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ccharles000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:30 PM
Original message
Poll question: Should Obama move to the center?
For the GE should Obama move to the center?
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. not technically possible.
He'd be moving right.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Move to the Center? Sen.Obama IS the Center. The center of gravity has aleady moved.
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 10:38 PM by Douglas Carpenter
The Reaganite style Convervative era is OVER!!!

Anyone to the right of Sen. Obama is now fringe!!
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ohioINC Donating Member (126 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. He still has to win in order to prove that
The election does not exist in a vacuum and anything could happen between now and the election. I hope Mr. Obama is up to the challenge.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. salon.com had a great article: Relax, liberals. You've already won
By Michael Lind

link:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/06/10/liberals/index.html

No matter who prevails at the ballot box in November, John McCain or Barack Obama, the four-decade-long conservative counterrevolution is over.

"For 40 years, the radical right tried to destroy the domestic and international order that American liberals created in the central decades of the 20th century. The people who are known today as "conservatives" are better described as "counterrevolutionaries." The goal of Barry Goldwater and the intellectuals clustered around William F. Buckley Jr.'s National Review was not a slightly more conservative version of the New Deal or the U.N. system. They were reactionary radicals who dreamed of a counterrevolution. They didn't just want to stop the clock. They wanted to turn it back. "

snip:"Three great accomplishments defined midcentury American liberalism: liberal internationalism, middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, and liberal individualism in civil rights and the culture at large. For four decades, from 1968 to 2008, the counterrevolutionaries of the right waged war against the New Deal, liberal internationalism, and moral and cultural liberalism. They sought to abolish middle-class entitlements like Social Security and Medicare, to replace treaties and collective security with scorn for international law and U.S. global hegemony, and to reverse the trends toward individualism, secularism and pluralism in American culture.


And they failed. On every front conservatives have failed, completely, undeniably and irreversibly. The failure of the right has left the structure of 20th-century American liberalism standing, battered and cratered but still intact.

The counterrevolutionary right failed first in the "culture war." From the '60s onward, conservatives lost every major battle. Conservative Republicans paid lip service to opposition to abortion and appointed strict constructionists to the federal bench. But the Supreme Court has not repealed Roe v. Wade and, because of its allergy to repudiating precedent, is not likely to do so. (Yes, even if John McCain appoints the next justice or two.) Nor has it restored prayer in public schools. What is more, in 2003 the Supreme Court struck down anti-gay sodomy laws nationwide. Conservatives responded by successfully supporting many state laws or state constitutional amendments to ban gay marriage, in addition to the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) enacted in the Clinton years. The recent state Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage in California may yet be overturned by a popular initiative. But many of the goals of the gay rights movement have been achieved far sooner than anyone could have imagined as recently as the 1990s. Meanwhile, conservative campaigns to censor movies and TV and music were doomed first by cable TV and then by the Internet."

"Their number is negligible and they are stupid"

snip:"The counterrevolution is over. For 40 years the radical right has sought to uproot and overturn the American domestic and global order created by centrist liberals of both parties between the 1930s and the 1970s. Liberalism has survived, while the right is not only defeated but also demoralized, dispersed and diminishing. "

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/06/10/liberals/index.html

--------------------

Allan J. Lichtman, Professor of History: the conservative era is coming to an end



the conservative era that began in 1980 is coming to an end


Conservative Disarray - Jun 6, 2008

link: http://news.google.com/news?btcid=70e35d3942b671

"One reason why the Keys to the White House, which have correctly predicted the popular-vote results of every presidential election since 1984, so strongly point to a Democratic victory this year is that the conservative era that began in 1980 is coming to an end. This is explained in my new book, White Protestant Nation: The Rise of the American Conservative Movement. As illustrated by the debate over immigration policies the movement is divided between pro-business and social conservatives. As illustrated by the persistent appeal of the once unknown Ron Paul conservatives are divided between conservatives with a libertarian bent and big government conservatives who have contradicted the ideals of limited government, fiscal responsibility, individual freedom, and states’ rights. During the Bush years, conservatives have built the biggest, most expensive, and most intrusive national government in the history of the Republic. Despite their disdain for social engineering by government, the Bush administration has undertaken in Iraq the most daunting and expensive social engineering project since the Reconstruction of the South. According to the Keys to the White House, conservative disarray is reflected in Republican midterm election losses, a lack of positive domestic accomplishments, setbacks abroad, and the failure to find an inspirational nominee."

