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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:11 PM
Original message
Moveon stuck cleaning up the mess..........
Left by the non-reaction to the swift boats ads. And what does Kerry do? He denounces moveon's ad. Wow, what a winning stategy. Didn't we go though this fight before. If Kerry didn't want to win the election, why didn't he just drop out in Iowa. This is what happens when you let lying criminal thugs run outrageous ads and then go two weeks saying NOTHING. I sure hope moveon can save the campaign. They CAN'T BACK OUT NOW. We had a winning stategey, it was called FIGHT BACK. What happened? I just hope moveon understands that they can't stop now. Keep running the ad.
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Reminds me of the Clark/Moore "deserter" controversy.
Moore called Dubya a deserter (which, technically he was) and when given an opportunity to turn his back on MM, Clark just smiled and said nothing.

I gained a lot of respect for Wes after that.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Yeah it's pathetic.
If they win this election it will be in spite of theirselves. this makes me feel like when the bully chased you home and you tried to run in the house and your father stood in the door and said, "If you don't kick his ass, I'm going to kick yours". The base is getting the role of the father. "Pick up your fist and use it". why is that so hard to understand." Nobody respects a wimp.
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David Dunham Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. That destroyed Clark
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. No, it didn't. That's just what Bill O'Reilly says (nt)
nt
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dennis4868 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. Yep....
General Clark took a bullet for all of us that day!
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kerry's strategy was brilliant....
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 07:15 PM by charlyvi
He played good cop to Moveon.org's bad cop; he made bush* look small and petty because he refuses to do the honorable thing by not denouncing the SwiftVet's ad, and he also reminded everyone that McCain--a Repub convention speaker---denounced the ad. He came off looking like an adult in comparison to the petulant child that bush* resembles.
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I agree
Kerry is using the 'winning strategy'. :thumbsup:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Your assuming the American people are capable of complex thoughts
NOT.........They need it simple. Real simple......
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Quite the opposite, good cop/bad cop relies on people's gullibility
and emotional responses.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. Americans ARE capable of complex thought.
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 07:28 PM by charlyvi
Why do you think Kerry is ahead in the polls; and, most particularly, in Ohio which isn't exactly a hotbed of liberalism. The SwiftVet ad has been running there, and GALLUP now has him ahead. It has backfired; it doesn't take complex thinking to recognize when a veteran's character is being smeared. Repubs can't have it both ways; they can't honor military service and then agree with ads that trash the very same service they honor.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
63. If you saw that CNN crowd CHEER the ahole who
snarked about Kerry serving only four months in Vietman, you might think differently

that was awful

and to show the crowd wasn't biased, at least a whole lot, the BOOED the CRAP out of the pugliar at the end, when he tried to tell them how great the chimp;s education plan is

the response on Kerry's vietnam service was chilling, though
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. That's it. Agree.
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I agree and Moveon probably agrees...
That was the perfect move by Kerry.
Bush is an even bigger asshole now that Kerry was the adult here denouncing the ad.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. More DLC chess game nonsense (Questions for all)
Too clever by half.

Question: what is the expected vote gain from this clever strategy?

Question: what is the expected vote loss from not having a strong response to the swift vets?

Question: what is the expected loss of votes from Kerry openly dissing Moveon.org, one of his strongest supporting groups?

Question: how much would the Moveon ads (which are true, unlike the swift vet ads) have damaged Bush had Kerry not openly condemned them?

Question: does this add up to a net gain or loss?

Question: isn't this the same chess game strategy applied in 2000 and 2002?

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. more reactionary political novice nonsense
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 08:02 PM by wyldwolf
Matthews answered these on his show with a new poll. Panel agreed Kerry looked more mature than Bush in this matter. Swiftboat vets ad has done very little damage.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Bull
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 08:07 PM by sampsonblk
A clip on Chris Matthews has sovled this issue for you? Do you believe what you see or see what you believe?

And everyone who disagree with this crap is a novice? I think not. We sure could have used some "novices" in 2000 and 2002. The know-it-alls struck out pretty bad.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Bull
Your own rambling and slam of the DLC has solved this issue for you?
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
57. Whatever
If your "argument" had the slightest bit of merit, I would debate it with you. It sounds like your point, such that it is, is all about me, and not facts related to the campaign. Try someone else for that garbage.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
66. well if you want to talk "facts"
Prove your statement, "More DLC chess game nonsense."

