Who Will Ultimately Benefit From The Swift Boat Brouhaha

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Poll question: Who Will Ultimately Benefit From The Swift Boat Brouhaha

It is my firm opinion that the worm has turned against the Swift boaters and their enablers at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue...

Their credibility is in tatters and their ties to the White House have been exposed...

Even the media arm of the GOP, Fox News is putting distance between themselves and the Swift boaters as their lies become exposed.

The fact that the junta on Pennsylvania Avenue wanted to dirty up Kerry the way they dirtied up McCain in 2000 is not in dispute....


But the mainstream media is aware of their modus operandi... When they tried to resurrect the McCain is wacko from his experience in Nam meme and apply it to Kerry it failed miserably.... Tim Russert pointed out the unsettling similarities in the attacks on the sanity of McCain and Kerry as a pattern and practice of the Bush family and their allies, campaign spokesman Ken Mehlman had no answer...

Now every time the Bush crime family and their minions attack Kerry we can just refer to them being up to their old tricks...

John Kerry's heartfelt testimony before the Senate in 1971 regarding atrocities is not helpful in the present context but the persuadables will see it for what is... It was an attack on a war that had become unwinnable and not the soldiers who were doing the fighting....

The attacks have taken us off message for awhile but ultimately Bush will be harmed from the blow back as the lies and the connections become clear.

Who will ultimately benefit for this brouhaha?

[PROGRESSIVE1]

1. What I find interesting here is that it is FOX who is distancing......

themselves from this and CNN who is STILL embracing it along with the SCUMWHORES at ABC (Stepenwhorilus, Whorwill, and Kookie Robber)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Didn't See ABC Today...

CNN is trying to ape FOX..... If they keep trying to ape FOX they might find themselves to the right of FOX without adding any viwers....


To sell your soul for gain is one thing... To sell your soul for nothing is another....


Somewhere Edward R. Murrow is laughing...

[Cha]

3. abcwhores: disney is their Bossman.

[gollygee]

4. Dunno who will win but I know who is losing from it

Veterans and the democratic process

[peacetalksforall]

6. Agree, if the O'Neill group and the cabal win it means that we

no longer have reason to keep that part of the military that awards medals - it's a fraud - if they win. A fraud resulting from a slimy distortion and implication - an implication that a military soldier could arrange their own awards and an impliation that a string of higher-ups entered into a fraud.

[TheDonkey]

5. No one, it's not going to help shrub but it's hurting our bank accounts

because we have to air these ads defending Kerry on something that is a non-issue.

If we talked about the real issues of today we'd be in the lead by +10.

[peacetalksforall]

7. Right, in the meantime, the military has lost 81 billion dollars and the

death and casualty numbers are increasing for everyone.

[Democat]

8. Am I the only one so far who voted that this hurts Kerry more than Bush?

I guess I really am out of touch with my DU comrades. :)

Here's what I see: Two weeks of anti-Kerry coverage followed by a few days of "balanced" reporting. We'll see what happens in the future - either the Swift Boat Liars will launch a new wave of attacks, which will waste more of our time defending Kerry, or they will go away.

I do not see two weeks of anti-Bush coverage in our future, but I do see two weeks of anti-Kerry coverage in our past.

I still think Kerry can win this race, but I hope he learned from this strategic mistake. He should have stopped this in the beginning instead of waiting on the polls before responding.

I also hope I'm wrong and the rest of you are right. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. A Couple Of Points....

1)The Swift Boaters shot their wad with the second ad.... Let's just call it what it is- The Traitor ad.....


This ad will only confirm the biases of the anti-Kerry voters....The persuadables will see it for what it is... An attack on an war that had become unwinnable and not the soldiers who fought it..


2) Kerry needed a clear link to the Bush campaign which was supplied by the New York Times and Bushco's own actions before he could attack.... Who would he have attacked without the Bushco link?

John O'Neil... I don't think so....


This is a battle between Kerry and AWOL...

[Surface Map]

10. I hate to admit it

but It seems obvious to me Bush is the winner big time. Selling----it is important to put doubt in the prospects mind. Two weeks of this BS and it isn't going away tommorrow.

