I don't understand why some veterans think Kerry 'betrayed' them...

[expatriot]

All these anti-Kerry veterans are driven by his 1971 testimony. More specifically, the part in which THEY MISINTERPRET HIM saying that all veterans are war criminals and the like.

All of what he states in his testimony is of reports that others made by their own admission. All he was doing was REPORTING what others had said and he was not saying all soldiers were criminals.

So... the question is. What do these anti-Kerry vets hate? Democracy?
Someone please fill me in.

TRANSCRIPT:

I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

[noahmijo]

1. I've been saying this over and over again for months

and I've come to the conclusion that most people who start these "kerry betrayed the troops" type attacks are the very types who feel that no matter what we shouldn't turn any soldiers in that take part in such atrocities. They are of the Rush "but it was just the same as fratboy prank type stuff what's the big deal?" ilk.

[annabanana]

10. They may be psychologically incapable

of admitting to themselves that there is something in their hearts that could allow them to do this stuff. They cannot accept that view of themselves. Facts have nothing to do with it.

[qwlauren35]

14. In part, I agree.

I think the enlisted should be safeguarded against censure... and the OFFICERS should be held responsible and court-martialed.

If the OFFICERS aren't forced to take responsibility, then in my mind, they are guilty of crimes by way of negligence.

Enlisted soldiers are often brainwashed to the point where there behavior doesn't make sense to civilians. What must be done to them to make them want to kill people? Especially people who have never attacked this country??? Is it any wonder that they go from sanctioned killing to unsanctioned torture? It's probably too fine a line, and some of them will cross it without proper supervision.

It is the officer corps' job to establish that line firmly, and to enforce it through chain of command.

To me, this reminds me of the Navy parties that got out of hand, and no one wanted to admit it... it's one thing when an enlisted personnel goes a bit wacko... it's another thing when officers ENDORSE it, even through silence and a blind, deaf and dumb approach.

[noahmijo]

19. I agree with that

I'll clarify if you're ordered to do so by an officer and to my knowledge the punishment for disobeying orders from officers is quite bad we're talking court martial bad, not to mention for those soldiers in the situation where everyone else is doing it and are all but threatening others to join in or they will be considered weak and probably worthy of having an "accident" since they weren't team players.

[lottie244]

23. I too have been saying this for months and am pissed at the Kerry folks

for not being able to get this message out. They should have been on top of this from the very beginning. Even Kerry should have known early on how to talk about this issue instead of running from it. I guess because he voted to give Bush those war powers his caught in his own pitard. Political expediency never looks good in hindsight. You must always stand on principle...there is never a shaky stand when you stand on principle.

[noahmijo]

25. In addition to giving Bush war powers

He should also say that that vote was necessary to back inspectors. I also agree that he should press the issue which is being discussed here.

I wonder and hope that he plans to unlease all of this onto Bush during the debates. I think maybe the campaign understands that even if they counter this the way people like you and I wish he would, the media won't show it, and it will just inspire Rove to conjur up all new false attacks.

This way if the attacks stay on the current, then come debate time Kerry will then address them and Bush will have nobody to hide behind and will look like the total fool that he is.

[BillZBubb]

2. Then let me explain:

They are right wing IDIOTS. They are trying to find anything they can to be "offeneded" by. They know the truth, but that is irrelevant. Kerry is not a wingnut so he must be destroyed. Fanaticism at its ugliest.

[expatriot]

6. Is that it though? are they really all that stupid and/or evil?

there has to be SOME logic behind their views. right? I mean they have to have some sort of reasoning.

[tandot]

3. Some think soldiers shouldn't tell on other soldiers, even if they commit

horrible atrocities. Freeper mentality.

[Maeve]

13. To be fair, soldiers and cops share this seige mentality

You convince yourself you are one of the good guys and those working with you are just doing the best they can under fire. You KNOW there are bad cops, but you don't want to believe it...so you join the suspension of doubt.

That bad cop/soldier may be the one who saves your life in a firefight. He'll be there for his buddies even if he's dirty as can be otherwise.

[readmylips]

4. If Kerry had betrayed them those Motter...

Fokers wouldn't be speaking today...Kerry saved their lives.

[dogman]

5. Some don't pay attention.

They go by what they're told by other Vets, like the swift boat liars. Some may have guilty conscience because of what they did and don't care to be reminded. Those of us who were there know what he talks about is true. Not everyone was in the field to witness or might have heard testimony from others.