..or try someone else for that garbage.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #30
67. Call Kerry and tell HIM
I guess he forgot to watch Chris Matthews.

I accept your apology as well as your admission that you were wrong.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #28
40. We're Democrats....
We're supposed to be clever.

Okay....

Answer: We gain swing voters....thoughtful swing voters. Ohio, for
example. (Kerry's up in Ohio now)

Answer: We lose the voters that believe the SwiftVet ads--do you
really think we had Kerry basher votes anyway?

Answer: We don't lose votes because Kerry dissed the ad--not Moveon-- but the ad itself. Kerry wants to be president of all the
people, not just us rabid dems. His comments make him look
Presidential, not just someone who caters to his base (remind
you of someone?)

Answer: The Moveon ad still runs--people still see it. Kerry's
remarks are kind of like a judge who tells the jury
to ignore what they've just seen and heard--they CAN'T.
It's still out there.

Answer: This ads up to a net gain.

I don't know anything about chess games. Just common sense.
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sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
59. I hope your math is right
I don't agree with all your answers. But if it works, fine. From where I am sitting, it looks like too much cleverness. I hope the base of this party sees it your way and not mine.
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vickie Donating Member (663 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Kerry's reaction was absolutely perfect. Moveon can apply the
smackdown to the sanctimonious hypocrites. Kerry remains the classy adult, gentleman and war hero above the fray. It couldn't have been better.
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buycitgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
64. unfortunately, his reaction, and the moveon response, was ....
too late, as it reinforced in LOTS of peoples' minds the idea that Kerry, at the very LEAST, is overplaying his Nam hand

did you see Olberman tonight?

HE had a PA poll that asserted the ad to be VERY damaging

it's coming on right now

gonna tape it, cause some knowitall said I was WRONG WRONG, as if I made it up

check it out

NOW!
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Like Malloy said last night
it's up to us activists to do the fighting back
in the mud with these bozos.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. It's been up to us for awhile and we've done a damn good job.
Congrats to US. But the least they can do is back us up. this fight is going to get really nasty now. We can't lose under any circumstances. Time to give moveon all our support.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. good cop/bad cop
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. exactly
I think this was coordinated in advance.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Why are you making a totally baseless charge of lawbreaking?
If you are going to accuse someone of breaking the law without any factual basis, I think you should target some Republican.

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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. What makes you think Kerry doesn't want to win the election?
His "denunciation" of the moveon ad was perfect. By merely commenting on it, he got word of it in the mainstream media, so now Bush's service is an issue, too. Plus, he looks more presidential than Bush, because Bush refused to condemn the Swift Boat Liars ad. I think you missed the strategy here. Kerry didn't actually call for the ad to be piulled - he merely said the election should be about issues, not insults.
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I like Kerry's strategy but Bush has to be pressured
to either admit that he is behind the Swift Boat Liars for Bush ad or denounce it.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. Also, Kerry now has gotten the point across...
that he will defend ALL vets--even the ones that trash him. This matters to a vet. He acted honorably whereas the President* did not--PERFECT.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Good point, charlyvi!
A little nuance I didn't get before.

It's called the high road and I'm sure Moveon.org is fine with it all.

I guess we could ask them.. http://www.moveon.org
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. What about moveon. Are we suppose to sacifice them?
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 07:30 PM by Joanne98
No way. I'm standing behind moveon. they can't pull the ad. Kerry just has to ride this out. It wasn't co-ordinated. I think the Kerry camp is going to ask them to pull the ad. As a member I say NO.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. No No No
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 07:40 PM by charlyvi
We don't sacrifice them----they keep running the ad. Don't you see? Kerry did not tell them to stop; he can't to that. I'd bet a whole month's salary that Moveon knew this would happen and they are fine with it. Moveon is in the trenches--Kerry must own the high ground; he cannot indulge in smear tactics. If he does that, Karl Rove has won. We can fight them tit for tat though, and so can Moveon. To each person his allotted task. Get it?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
16. You do know Zack from MoveOn is on Kerry's campaign, right?
He's advising on his internet strategy. Now, there can be no collusion between the campaign and a 527, but MoveOn did telegraph through the media that they'd respect Kerry's wishes if he thought the ad should be muzzled.

