderly is bad for all of us are all very true. Also, it's NOT the OBAMA WAY! We want everyone, young and old, and we want them to respect each other.

The great thing is, all of this can happen.

[IndyOp]

97. Yes. You've said it very well. Thank you. (n/t)

[totodeinhere]

98. I agree 1000%.

We Democrats should take a stand against all "isms" and that includes ageism. God knows that there are enough legitimate issues to get McCain on. We don't need to emphasize his age.

[NC_Nurse]

99. I agree completely with your assessment. We need to stop bashing ANY

candidate for who they are - white, black, old, young, rich, poor, etc.
Stick with Character and Agenda - that's fine.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

100. It could be used against us now

calling him Fossil and the likes! I think we will stick with McBushCain.

[IndyOp]

101. Agreed - lots of specific comparisons to Bush will be deadly. (n/t)

[Rosa Luxemburg]

102. that's why they are hiding Bush!

[Willo]

104. I'm glad you mentioned this Indy

I've not been comfortable with the age attacks against McCain.

I wonder how long these people stood in line to see Obama.

[IndyOp]

105. !

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:hug:

[DeepModem Mom]

106. I had considered the "ageist" aspect of this issue, but not the voting backlash possibility.

Thanks for this post -- K&R.