[MadcityRock]

7. Honorable fighters would INSIST war crimes come to light

Those who hate Kerry for reporting atrocities may be ashamed of what they themselves did and afraid they will be judged.

[klook]

9. Bingo n/t

[GOPFighter]

8. IMO, his testimony was more heroic than his actions in combat

His opposition to the war was highly unpopular at the time, yet without that opposition who knows how many more innocent lives would have been lost before the war finally ended?

This veteran salutes him.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. He certainly helped legitimize Bush's going AWOL

Kerry's courageous act helped Bush find the guts to flip the bird to authority and walk out on the National Guard.

[kentuck]

12. It started in the White House with Richard Nixon, Pat Buchanan, and..

John O'Neill and others. Who are these scum that are criticizing the war in Viet Nam? They are no better than Jane Fonda taking her trip to Hanoi? Who the hell did she think she was to go and visit the enemy that we are fighting? These people are all the same. They are traitors. Especially that John Kerry fellow. He's really dangerous. We need to destroy him. That was their attitude.

[Sparkle]

15. Here's an example of Conservatives and Liberals:

Watch the movie "Casualties of War"

Conservatives - The soldiers that followed orders and raped the young Asian girl.

Liberal - The soldier that came back and reported it.

The Liberal soldier didn't rest until those soldiers were arrested for what they did.

[leetrisck]

20. Sgt. Darby, who reported the abuse at

the prison in Baghdad, and his family are in protective custody at this very moment.

[leetrisck]

16. Without Kerry & others, there would probably be 70,000

names on that wall

[Bonhomme Richard]

17. The fact is that horrific things happen in all wars............

and it happened in Vietnam. You know it, I know it, and most importantly the Vets know it. John Kerry spoke the truth and these guy's can't handle that. I'm fifty and remember guys coming back with stories, specifically ears cut off as souvenirs, and that's the way it was. For Gods sake, it is happening now in Iraq at a certain level. That is what war does to the soul. Not everyone is going to maintain the same level of sanity that they had before they went off to shoot and get shot at.

The best I can figure is that the level of denial that these particular Vets display relates to the battle stress that they are still enduring.

I actually feel for them a bit.

[bobbieinok]

18. dfuring the war there were many who believed any criticism was treason

I've read several posts on DU that claim everyone today knows our going into VN was wrong. I don't believe that claim is correct.

There are many today, mostly RW but also VN vets and others, who believe US would have and should have won in VN. The problem was the politicians (RW says democrats, but there were many republicans too) who refused to 'unleash' the military.

Just occured to me........this is similar to the German right-wing parties and the Nazis claim that the German military would have won WWI but the politicians, the Jews, the socialists 'stabbed the military in the back.' The right, and especially the Nazis, used this claim in every election and/or discussion to gain support.

[dolstein]

21. I guess you aren't open minded enough

I can easily understand why many Vietnam veterans would be upset, and even outraged, at what Kerry did. You seem to be under the impression that by 1970-71 everyone in this country believed that the Vietnam war was at best a mistake and at worst a crime against humanity.

Sorry, but many people didn't feel that way. And many people, particularly people who were serving in the armed forces at the time, considered the actions of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War to be an act of betrayal.

Personally, I was only a few years old at the time, and have no memories of the Vietnam war. But I can easily imagine that many solidies believed, or at the very least WANTED to believe, that what they were doing in Vietnam was right. That the sacrifices they made served the cause of humanity. And they certainly didn't appreciate being told that they had fought, and even killed, for a mistake. And the most certainly didn't appreciate being called war criminals. And while it was bad enough hearing this from hippie war protestors, it was far worse being told this by people who had worn the uniform, because it hit so much closer to come.

The fact is, there are people out there who will NEVER admit that the Vietnam War was a mistake, and will ALWAYS consider war protestors to be un-American, and will continue to be outraged by the things John Kerry did as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War. You may not agree with these people, but to say that you can't understand it displayers an almost shameful lack of empathy, not to mention a profound ignorance of American history.

[Leilani]

29. Wonderfully expressed...

I am a boomer, & you have exactly captured the beliefs & feelings of those on the other side.

Since you were too young to experience it first hand, you have displayed a great ability to see the larger picture.

As in life, Vietnam was not black & white; there were many shades of gray.

[TheRovingGourmet]

31. Well, you said that way better than I could. Next time I need

to post something, can I just call you? :)

[texastoast]

22. Old reason

It's a good thing war is so terrible. Otherwise, men would love it too much.

--Robert E. Lee

I've heard the confession from soldiers, however unwilling to go into battle, that once forced there, it is "the ultimate game."

I'm thinking that on some level they must like their dark sides having a play day, but feel "betrayed" if that fact is brought into the light for strong examination. Kerry did that.

How can you ever reconcile "Thou shalt not kill" with blowing someone's head off? Booze, drugs, PTSS, suicide?

Some ultimate game.

[featherman]

24. In truth, they bought into it during the Vietnam war years and

it became a permanent part of the cultural landscape for a certain type of "angry white man". Hatred of Jane Fonda types, dirty hippy protesters, and other ignorant civilians was (and is) simply a part of the Armed Forces culture promoted actively by the officer corps as a bonding tool. These feelings were aggressively exploited and magnified by politicians and the media as a tool in the concurrent 60's culture war at home. The current fury does not surprise me and has, in fact, been the undercurrent in this country throughout the Reagan/Bush years and largely the basis for the insanely ferocious and unremitting attacks on Bill and Hillary Clinton throughout his presidency. I hate to say it but I doubt that uniting this country in any meaningful way will be possible until all of us who were formed in that crucible die off. I know what side I was on and I will NEVER forget or forgive my enemies from that era. Never. I presume these smearboat guys feel the same way.

[Leilani]

26. How old are you?

I am a Baby Boomer; Vietnam is the issue that defined our generation.
It divided the country, & some are still divided. It is hard to explain if you did not live thru it.

I believe a lot of the division is still there today: the Red States & the Blue States.

For some reason, there is a group of very angry, bitter conservatives that are encouraging this hate. They are the people who pursued Bill Clinton for years in a vicious venom filled vendetta.

These are the people who gave rise to the angry voices of Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, Dick Armey, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc.

I do not know where we will go from here. If Bush is re-elected or selected, we will have a disaster on our hands. If Kerry wins, can he unite the country, in spite of these people? Will they allow him to govern? Will enough people on the Repub side, move to the middle & compromise? Will they put good of country, ahead of loyalty to party?

I certainly hope so, but my cynical side is keeping me from being too optimistic.

Edited to add: I recommend post #21, an excellent explanation as to why some of these people feel as they do.

[texastoast]

27. Seldom have the Gingrich types

ever put the good of the country above loyalty to the party. They are wicked, wicked people who do not speak for most of the Republicans, and it is a shame that the decent folks there have let people like DeLay and Rush define the entire party.

Even the Texas Republicans have shyed away from the Texas Republican Platform. It is completely ludicrous (but the bugman likes it). I hope we can take him DOWN.

[Nay]

28. This is one reason I originally voted for Clark.

The authority invested in his person, as a general, would have short-circuited a lot of the Vietnam shit that is swirling around Kerry. There would be NO SBV problem with Clark.

[Leilani]

30. I, too, supported Clark!

Great minds think alike!!!!

(Still a Clarkie, at heart)

[featherman]

33. I was a Clark supporter also

but I have NO DOUBT that the same people would have come up with a similar attack. Gen. Clark had a long career of rubbing many people the wrong way and his enemies within the service are legendary. The attack would have been similar in tone and adjusted to whatever particular garbage they could invent to fit the circumstances. . And it would have been as ferocious. One problem with the Clark candidacy was that he was not a longtime, familiar figure to most Americans and,thus, easily defined.

[0rganism]

32. They are the same people threatening Sgt. Darby's family today

No matter how grotesque, how unjust, how sick and shitty the actions of fellow soldiers may be, you're expected to toe the line and keep your mouth shut.

[Karenina]

35. White power.

[brentspeak]

34. These vets who feel betrayed by Kerry are a lunatic fringe

I work with a couple of Vietnam vets. Both say that they barely remember the speech, and that they didn't care one way or another, and still don't. Most vets apparently have pretty much put the war behind them, and are almost ambivalent about the SwiftVets controversy.

[roseBudd]

37. Movies portrayed the atrocities

Full Metal Jacket
Apocalyse Now
Platoon
Casualties of War
Hamburger Hill

This is how the general public came to realize what happened. Not congressional testimony in '71, before 24 hr news channels and CSPAN.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishface]

38. Because vets are part of the general public.

and we already know that almost 50% of the American public is stupid..
I mean ,look how many voted for the village idiot?

[jonnyblitz]

39. because vets can be assholes like everybody else. n/t

[kskiska]

40. The real betrayers are the SmearBoat Vets

They're casting doubt on the merit of everyone's medals. I'm sure that many Vets' honors wouldn't hold up under the scrutiny being used on John Kerry's.