For the Play Nice "Chess" crowd

[senseandsensibility]

I am honestly curious. Do you atill think it was wise for Kerry not to respond forcefully when his honor and patriotism and decency were being dragged through the mud for weeks? Do you still feel compelled to condescend to those of us who have been urging action for weeks? Will you still call us hand wringers, and smugly assure us that it's all under control?

As for the future, will you advocate more "take the high road" crap, seeing how successful it's been? Is *' s sordid and truly disgraceful military record to be off limits? Go on the record now, please. As for me, (and I only speak for myself), I SAY START FIGHTING BACK!!! If the past few weeks have not convinced you that *'s record is fair game, perhaps you don't want Kerry to win.

[Gloria]

1. It's nice to want to look "Presidential" and

stay above the fray...but first you have to actually get the Presidency...

And that means going after these creeps with a bludgeon.

The gloves MUST stay off...

[Kahuna]

33. Gore put on blinders and never addressed any of the slander..

Hence we have bush. 'Nuff said. You can't play nice and gentlemanly with this crowd. They will leave huge bulldozer tracks along your back. You have to knuckle up with them every step of the way.

[bigtree]

2. There is no such crowd

Most of the defenders have been pointing out the efforts that the Kerry campaign has made which have been ignored in the blather about weak or ineffective responses. Most of the complainers seem unaware of anything the campaign is doing. I've seem few, if any, posts from the dissenters that highlight anything the campaign is actually engaged in day to day.

I especially resent the suggestions that the Bush attacks have been more effective than Kerry's approach of staying on message (a hard hitting message at that) and not allowing his agenda to be co-opted by tit for tat responses alone.

There were five attacks on the bush record yesterday including the responses to the smearvets:

There are the responses to the swiftliars
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...

then there were statements on:

-prescriptions- "Americans Could Have Discount Prescription Prices From Canada Tomorrow if George W. Bush Would Give the Word; Bush Should Stop Tap Dancing and Support the Bipartisan Legislation"
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...

-Zell Miller Keynoting the GOP Convention
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...

-Cheney and Bush Were For A Strong Presence on the Korean Peninsula Before They Were Against It, Says Kerry Campaign
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...

-Kerry Outlines Health Care Plan to Bring Down Costs for Families, Strengthen the Economy, Create Jobs; Report Shows Skyrocketing Health Costs Have Led to Job Loss
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?ReleaseID ...

Were you aware of these and did you do anything to further the efforts of the campaign? Were your efforts equal to your criticisms of our nominee? Did you spend more time attacking the Kerry campaign for what you view as an unsatisfactory response to the smears than you did in echoing the attacks on the bush record that were engineered by the Kerry camp?

[Guaranteed]

6. Wow...do the Repukes just have better

news releases than we do, or what? :P

[JI7]

11. no, the media just isn't liberal as they claim it is

remember, the campaign IS responding, but the problem is the media wont report it. kerry challenged bush to a debate on the vietnam war months ago when his service was being attacked. how many here knew about it ?

[bigtree]

21. I don't think so

I don't believe that most voters think so. Folks may enjoy the food fight, but most are desperate for someone who will actually address the issues and concerns that most affect them.

[jean]

41. Bravo, bigtree!

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. this was going to be a bad month for us no matter what

September will be better.

[Kahuna]

34. We don't need for * to get a pre-convention bounce on top of..

his likely post convention bounce. Now is the time to knock him off his stride.

[Guaranteed]

4. I think his plan was to wait.

I think he KNEW that he had to respond eventually, he just wanted Bush to go far enough in on this to really be able to link him to it.

[michigandem2]

5. i think you are right...

but I also believe this month was SUPPOSED to suck for Kerry..limited funds...RNC right around the corner...lots of money coming from Bush camps...

the debates will be a wonderful change of pace...I can't wait for those..I wish they were sooner

[jean]

7. Kerry's approach

to this, and everything else, has been (gasp!) nuanced.

Do you think he is reacting because you told him to?

The man is our champion. Give him his due. Why don't we get busy helping the effort instead of bickering among ourselves.

