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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:18 PM
Original message
The Vietnam War WAS immoral
Many criticisms of John Kerry's military record seem essentially rooted in the fact that, despite his meritorious service, he nevertheless "betrayed" his fellow soldiers by criticizing the war when he returned.

While people focus on the back and forth between vets on Kerry's decorations, few seem willing to debate an issue that I believed had been resolved long ago. The Vietnam War WAS immoral -- and John Kerry was correct to criticize it AND the nation's actions in prosecuting that war.

One has only to briefly review the history of the Vietnam conflict to come to this conclusion. Vietnam, as a French colony, was an ally during WWII; when Communists began agitating, annoying and finally militarily defeating the French, the U.S. took it upon itself to make Vietnam a proxy in its larger "war" with the U.S.S.R. and China. To do so, the U.S. had to surrender the moral high ground on any number of points, three of which are sufficient to cite:
1. The interference in the affairs of sovereign nations without the justification of supporting vital US interests. There was no trade or military value in Vietnam as a buffer to Soviet or Chinese aggression; indeed the interference in Vietnam could be argued as making the "domino theory" a fait accompli, more suited to Communist strategic interest than American.
2. The South Vietnamese government was riddled with corruption, with an officer corps at least as vile and degenerate as the NVA and steadfastly incompetent in logistical and tactical capability - despite nearly 20 years of active support by the US. The quick collapse of the South Vietnamese following US evacuation is proof of its military ineptitude. The summary execution of a suspected NVA soldier on the streets of Saigon after the Tet Offensive is eloquent testimony to the contempt for human life held by SV officials.
3. Two US administrations used deception and subterfuge to escalate the conflict in direct contradiction to both the Democratic idea we were allegedly fostering abroad and to subvert and compromise the legislative process enshrined by the Constitution. There was no attack on US vessels in the Gulf of Tonkin, whose presence there in any case were in support of active military operations making them legitimate targets. Expansions into Laos and Cambodia did not only violate Item ONE of the above, but were also done without the knowledge of the Electorate and violated the Constitutional oversight responsibilities of the Congress.

It is never popular to criticize actions of the U.S. government, especially actions taken to suppress a foe as villainous as the Communist "Evil Empire." Nevertheless, this nation stands for the rule of law and Democracy. If we play the game of fostering such beliefs abroad, we should and must play by the rules printed on the cover of the box. It is the duty of every American to hold his government to account. People who witness firsthand the excesses of government have an especial duty to do so.

Mr. Kerry is unjustly lumped with other war critics who, often benignly, played into the hands of aggressors. Many may be unwilling to impose a clear line of demarcation between critics, but it is necessary to do so -- if only to make equally distinct the line over which the government must not step.

All wars produce atrocities; war itself is by definition the failure of civilization to resolve disputes. It is no treason to point out that the corrosive nature of the war fostered the native brutality in US soldiery that is common to all soldiers in all conflicts. In fact, in the case of Vietnam, the immorality of the conflict may have worsened such behavior. The duties of war are grim and weigh heavily on the conscience of ordinarily peaceful men. It is easier for soldiers to accept these duties and behave professionally if they are led by others who stand on firm moral principles.

Mr. Kerry did his country a service when he criticized the war. It was important and necessary that he speak out. It is equally important that all who lived through those times report that he WAS right and that the war WAS wrong. Many who read this board are too young to know the facts of Vietnam; many of the electorate are too easily persuaded that the US is always right, despite clear evidence that it has, on occasion, been very wrong. Pointing out the rare excesses of government make them even rarer and create a more perfect union.

The individual actions of a single day that resulted in decorations to several soldiers may be in dispute. Memories do fade. Facts, however, do not. Vietnam was an immoral war, as shameful to American history as this manufactured war in Iraq, and for many of the same reasons. Mr. Kerry, at least, sees this fact while many other political leaders do not. That alone, in my view, justifies his eventual election.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. John Kerry betrayed no one. He related what he had heard about the war
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. I guess these wingnut VETS think it is "christian" to cover up
atrocities rather then expose them and do somethng about it. what complete and utter evil assholes.
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4morewars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well said Gary7 !!!!
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lottie244 Donating Member (903 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you very much!!!
I only the truth could be re-told.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. U.S. Soldiers Were Commanded to:
Burn villages; poison food and water supplies; kill if a villager moved (regardless of age). This is all documented and Kerry and other Swift Boat members acknowledge their part in this.

It's hard for GOP politicians to see these facts, they never went to Nam. You don't see Powell or McCain speaking out against Kerry.

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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hear! Hear!
I started a thread this morning with this post:

These are the asshole variety of Vietnam veteran who still call the Vietnamese people “gooks”. They think the war could have been won if they just had a little more firepower and agent orange.

Even the hawkish Secretary of Defense (1961-1968) Robert Mcnamara concedes that the war was mistake. The Pentagon Papers proved that the escalation of the war was based on a pack of lies (The Tonkin Gulf Incident).

