I understand now why Kerry condemned the MOVEON ad.

[mzmolly]

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0819.html

And more than thirty years ago, I learned an important lesson—when you’re under attack, the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attacker. That’s what I intend to do today.

Over the last week or so, a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has been attacking me. Of course, this group isn’t interested in the truth – and they’re not telling the truth. They didn’t even exist until I won the nomination for president.

But here’s what you really need to know about them. They’re funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They’re a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won’t denounce what they’re up to tells you everything you need to know—he wants them to do his dirty work.

Thirty years ago, official Navy reports documented my service in Vietnam and awarded me the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam.

:hi:

It makes perfect sense now, he had to do so in order to call Bush on his failure to do the same.

[sniffa]

1. today is the first i've heard of kerry

denounceing moveon... is that in reference to the "hitLer" ad?

[benburch]

6. Nope.

They had an ad trashing Bush's fake service record and the Swift Vets.

I think it did go a bit too far even though I helped pay for it.

[Capn Sunshine]

7. MoveOn NEVER had a "Hitler" Ad

however, one of the entries in a contest they had awhile back did have the ad as a submission. But look how this has been twisted .

It was by takebackthemedia.com , and I thought it was fucking brilliant. Unless you don't think the Bush family fortune being based on banking for Hitler and coordinating his financing is at all gemane to the charge that Bush 2 is a fascist prone little prick.
This is good background for that.

THIS is a good starting point on that subject.

[nostamj]

18. IIRC, TBTM did a "Hitler" flash *before* the MoveOn

competition, but I don't believe they entered a 'hitler' ad.

I think both AS and symbolman are media-savvy enough to know that a Hitler reference wouldn't have made the cut for a national, mainstream ad.

[EST]

33. The RNC kept the ad entry up

on their website for weeks so everybody could see it and the freepers could bitch and moan. Moveon never ran it at all and erased it instantly when the rethugs bitched.

[rocktivity]

9. Kerry denounced MoveOn's response to the Smear-Boaters ad

https://www.moveonpac.org/donate/swiftresponse.html

It states that Bush got into the national guard through his father, "was grounded, and then went missing." It shows McCain's denouncement, and asks Bush to get the Smear-Boaters ad taken off the air. Kerry's response was to issue a statement saying that it wasn't "appropriate" to criticize Bush's military record.

What he was really doing, of course, was slamming the ball into Bush's court--"I defended you, now turnabout is fair play." If Bush decides to denounce the Smear-Boaters, Kerry wins (or at the very least, look more "Christian"). And if he doesn't, the Kerry camp is free to go after him with all guns blazing!

:headbang:
rocknation

[sniffa]

12. but, but, but...

i stiLL haven't found in where kerry denounced it. if anybuddy has a Link (did he denounce it on his site?) to john denouncing it... that wouLd be great.

i need to smack someone upside the head with it.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. type 'kerry denounces ad' into google

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&q=kerry+denounces+ad

[sniffa]

26. thank you muchLy

[rocktivity]

30. My bad, Sniffa--here you go

From The Mercury News online:

...In the Latest twist in an ongoing debate about miLitary credentiaLs, Kerry condemned the new ad by the MoveOn poLiticaL action committee, even though it was produced in response to an ad questioning Kerry's Vietnam War record.

...Kerry caLLed the ad ``inappropriate'' after Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., a former Vietnam prisoner of war, criticized the MoveOn commerciaL. The 30-second ad accuses Bush of using famiLy connections to avoid the Vietnam War...

:headbang:
rocknation

[XanaDUer]

2. Yup, and this is good

now *we* get to make them writhe.

[WilliamPitt]

3. Light dawns

:)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. Stratege(r)y

-:)

[Walt Starr]

10. Rove is a masterful Political Tactician

Kerry proved to me in the primaries that he is a masterful Political Strategist.

Tactics win skirmishes and battles.

Strategy wins the war.

Kerry is winning this war.