The strategy makes Kerry look very Presidential and he challenged Dimson to do the same with the Swift Boat Liars. W can continue to take the low road and wallow...in which case, Kerry will continue to remind him that only scumbags use these cowardly tactics.... or W can follow Kerry's lead. Neither choice makes him look particularly good.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. I didn't know that! We'll there ya go!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I want moveon to stand their ground
Swift boats are lying scum. why should we back down. It just makes us look like WE were lying. I'm tired of getting run over. I care about moveon. It will hurt them to back down now. Keep running the ad.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I gotta go. I'm in the middle of a thunder storm.
I'll be back. I SUPPORT MOVEON 100%.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. Sure, MoveOn can do whatever they want!
That's the beauty of it. Kerry got to play the good guy and wise stateman. But he can't make MoveOn take the ads down (:-)). I'm sure they'll probably keep them going as long as the SB Liars keep theirs up.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
25. I haven't heard anything
about them removing the ad.

Noooo I don't want it removed. I like these hard hitting ads. People still don't know the truth.

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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. After watching Hardball, I have a bad feeling about the slow response
to the swift boat ad. While the MoveOn ad is dynamite, and it makes Bush* look like an asshole, the slow response almost makes it seem like a wash. (MoveOn should not soften it) Also the battle of words about troop deployment seems to be one that is hard for Kerry to fight. I feel that Bush* got the upper hand in the last few days on the war-military issue even while the MoveOn ad is going to sting him. Denouncing the ad may have helped on "gaining high ground", but the Bush* people are dirty, and they keep on trashing Kerry. I don't know if its working. Look at the polls. Maybe people don't like negative ads. It just seems like Bush* is winning this "battle"
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Don't judge anything by Hardball....
Everyone I know, libs or repubs, hate the show---they think Tweety is SOOOOOOO rude. Bear in mind all the ideas shrub* has thrown out there to change the subject from Kerry, the economy, Iraq etc. The few I can think of are Mars, gay marriage amendment; anyway, they give him a small bounce then nothing. If bush* keeps on trashing Kerry this badly until November, I think it will backfire. Really, I think people will ask themselves why is it more important to these morons to trash someone else rather than build themselves up. Could it be that they have nothing to build themselves up with? See what I mean?
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. I see what you are saying. Lets hope all this negative stuff backfires.
As I have said several times, PA rejected the candidates who used purely negative ads in the last few years.

But on this military deployment/war in Iraq decision/swiftboat stuff Bush* looks like he won this "small battle" of words the last week or so.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. People say they detest negative ads...but they all work
And the Swiftliar's Ads are working...they're turning off a small but key portion of the undecided voters in the battleground states, who were previously leaning toward Kerry.

Regrettably, Bob Schram has Dukakis-ized this campaign. Holding the proverbial "high ground" while the numbers-- and its all in the numbers-- swing slowly but inexorably toward Bush.

Ignoring the lies for two weeks was a major strategic blunder. One from which he may not be able to recover.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. What numbers?
Why are you satisfied to spread the image of defeat? All of the numbers that I have seen, especially in those states that have been described as battlegrounds, have been moving towards Kerry. Pennsylvania and Michigan, for example. In Pa. Kerry is leading on 4 out of 5 issues that most concern voters, the economy and jobs at the top of that list. Why should Kerry allow himself to be thrown off of message when it is so resonating in these key areas?
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. Well...Gallup and Pew for a start...
http://www.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=12694

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=221

With Bush holding the advantage on most personal qualities and Kerry on most issues, the horse race itself is about as deadlocked as it was prior to the Democratic Convention, with 47% of registered voters favoring the Kerry/Edwards ticket, and 45% favoring Bush and Cheney. Just 2% say they would vote for Nader if the election were being held today. Follow-up questions indicate that most of Kerry's supporters are still mainly motivated by being anti-Bush (51%) rather than pro-Kerry (43%). However, the current pro-Kerry component of the Democrat's vote base has risen sharply since May, when it was just 29%, while the anti-Bush component has dropped from 64%. A majority (59%) of the Democratic candidate's backers now say they support him strongly, though a larger majority (71%) of Bush's backers say they support him strongly. Bush supporters, by a margin of nearly four-to-one, describe their vote as being mainly pro-Bush rather than anti-Kerry.
<snip>

And I'm not trying to be a smartass...but what message? The last two weeks, Kerry and Schram have succeeded in being baited into two Rovian traps and have let Bush dominate and control the "policy" message.

And meanwhile...here in Ohio...the Swiftboat Liar's ad keeps running ...and running... and running... With no response in sight.

We at DU are posting polls about who should be in Kerry's cabinet and how wide a margin Kerry will win by.

