O'Neill dares Kerry to sue him for libel

[Walt Starr]

I know this is from Newsmax, but if O'Neill did dare him, Kerry should be free to sue:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/8/22/154608.shtml

[NMDemDist2]

1. link please?

[cynatnite]

2. Didn't O'Neill say that on Hardball? n/t

[fdr_hst_fan]

4. Yes-link, please-

also, who IS this O'Neill guy, anyway? :shrug:

[Walt Starr]

7. Sorry, I put the wrong URL in

It's up now

[gollygee]

3. I think it's pretty hard to win a libel case if you're a public figure

like running for president. It's much easier if you're just an everday citizen.

[JPJones]

5. Rassman should sue for libel n/t

[gollygee]

8. Yeah he'd have a better shot

but even then, by speaking at the convention, he's put himself in the public eye. It would be better for someone who hasn't spoke up yet but was involved to sue.

[Warpy]

12. You need two things to prove libel if you're a public figure

First you need to prove the statements are all untrue, which Kerry will have a very easy time doing. He's got the entire paper trail on his side. Next, you have to prove malicious intent. That's where the interviews, the commercials, and the timing of the book all come in. I think he'll have a fairly easy time of this, too.

There is no way they can pass this off as satire, and there is no way they can pass this off as bogus infomation given to them by other parties, which they innocently printed. These are the two things that have torpedoed cases brought against the Enquirer and magazines like Hustler.

I think a libel suit will be a slam-dunk for Kerry, and when the whole story of the funding is brought out, it also may make him richer than his wife. There are some very deep pockets behind this group, and Kerry needs to sue them all.

[trogdor]

28. SUE THE BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!

[volosong]

38. WINNING ISN'T THE ISSUE

O'Neill wants to sucker Kerry into an interminable lawsuit which would just serve to further highlight the smut.

That way, O'Neill would have many more rounds of doing the talk shows and pundits.

He's just trying to get more mileage out of a dying topic.

I can't believe that Kerry or his advisors would fall for the prank.

[blondeatlast]

6. He's already called on the publisher (Regnery, I believe) of

"Unfit for Command" to pull the remaining copies.

It's happened before.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Al Frankin says that the more pathological a liar you are, the harder..

it is to sue you for libel. (Quote from OutFoxed.)


That makes O'Neill libel-proof.

[Ducks In A Row]

10. same reason bill o'reilly is suit-proof

hell, even jeremy glick can't sue me, and o'reilly has done serious damamge to that man's life.

[BillZBubb]

11. There is no way Kerry could win a libel suit against O'Neill.

He would have to prove that not only did O'Neill lie about him, but that O'Neill knew it was a lie. Since O'Neill only repeated the lies others told him, he will say he believed them. End of case.

It would be a bad idea to give this creep any more of a forum. Just document his lies, slam him at every opportunity, then move on.

[JDPriestly]

14. Rassman might be able to sue

Although he is a public figure, Rassman might be able to sue if some of O'Neill's statements clearly contradict the public record.

Some of vets who did not come forward before or at the convention might have an even easier time suing.

See http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-rood22aug22,1,6879016.story?coll=la-home-headlines

The author of this article is a news reporter who suggests that the Swift Boat lies libel veterans who participated in the Feb. 28, 1969 events and who have never stepped into the public eye.

[JerseygirlCT]

19. Isn't there some obligation to check the information though

before passing it along in the public forum like that? Can O'Neill just hand on any old tripe and claim someone else told him it was so?

[blondeatlast]

22. Basically yes (re question 2).

There is no real standard for classifying something as 'non-fiction.'

Basically, if a author/publisher/agent wants to call a book 'non-fiction' there is no prohibition against it. It helps your cause to have citations, but they are hardly necessary.

Dewey and Library of Congress regard any book labeled as non-fiction as just that.

'Non-fiction' books HAVE been relabeled fiction due to book industry/library pressure in the past, however; the most notable somewhat recent book being "The Celestine Prophecy" which was indeed released as a nonfiction title but in later editions and has been reclassified by both cataloging systems as fiction.

They used to call it a fraud; remember Clifford Irving's Howard Hughes' will?

edit: clarity in SL

[reprehensor]

13. Libel cases are really hard to win.

First, you have to prove that the libel has had a serious effect, like financial loss or other.

It's too soon to file a libel suit. O'Neill is just being an ass.

If Kerry loses the election, O'Neill better hope Mr Perry still wants to support him.

On the other hand, in Britain, you just have to take someone to court, claim libel, and if the defendant can't prove his/her claims, they will be out some serious coin.

[DU9598]

15. screw libel

Have a district or county attorney where he filed his affidavit prosecute him for perjury. That is much easier to prove and some jail time may do the bastard some good.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. Kerry would have difficulty suing and O'Neill knows it

Kerry is a public personality, so the rules are different. If O'Neill were to say that I was not entitled to any award I won in the service, then I'd have a easy time getting money from him in court. All I would have to prove is that O'Neill's statements are false.

Kerry would have an easy time suing O'Neill, too, if he weren't a US Senator and a candidate for President. As it is, Kerry would not only have to prove that O'Neill's statements are false, but that O'Neill knows they are false. That's a a lot harder to do.

There's a good reason for this, of course. We need to be able to discuss people like Kerry (or Bush) without fear of them using the courts to bludgeon dissent. The downside is that this opens people like Kerry (or Bush) to slander. One can say almost anything one wants about them with impunity, as long as one does not know it with certainty to be false.

