John O'Neill is saying - in Vietnam thousands of U.S. soldiers

[Tony_FLADEM]

died rather than kill civilians in Vietnam. This proves that John Kerry was right about Vietnam. In order to survive our solders had to do some unsavory things like shootup vilages. Those who did these acts we able to survive vietnam. And those who did not do what was necessary to survive are on the wall today?

Of course I'm speaking in general. The Vietnam war was more complicated than that.

[still_one]

1. The My Lai Massacre was just one way they protected the civilians

[thebigidea]

2. that's one thing that confuses me about their latest ad...

... and all the talk about how "outrageous" Kerry's Senate testimony was.

Er, didn't we... uh, kinda do that? Don't we have - pictures? Stories? Witnesses? Millions of graves?

[Tansy_Gold]

6. There ARE witnesses

They may be reluctant to come forward.

A guy I went to high school with and who lived down the street from me in my hometown Chicago suburb used to carry around in his wallet a snapshot of himself holding up -- trophy-style -- the severed head of a Vietcong he had killed. At the time the photo was taken, he said, it was the sort of thing "everyone" was doing. Later, after he came back to the states, he said he kept the picture as a reminder that he never wanted to go back to being the person he had been then.

As the article by Bill Rood in today Chicago Tribune states, many of these guys (and they were mostly guys, so I don't want anyone to think I'm being sexist) just wanted to forget about the horrors. they weren't too different from guys like my dad, a WW2 vet who has never spoken to members of the family about what he saw in Europe. He was in an engineers group that was among the first into the concentration/extermination camps. He simply doesn't talk about it.

And after you've put your own inhumanity behind you, would you want to dredge it up again, flaunt it? I'm not surprised many of these guys are remaining silent. It would be extremely traumatic, I think, to go through it all again 35 or 40 years later.

And in a way, this may be the motive behind the SwiftLiars' actions. In a sense they are attempting to deny the horrors that they know happened but that they can't reconcile with what they "know" to be "true" about themselves. Unlike their fathers, who came home from WW2 as heroes, many Vietnam vets came home to be reviled, and I suppose there are some who realized maybe the hatred was in some ways justified, but they didn't want to face it. And so they blamed John Kerry for trying to make them face the horror that they themselves had become/created.

I know, this sounds complicated. I shouldn't think so much on a Sunday morning.

[Bunny]

16. Someone that I know very well showed me a picture.

It was of two dead Viet Cong. Their brains were cut out of their heads, and were lying on the ground next to the bodies. He told me that one of them represented his first "kill" and that it was customary in his unit to cut the brain out of your first kill. I have no way of knowing if this is true, but I know what the picture showed. SOMEONE cut their brains out, whether it was my friend or someone else is almost irrelevant.

And frankly, if the story is true, I cannot judge him for it. I have no idea of how I would behave if placed in the same circumstances.

[SemperEadem]

17. that's how Abu Ghraib was allowed to happen

most people will do in a situation what they feel they must in order to be a part of the collective and not be ostracized.

[annabanana]

18. I think you hit the nail on the head.

It's not simple, and it cannot be reduced to a sound bite, but this sounds right to me (having lived through the times).

[mfritz]

7. Tiger Force - Toledo Blade series

I don't know why some people deny there were atrocities. Saying that isn't an indictment of all Vietnam Vets. In his testimony Kerry put the blame where it mostly belonged - on the military and political leadership. The Toledo Blade recently won the Pulitzer for it's series on Tiger Force: http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

"Three Blade reporters won the Pulitzer Prize - journalism's highest honor - yesterday for uncovering the atrocities of an elite U.S. Army fighting unit in the Vietnam War that killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage." April, 2004

[genius]

14. That was a Colin Powell operation.

[jdj]

3. That's a very good point

A liberal Sean Hannity would ram that right up his behind, just like you put it. Why are there no liberal O'Reilly's or Hannity's. Well, there are on radio, but it's amazing how they keep any powerful liberal off TV.

[shraby]

4. I'm sure napalm didn't kill anything

but the brush and trees. /sarcasm

[madrchsod]

5. the problem with him is that

there are to many people still alive that fought over there or protested at home. there are to many books and movies,etc,etc for these slugs to try to rewrite history. some how they thought they could get away with it and now they realize that they can`t..every veteran no matter their politics should be outraged--

[DemoTex]

8. How many B-52 crews refused to fly Arc-Light missions?

Tell me that John O'Neill. Arc-Light saturation bombing in Vietnam (North and South), Cambodia, and Laos killed more civilians than any other form of US firepower. Ironically, the most devastating Arc-Light missions were ordered by O'Neill's former political/publicity sugar-daddy, Richard Nixon, and his main-man Henry Kissinger.