But this campaign is in danger of slipping away if it does not instantly and aggressively respond--on the air--to each of Rove's lying ads.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. polls
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 09:19 PM by bigtree
Income Gap Up Over Two Decades, Data Show
Income Gap Between Richest and Middle-Income Americans Up Steadily Over Two Decades, Data Show

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040817_394.html

WASHINGTON Aug. 17, 2004 — Over two decades, the income gap has steadily increased between the richest Americans, who own homes and stocks and got big tax breaks, and those at the middle and bottom of the pay scale, whose paychecks buy less.

The growing disparity is even more pronounced in this recovering economy. Wages are stagnant and the middle class is shouldering a larger tax burden. Prices for health care, housing, tuition, gas and food have soared.

The wealthiest 20 percent of households in 1973 accounted for 44 percent of total U.S. income, according to the Census Bureau. Their share jumped to 50 percent in 2002, while everyone else's fell. For the bottom fifth, the share dropped from 4.2 percent to 3.5 percent.

Jobs and the economy top the list of voter concerns this election year. President Bush touts a strong economy that is growing, but polls find that Americans have doubts and think jobs are scarce. John Kerry is trusted more on the economy, with Democrats talking regularly of "two Americas," divided between the rich and everyone else.
_____________________________

Kerry May Benefit From Voter Concern About Economy Under Bush, Polls Show- http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a

Aug. 13 (Bloomberg) -- Two-thirds of U.S. adults rate the country's economy as ``fair'' or ``poor'' and voters say Democrat John Kerry, a four-term senator from Massachusetts, is more likely to improve it than President George W. Bush, according to a poll by the Pew Research Center.

Fifty-two percent of the registered voters among the adults surveyed by Pew Aug. 5-10 said they think Kerry would do a better job improving economic conditions and 37 percent said Bush would be better. That is an increase of 4 percentage points for Kerry on the issue since Pew last asked the question in May.
___________________________________

The Kerry campaign has plenty of positive numbers to cite, including:

-- A Quinnipiac University poll showing Kerry and his running mate, John Edwards, with a slight lead in Florida over Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney.

-- An Epic-MRA survey suggesting that Michigan is tilting slightly toward the Democratic ticket.

-- An American Research Group survey showing Kerry-Edwards with small lead in New Hampshire.

Those three states, with a combined 48 electoral votes, were evenly split between Kerry and Bush before last month's Democratic National Convention in Boston.

In addition, Pennsylvania and Oregon -- a combined 28 electoral votes -- were evenly split in July, and now the states appear to tilt toward Kerry, according to private polling and interviews with strategists in both parties.

More: http://www.11alive.com/specials/local/decision2004/decision_article.aspx?storyid=50474
__________________________________

Mounting concerns over the war and the sluggish economy have sent President Bush's popularity plummeting among young adults in the past four months, complicating his bid for reelection and challenging Republicans to increase their efforts to win over new or lightly committed young voters>>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1509-2004Aug14.html?referrer=email
__________________________________

Ohio -- from swing state leaning Bush to Kerry stronghold

Kerry is ahead in Ohio by a whopping 9 points.

http://2.004k.com/state/?s=Ohio
___________________________________

Bush vs. Kerry

Moral values issues

8/3-5/04------44 44
7/20-22/04----48 40

Tax policy

8/3-5/04------43 47

The economy

8/3-5/04------42 51
7/20-22/04----42 50

Health care

8/3-5/04------36 54

Understanding the needs of people like yourself

8/3-5/04------38 53
7/20-22/04----40 52

Source: Time magazine

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04misc.htm
______________________________________

John Kerry holds a 47-42 point lead in Pennsylvania with Ralph Nader attracting 4% in a new poll released today. This represents little change from a July poll which gave Kerry a 46-41 point lead.

Interestingly Kerry leads 46-42 among vets and their families and among these same voters Nader actually attracts 6%. Vets and their families are among the most anti-Iraqi war in Pennsylvania opposing the war by a 54-41 margin.

Bush has a 45% approval rating and 52% disapproval rating.