[readmylips]

8. Swift Liers gave Kerry free Press....

Kerry is still head in the polls. Maybe it is good that the criminal bushes charged at Kerry full force. Now Kerry can fight back, full force. Kerry can now attack bush on how deceitful and crooked he is and for fact, use bush's won 150million character assassination Ads against him. Kerry can turn this into a win-win.

[senseandsensibility]

15. He CAN of course

but I have already heard some on this board this morning saying that *'s military record is off limits. That's who this post is addressed to!

[KittyWampus]

30. Really? Then Why Didn't You Make That Clear

by actually SAYING that in your originial post?

[Kahuna]

36. Kerry has said that *'s military records where off limits. Remember

when Michael Moore made it an issue? I just repeated what Kerry said. And honestly, the voters already know by now that * was AWOL. They apparently don't care. So why keep beating a dead horse?That's old news. There's not much more mileage to get out of that.

[shivaji]

46. If * brags about his National Guard service at the coming RNC,

he is burned toast! My guess is he will go out of his way to
not bring it up, to bury it from being an issue in the media.

[markus]

9. Several thoughts

There was a post elsewhere from a former Kerry staffer (Senate campaigns), pointing out his history of using a "rope-a-dope" strategy when attacked. His returning fire on the Swift Boat veterans this week was pointed to as consistent with that past practice.

Two, Kerry should appear above the fray and Presidential. However, without MoveOn.org, there would be no effective surrogate voice attacking the Swiftboaters and Bush.

At the same time, the Big Heads in teh Kerry campaign--watching people like Chris Matthews chew up and spit out the Swiftboaters adn their surrogates--might have thought action unnecessary. I think they're living in an echo chamber. People in swing states seeing the Swift Boat ads are not necessarily watching Crossfire or Hardball.

As someone who did the state comm director for a national campaign once, what I'd like to know is what was being done in the states where the ads were running. That's more important that what was being done nationally.

Finally: Nice Guys Finish Last. I'm sorry- DemConsultant and all the other Big Heads--but somebody has to out Chenney-ing Bush and his campaign more effectively than we are now. MoveOn.org might be helpful in some ways, but there needs to be a more orchestrated (in commmunication with the campaign) surrogate response.

Who is out there booking James Carville into every Rush-wannabe local talk show host for a half-hour of eating the host's and Swiftboater's lunch? What is going on at that critical level of anti-spin?

[Kahuna]

37. Crossfire and Hardball reach 1 million out of 100 million voters..

Somebody do the math. :eyes:

In other words, Crossfire and Hardball don't make that much of a dent in public opinion. They already preach to the chiors.

[JI7]

10. there is no "play nice" crowd

the campaign IS responding to attacks, very forcefully. but the media just doesn't report it. how is it the campaign's fault if the media wont report it ?

you can say he should run ads, but if they ran ads to every right wing attack they would have been out of money long time ago.

what is the point in being ahead in the polls right now if you have no money left for later on as we get closer to election time ?

[Philostopher]

45. Another thing to consider.

Kerry and Bush* both are targeting 'swing states' right now. I live in one of them, and I can say that Kerry addresses the issues people are begging him to address -- often in a very satisfactory way -- and the local media do, quite often, cover what he says. If the nationals can't be arsed to come and listen, or to import local news coverage via wire reports, he is addressing these things. The campaign can't, however, control national media coverage. The campaigns to get CNN to recognize this may or may not help -- I suppose it's worth a try to write or call to ask for more coverage of local events.

[geek tragedy]

12. Kerry has won several tough elections, including the Democratic primaries.

He's no Dukakis. Dukakis was the dork in the tank who couldn't muster a single emotion when asked about how he would feel about someone raping and murdering his wife. Kerry is the guy in the gunboat who's personally killed people for less.

Kerry simply can't let Bush dictate the terms of the debate through his various smears and flak. Kerry's job is to stay on message and point out why he would be a better president. When he responds to the smears, the response should be clear, primed for the media, and delivered with mucho gusto.

Which is what happened here.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. If You Addded An R To Your Screen Name You'd Have The Story Of Dukakis's

Campaign?

[geek tragedy]

19. Dukakis lost people's respect by letting Bush bitchslap him

My hardcore liberal Dem father took his Dukakis bumper sticker off his vehicle two months before the election.