There were lots of atrocities committed by our troops, just as there are in Iraq today. Kerry’s testimony regarding the atrocities and his repudiation of them are to be commended, not condemned.

These guys are making shit up to discredit Kerry because they are so stupid that they think the war on the Vietnamese People was waged for reasons that were justified. They hate Kerry because he spoke out against the war.

I have a lot of respect for Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I have nothing but contempt for The Swiftboat Assholes for Bush.

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Liberal Gramma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Let's look at the record:
Kerry went to Vietnam, in fact he volunteered for Vietnam. He volunteered for Swift Boat duty. He was a decorated hero. But...he was bothered by what he saw and heard. Rather than run away from it, he took the courageous step of protesting the war and going before Congress to testify to the immorality of the war. Both his sets of actions, combat service and protest, show him a man of profound conscience and courage.

Bush wanted glory without action, so he had strings pulled to jump him in front of more qualified candidates for flight school in the National Guard. After a couple of years of training part-time, even that became too arduous and he blew off the rest of his service. His actions show him to be an arrogant coward, self-centered, and no patriot. A man of straw compared to a man of iron.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Also didn't they almost can General
Westmoreland because of his part in Vietnam?

Kerry's actions in protesting the war was no different than what Darby did recently in turning over the cd with the torture pictures on it. Both are commendable actions by a soldier who saw wrong-doing and did something about it. They have my atta-boys.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. And it was preventable. Ho Chi Mingh tried to get a meeting with Woodrow
Wilson during the Verseilles Conference following Germany's surrender in World War I. Mingh was a young lawyer, who wanted the U.S. to try to influence the French to leave Vietnam in order for his country to attain its independence like the Balkan countries. Wilson refused.

Mingh remained on the message throughout the decades. He was asking for no more than Gandhi asking for Britain to leave India. He was characterized as a "terrorist" in his own right when Vietnam split as a result of an inevitable civil war.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. More:
Ho fought as an allie to the US during WW2. He was referred to as "our little man in the jungle" by US MI. Towards the end of the war, it appears FDR planned to recognize Ho's government, but of course, he died. Truman, who had briefly belonged to the KKK as a young man, did not believe that the southeast Asian people were "ready" for democracy, and so he helped in the effort to reintroduce French rule, and thus the beginning of our war.

One of the single best books on this is "Vietnam: A History in Documents," which I loaned to a friend around 1988, or I'd quote the specific documents. It's a fascinating read.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. The thing about the ears is the truth!
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 07:31 AM by Hubert Flottz
I knew a guy who wore some around his neck on a chain for a long time! The guy passed away three years ago, because of the agent orange he was sprayed with in Nam! He was very screwed up in the head when he got back from Nam! He was a hard core doper the rest of his days!

He was a smart all American kid from a church going family when he got drafted! I never saw that war change anyone for the better! Did you?

I always think about this song when I think of him!

Sam Stone
John Prine

Sam Stone came home,
To his wife and family
After serving in the conflict overseas.
And the time that he served,
Had shattered all his nerves,
And left a little shrapnel in his knee.
But the morphine eased the pain,
And the grass grew round his brain,
And gave him all the confidence he lacked,
With a Purple Heart and a monkey on his back.

Chorus:
There's a hole in daddy's arm where all the money goes,
Jesus Christ died for nothin' I suppose.
Little pitchers have big ears,
Don't stop to count the years,
Sweet songs never last too long on broken radios.
Mmm....

http://www.jpshrine.org/lyrics/songs/jpsamstone.html
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. I remember that song!
So powerful and sad.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
12. Excellent post, GarySeven!
Reading it, the thought crossed my mind that perhaps this SBV debacle has a silver lining. It is obvious that MANY still fail to recognize the horror that was Viet Nam. How many Vets from that adventure are living out of dumpsters three decades later? The names on the "Wall" are the tip of the iceberg when one considers the devastation THAT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. So many "survivors" of that conflict never really made it back... :cry:
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I know a Vietnam vet who "came home" but never returned.
He is an angry and insane alcoholic with guns who breaks into his family's home to steal items to sell to get more beer. The family is torn. They won't commit him (mistake, IMHO) and instead, they lock their doors. They won't force him off their property, so he sleeps on a mattress in an open shed on their property. His brother takes him around with his landscaping business, but this guy either breaks the machinery or is too weak to work. The VFW tried to offer him assistance but he refuses as the VA Hospital and Home has rules about no drinking.

BTW, imagine this guy, perpetually drunk, screaming at the top of his lungs in public about how W is saving this country and Clinton should be shot for having sex in the White House. Another veteran for Bush.

This is really a sad story. I knew him before he went to the dark side.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Defining moment for all who served.
I've never been in combat.
Like W*, I spent most of the war years in the air national guard.
Unlike W*, I served my entire commitment and I actually did volunteer for Viet Nam. At the time, I really wanted to go and be a genuine kick-ass fighter pilot. I'm very thankful now that I was never accepted for a tour in Viet Nam.

