"Temporary Wear" of Unit Awards in the Air Force DEBUNKED!!!!!

[Walt Starr]

This comes straight from the Air Force Personnel Center!

I requested information, here is the answer:

Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:[e-mail] or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowdb.cfg/php.exe/enduser/home.php

Problem : A couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Problem Details : Hi, I have a couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award.

1) Has the AFOUA ever been authorized for temporary wear? The Army has many Unit Awards that, when you transfer into a unit, the award is worn temporarily, and then removed upon leaving said unit. Is this a practice of the Air Force or has it ever been a practice of the Air Force?


2) I have no access to the Air Force Pamphlet 900-2. I have found that the 147th FIG (now the 147th FIW) received a first award of the AFOUA in 1966 and a third, I believe, in 1982. Could you give me the dates of all AFOUA awards the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing has been awarded in its illustrious history?


Thank you so much!
Resolution : Mr. Starr,
IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.


Additionally, there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personel. Unfortunately, we do not have access to 900-2 however, if you request verification of entitlement of award of the AFOUA while assigned to a specific unit from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, they can research the data for you. Please send your request to the below address and include a copy of your DD Fm 214 showing proof of service. They'll be able to provide a one time issue of the award upon verification.

All that is left is verifying the dates of the 147th FIW's AFOUA awards. Once we've accomplished that, WE HAVE PROVEN THAT BUSH WORE A RIBBON HE DID NOT EARN!!!!!

Anybody in Houston who wants to make a visit to the Air National Guard headquarters to ask about some history?

:evilgrin:

[Qutzupalotl]

1. Well done, Walt!

:toast:

[Jack from Charlotte]

46. Anyone remember Admiral Mike Boorda killed himself after being accused

of wearing an incorrect or unearned decoration. Hackworth made the accusation..... then it was found that Hackworth also wore 2 unearned decorations.

What are the odds .........


No. He wore the uniform of an avaitor in his one man imitation of The Village People on that aircraft carrier.

[bwise]

54. Suicide over wearing unauthorized ribbon

I remember the incident. A difference here is that the man whose suicide was attributed to the ribbon incident had rows and rows of ribbons which made it especially bizarre...or did it?

Exactly like Bush, when I reached my first assignment I had only one ribbon, the AF expert marksman award, which was given in officer's training for the 38 revolver...I can still remember how much better it felt that policies authorized all unit assignees to wear the 465th's Outstanding Unit Award which it had previously won. I wore it of course, happy to have two instead of one. (It's in my official photo) But no one with only one ribbon would have dreamed of wearing an unauthorized extra ribbon-it would have stood out far more than a sore thumb on the 2d Lt just out of school! (You couldn't have cleared the orderly room before the hooting started.) This is , of course, a much different circumstance from "lifers" who obsess over ribbons and with "rows" of them, think maybe no one will notice an extra one or two. When your life revolves around something and you are "exposed", who knows what can happen? Sort of makes me worry about Walt.

[Spazito]

Excellent work, Walt!

Keep digging, you are really onto something, imo!!

[Mick Knox]

2. I have searched

exhaustively for info on the 2nd award and cannot find it.

He was with the 111 FTR INT SQD then, so I'm not sure if just that Squadran would receive that award.

I've searched on the premise as well and no luck.

Thanks for the AF Reg info.

[MallRat]

3. I like this: "include a copy of your DD Fm 214 showing proof of service."

Heh heh heh... Bush's DD-214? Good luck getting that, Walt!

Seriously, you've done some amazing research in a really, really short amount of time. If you close the loop on this, it could be devastating for Bush.

-MR

[fob]

9. There's a thread around here somewhere that has a link to bush* docs

and one of them is a DD-214. The doc's are more than a little fishy since they show bush*s SSN and it has too many numbers and in the wrong format; Real SSN XXX-XX-XXXX, on the DD-214 link the SSN is XX-XX-XX-XXX

I'll see if I can find it and brb.

Pending Edit Info here ---> Here's the thread;

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x657059

and the link from said thread;

http://www.texasturkey.us/backup/bushdd214.pdf

DD-214 is page 2 of 26

And my mistake on the SSN, on page 10 of 26 is his Selective Service Number in the form XX-XX-XX-XXXX, NOT his Soc Sec Number.

[underpants]

4. Damn I am WAY up now

:evilgrin:

Good work Walt

[DemNoir]

5. This calls for resounding

You da man!

[Frodo]

6. Has this actually advanced anything?

Did they respond at all regarding what the regulation WAS at the time?

But it does certainly look to be worth persuing.

[MallRat]

7. Everything I've found says the first 147th FIG AFOUA came in 1966.

That's long before Bush arrived.

I don't think I've found anything different that what you've found on the internet... nothing "official."

-MR

[Walt Starr]

8. there was a third AFOUA in 1982 from a second hand source

I need to talk to somebody in the 147th FIW as the history is there in the unit.

My concern is there was a second award some time between November 5, 1969 and November 7, 1970, which is the possible timeframe for the picture.

[underseasurveyor]

10. It sure is nice to have someone = like you Walt, that knows

Who, what, where, when, why and how to ask these military type questions.
A non-military person like myself wouldn't have the first clue about any of this.
Thanks for laying it all out in such a way that a non-mil person like me is able to follow and understand all this stuff.

You ARE the epitomy of AWESOME :bounce: :loveya:
:yourock: uh huh uh huh :headbang:

[myrna minx]

11. Thank you so much for your incredible research.

You are the best. :toast:

[Sparkle]

12. You rock!

Big time!:yourock:

[1timeonly]

13. 147 FW vs 111FIS

Have you looked into any awards the 111FIS might have received? Although as a squadron, I dint know if they were eligible.

But maybe that is where the ribbon came from.

Also, it may have came from his mystery unit in Alabama.

[Walt Starr]

16. It cannot have come from the mystery unit in Alabama

Bush is wearing wings in the photograph and documents provided by the Bush team confirm, he was a second lieutenant in the photograph. That puts a very narrow window from November 5, 1969 until November 7, 1970 into play.

Bush wasn't missing until '72.

[Gore1FL]

43. And Besides

There cannot possibly be pictures of him in Alabama, for obvious reasons.

[NightOwwl]

14. This is some very complex stuff...here's my understanding.

The 900-2 is a list of all units that were awarded the AFOUA. You will be able to use this list to verify Bush DID NOT serve in any of these units. With this information verified, you'll have irrefutable truth that Bush is fraudulently wearing the AFOUA medal.

:bounce:

Am I on the right track?

[Walt Starr]

17. BINGO!

That is the absolutely LAST piece of data I need. The AFP 900-2 document contains the history of all units until about mid-1991. All data newer than that is available via an online database.

In the absence of the AFP 900-2, I need some Houston DUer in good standing to walk over the the ANG building and look at their history. I guarantee you, they have the awards on display, both the 147th and its subsidiary squadron, the 111th.

[NightOwwl]

19. I'm keeping my fingers crossed! n/t

[Walt Starr]

20. Thanks, it would be much easier if I had a Houston contact

Barring that, I found a few phone numbers, maybe an email too.

It would totally rock if we busted Bush completely from cyberspace. So far, every bit of this has come via the internet!

[David Zephyr]

21. Holding My Breath for You, Walt!

Dude. You kick ass! :hi:

[PDittie]

49. Do you still need a volunteer for this?

I live and work not far at all from various National Guard armories (on Old Spanish Trail).

Just tell me what to do...

[Walt Starr]

51. Go in to see the recruiter for the 147th Fighter Wing

Basically to get some informayion. Take a notebook. Look for any plaques with this:



This is the award given to the unit. The unit would have been given the award for a serious of dates. I need those dates!

[PDittie]

52. I'll go there tomorrow

and post here with what I find out.

Is there anything more specific you'd like me to ask about?

[grasswire]

15. great work, Walt!

You're getting closer and closer.

I assume that you know about this site: http://www.ang.af.mil/history/Heritage/VietnamWar.asp

I assume that one might be able to ask historical questions somewhere there. Just a thought.

[Walt Starr]

18. That's who helped me debunk the "temporary wear" claims

:evilgrin:

[Hemato]

24. Howdy,

This is my first time here, and I do believe it took as long to register, log in, and find this discussion, as it did to look up AFI36-2803 Chapter 4 Section 2, Individual Entitlements:

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/36/afi36-2803/afi36-2803.pdf

"All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit."

[Hemato]

26. Regs...

Although I have seen references to "temporary" wear of unit awards on the internet, I have yet to find an actual regulation that permits it.

If anyone wants to take the time, they can also check out DoD1348.33M

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/html/134833m.htm

The AFOUA is covered in the appendix, at AP2.1.2.6 (page #113)

[Greyskye]

27. Welcome to DU, Hemato!

:toast:

[Walt Starr]

31. Thanks, Hemato, I've been trough both sets of Regs thoroughly

"Temporary Wear" of unit awards is provided for under Army regulations, but not Air Force.

Thanks!

[Walt Starr]

22. UPDATE: Unit Historian for 147th FIW is out of the office

But I have contact information and the dates when that person will next be on duty!

[DrFunkenstein]

23. So, Kerry Wasn't In Cambodia On X-Mas?

Are we actually going to stoop to their level? Oh, I love it!

[John_H]

25. FOLKS!!!! PLEASE DON"T WAIT TO INNUNDATE THE MEDIA

with info until Walt has the last t crossed.

First, there's more proof right now that chimp wore a medal he didn't earn than the swift boat fuck heads ever even claimed to have.

Second, any decent reporter can get the AFOUA dates in fifteen minutes (this is not to dengrate Walt, who doesn't have the same contacts, say, at stars and stripes that a NYT reporter might. S/he'd also be able to find out if wearing the ribbons were common practice alot faster than eany of us can. If chimp was allowed to wear the ribbon, they won't run the story, and that will be it.

There will be none "backlash" or "reputation damaging" that some of the (jealous?)naysayers and/or Freeps are screaming about. Christ, if there were a backlash against not dotting every i, Chimp would be down 99.

As we all know, once reporters think another reporter might break this story, at least one of them will go to print with it. It seems to me that at this point that's our goal. I'm headsuping every media contact I've ever had as fast as I can.

Hell, if we can get a couple of stories out before the evidence is firm, so much the better.

[Bluebear]

28. kick

[Walt Starr]

30. There's a major problem with the "common practice" red herring

It doesn't jive with the regulations as evidenced by the answer from the Air Force Personnel Center.

Violating regulations because "everybody else is doing it" is the "I'd jump off a bridge if Tommy did it" defense. It doesn't compute with the fact that such a practice is in direct conflict with Air Force Regulations.

My take on this is the Busheviks have been prepared for this since he ran for governor of Texas. They hid the scandal in plain sight and have prepared stock answers they thought would fly since it was a unit award and the Army makes provisions for the temporary wearing of unit awards. It's really pretty easy to explain.

My theory as to why he did it is simple. See, poor Georgie was there in the National Guard with all of these guys who were in the unit at least two years longer than he was. They had their nice shiny AFOUA ribbons as well as a lot of other awards poor Georgie didn't. After going through his Undergraduate Pilot Training and getting his shiny wings which he had to wear on top of his lowly little Small Arms Expert Marksmanship ribbon that everybody else had, too, poor Georgie took it upon himself to decide, "Hey, it's a Unit Award, I'm in the Unit, screw it, I'm putting it on my dress uniform!"

The problem for poor Georgie is, he decided to have his *picture* taken wearing the unearned ribbon.

Now tell me you can't hear him contorting himsef trying to explain away his misdeed with, "It was a unit award, I was in the unit. That wasn't me wearing the award, it was the unit wearing the award! I was just the guy in the uniform."

[John_H]

32. I'm of two minds about this

Substantively I agree with you--wearing a medal you didn't earn is not only a very serious violation of military code but despicable in every way imaginable.

That being said, let's assume the NYT goes with this tomorrow am. With everybody being sick of the SBV thing, and the media being as whorish as they are, chimp's not going to need a whole lot of wiggle room on this, IMHO.

I'm afraid that the "I just did what I was told and how was
I supposed to know 'cause everyone did it and I was just a young buck" spin might just cut it for the whores, the talking heads, and thus most of the public.

IF this gets reported (and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not, even if you nail it in stone) it's going to need a violent reaction from Kerry surrogates, vets, etc, to get legs.

Keep up the good work no matter what happens.

[Walt Starr]

33. It's the vets that will be POed about it

Go to a convention of veterans and claim you were awarded the Silver Star. Do it just once. They will be ALL OVER YOU ABOUT IT!!!!

Vets do not take kindly to people claiming to have earned awards they did not earn.

And it's not a case of "everybody did it" because that is just not the case. It was a violation of regulations. People just didn't do it.

Hint, look at the profiles of those naysayers,

[Tansy_Gold]

34. n/t

:thumbsup:

[Mick Knox]

35. nah

most Army vets or vets who know about the army regs will just get confused about the temp wear rule difference in the ANG. It will be muddy and unclear.

A unit citation is not a big deal. You can get them stateside.

Just like the NDSM.. unless you find a pic of him wearing it - it will mean nothing except some admin guy wrote it into his records - and thats IF he didnt really get it. And everyone mostly gets it. Again a yawn to any vet.

I think you did great work, but other than 15 minutes of internet fame, some serious DU props, possibly (a big POSSIBLY) a cable news show mention, this will go nowhere.

Its not the type of thing that will piss vets off.

Besides most enlisted, ESPECIALLY NCO's, know most 2LT's are not necessarily the sharpest tools in the shed.

[John_H]

37. maybe. But THIS time, it's the hypocrisy that becomes the story.

I think both you and Walt sort of missed my point--I didn't mean the vets getting upset about the substance of Chimp's ribbon thing--which I agree with Walt is bad--just not bad enough to get big play.

I think there IS a chance of vets and everyone else getting upset about hypocrisy given the current media attention on medals--Chimp letting people call Kerry's medals into question then having it come out that he wore a medal he UNQUESTIONABLY didn't earn. That would be the story, I think, and it would be much bigger than the actual "mistake."

Look, if the media made the swift boat ad a bigger story than the second most violent month in Iraq, then this one is at least good for a couple of decent body shots, don't you think?

[Walt Starr]

39. Great point, John_H

The Smear Boat Liars for Bush created a perfect storm where a lowly guy in the greater Chicagoland region would decide he needed to compare Kerry's awards earned for demonstrating the highest levels of gallantry by being wounded and saving lives while being shot at in the face of the enemy to the ribbon Bush got for shooting an M-16 at targets. That lowly guy noticed some discrepencies and started sharing them.

What comes out of it is the hypocrisy of smearing well documented incidents of heroics and the awards presented for those acts of courage under fire while propping up a tin penny dictator "wannabe" who would sink to the level of depravity to wear a unit award he was not entitled to wear.

Thanks, you said it perfectly!

[DemBones DemBones]

40. NCOs would enjoy seeing a 2nd Lt shown up, though. nt

[Walt Starr]

41. See, that's the second possible theory

Either he did it in ignorance or arrogance. If a sergeant convinced him he had to wear the award to show him up, it's ignorance, and quite frankly stupidity for taking orders froma subordinate. If he simply decided he was going to wear it, it's arrogance because he thought his desires outweighed Air force regulations.

[merh]

53. Walt Starr - not to be redundant, but have you tried to get Bath's records

while he was serving with the idiot? Seems to me those are not or should not be protected like the idiot's have been. Maybe there is a photo of him and the idiot in uniforms. Who knows what Bath's records will show. :shrug:

[Bongo Prophet]

42. I nominate you for a "cyber-sniper" ribbon

with clusters.
mmm, clusters.
:9

[madmax]

29. I love you, Walt Starr

:loveya: :bounce: :grouphug: :kick:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

36. A well deserved kick and a Cajun blessing

DAMMIT, BOY!!!!!!

:kick:

[Karmadillo]

38. Kick

n/t

[muchacho]

44. hello, Move On

Here's your next ad.

[John_H]

45. Which MW's have been called? We ALL know that if Kerry got caught

wearing even the most insignificant ribbon without having every line on every DD-whatever form filled in by William Westmorland himself, the GOP and the media would be crucifying him about it as we speak.

One of our fellow DUers has answered the questions ten thousand whores who've seen that picture didn't have the journalistic curiosity to ask. How about helping him help Kerry?

[fdr_hst_fan]

47. Why is this coming as a surprise?

After all, he's wearing a PRESIDENCY he didn't earn!

[merh]

48. Has anyone obtained Bath's records? Just curious if Bath

or anyone else in the unit has the award and/or a photo wearing the ribbon.

Would be nice to compare Bath's records to the idiot's. His should be available via FOIA - he ain't nobody important!

[David Zephyr]

50. Merh Has A Great Point Here, Walt.

Bush and Bath were joined at the hip during these critical months.

[annaross]

55. What about that National Defense medal

Now didn't you say that Bush had claimed that he'd earned a National Defense medal in his bio? And that it's reserved only for active-duty types or something? Isn't that worth pointing out? Or did I miss a post explaining why it was okay for Bush to claim that?

Anna

[Karla in Ohio]

56. Getting the message out about the medal

A suggestion: It seems to me all of the talk has been about getting CNN or the New York Times to cover this story. Has anyone been contacting the local newspapers in the relevant states (esp. Texas and Alabama)?

I would bet that the Houston Chronicle could spare an intern to go to the National Guard offices and track down some more info. Remember, most of these papers are owned by a chain, so a big break on the story would be distributed widely, and then be picked up by the major outlets.

Just a thought....