The most important message Kerry can send is that he will fight back, damn it.

If he can't stand up to Baby Bush, how can he stand up to bin Laden?

Yesterday, he fought back. And hard. That's how it's done.

[JI7]

20. he had been standing up even before and fighting back

the fact that those who seem to know so much didn't know about it says a lot. check out bigtree's posts.

it was the media who would never report what he said and his response to attacks.

he could have used his money to run ads to respond, but if he did that he would have been out of money long time ago.

it's part of the strategy to know when and how to use your money since it's limited. especially when the republicans got a lot more.

[geek tragedy]

23. Dukakis was incapable of projecting strength and vigor.

The media devoured him.

Talking about "competence" may thrill middle managers and accountants, but it won't impress the voters.

[JI7]

25. Kerry is tall and athletic and a combat veteran

these are things that are often shown and talked about.

[geek tragedy]

27. A big fight in the debates

will be whether they are sitting or standing.

[jean]

42. if they sit bush' s chair will have to have a big cushion to get him up

to Kerry's height, sitting. Even if it's from the chest up, Kerry is the larger man, more expansive in his body language AND Bush has that no neck look.

[Francine Frensky]

14. I thought it was brilliant myself

I, too, was getting really frustrated with the lack of response, but I think it was a case of trying to cast a wide net. Or don't shoot until you can see the whites of their eyes, or something like that.

Look, it's a Big Deal that Bush is on record in that Larry King interview REFUSING TO CONDEMN the ads. That's a great clip to show, and all the networks can show that. It's a Big Deal that all the republican op ed people who bought into the Liars for Bush story can now be CALLED TO THE TURF and questioned for honesty and made to look stupid.

Personally, I'm impressed that they had the patience and secretiveness to keep this under wraps before pulling the rug out from under the republicans, just when they were getting all comfy with this story.

[Democat]

16. There is a new Swift Boat Liars ad out today - another 2 weeks?

Hopefully we won't have to sit through another two weeks of unanswered attacks on Kerry.

Anyone who doesn't think this is going to hurt Kerry if it continues for more weeks is extremely optimistic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x641115

[TheRovingGourmet]

17. Here, to not forcefully defend your honor is seen as a

weakness. I'm not saying Kerry is weak, as he has who knows how many layers of advisers to work through, but he could have, and could be, more forceful in his own defense.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Your Premise Is False....

We all want to fire back....


We all realize this is a manichean struggle.....


But all this sky is falling bullshit can only sap the will to fight...

[Kahuna]

39. So you're saying that if we feel that the campaign is getting hammered and

the campaign isn't responding forceably we should hold our peace? You hold your peace if you think that is the best way to go. I will not hold my peace if I think bush is gaining ground. If you don't like it we will just have to agree to disagree.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Fight Back .... Don't Whine....

There's no whining in politics...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. I think it was great for Kerry not to waste his money and let the press

take the veil off the Swiftboat crowd which is now beginning to occur.

[JI7]

24. and if it doesn't then

it's good to have the money be used to defend himself as we get closer to election time rather than using it up now and not have anything left then.

after all, the republicans are going to continue lying about him and attacking him no matter what. it's not as if they will stop after he runs an ad to defend himself.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. That's The Whole Point....

This attack was inevitable...


The Kerry team had a dilemma on their hands. By ignoring the charge they risk that it hangs out there in the political ether... By attacking the charge the more play they give it and the harder they attack the charge the more play the charge will get...

[JI7]

31. right

some seem to think it's so simple . that you run an ad and it will be all over.

but it's just one part within a larger overall campaign. many who believe it are those who WANT to believe it. and then there are some who may believe it but they don't care and it wont have anything to do with who they vote for as president. if they have lost their job and are unemployed or have a worse job without much pay and other similar problems, and they find kerry's plans appealing and something that they view as improving their lives, they most likely will vote for him even if they believe the smear boat liars or at least it contributes to questions about kerry's service.