link: http://news.google.com/news?btcid=70e35d3942b671

Professor Lichtman’s books include Prejudice and Old Politics: The Presidential Election of 1928; Your Family History; Ecological Inference; and The Keys to the White House. He was named the 1992-1993 Scholar-Teacher of the Year, the university’s highest faculty honor, and has provided commentary for all major U.S. broadcasting networks and cable companies, the Voice of America, and many foreign broadcast companies, including BBC and CBC. He worked with Dan Rather as a CBS consultant during the impeachment of President Clinton, served as the 2004 election-night analyst for BBC Worldwide, and is now political analyst for CNN Headline News. His more than 100 scholarly and popular articles have appeared in such journals and newspapers as the American Historical Review, the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the New York Times, and the Washington Post. He is also a columnist for the Montgomery Gazette and has served as an expert witness in more than 70 voting rights and redistricting cases.

http://www.american.edu/cas/hist/faculty/lichtman.htm
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. NEVER EVER EVER RELAX! That's how we got the DLC bullshit from the clinton who actually won!
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 11:18 PM by Zhade
We can never again assume a Dem president will represent liberal values - I feel Obama will, but we must be vigilant.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. of course winning in November is VERY important..

but I find it interesting that the ONLY reason why Sen. McCain has ANY viability whatsoever is ONLY to the extent that he can convince people that he is not the kind of Republican and the kind of Conservative that they are used to.

NO candidate running on the standard Reaganite conervative message has even a prayer of a chance of winning anymore.
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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. He is.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
24. That eight year old talking point is getting stale.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. He's already there. n/t
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Lisa0825 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. There is a difference between appealing to the center and moving to the center.
He will likely be appealing more to the center during the GE than during the primary. That is typical.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. He's not a flaming liberal like me. He is a centrist.
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 10:43 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
If he were "the most liberal blah blah blah" he would be helping following Kucinich's lead in the senate, supporting gay MARRIAGE, promoting straight up universal healthcare, etc."
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Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I'm hoping he pulls a Chimp move in reverse.
Everybody thought Junior was moderate too. :evilgrin:

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Some folks just don't get it.


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Kokonoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. As the right falls off its cliff, Obama is pulling them back to safety.
A move to the right would just lose more people.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
8. Away from... the dead center? Hillary has a higher liberal rating.
Barely. They're both socially liberal Centrists.
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newmajority Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. He already is in the center
I'm hoping he starts moving to the left the day after the election.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
11. He should be who he is
and not pander to anyone, which he has done a good job of and is a big reason why I am such a big supporter of his. He should emphasize how his plan for America is beneficial to whatever crowd he is talking to but he should not contradict himself for different audiences or say anything he doesn't believe.
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sweet baby jesus Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. the center of Washington DC when he becomes president?
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mwooldri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
17. Check out politicalcompass.org...
http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008

Idealogically Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama aren't that far away from each other. In European eyes they're moderately conservative. Kucinich would be viewed in Europe as a mainstream social democrat.

The problem is that America is conservative. That's why Obama appears to be liberal and Kucinich appears to be a extreme-loony-leftie.

America needs to shift to the left.

Mark.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. stop making sense!!
Edited on Tue Jun-10-08 11:47 PM by Douglas Carpenter
I recall an Irish friend of mine who was amazed when some Americans thought I was very leftwing.. When he had surmised from a number of conversations that I was almost slightly right-of-center.

America is REALLY waaaaaay out in the Twilight Zone when it comes to the range of popular debate. It all seems quite unreal to those who engage with the international community in political discussion.
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Solon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. No shit, I'm still amazed that people claim he's a liberal politician...
The guy is a moderate conservative with some slightly more liberal positions on social issues.
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Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. He's a pretty reasonable liberal politician.
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silverback Donating Member (111 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. He needs to throw a bone to the RLC types...
Moderate doesn't really mean anything, what he should do is deny the Republican party any refuge.

Obama is going to clean McCains clock in this election either way, so the objective is really broader than just winning this election.

Neoconservatism is dying, an Obama presidency would put the final nail in its coffin, and the paleo/libertarian folks who've been reluctant Rs since Reagan are in play since the party has alienated them over the last ten years, and particularly during the primary season when they demonized Ron Paul. Barr isn't a real Libertarian either, so the actual LP folks might be swayed as well.

I don't think Obama would need to compromise any principles to do it either, he just needs to tailor his message and make a gesture or two.

The payoff is the utter ruin of the Republican party and a new coalition of liberals, including the classical liberals, actually governing.

This way he can deliver on his message of a new politics, it's true that the nation is moving left but without reaching out to sensible Independents and disillusioned Republicans we'll be fighing the same battle every two years.

It's time to crush the rethugs and the way to do that is to expand the tent.
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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
23. Move to the center of what?
Kal-ee-forn-ya?

He is way more to the right than I have ever been. I am a Kucinich liberal. I wish he would be way more to the left.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
25. He needs to present liberal ideals in ways that appeal to moderates.
Edited on Wed Jun-11-08 02:21 AM by Radical Activist
That's exactly what he has been doing from day one of his campaign and I expect he will continue doing so.
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Asgaya Dihi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
26. He's already pretty centrist
I've said before that I didn't see a lot of difference between Clinton and Obama before the campaign really got going and that's exactly why, both are pretty close in position on most things and on some issues he's a bit less 'progressive' than she is. On some a bit more maybe. Neither had any natural claim to progressive or liberal though. I think the progressives came out for him more as a response to style than to anything. They just didn't like the aggressive Clinton campaigning style much. I don't see how it would have been based on policy at least early on though he has said a few more hopeful things during the campaign and especially since Edwards came into the picture more.
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caseycoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
27. He would have to move LEFT to even get to the center! n/t
Edited on Wed Jun-11-08 04:46 AM by caseycoon
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BklynChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 06:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. in my mind, he's already a centrist
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musicblind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
29. eh, for the GE campaign ... yes... but he should move back to the left onces he is in the
white house. It's like a cat and mouse game really. What is most important is getting in the White House where he can bring about the real change. imo.
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Liberal_Stalwart71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
30. Why has everyone bought in the Right Wing lie that Obama is liberal?
He simply isn't. He may be left of center on some issues, but he's a pragmatic centrist. That's why he wasn't my first choice. Kucinich was. Then Edwards. Now Obama. He's more liberal than the DLC and Hillary Clinton, but he is NOT liberal. Feingold? Yes. Sanders? Yes. Obama? NO!!!
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
31. Obama is not an ideologue
It's not easy to pin him down, because he'll treat each situation uniquely. He is a pragmatic idealist with a classic liberal baseline, but more than anything he'll do what it takes to get things done. Anybody expecting him to stay always where you want him is in for a let down. He doesn't really have to move anywhere. He just has to be who he is. He's got a varied appeal.
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meow2u3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
32. He should go populist
Appeal to working-class voters of all races and ages, and both sexes, pointing out that McTemper Tantrum's policies are not only harmful to the economy, but also un-American.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
33. I really think it might be time to dumb down some of his message
Especially when it comes to the gas prices issue. I was alarmed that his opinion of the gas situation was absolutely right, but it's not what Americans want to hear right now and his words can easily be twisted.
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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
34. There's going to be a lot
Edited on Wed Jun-11-08 07:56 AM by FlaGranny
of grousing around here because he is going to appear to be moving to the right. He's going to be talking to people that DUers are not going to like. Just remember, when he does, he also wants to talk with "enemies" like Iran (which most of us agree with). Some of this is not going to go over well I fear, but there ain't no way in hell anything gets done in this world without negotiation, unless you're running a dictatorship.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. Obama has ALWAYS been in the center/right he corted rethglican votes and won majority red states in
Edited on Wed Jun-11-08 08:36 AM by ElsewheresDaughter
the Primary...remember his ads asking for Repubs to vote for him?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-11-08 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
36. as long as it's just to get elected, sure.
but he needs to govern from the left.
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