These guys should have been put to sleep back in the Spring when they first surfaced. Another huge blunder by the Kerry campaign.

I say take off the gloves and dig up everything possible about these guys and shrub and let em have it. Give them a little taste of their own medicine.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. How Was He Going To Put It To Sleep In The Spring?

nt

[Surface Map]

12. I'll tell you this

They could have started picking them off one at at a time or in groups. Whatever. If these guys are lying and obviously they are, then why aren't we prepared to discredit them immediately instead of it dragging out. If we had to wait until the book came out, Fine but it seems there was no preperation for a response.

I swear, I can't hardly watch the news.

[TheDonkey]

13. A man on CNN admitted it, "it's august, its a slow news time"!!!!

Almost 1000 soliders dead
Millions of jobs lost and not coming back
Deficits going out of control
Iran ready to nuke
Bush is an unhinged as ever

and the media is bored, so they are going to drag out this smear as long as possible. Look at the chaos it's caused at DU, this story has star appeal, too bad it has nothing to deal with this country or our future.

We need a media that stops thinking about how to make the biggest profit and starts talking about what is affecting this nation!

I was disgusted when that guy admitted that the media was pushing this non-story just because they didn't have any other scandal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. It's Brilliant

Nobody will be talking about Bush's convention....


They will be talking about the Swiftees....

[elfin]

14. me too

Negative "works" - especially if you give it lots of free airtime on mainstream shows. Even if debunkers are present, they are not nearly as compelling as craftily crafted smear video.

This type of thing has ALWAYS worked for the Bushes - against Dukakis and Cleland - and now they are trying for an evil "trifecta' against Kerry.

I hate it - and I hate them. And since I hate to to hate, I hate them even more for making me hate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. It's Not Working....

The article in the NYT


Rood's story in the Trib....


A Swiftee on the Bush camapign....



Pro-Kerry eyewitnesses coming out of the woodwork....

Even Fox is distancing themselves from the Swiftee....


I predict "Unfit For Command" will be consigned to the ash bin of journalistic hoaxes next to the Hitler diaries...


John Kerry is not the diminutive Dukakis.....

[Surface Map]

17. I hope

you are right and I hope it is soon. I had a nightmare 2 nights ago that had Dukakis in his tank in it and Kerry was riding with him. Want to talk about a sorry ass nights sleep.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. This Attack Was Inevitable And Predictable

When you have lemons you have to make lemonade....

[Gelliebeans]

19. I too am a True Dem

I can't help but feel these last two weeks may have hurt us.
Here's why...

Democrats can keep an eye on the smear campaigns perpetrated by bush and co. We have the platform to refute this type of smear tactics but our reach of independent votes isn't long. We are preaching to people that believe that Bush is a liar anyway. True blue Dems know that this is ugly politics and sometimes necessary.

Let's pretend for a moment...

That I was an independent or a swing voter and was making my mind up based on what I hear and see on Fox or CNN then I would be led to believe that those stories about John Kerry must be true. The news hasn't stopped talking about these swift boat guys for 2 weeks.

With over half of the voters seeing these ads running on TV...

If I was uninformed of the truth, I might be suspicious that there must be some kind of "truth" to it.

Even blatant lies can stick sometimes if you don't believe me, go to snopes.com. The republicans are counting on us to continue defending John Kerry (it just buys them time). It also keeps the heat off of Bush, and he doesn't have to answer about his record.

I live in California so there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that Bush will ever win here, (THANK GOD) but I am worried about the people in Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, (swing states) we really have to put a concentrated effort to balance out the bias that Bush and his cronies have put into place in these states.

I hope I am wrong, but we go back to the same fact that the popular vote doesn't win the prize.

We have to be diligent to our cause and target those people on the fence in this election. WE KNOW JOHN KERRY IS THE MAN FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!

I may make Dems mad by making this statement, WE CAN'T underestimate the opponent and we have to be smart. I believe we run on emotions sometimes because a lot of us see this as the most important election of our life. It is. We can't afford to muck this up.

We have the ability with the INTERNET to reach those people in those swing states. We need to stay focused.