[molly]

29. Rove is losing it - a thin line between insanity and genius

the "Sophie's choice" ad cemented it in my mind.

[rocktivity]

4. He's sprung his claws--jungle red!

:headbang:
rocknation

[enigmatic]

8. You got it...

And now I hope that finally everyone understands what Kerry was doing...

[WilliamPitt]

11. Furthermore

When I get frustrated at people who flip out because "Kerry isn't doing anything," it is because of stuff like this. We are watching a multi-pronged saturation bombing by Kerry's people:

- The new commercial, which is excellent

- The WaPo article, which is awesome, and basded on a FOIA request WHICH TOOK TIME

- The Kerry speech challenging Bush to a debate on their respective Vietnam records

- The subtle work with MoveOn; they put out the ad, it starts a buzz, and Kerry distances himself from it (with MoveOn fully aware that they would) to show the voters that Kerry doesn't fight in the scum vats.

I knew this was coming, and was able to be patient. I wish others here could do the same.

[Walt Starr]

13. It's strategy vs. tactics

DUers have been calling for tactical responses. The Kerry campaign has bided their time for a more effective Strategy.

Tactical responses to Rove's strategy of a barrage of tactical attacks plays right into Rove's hands. He's clearly two-dimensional in his thought processes based upon how he runs the show.

Kerry is clearly demonstrating four-dimensional (or greater) thinking in the application of strategy.

It's obvious these moves were thought out prior to the smear boat liars ever going public. Kerry is playing chess, and it appears to me he's currently thinking seven or more moves ahead of Rove.

Now, let's sit back and watch the strategy of the Iraq War stance play out, shall we?

:evilgrin:

[mzmolly]

14. I'm from Minnesota Will, where Wellstone's plane conveniently went down.

I put nothing past these people.

You have the benefit of knowing Kerry and his campaign style, as a rep of Mass for 35 years, and many here are just getting to know him.

Also, it's entirely possible that the campaign heard the pleas of THE PEOPLE that we must fight back ... and hard.

Lastly, it ain't over till it's over, and I am sure we'll remain a bit on edge until Bush concedes in November. :hi:

[Kahuna]

16. But you don't know that Kerry's response isn't in part in reply...

to the outcrys in the field. I think those/us who criticized Kerry for not responding to the attacks can take some responsibility for lighting a fire under Kerry. Of course, we don't really know. But neither do you.

[WilliamPitt]

22. Come on come on come on

The FOIA request took a few weeks, so clearly they started to react THE SECOND this bullshit hit. Do you really think Kerry's people would have ignored this if DU hadn't raised a ruckus? I've been talking to the campaign guys; they've been on this from second one, but here's the awful truth: A proper reaction takes time. They waited to get the facts.

[LuminousX]

17. Also, timing is important... if Kerry responded immediately

his response would have been lost with all the media attention on the accusations. Now that Smearboaters got their say, Kerry gets the stage all to himself to pick their lousy story to pieces. Which will remain fresher in the voter's minds: the accusations or how the accusers were proven to be liars?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. I think they played rope-a-dope

[Walt Starr]

41. What's even more beautiful is that Kerry's ad should now get some play

on the talking head shows.

[mzmolly]

49. Good point.

:hi:

[bambo53]

19. Will, remember 2002?

How did that work out for ya?:)

I think the Kerry campaign just might have heard our angst and angry cries for help. A lot of us remember what happens when we just sit back and trust our own party to do what they think is right for us... We ARE the party and they work for us.

[WilliamPitt]

20. It isn't 2002 anymore

The 9/11 shock has worn off, there are 1,000 dead soldiers, the budget crunch is really starting to hurt, Abu Ghraib/Plame hadnb't happened yet, and the Kerry boys are in the driver's seat, not the DNC.

The comparison is false, misleading and inaccurate. Sorry.

[bambo53]

27. So we should sit back, be quiet, and trust them?

And we should trust the Republicans to play nice.

I remember the 2002 election threads here very clearly, and how they all panned out. THIS time I wanna be heard.