In the Senate race Specter leads Hoeffel 48-33.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x12945.xml
______________________________________

National Polls:

Zogby: Kerry 47, Bush 43, Nader 2

Gallup: Bush 48, Kerry 46, Nader 3

Pew: Kerry 47, Bush 45, Nader 2

Rasmussen (8/17): Kerry 49, Bush 46

State Polls:

MD: Kerry 53, Bush 40

CA: Kerry 54, Bush 38

NC: Bush Up 3 & 6 Pts in New Polls

http://www.realclearpolitics.com /
__________________________________________

A poll conducted by the National Jewish Democratic Council gives John Kerry a commanding 75-22 percent lead over George W. Bush among Jewish voters. "The work that the Bush administration has done over the last three years to reach out to Jewish voters has been largely unsuccessful," says pollster Anna Greenberg.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040816-114755...
___________________________________________

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/3658916/detail.html

ANNAPOLIS, Md. -- A new statewide poll shows little change in the presidential race in Maryland, with Democrat John Kerry continuing to hold a substantial lead over President George W. Bush.

the poll by Gonzales Research & Marketing Strategies of Annapolis, Kerry was favored by 53 percent of voters and Bush by 40 percent. There was little change from a poll two months earlier which gave Kerry a lead of 52 percent to 38 percent.

The telephone poll of 847 registered voters was conducted Aug. 10 through Aug. 15. The margin of error is plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Bush's job approval rating improved, although only 43 percent of those polled said they think he is doing a good job compared with 51 percent who disapproved. The numbers were 39 percent approving and 54 percent disapproving in the June poll.
_____________________________________________

For the fourth time this month--John Kerry has 49% in a tracking poll for Rasmussen. Bush is at 46%. Yesterday, Kerry led by only one-point 48-47. Bush has by and large been stuck between 45-46 in this poll all month. Kerry has been at 48-49 for seven of the last eight days.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/
______________________________________________

Bush 48%, Kerry 45% (Research 2000)
Bush 48%, Kerry 44% (LCV)

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1527546p-7702817...

Bush, Kerry close in N.C., poll says

In what may be the closest presidential race in the state since 1992, Democrat John Kerry is within 3 percentage points of President Bush in a new poll.
Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney hold a lead of 48 percent to 45 percent over Kerry and his running mate, Sen. John Edwards, according to a poll conducted this week for The News & Observer, WRAL-TV and WUNC radio.

The poll, taken about two weeks after the Democratic National Convention, shows a slight gain of 2 percentage points for Kerry since the poll a month ago, when he trailed Bush by 5 points. The percentage of voters who say Edwards' presence on the ticket makes them more likely to vote for the Democrats also rose 2 points, to 27 percent.

The margin of error is 4 percentage points

Kerry, to show he is serious about competing here, plans to visit the Charlotte area Friday and discuss economic security, jobs and affordable health care, said campaign spokesman Ron Eckstein.
_____________________________________

Kerry is ahead 47% to Bush 43% if you throw in Nader and Libertarian candidates.

Without, Kerry 50% to 43%.

Interesting snips:

When asked if President Bush "deserves to be re-elected", 43% of likely voters responded positively, while the majority (53%) still says that it is "time for someone new."

Pollster John Zogby: “Kerry leads in the Blue States by 17 (54%-37%) while Bush leads in the Red States by 6 (47%-41%). Good news for the President: he is back to attracting 86% of Republicans, while Kerry gets 79% of the Democrats. However, Kerry leads 49% to 31% among Independents.

Kerry leads among all age groups except 30-49 year olds, where the two candidates are pretty much tied. Catholics give Kerry a 50%-37% edge – numbers more similar to Clinton’s leads in 1992 and 1996 than Al Gore’s 51% to 46% margin in 2000. Protestants are for Bush (57% to 33%), especially on the strength of the President’s 68% to 20% margin among Born Again Protestants.

The two candidates are in a dead heat among self-identified members of the investor class – Kerry 45% to Bush’s 44%. Bush won this group by double digits in 2000. Not only has this group shrunk from almost half of all voters to only 31%, but Bush is now tied among a group he will need for victory.

Kerry also way up among women voters!

More here:

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=851
_____________________________________

Amongst military households, 54 percent think going to Iraq was the wrong thing, compared to 41 percent who think it was the right thing. Amongst independents, 58 percent think it was the wrong thing, compared to 37 percent who still approve.

"In what may prove to be damaging news for the President, the anti-war attitude among voters from military households in Pennsylvania is greater than the attitude among all voters. Kerry hold the same slim lead among these voters that he has among the electorate in general," Richards added.

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x12945.xml
________________________________________

There is usually a point where the public decides that both the candidates are too negative. At that point the question always is: What does your candidate stand for, what does he intend to do for America besides throw mud. I recall that the Bush team last election was able to cast Gore as more negative by claiming he was practicing the 'politics of personal destruction', a Clinton team line.

It would be nice to see our candidate get the credit for a positive campaign that addresses the concerns and needs of Americans, rather than be seen as just another brawler in a overly negative campaign. That seems to be the strategy of John Edwards when he asks the crowd "Aren't you sick of the negative attacks?" I don't believe there is any evidence that the Bush smears are resonating with anyone but those who aren't inclined to like or vote for Kerry. The voters we need in the closely divided electorate have indicated over and over, in this campaign and others, that they want a positive campaign that focuses on their lives, not on tit for tat rhetoric that has nothing to do with their needs or concerns.

I just don't give much weight to the moronic slaphappy nonsense of the Bush camp. I don't see the impact registering in any poll, most of which show Kerry gaining moderately on his lead in key areas. Negative attacks, whether as a response or as an offensive tactic tend to drive up a candidate's negatives more than those actions contribute to any gain in their polls or standing. The articulation of a positive vision for America takes time and effort.

Kerry can't just show up at the debates and offer to clean up the system if he is caked with mud that he has been throwing and not much else of substance that the public recognizes he stands for. Remember, most folks don't actually know alot about Kerry. He is correct in presenting himself and his campaign with substance and a determination to stay focused on the real concerns of the voters. Especially the 'swing voters', who may have been turned off by 'politics as usual' and would welcome a debate on the issues.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Responding to lies is NOT "going negative"
The campaign should ask Rassemann to cut a tasteful spot...I would suggest a solitary stool before an American flag on a standard... where he tells the audience about that day in 1969.

He doesn't need to name the swiftboat liars or address ANY of the specifics of the ad...in fact he MUST NOT reply to any of the specifics of the ad --the Talking Heads will do that for us.

It will work today just like it worked in Iowa...and its the truth.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. After awhile the public lumps all of the noise together as negative
Especially if none of it actually relates to their needs and concerns.

More importantly, the strategy of the Bush campaign is to throw out these red herrings and force the Kerry campaign to spend all of the time that they should be defining their own vision and following their own agenda defending these bogus charges. Why should Kerry allow himself to be diverted? It just plays into Bush's plan. Anytime he wants to throw Kerry off message he can just send out a surrogate with a one-liner. To be seen as responding to every attack will signal that Kerry can be thrown. Not a good strategy for our camp.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Having Rossemann cut some ads would not divert the Kerry campaign
Please note two new developments:

1. Rove has instructed Perry to purchase another $100,000 worth of SB Liar's ads as of today.

2. Scarbouough, Rush and O'Rielly are still fixating on the SB liars...their shows are saturated with the issue.

It appears that internal GOP polling is showing the SB Liar's ads are working in key battleground states.

We can still turn this around to our advantage, but not by ignoring it. Neither Kerry nor Edwards should respond.

But Rossemann and the Band of Brothers need to go public... with the assent of the campaign.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. I like our ads.
I would welcome more. So would Kerry, although he can't say so without appearing to be in the mud. Mike Malloy just said he agrees with Kerry's decision to take the 'high road'.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. The thing about Dukakisization....
is everyone now knows what it means. A BS campaign meant to smear one's opponent (sp?) based on lies and innuendo. In other words, everyone whose vote we need to attract KNOWS what bush* is doing. People don't like being played as idiots. As I've said before, I think it will backfire just enough to win us this election.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. I pray you're right...but no one's ever gone broke underestimating the
...taste (and intelligence) of the American public.

Plus...even if you're right, is there any downside to running a response to a lyin' attack ad initiated by your opponent?

I think not.
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charlyvi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. MoveOn is doing it....
so Kerry doesn't have to. That's the beauty of it all--he can remain above the fray.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. You have ignored all of the effort by the campaign before and after
You assume that the Moveon effort is not coordinated with the campaign. It's likely as orchestrated as bush and the swiftliars.

There was a report on MSNBC's olberman that pointed up the fact that most voters, independent and undecided voters are turned off by the attack politics, so it is a smart move for Kerry to distance himself from the attacks.

Poll after poll has indicated that American's #1 concerns in the battleground states are the economy and jobs. The bush attacks are an effort to divert the Kerry campaign from their agenda which has focused on Bush's greatest weakness. The bush campaign has actually knocked their own touting of the 'recovery' off of the screen with their own attacks. I just don't see the advantage in their rhetoric. I don't see the impact that you see, especially in those key states where the impact of the bush economy has hit the hardest.

As long as the Kerry campaign is seen as addressing the real concerns of the voters he will always get a pass from them much as Clinton did during his term where we saw the most withering attacks from the right-wing that had ever been foisted on a presidency. The public may well view Kerry as a rouge (that remains to be seen), but they will stick with him if he focuses most of his time on their issues and concerns and leaves the diversionary attack and response over tangential issues to others. His job is to set his own agenda and stay on message. That will frustrate the republican machine more than a tit for tat, which will only cause the voters to place a pox on both parties, regardless of who is right or wrong.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
50. The same Olberman poll showed that 27% of undeciededs...
Edited on Wed Aug-18-04 09:03 PM by farmbo
...who were previously leaning towards Kerry were re-thinking their support in light of the SwiftLiar's Ads. That's bad medicine.

I think Kerry will always have the advantage in Jobs & the Economy. But as an incumbent, Bush has the ability to elevate terror and military affairs to trump Kerry's advantage on domestic issues.

I can't dispute the overall thrust of your post but I've changed my thinking on the SwiftBoat Liar's Ads over the past two weeks. We need to respond to them...and quickly...so we can get back on our message.

PS...I would ask Rosseman to cut a tasteful ad...perhaps perched on a solitary stool before a flag...telling the audience about that day in 1969. It worked in Iowa, it will work now...and its the truth.


edited to change 29% to 27%
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. That leaves 73% leaning to Kerry
Hard to imagine that they will be able to hang with the swiftliars as they are thoroughly discredited.
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Not necessarily...they just don't give a sh*t about the ads
It may be that Bush & Rove have harvested that 27% of undecideds leaning toward Kerry.

And that's bad medicine.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. They have nothing in the recent attacks that will hold
them through the rest of the election. All they have are bushlies which are blowing up in the face of his campaign and defining him as the king of smears. Attacks tend to raise the negatives of a candidate and make folks cynical enough to sit out the election. There is nothing of substance in the attacks to get these folks to the polls.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##
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This week is our third quarter 2004 fund drive. Democratic
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DaveinMD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
42. the entire thing was choreographed
if you read the quote from move on, its quite obvious. Kerry gets to stay above the fray and still benefit from the ads. This is how the game is played.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
44. There have been responses that have reached the local media
Ex-Kerry crewmate visits Florida cities

Published August 15. 2004 7:30AM
Ocala.com- StarBanner

OCALA - The highest ranking enlisted man on Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry's U.S. Navy swift boat in Vietnam, Clearwater resident Del Sandusky, will visit three north central Florida sites next Wednesday.

Sandusky will visit with UAW retirees on 4301 Maricamp Rd., from 11:30 a.m.-1 p.m., be at the Disabled American Veterans Center (Chapter 85) at 9892 SE 58th Ave., from 3-5 p.m. before concluding his visit at the Unified Training Center at 809 North University Ave., in Gainesville from 7-9 p.m.

Sandusky was born in a farming community in Streator, Ill., in December of 1943. His father worked for the Santa Fe railroad and the moved to Florida in 1957 where Del attended Dunedin Middle School.

"He will be here to answer any and all questions about the man who saved his life and whose life he saved," said Bob Van Heyde, a local Kerry supporter.
http://www.starbanner.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040815/NEWS/208150352/1001/news01



Edwards Defends Kerry From Cheney's Jabs

Saturday August 14, 2004 2:01 AM
By KATHY BARKS HOFFMAN- Associated Press Writer

FLINT, Mich. (AP) - A day after Vice President Dick Cheney criticized John Kerry, Democratic Sen. John Edwards defended his running mate on Friday, saying he spilled ``his blood for the United States'' and accusing the Republican of distorting Kerry's words.

``He took that word and distorted and tried to use it to argue John Kerry will not keep the American people safe,'' Edwards said. ``He's talking about a man who still carries shrapnel in his body. He's talking about a man who spilled his blood for the United States of America.''

Edwards' visit to Flint focused on issues polls show are even higher than security on Michigan voters' list of concerns: jobs and the economy.

``What it is is an effort to distract, not to talk about the problems here in Flint, Michigan,'' the North Carolina senator told the audience of about 1,500, who gathered in a drizzling rain outside Mott Community College.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-4419705,00.html



Veterans with Bush Truth Squad blast attacks on Kerry's war record
By Bret Hayworth, Journal staff writer

>>>>>

Members of the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth group did not serve with Kerry in Vietnam, but question the particulars by which Kerry earned several military awards. Gil Zemansky, former senior adviser to the Vietnamese River Patrol Division in the early 1970s, called on the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth to stop a "smear campaign" that is politically based. Zemansky said he agreed with the remarks last week of Republican U.S. Sen. John McCain, a Vietnam veteran, who called ads criticizing Kerry's Vietnam service as "dishonest and dishonorable."

Zemansky said the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth comprises Republican-connected persons, including John O'Neill, whose activities the president should condemn. "It goes beyond criticism, it is smearing," Zemansky said. Sioux City veterans Gene Ebner and Bob Miller said the Bush campaign is using low tactics by not disassociating from the swiftboat group.

State Rep. Roger Wendt of Sioux City said there were lots of ways of getting out of Vietnam War service, including fleeing to Canada, getting a college deferment or serving in the National Guard. Yet Kerry volunteered and found himself part of some "of the most dangerous assignments" in Vietnam, Wendt said.

Zemansky said Bush "didn't keep his commitment to the country when it was his turn to serve" (in the National Guard) and questioned Bush administration officials Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz leading the war effort after never serving in the military themselves.
http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2004/08/14/news/local/bb9af540e11a3bed86256ef00018a9bf.txt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kerry-Edwards 2004 Will Distribute News Via U.S. Newswire: In a Campaign First, News Will Appear On Yahoo! News/Politics

8/13/2004 11:49:00 AM

To: National Desk, Political Reporter

Contact: Allison Dobson of Kerry-Edwards 2004, 202-464-2800

WASHINGTON, Aug. 13 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Effective immediately, all news documents issued to the media and the public by the Kerry-Edwards 2004 Press Office will be distributed via U.S. Newswire. These documents will include press releases, statements, news advisories, schedules, backgrounders and speech texts for the candidates, families, surrogates and staff as appropriate.

"We are pleased to have the unique resources of U.S. Newswire at our disposal," said Michael Meehan, Communications Director of Kerry-Edwards 2004. "They have a long history of helping presidential candidates tell their story to the press and the public, and we look forward to having the benefit of their experienced staff and unique technology as we move into a phase in the campaign where voters are increasingly focused on the election."

Additionally, through USN's unique agreements with online news services such as Yahoo! Google, Lexis/Nexis and others, Kerry- Edwards campaign news is posted in full to leading online news sites, enabling the research community, as well as the younger audiences that increasingly rely on online services, to receive news from the Kerry-Edwards campaign. Through U.S. Newswire's agreement with Yahoo!, Kerry-Edwards is the first presidential campaign to have its news and information posted directly to Yahoo! News/Politics ( http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index2&cid=669 ).

The effect of this unique arrangement may have been revealed in a recent Washington Post article, (A Bounce for JohnKerry.com, Washington Post, Aug. 11, 2004), which cited a new Nielsen/NetRatings survey showing traffic to www.JohnKerry.com has increased 191 percent in recent weeks, moving up to the 213th most popular site in the country. By comparison, the article stated, President Bush's site did not have enough visitors to even register with the survey.

U.S. Newswire began working for the John Kerry for President campaign in March 2004 and since then has distributed thousands of documents. USN has been contracted to provide news distribution by every leading vote-getter in each of the past four presidential elections.

------

Editors Note: U.S. Newswire's data feed is available to credentialed media at no charge via a variety of distribution means including: AP DataFeature; APExpress, the USN website (RSS enabled), Yahoo News, Google News and AOL News, MSNBC and others. For information about these and other options to receive the U.S. Newswire feed, please contact Mark Bagley of U.S. Newswire at 800-544-8995.

http://www.usnewswire.com /

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=219-08...





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NightOwwl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
45. And what is Kerry supposed to do?
He's already asked Bush to denounce the Sweat Boat Liars ads, so how can he turn around and denounce the MoveOn ad? Repugs would glom onto this and they would add the word "hypocrite" to their dictionary of daily Kerry-bashing.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
46. THIS shit again?
NT
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A_Possum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
55. MoveOne seems perfectly happy with Kerry's response
Salon-Kerry moves on the high road

MoveOn seems happy to see Kerry take the high road. Asked if he felt rebuked, Eli Pariser, head of MoveOn Pac, told War Room, "No. He has a role to play as presidential candidate and we have a role to play as an independent group interested in countering the smear campaign by the Bush surrogates."

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joanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-18-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Front page WP discredits at least one Smear Boat liar
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