I am sorry folks if this sounds like "I'm on a soap box" but I want what Democrats want, "our rightful presidency". When we whine and cry about them not playing fair we lose so much time in the grander scheme. We should refute the incorrect and support the vision.
Thanks for letting me rant. BTW I am proud to belong to the DU.:hippie:

[AuntPatsy]

20. There is definately a ring of truth in your post..

Suppose, just suppose that Oneill is being used as well, and being the kind of umm "person" he is. Is it not possible that he is not even aware that the Republicans are in fact using him to aid in keeping this story going which obviously is a huge curtain covering the real issues perhaps until Nov?

The only problem with attempting a counter attack to the people they are obviously going after (the ones and there are many who will believe just about anything without taking the time to search out the truths by themselves) is that in that long run, all we are doing is aiding them to overshadow the main issue at this time.

Our Soldiers bravely fighting a war having been mislead by a group of individuals that could in all honesty care less about them. These same soldiers are largely made up of underclass and middle class young men and women who have been lead not only to believe that college will not be a reality if signing up and not only a dream and more than likely having to listen to propaganda of the worst kind leaving them to believe they are trully heroic, for to believe otherwise, would be too disheartening for those on the front line I am sure..

I think that the soldiers and Iraq and what is brewing in AFghan, Pakins, and more importantly in Iran to be a TOP PRIORITY for our bored newsman. I want to see stories of the soldiers that have come home. I want to hear first hand accounts...

I am tired of listening to Bush and com/media saying over and over again..."We Are Now Safe"

But wait, today we are on code orange...

Don't worry, tommorow we will surely be back to code yellow since we are winning this war...

What about boycotting news stations, as well as those who work for them....holding constant protests, peaceful but with plenty of signs outside these media thresholds?

Contrary to what some believe, I believe those against Bush are far more in number than those for, dispite the media's obvious, in your face biased against anything remotely labled Democrat..

[Gelliebeans]

22. The proof will be in the pudding

When the RNC goes to NY, I hope for the Dems sake that they keep it on TASK and stick to the agenda, If you are going to protest, do it peacefully. All of our emotions are running high but think about the "on the fence voter" sitting at home watching on their t.v.'s John Kerry needs to have that voter in order to win. We need to show moderates as well as everyone else that the Democratic party represents all the people (not the select few)THAT IS OUR MAJOR DIFFERENCE WITH REPUBLICANS

We should protest but we should have a UNITED message in order to be effective. The republican party would just love to have our radical left out there being seen by millions, why do you think that the religious right hasn't received their invitations from the republicans?--BECAUSE
1. they want to build their base
2.(most importantly) GET THAT SWING VOTER

The RNC will try to present like they did in 2000 this compassionate conservative bullshit--by having republicans like Arnold speak on their behalf--because the religious right is just as scary to the fence voters as the way liberal left is--no offense to those lefties--so that is why any bit of publicity "our way" by the news outlets has to be inclusive of the average Joe everywhere that is sick to death of bush. Its a sacrifice for some of us, for the greater good of ALL of us.:kick:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

21. This would already be dead if TV journalists had any standards and hadn't

given such prolonged exposure to a smear with no substantive evidence behind it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=651246&mesg_id=651246

See my thread, above. Oliphant summarized it best.

[Karenina]

23. It is my prayer

that the American people will benefit. This absurdity has ripped a lot of scabs bloody. The smear is against the DoD, NAVY, ANYONE WHO HAS EVER SERVED and lays bare the absolute CONTEMPT TPTB (the powers that be) have for Veterans of their imperial wars and American citizens, aided and abetted by the *corporate media.

Do you even realize how psychotic this soap opera appears to anyone outside the U.S. borders? (present company excluded ;-))
DemocratSinceBirth tells me some tall tale about Mayberry M. which runs counter to what I KNOW about him/her AND the documentation MM provides. I ask DSB, "Were YOU there?"
DSB says "No... BUT..." I TUNE OUT refusing to "entertain" (and THAT is the KEY WORD) any further commment. Schalter AUS. And if I'm in earshot when DSB attempts to spread the shit further I might even get a bit aggressive.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE LAND OF MY BIRTH??? :cry: :cry: :FOR CRYING OUT LOUD: :wtf:

Played cards tonite with fellow expats, we're all embarrassed and ashamed wondering WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON IN AMERICA??? Somebody PLEASE pull the plug on the projector. This movie REALLY SUCKS.

Meanwhile in Najaf... :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Democat]

29. Has Kerry has done enough to say it's an attack against all decorated vets

I don't think that message is getting out.

The Swift Boat Liars are questioning any vet who got a medal, including that anti-American asshole Bob Dole. Has Kerry pushed the idea that these vets aren't attacking him, but all vets?

[hansolsen]

24. Bush will be hurt by first ad, helped by second ad. Here's why:

The first ad was a pack of lies and pissed off people like me. Today I ordered $48.00 dollars worth of Kerry buttons, bumperstickers, and yard signs, etc. The backlash is on.

But the second ad attacking kerry's anti-Vietnam war activism could be helpful to Bush. Frankly Kerry is vulnerable on this because he has chosen to run on his war hero record and distance himself from his anti-war period. In many ways Kerry is trying to run to the right of Bush on the Iraq War, and his old anti-war rhetoric just doesn't fit. As a result Kerry can barely defend what he did earlier.

As a strong anti Vietnam war activist, and as an anti- Iraq war activist, I find Kerry's current positions painful to watch. In this respect, he doesn't represent my thinking at all. I now dread him trying to respond to the new ad by further backing away from his "yourthful over the top language."

Kerry should come out and say that the Vietnam War was a mistake and that at least half the soldiers who died in that war (on both sides) died long after the outcome was no longer in doubt. Thousands died because old men in high places refused to admit their mistakes. And yes, American soldiers committed many atrocities, and it doesn't make sense to deny that.

The profound problem we have is that John Kerry, our fearless leader, cannot bring himself to say that either of these wars was a mistake. Just to be clear, I will vote for Kerry, but what I would really like to do is beat him with a stick. (That's a rhetorical stick -- I'm just a harmless old grandpa who wouldn't hurt a flea.)

P.S. If John Kerry and his buddies at the DLC are determined to recast the Democratic Party as the war party ( stong on defense and even stronger on the war on terrorism), how in the name of Hell did we end up with the quintessential anti-Vietnam war activist at the head of the ticket??? Duh? Is this a Carl Rove wet dream or what??

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Kerry Has Never Equivocated On The Viet Nam War...

The only amendment he has made to his testimony is he is sorry if he offended the people who served in that war....

[hansolsen]

26. He has made big his record as a soldier and combat veteran in that war,

while downplaying his years as an anti-war activist. In this campaign, I have not heard him call the Vietnam war a mistake, any more than he will call the war in Iraq a mistake.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Why Should He Deny His Heroics....

He risked his life to save Jim Rassman....


As the Bible says "greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."


Kerry's on the side of the angels on this...

[hansolsen]

28. Oh, I agree, and he should use this in his campaign. But that's not why

I'm voting for him. It took more courage, IMO, to do what he did when he got home -- and what he did when he got home probably saved many lives by bringing the war to a close sooner.

He should run on that too -- that is my point. And if he had, he would now be in a better position to refute ad number two.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

35. You're right. Kerry should speak up about his anti-war stance.

The ghosts of Vietnam are still haunting this country. By focusing only on his heroics, he just makes himself vulnerable to more attacks and doubts.

He's trying to ignore the real controversy about the war itself. Not just Vietnam, but Iraq. Both have similar roots - American self-righteousness and hypocrisy. His avoidance of those questions are giving them to shrub.

Kerry is a loser in this because he won't speak out and follows the DLC pablum script of trying to be "tough on defense".

[0rganism]

30. Bush & GOP wins, regardless, and here's why

1) The media has been thoroughly obsessed with & distracted by the SBV issues to the point where Sen. Kerry has been hard to hear on other matters.

2) Although people claim to deplore "attack ads", they've been proven over and over to be a highly effective type of political advertisement in terms of swaying public opinion in the desired direction. The recent polls at electoral-vote.com reflect a gradual softening in Kerry's support, coinciding with the SBV ad clusterfuck. Whether or not people approve of the ads, they can still be affected by the content.

3) The ads themselves have been played repeatedly, frequently, and often outside the context of paid political advertisement (e.g., multiple times during news segments concerning the allegations). The SBV 527 has gotten huge bang for the buck with these things. And the bush campaign didn't have to spend a dime.

4) Furthermore, the ads are generating publicity for the Regnery book, which becomes another propaganda piece and generates revenue for the rightwing.

5) While one might think that the discussion of Vietnam war records would include consideration of bush's deplorable stint as a slacking deserter, this has not happened yet nor is it likely to do so in this campaign any more than it did in 2000 unless the Kerry campaign chooses to make it an issue. I seriously doubt this will occur.

6) The debate has been reframed to put Sen. Kerry on the defensive for his anti-war efforts in 1971. This will autmatically invite comparison with any discussion by Sen. Kerry of the human rights violations in Iraq, and weaken the Abu Ghraib abuses as a campaign issue.

This is not, by any means, insurmountable. But it requires a strong and, sadly, vicious propaganda response that matches the SBV group. This could be done by MoveOn or any other 527, and need not be part of the Kerry/Edwards campaign proper. However, Sen. Kerry may just have to find charismatic allies willing to stand up for friendly 527s the same way bush has people like Bobdole hitting the talking head shows now.

[TomNickell]

31. Too Early. Too False.

The strategy is strange.

2 mnths from the election--there's plenty of time to debunk lies. Just before the Repub convention--the controversy steps on the presumed positive message they want to convey.

And they went with the demonstrably false accusation first. So, Kerry can attack that and ignore the more difficult stuff about anti-war statements.

It's going to get ugly.

[jonnyblitz]

32. Looks like Bush will win or tie the VET vote according to polls

when, before all this mess, he had much more of the vet vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. This Monolithic Vet Vote Is A Myth...

Someone needs to the research but I believe Clinton won pluralities of the Viet Nam War veteran vote.....

[dolstein]

34. People who think this hurts Bush more are kidding themselves

Every minute the press spends discussing the "controversy" over Kerry's service in Vietnam is one less minute spend discussing Bush's miserable performance in office.

The fact is, the Bush people don't have to "prove" anything about Kerry's service. They just have to raise doubts. And they've raised plenty of them. And unfortunately, the headline editor of the Washington Post did the Bush campaign a huge favor by implying that BOTH sides have been less than truthful.

And let's not forget: Bush has done this before. What he did to McCain is at least as bad as what he's doing to Kerry. And he never paid a price for that.

And for those who point to the fact that attacks on Kerry's Vietnam record have backfired against Kerry's opponents in the past, let me point something out. The attacks on Kerry have never really been about what Kerry did in Vietnam. That's just a smokescreen. They've always been about what Kerry did AFTER Vietnam. And Kerry's antiwar activities play a lot better in Massachusetts -- the only state that supported McGovern in 1972 -- than they do elsewhere.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. I Beg To Differ....

Bill Clinton was elected twice and both times he defeated "war heroes" I put war heroes in quotation marks because applying this descriptive phrase is now a function of your political ideology... This is the same Bill Clinton who said he "loathed the military."
And this is the same Bill Clinton who carried a plurality of the Viet Nam War vet vote...

Maybe WW2 vets have a different take but most of them are dead...


I see lots of positive signs of blowback... The New York Times has exposed the lies, inconsistencies, and ties to the Bush administration of the Swiftees... Eyewitnesses without an ax to grind have been popping out of the woodwork to corroborate Kerry's heroics...

The Kerry haters like the Clinton haters will believe the worst about him... These are the same folks who believed Vince Foster was schtupping Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton was running drugs out of a Little Rock airport... This was never the demographic we were targeting...

Our target is the persuadables....


I'll await the evidence this attack has after it has the time to play out....

[Jack Rabbit]

37. People who choose to believe the Swit Boat Liars

Most people who choose to believe the Swift Boat Liars over Kerry and those who served along side him were going to vote for Bush anyway.

This is another example of the Bush campaign preaching to the choir; those Bush needs to convince don't like this sermon or the music made by the choir.

Advantage: Kerry.