[WilliamPitt]

32. I am sick of extremes

Option A: Panic every time the wires tremble

Option B: Do nothing and trust in Buddha

How about Option C: A little bit of both.

[EST]

31. Hey Will,

Let 'em holler a bit. they (we) all need to feel involved. And, frankly, most of us have earned it.

[ContinentalOp]

44. As one of those who has been "flipping out" a little I have to say,

It feels great to be proven wrong. Having egg on your face has never been so tasty. Let's hope the Kerry campaign is just getting warmed up and the best is yet to come. Being patient with this campaign is just so incredibly tough when we are all so impatient to get * the hell out of there!

[tavalon]

47. makes sense

I was surprised at the moveon.org ad (theirs is one of the groups I support) but within the context of this idea - it makes sense!

[curse10]

51. Agreed, Will

this is a fucking marathon, not a sprint. Kerry can't shoot from the hip everytime the bushies do something evil. If he did that all we'd be doing is getting into mud slingling all. the. time. We've gotta put the smack down, while at the same time maintaining a nice clean image.

[Kahuna]

15. Yeah, Baby! yeah!

[Julien Sorel]

24. Darmok and Jalad on the ocean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Sokath! His eyes open!

[KittyWampus]

42. What Do These Two Enigmatic Posts Mean? What Is The Cultural Reference?

I feel so out of touch :(

Suppose I could google but it's more fun to ask... :)

[Julien Sorel]

43. LOL

If only you knew how absolutely perfect your question is, especially the part about cultural reference.

It has to do with my favorite Star Trek episode (ST:NG), guest starring Paul Winfield, one of the more under rated actors of his generation. Winfield plays the captain of the ship of an alien race that has a unique language which consists of metaphors. So while the Enterprise crew can understand every word the alien race says, the message is entirely lost, because they lack the context.

For example, the word "corruption" in our language has a specific meaning. We understand it. But in the alien language, it might be expressed thus: "Gore and Bush 2000, Supreme Court." If you know what happened in 2000, you get the gist of it, if you don't, you have no chance.

I think it's one of the more clever ideas I've seen, and if more shows were that good, I'd still watch TV once in a while.

Anyway, the phrase "Darmok and Jalal, on the ocean," roughly means "We understand each other now, everything's cool."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

45. Picard and Dathon at Eladril.

http://www.chaparraltree.com/sflang/darmok.shtml

[patricia92243]

25. Is MoveOn still running the ad?

[EST]

28. Nope

They took it down instantly when Kerry condemned it --only ran 1 day.

[Mike L]

48. are you sure?

That doesn't make sense.

[mzmolly]

50. I'm sure, they stopped the ads per Kerrys request.

:shrug:

[Mike L]

52. Molly, the MoveOn ads are still on. see link.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/9...

[mzmolly]

53. That's actually very good news, thanks!

:hi:

[EST]

34. Eeegad!

You oughta hear that dastardly CNN trying to spin this for Bush. DISGRACEFUL!

[ibegurpard]

35. this is the kind of stuff I've been wanting to hear:

"But here’s what you really need to know about them. They’re funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They’re a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won’t denounce what they’re up to tells you everything you need to know—he wants them to do his dirty work."

Don't argue about the truth of the slanders when they're obviously lies...discredit the people telling them. Hopefully, the talking heads that speak for Kerry on the pundit shows will be swifter on the uptake after this.

[bambo53]

36. You're right about the talking heads on TV

They need to be clear, concise, and very firm when responding to bullshit attacks from right wing nut jobs.

Whatever happened to "Sir, have you no shame?"

[DU GrovelBot]

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[VolcanoJen]

39. Just saw that speech on CNN, and I was jumping up and down.

Finally!!!! Fucking finally.

Kerry promised he'd fight, and he finally came through. Took it all the way to Bush's door.

Yes!!!!

[NewYorkerfromMass]

40. Hey mzmolly!

:toast:

[mzmolly]

46. Hey NYM!

:hi: