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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:26 PM
Original message
Winning in November
I am new here and I have had my eyes opened to something that disturbs me and maybe I'm wrong so let me know. Let me claify before some of you go off on me but I am NOT VOTING FOR BUSH.

I had no idea that so much negative bashing of the Iraq war was going on. I haven't seen it be so bad in the national news. Call me ignorant or whatever but I support the Iraq war and feel it was the right thing to do. I don't see this as a republican position and it won't get me to vote for Bush.

What concerns me is this. We are not going to change the minds of the Bushies no matter how much we blast the war. But I do believe that if we keep pounding on this issue and coming across as borderline anti Americans by siding with Sadr and the like that we will push many moderates and undecided over to the Bush side.

We should focus on the lack of International support for the war and the economy. Things we can offer better and positive ideas on instead of the negative anti war rhetoric.

Just my opinion and I look foward to hearing what you think. Don't hate me for this position.
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Mick Knox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Prepare for incoming
Hope ya got your flame retardant suit on.
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. I am new here but
does everyone that doesn't agree 100% with what is said here get banned?

With the name Democratic Undergound I would assume that only democrats are allowed. If we are here for the same purpose-to get Kerry elected-then I am the one in agreement with him and the rest of you should be banned.

He and I agree with the Iraq war and we agree that more International support should have been garnered. The rest of you are taking the anti war stance and enevitably hurting our chances in November.

Maybe you should get your fire retardant suit out.


Oh yea I have forfeited this discussion. Sorry
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Welcome Surface. Good by Surface.
Seriously, you really need to stick around a read a few more things suggested around this site. Keep an open mind. The Iraq war is not winnable and it is not sustainable. What is it? It is a strategic diversion.
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mourningdove92 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Siding with Sadr? Coming across as Anti American?
Just because we do not believe we should have pre-emptively invaded a soveriegn nation that had not done us any harm?

If you, in your heart, believe that the war was justified, I would not hate you for that. We are all entitled to our beliefs. However, if your belief includes calling me siding with Sadr and Anti-American, THAT I would hate you for.

Perhaps you would prefer to clarify your position.
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veteran_for_peace Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. From a Veteran
No man loves this great country of ours more than I do. I have a great sense of patriotism that swells from my belief that our country is still a beacon for democracy around the world, and that the best of our country lies not in Washington DC but in the hearts of its citizens. However the lights of that beacon have grown dim; and, therefore, I shall speak my thoughts freely and without reservation. The time for sitting idle has ended and it is time that we rise to defend the honor and integrity of this great nation which has given us so much and yet has asked so little in return. The question before this great nation is one of the utmost importance. To use the words of Patrick Henry, “I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate.” It is only through the discourse that we can preserve freedom and democracy for future generation of Americans yet unborn. Some would say that I should keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving the President the ammunition needed to retain his stranglehold on power. But I question the validity of those beliefs; if I do not speak out then I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country and do not deserve the citizenship which I was given.
It is natural for people to believe in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the words of fools in order to make ourselves believe that there are no problems with the great nation. Is this the role that patriotic Americans are to play? Are we disposed to be someone who, having eyes, cannot see the truth, and, having ears, have lost the ability to hear, the things which concern the future of this great nation? For my part, whatever it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the Bush administration for the last three years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves that the have earned the right to lead this nation for another four years. Is it his use of the word values with which the President attempts to appease the American people that he is not a dangerous man? I urge my fellow Americans not to trust that for it is the gateway to slavery. Is it the fear tactics that he uses to distract us from the economic peril which faces the poor and middle class in this nation? We should not allow ourselves to sell our liberties and freedom for the delusion of safety. We must ask ourselves are we willing to sell the future of our children in order to obtain an small sense of security. Are we willing to leave to our children a heritage of deficits and broken promises? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be counted and heard that are will to accept another 4 years of this despotic regime? Let us not deceive ourselves, war has started and it is not one that will be fought on the battlefield of some foreign land, but rather it will be fought the hearts and mind of the American people? There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free -- if we mean to preserve those invaluable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not to abandon the righteous struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until we have obtained victory over the ones who wish to enslave us then we must fight! An appeal to take up the responsibility of preserving our democracy is all that is left for us!
The President says that John Kerry is weak; and unable to cope with such a formidable security issues such as Iraq and the “War on Terrorism”. But really who is stronger? Is it a sign of strength to destroy our alliances and go to war with a nation who did not pose a direct threat to the national security of our nation? Can the character of a leader be determined by what they did when it was there time to put their lives on the line? Shall we rest in the comfort of our strength alone? I say, that we are not weak if we make a proper use of our allies to defend the people of this world against the terrorist who threaten our way of life. Before we can expect to defeat this enemy we must first be able to identify the enemy and know how to defeat it. We must not fight this battle alone. The first battle of this war will take place on November 2, 2004 when we decide who will lead us for the next four years.

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. One of several good points you make, fellow Veteran...
"I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the Bush administration for the last three years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves that the have earned the right to lead this nation for another four years."
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Well said
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :toast:
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I
am not saying because you side with Sadr that you are anti-American. I AM saying that it is percieved by many exactly that way.

As far Veterans, I take my hat off and thank you.

I agree we need to speak our minds and do so in a way that is positive and in a way that cant be "PERCIEVED" and i repeat "PERCIEVED" not reality but "PERCIEVED" as anti American.

It boils down to this-we disagree on whether or not Iraq posed a threat. I believe they did and most if not all here do not.

I feel and I think most Americans believe that everything changed on 911. We went from being able to defend ourselves with a defensive posture to being forced to take an offensive posture. Like everyone here I find it easy to agree with everything but I also seeing us slipping into the false feeling that the entire country thinks like we do here on this site. And it just isn't that way.

My whole point was that if we keep bashing the war to a point where it is "percieved" as taking the other side we may win the popular vote on this site but we will lose in November.

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veteran_for_peace Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. A couple of question for you.
How did Iraq pose a threat to our national security?

Why don't we go after North Korea? Or do they not pose a threat?

What about the large number of unsecured Nuclear material in the former Soviet Union? Should we take an offensive posture toward them?


You say that 911 changed everything what exactly did it change?

The whole idea that we are to be silent for fear of scaring off somebody is very niave. It is with that logic that we got George Bush as our President.


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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Excuse me
Would you please explain what "bashing" is?

Maybe my view is different than yours, but what I read here is nothing more than people expressing their disagreement with Bush's policies.

If by bashing you mean "bashing the troops", then let me tell you that you are sadly mistaken.

As to Iraq being a "threat to us"......get real!!!1

Ever seen a movie called "The Mouse That Roared"? If not check it out. It speaks to your point about how threats are "PERCIEVED" most eloquently.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. An Iraqi threat? Where? With what?
No WMD, no biological, no chemical
No Air support
No Navy
No long range missles that would even come close to hitting US
An Infantry that consisted of aged Russian tanks and items that Americans originally provided

One Iraqi dictator found in a dirty, dusty hole in the middle of nowhere with no one, includ. body guards.

Honey I've had neighbors who were more of a threat to me than that.

Like I said, you put forth many ideas, no sources and little substance. You need to allow yourself to read and learn.

As to posters, myself included, being a supporter of Sadr....exactly where is your evidence for that claim?


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michigandem2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. look the war...keeps being brought up
by the bushies...that is the main thing that bush is leading on but losing ground on...there are issues that we need to talk about and democrats are divided on whether the war was an unjust war or not..but the fact is, its a mess..and it didn't need to be a mess..

BUT health care, jobs, taxes, homeland security...THESE are the issues that should be discussed and beacuse our "president" hasn't done a God DAMN thing about any of these items but make them worse...well he only has a sliver of hope in talking about the war on terra...and the silly thing is the war in Iraq is not the same as the war on terra...
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. That's what I'm talking about
KINDA
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michigandem2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. but my point is...
and I don't believe the war was right...I just don't..but I know many democrats in the middle or whatever might feel like it was...doing some research on it..it might change your mind BUT

when the whole conversation is about the war in Iraq...it leaves little room for anything else...Kerry has to get out there and pound Bush on the issues and it started with today...getting rid of the garbage surrounding the swift boats...

Just read up on this war thing...our party wants to talk about all the stuff that is wrong with the country INCLUDING Iraq...
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. But
there comes a time when we have to consider the greater good. I believe Kerry realizes this because he even came out and said he would still go into Iraq. I swear if we keep this rhetoric going we are missing out on an oppurtunity to get more votes. Isn't that what really matters.

I'm probably wrong but I do believe Iraq is part of the war on terror.

Hpefully we can agree to disagree.
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michigandem2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. well I suppose but I really think
that you aren't very informed on Iraq...

and Kerry never said he would "go into Iraq" he believed the President should of had the AUTHORITY to do so if all other attempts were exhausted..and those "attempts" were NOT exhausted..

If anything I think Kerry would get a LOT of praise if he said "look knowing what I know now...NO" because that is what his base wants to hear...regardless...he isn't the one who keeps bringing it up..and he is doing fine..I am not that worried about his stance on Iraq..because whatever the case is NOW...we can't pull them out immediately--but he has a plan to end this-
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maine_raptor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I agree, SurfaceMap, Iraq is part of the War on Terrorism
It is now that is!!!!!!!!!!!!
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michigandem2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. correct..it is now...it wasn't but it is now...nt
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. OKay..all you people that have sided with Sadr, step forward.
Wow! Look at that long line! :)
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tlcandie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Can check against statements in this thread where this whole issue
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. That is exactly
where I got off on this.

I am obviously in the minority on this or it appears I am the only one who feels this way. I will back off but at least I tried. I'll jump on board of most issues here but I hope you all won't hate me because we disagree on one point. Heck, I don't agree with everything my wife does but I love her to death.

I GIVE UP ON THIS ONE.
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NoBorders Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. Your point may be about "perception" may be true
Conservatives to moderates might interpret a denouncement of the Iraq war as 'anti-american' or 'supportive of Sadr'--that is, if they are not very thoughtful, which many are not. They are getting their information through the distorted media filter.

But the problem is not the valid criticsm of the war; the problem is the inability of our media and culture to process a criticsm of the war in a fair and reasoned way. Many of us refues to cave to this limited comprehension on the part of the mass media. We would rather try to get across the message that the war is wrong, rather than placate moderates by going soft on criticsm of the war. I guess we'll have to leave that to the Kerry campaign.
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Surface Map Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I swear
that is exactly what we should do. Leave it to the Kerry campaign. He gave us a clue recently when he came out and said he would still go into Iraq today. I believe what he is trying to portray, is we needed to go into Iraq but we should have gotten more International support.

We sit here and stick with our old "the war is wrong" rhetoric and we are missing the clues.

I apologize I threw the towel in already on this one and jumped back in. SORRY.

Surface Map out
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Democat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
24. I'm new here too, why do all liberals hate America?
Edited on Thu Aug-19-04 02:57 PM by Democat
:)
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Generator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Are you only here for the hatefest too?
;)
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Why do all republicans hate the democrats, the liberals,
the independents, the libertarians, the socialists, the communists, the Islamists and so on and so forth?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
27. you're ignorant
you asked for it, literally and figuratively.



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