[Kahuna]

40. I like the way Kerry "eventually" addressed it yesterday. I love that

he laid it in bush's lap. I will concede that it was a better strategy to wait until they had the goods on the bushes to make their move. But, hindsight on the part of all of us is 20/20. None of us knew that they were getting the goods together to expose the SBLs and tie them in with the bushies. My point is, it was natural for some of us to panic. As we have watched many elections over the years and have seen how these things play out. Hell! 2000 will tell you all you need to know about how something like this can get out of hand. I think it is stupid and unnecessary for others who disagree with us to childishly deride us.

[Padraig18]

28. False assumption.

I never assumed or advocated NOT fighting back; what *I* said (and still say) is silly is flailing away madly at every Republican utterance like some punch-drunk has-been. There IS a difference!

:wtf:

[Padraig18]

48. *crickets* n/t

[KharmaTrain]

29. Know Where To Pick Your Fights

When the light was on Bunnypants and his military non-records, Kerry played it right to stay above the noise and let the media...or whatever segment was not in Rove's pocket...to do their thing. The same about Abu Graihb. By playing high road, Kerry could let the controversy swirl around Bunnypants and gain in both ratings and stature.

I was and am still critical of how this SwiftFreepers mess was handled. At the outset, Kerry was right in staying above the noise...but surrogates such as Max Cleland, Admiral Crowe and the "Band Of Brothers" were, and are, still too slow to respond. Their job here was to be the surrogates against these charges...that we knew were coming last spring. Instead, the Kerry campaign tried to minimalize it as "hearsay" and pooh-pooh, while O'Neill went attack, attack, attack and the mess has put Kerry on the defensive.

The only way for Kerry now is to "blast" out of this rathole...and confront both the machine that is manufacturing the lies, but turn the tables and put the focus on this regime's military "past" and present. If this happens, Kerry wins big...if not, it's going to be a lot more difficult than it should have been.

[Kahuna]

32. There are still calling us hand wringers. Who cares? I don't care

what they think as long as Kerry wins. And if I think the campaign is off track, I'm going to howl like hell.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[DU GrovelBot]

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[LoZoccolo]

44. What? Dean? Who?

Don't hear as much about that guy as we used to...

[senseandsensibility]

47. You're addressing that to me?

I honestly don't think I've typed Dean's name once on this board. I'm a Kerry supporter.

[LoZoccolo]

51. Yeah but that was Dean's strategy, what you propose.

Or at least, that's what the media emphasized; the rest got lost in the shuffle. I actually was a Dean supporter, but that was back when I was a checker-player. I think he plowed the way for defeating Bush*, but there were a lot of people in the center or independants that just didn't like his campaigning. Give the media some blood and that's all they'll cover. I think Kerry's trying to do just enough to neutralize this and go on to a positive agenda, where he as a challenger has an advantage because a lot of people can't say that they're better off than they were four years ago.

[A_Possum]

49. Terms like "the Play Nice 'Chess' Crowd...

sound exactly like Rove.

You getting the talking point from him?

[senseandsensibility]

50. Yes I'm a traitor

I love chimpwad and Rove. You guessed it. LOL. The ONLY thing I admire about Rove is his desire to win. And at this point, yes, we do need an equivalent on our side. The only difference is our counterpart won't have to lie. The truth is brutal enough if we're brave enough to use it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I Wouldn't Piss Down Rove's Throat If His Heart Was On Fire...

I want to attack not commiserate......

[senseandsensibility]

54. Well, as someone asked me in another thread,

but it was locked before I could respond, "Fight who?" There are people here who really don't get it. I'll spell it out... FIGHT BUSH.
I know you understand this; just venting. :)

[A_Possum]

53. Why do you think the truth is not being used?

What you are really talking about is not the truth, which the media thinks is too boring to report, but the kind of Rovian National Enquirer gossip that they splash all over the front page.

There's plenty of truth being said by the campaign, but IT'S NOT REPORTED, and even HERE, all we do is yah-yah-yah on and on about their lying talking points.

Most of the time here, when there's a topic about the truth of Kerry's record, it sinks like a stone here cause people are bored by it. There's a good one sinking now, about Kerry's work on taking down the BCCI bank, and nobody has anything to say about it.

So I guess Rove's genius is mainly his knack for throwing out something that would go down well in a hair salon. Or DU.

And I love DU, but I'm getting frustrated I must say.