John, you really do bring the shit on yourself. I hope you don't agree to these forays late at night with ice tinkling in the glass and a slurred tongue. However, I can't seem to get that image out of my mind. Hell, maybe they have something on you. You know who you are working for, don't you? Ever heard of Cliff Baxter? Good luck, pal. You are owned now.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

13. Good point, DT.

Cliff Baxter. Who was MURDERED. With a Glaser Safety Slug.

[Nordic]

9. why are they giving this liar time on the air?

Oh, I forgot. Right-wing control of the corporate media and all of that.

Silly me!

[bluestateguy]

10. Liar

When I was in high school we heard from a guest speaker who said that he witnessed a massacre similar to the My Lai incident in which 80 civilians were killed. He said that the government successfully suppressed the incident (unlike My Lai).

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. My Lai was small potatoes compared to the bombing.

Hospitals, schools, whole villages...but, of course, that was at long range and they were just map coordinates to the guys dropping the bombs.

Not to mention "free fire zones", artillary, and mines.

All were "legitimate", of course, and our troops had no recourse to obeying "legitimate" orders to kill civilians.

[PurityOfEssence]

12. Kerry also had words at the time for our doing this to our soldiers

The pissy veterans only focus on how their honor is tainted and have a vendetta against the man, while they never see that Kerry also pointed out that they were victims of a blockheaded policy. The soldiers weren't just criminal marauders, they were prisoners of the situation, and Kerry's testimony and statements at the time were not a blanket accusation of all G.I.s.

Binary thinking idiots can't or won't see this, though.

What's really despicable, of course, is that many people who huff up with such fake outrage know full well that Kerry's characterization of the fighting is and was correct and that his medals were deserved. They cynically use lies to denigrate the man's character because of political affiliation.

[genius]

15. Ever see "Casualties of War" It's based on a real story.

[kskiska]

19. FReeps say the darndest things!

After Action report FReep of 'Kerry Krewman' Del Sandusky Gainesville, FL 8/19/04

Jacksonville FReepers OPbuzz and Chieftain traveled 75 miles southwest to Gainesville, Florida last night deep behind enemy lines to attend a 'Veterans for Kerry' rally with Kerry Krewman, Del 'I wear the same tired vest at every appearance' Sandusky.

(snip)

I removed my outer shirt while was talking, revealing my Hanoi John t-shirt. I continued in a VERY LOUD VOICE that Kerry sold us out, that he didn't care whether we were republic or democrat, he just smeared us all as war criminals and he didn't say those things because they were true, he said it to set himself of for his own political future! I haven't heard ONE WORD of apology from John Kerry about his smearing all of us 33 years ago, NOT ONE WORD! He doesn't give a rats ass about veterans, he cares about JOHN KERRY, that's all! What is he going to say about these kids in Iraq now, coming home missing limbs? Is he call them war criminals too? Do you think they want him for a commander-in-chief? Do you think they want a guy to lead them that SOLD OUT his fellow veterans?? He doesn't care about veterans and you are standing up there defending him?

One of the Kerry Kool aiders yelled at me, "Maybe YOU were a war criminal!". I stared at him in disbelief. Then Sandusky asked me if I killed anybody in Vietnam. I didn't answer. I couldn't believe he would say such a thing. He asked again 'Did you kill another human being?". I yelled back, "I served my country, and I am DAMN PROUD of what I did, I was in a WAR!".

---------------------------------

To: Question_Assumptions
If they ask you if you killed anyone in Vietnam and you did, then say so and then qualify it. If you don't answer, it makes it look like you are ashamed or are hiding something.

In all honesty, I couldn't recall my exact words when I wrote the report this morning. I just reviewed the tape and my actual response was at first, silence. Then after he asked again, I said "yes, I did. I did what I had to do because I was in a war! I served my country and I am DAMN PROUD of that."

I really was shocked when he asked me that question at first. No one I know who has been there, knows that is a question you don't ask out of respect. When he asked it, I went into a state of shock for maybe 30 seconds or so. It took a long time to not think about those days, and it's not something I have contemplated for many, many years. This was a real knife in my heart, because I am thinking about it all over again. I should have slugged the bastard after it was over.

52 posted on 08/19/2004 11:11:31 AM PDT by Chieftain (Support the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and expose Hanoi John's FRAUD!)
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