Personally, I have no doubt that O'Neill's statements are false and that O'Neill knows they are false. Still, proving the second part of that in court would be another matter.

[Cuban_Liberal]

17. Suing is different than getting a judgment.

Kerry can sue, obviously, bet it's unlikely that he would get a judgment, since he's a public figure.

[Monte Carlo]

18. I'm not sure... little would draw more attention to it more than a lawsuit

Of course, there is the "if it's wrong, why hasn't he sued" angle as well, but it's basically becoming common knowledge that O'Neill's book isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

[JDPriestly]

20. I question some of the legal information posted here.

For example, when was the test of "actual malice" in public figure libel cases replaced by "malicious intent"? A post on the relevant law would be too long and too boring.

In my off-hand opinion, several people probably could sue. That is to say, they probably could state a cause of action, and the court wouldn't throw out the case in the initial stages. As someone pointed out, whether they would win and what they would win are different matters. Lawsuits are much costlier and riskier than most people realize and are often won and lost on procedural and evidentiary issues, which don't always favor the good guys. That is why, even though some of the individuals on Kerry's side could sue, they probably won't.

On the other hand,if a lawsuit were filed, it would be one of the most interesting cases in recent times. The facts and parties are straight out of Greek tragedy. It is likely that secrets would be revealed in discovery that would destroy some of the not so innocent parties and deeply embarrass many who have made statements that were careless and unfounded but, nevertheless, untrue.

The Greeks thought they knew about hubris, but some of the members of the Republican Party could teach them a thing or two . . . .

[Gin]

21. what about defamation of character? He basically called all the vets

involved with Kerry liars. That's not the same a libel is it?

[0rganism]

42. Findlaw's definition of "actual malice"

actual malice

1 : malice proved by evidence to exist or have existed in one that inflicts unjustified harm on another: as

a : an intent to injure or kill

b : "malice § 2"
(called also express malice, malice in fact)

2 a : the knowledge that defamatory statements esp. regarding a public figure are false

b : "reckless disregard of the truth"
more

[nonkultur]

23. To prevent Kerry from being president = malicious intent

Very stong basis for a lawsuit.

[JDPriestly]

39. Are you thinking of malice, which can be a basis for punitives?

"Actual malice" as an element in a public figure libel case is defined differently from the malice or "intentional malice" that may entitle a party to punitive damages. Read the Supreme Court decision, New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. 254 and cases that refer to it as an authority on FindLaw.

[Cha]

24. john scuzbag oneil just wants more free publicity.

[featherman]

25. Obviously the reptile O'neill knows Kerry can't realistically

sue him and wouldn't anyway. Dream on. This is just another cheap trick to influence the rubes and boobs. (i.e. "See...Kerry won't even sue me for libel 'cause he knows what I have said is true").

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

26. Yeah he'd really love for Kerry to jump into the tar baby with both fists,

eh? JK couldn't win a suit like this for reasons noted. Never going to happen.

[AngryAmish]

27. Kerry should kick him in the balls instead

[bringbackfdr]

34. What balls?

Can a eunuch have balls?

[Surface Map]

29. Then frigging do it

I'm about to go over the edge. I have gotten to the pointwhere I don't give a crap if the book is completely true. Sue his ass if for no other reason than to make it look like your mad and you aren't going to take it anymore.

If they want to roll around in the mud, let's jump in with them.

SUE HIS ASS OR LOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

33. Kerry is too smart to fall for something like that. But I have to say,

this business has me mad enough that I do often think how fun it would be to see JK clean shrubya's clock, mano y mano, with fisticuffs.

And you know he would.

[Sparkly]

30. He is such a snake

He knows Kerry can't really do that -- he wouldn't win and it'd distract him.

[alcuno]

31. O'Neil is trying to get Kerry to attack him instead of *.

Has nothing to do with a lawsuit.

[sundancekid]

36. that's nice and insightful wisdom ... they deal in destruction, and

their currency is distraction!

[Cocoa]

32. Kerry is correctly focusing on Bush

he realizes that O'Neill hasn't even been a human for over 30 years, he chose to turn himself into a killer robot for Nixon, and now an even worse president is dusting him off for another mission. Kerry is going after the guy with the remote control.

[RamboLiberal]

35. Anyone catch that liar out on the evening news

Can't remember whether it was ABC or NBC holding up his book asking why Kerry isn't answering the bunch of lies in his book?

[Southern Patriot]

37. Tactically & strategically it'd be a mistake to sue.

It'll just give the press and 'Pug noise machine an excuse to keep the issue alive.

Kerry needs to keep his mouth shut and let his surrogates carry the fight from here on.

[JDPriestly]

40. The Kerry ad featuring McCain hits the target better

than a lawsuit would.

[nomatrix]

41. Sorry Walt, but

He's a lawyer who clerked for Rehnquist, nominated for judge by Bush Sr. A waste of time for Kerry.

OTOH, I was looking for Ala. national guard soldiers who served with Bush on the NET. I did find 2 who said they worked directly with the pilots (I forget what job they did) but knew all of the pilots personally there were only 200. They said they never knew anyone who saw him show up for duty and they asked everyone they knew connected with maintenance, etc. They knew he was coming there and where on the lookout to schmooze with him. Nada. None. Zilch.

Watch for it when you search POP-UP hell will rain down, even with a blocker.