To a degree, I can understand where veterans who dislike Kerry are coming from. They still believe, MUST BELIEVE, that they fought the good fight for honorable (national policy) reasons. I believe they did serve honorably, unfortunately for a dishonest "cause".

For a soldier to admit to himself that he had been sent off to war by his country, risked life and limb, was subjected to the unimagineable horrors of war, saw many of his friends killed and maimed, and then to learn years later that this was all for naught is too much for many to come to terms with. I can sure understand that.

That Kerry was able to learn how he and his comrades in arms had been terribly duped by their own government, come to terms with that, and work to stop a senseless war tells me a lot about his intellect, morals, and true courage. The man has my deepest respect.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Trof, you nail the central issue.
DENIAL. The inability to cope with having been LIED TO makes people deny the truth that stares them in the face. The American "compliance" with the atrocity in Iraq is an extension. The intractable problem of the "isms" is yet another...
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Thanks. It's the old "moccasin" saying.
"Don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his moccasins."

I've tried to put myself in their place and understand how they feel. I'd feel anger, betrayal, and frustration against a faceless all-powerful government. Maybe I'd transfer those feelngs to the people (protesters) who were trying, in my eyes, to make my service and sacrifice somehow 'invalid'.

My government is right, they HAVE to be right. So it's all these anti-American, draft card burning, long-haired hippy freaks who are doing this to me. Now, at last I have a chance to strike back against one of my own who turned against me and became a traitor. I can imagine the rage, no matter how misplaced.
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
16. You are so correct!
I just wish Kerry could proudly defend his record as a peace activist as loudly as he proclaims himself a war hero.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Hear that
I wish he'd just stand by what he said in 1971 and let others say he's a war hero.

This thing about Vietnam is just blowing me away, as if it was last year, as if it was this righteous enterprise in which nothing bad happened, as if criticizing it is the obvious way to win national public office, as if most of us over 40 didn't personally know at least one vet who was completely fucked up by it. I dated one, and I've met others, and I know another one who isn't fucked up but saw others commit war crimes (if he didn't participate).

Why are people so unthinking? If I'm still around in 30 years and people are talking about Iraq the way they are about Vietnam right now, I think it will be the thing that makes me croak.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kerry's statements when he was part of VVAW are problematic.
Edited on Sat Aug-21-04 09:08 AM by robcon
The problematic statements have nothing to do with whether the war was right or not. The problem isn't that he was anti-war, but that he smeared a lot of American soldiers, including several friends of mine, when he accused them of routine atrocities/war crimes.

Kerry has to answer the questions about those statements. He's said they were "excessive." I think he has to be more forthcoming about them.
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. The atrocities were widespread
Obviously many of those who served have a need to see themselves as part of a noble cause. And obviously not every soldier committed atrocities.

But a combination of factors-- the youth and immaturity of the soldiers-- the average age was 19, as opposed to 26 in WWII-- the traumatic nature of their losses, the fact that the enemy could be anyone-- man, woman, child or supposed ally- did result in a large number of atrocities. Those who deny it are rewriting history.
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neebob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Why do those who didn't commit atrocities feel he accused them?
That's what I don't get.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. John Kerry did NOT
I repeat, DID NOT "ACCUSE" ANYONE OF ANYTHING. As spokesman it was his RESPONIBILITY to report the information he gathered. See Hubert's post below and stop conning yourself.
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GarySeven Donating Member (898 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Kerry has NOTHING to explain. YOU however ...
has a duty to testify to this generation and the ones to follow that the Vietnam war was unjust, immoral and an example of what can happen when nationalists take control of our political process.

Pointing out atrocities committed in the name of such an enterprise is an excellent way to stop it. When two dogs are fighting, a good way to stop them from tearing each other apart is a bucket of cold water. Kerry and all the other vets who saw atrocities or informed the public they were going on tossed a big swimming pool of ice water onto an American public that had been stirred up by false doctrine poured out by lying administrations.

Do you know what a war criminal is? It's someone who knows what war is, knows when it is immoral, and then FAILS to stop it. Those who fail to stop immoral wars take the taint upon themselves. Those who fail to take the message to succeeding generations, so that further immoral wars may be prevented, are the greatest war criminals of all.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
20. Vietnam atrocities revealed in report
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-04 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
25. Very thoughtful post GarySeven
Wars can drive normally decent human beings to commit horrible acts. To stifle those who are brave enough to speak the truth is to put our soldiers once again into a position where they will do things that go against the grain of everything that they have been taught.

To point out the grotesque actions of those who wage wars is not so much a criticism of the individuals, but of the system that allows our country to enter immoral wars and of the chain of command that turns a blind eye to the atrocities being committed.

We should be questioning the morality of the people that are making the decisions to send our troops off to wage war, and not the people who dare to tell the truth about what is being done in our name.
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