The Case for Joe Biden

[Hope And Change]

Sen. Barack Obama huddles with Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Joseph Biden, in Jan. during a hearing on Iraq. (AP Photo/Susan Walsh, File)

The Case for Joe Biden

By Chris Cillizza | August 13, 2008; 1:09 PM ET

With Barack Obama rumored to be nearing a vice presidential pick, there is NO candidate hotter than Sen. Joe Biden (Del.).

Why?

The decision to name former governor Mark Warner (Va.) as the keynote speaker for the Democratic National Convention seems to suggest that Gov. Tim Kaine is falling from the top tier. The "security" theme of Wednesday night at the convention, the same night the vice president will speak, seems to suggest that the veep pick will be someone with a deep resume. And, the notoriously loquacious Biden -- and his campaign team -- has been preternaturally quiet over the past few weeks, a silence that is fueling rumors that he is the pick.

Today we make the case for Obama to pick Biden. Tomorrow we offer the opposite argument.

--------

Tomorrow: The case against Biden.


more....

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2008/08/the_case_for_joe_biden.html?hpid=topnews

[PatSeg]

1. I've heard this rational several times now

and it does ring true. Hopefully, we'll know soon.

[Skwmom]

49. "Helping a rogue president start an unnecessary war should be a career-ending lapse of judgment.”

I agree with Chafer.

http://www.projo.com/news/politics/content/chafee_vote_02-08-08_A88UCGM_v13.37f3a0e.html

He writes: “Being wrong about sending Americans to kill and be killed, maim and be maimed, is not like making a punctuation mistake in a highway bill.” Some leading Democrats “argue that the president duped them into war, but getting duped does not exactly recommend their leadership. Helping a rogue president start an unnecessary war should be a career-ending lapse of judgment.”

If Biden is the best we can do, God help us.

[ChiciB1]

2. My Choice Has Been Biden All Along... And Yes, I Know He Can Uncork

at times, however Biden has GREAT credentials and will be a compliment to the tickeT1 Plus he's not afraid to go "toe to toe!" Democrats need someone who will stand up to the "GOONS" AND HIT THEM HARD, and Biden has shown he WILL do that!

[inthebrain]

3. There are lotss of people in the party better at foreign policy than Biden

Biden may do the bidding of business interest in the interest of business best. That doesn't mean he is all there is to foreign policy or all there is in party when we are speaking about expertise.

His war vote pretty well disqualifies him. Probably one of the biggest foreign policy blunders in this nations history and he was a part of it.

[Name removed]

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[ryanmuegge]

9. It should disqualify any potential VP choice. No promotions for incompetence.

Regardless of any rationalizations. In the business world, nobody would get promoted after such a colossal fuckup (in relative terms; yes, I know the Iraq occupation was good for big business), so why should we promote incompetent politicians?

[KingOfLostSouls]

10. Lots of people voted for the war

its not gonna be dennis kucinich


kamp kooch need to get over it.

[Name removed]

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[gateley]

4. I do think the Georgia/Russia conflict has turned the attention

back to the FP heavyweight they probably need on the ticket. Biden, Clark, Richardson. I can't think of anyone else with such credentials as these guys.

[PatSeg]

5. Agreed

People are paying attention right now and I think they are getting more serious.

[KingOfLostSouls]

8. Biden owned the debates

honestly, if more time had been given to biden we'd have been looking at a substantially different landscape during the nomination process.


anytime biden got a chance to speak, the man pretty much disassembled the GOP single handedly. he had the single best line of the nomination process about any of the candidates when he ripped rudy apart (a noun, a verb, and 9-11).



biden comes from a safe state where an appointee can step in and not worry about losing a seat there. he's got TONS of pull in the senate. when biden speaks, he lays the gauntlet down. the man gets legislation PASSED. as VP, he'd be able to strong arm republican filibuster's into oblivion, and be a perfect go between for the president and congress. not to mention as a former chairman of the judiciary he knows about the rule of law and the necessity for it.


biden's resume puts him as THE top pick for VP.




Obama/Biden, ladies and gentleman, would bring us to the white house with millions of votes to spare.

[inthebrain]

11. Biden "owned the debates"?

I don't think so.

If he did he would have at least pulled off a primary and not dropped out.

Yeah, Biden comes from a stae where the Senators do the bidding of the credit card companies. As a matter of fact, Biden has been a Republican lite senator for at least the past 10 years.

So lets put him in the VP slot so we can have another bankrolled MBNA candidate.

Smart.

A guy who sucks at foreign and domestic policy.

A guy who runs at the mouth and makes bigoted statements about OUR candidate and other black candidates. Not to mention people from India working at Dunkin Donuts.

Don't think so.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[inthebrain]

14. Really?

By who?

On what subject?

Oh please point it out to me.

Life must suck when you have to brownshirt for a candidate. As a matter of fact, your thinking in regards to this subject is more Freeper like than mine. Especially when you consider that your gettin ape over a Republican Lite candidate.

[KingOfLostSouls]

16. who's your pick anyways?

well, lets hear it?



you seem to be one of those children who can't support their own decision so you're being called out, kid


put up or shut up.

[inthebrain]

17. I think you mean "who's ass do I kiss". NO ONES!!!

Oh please remind when it was that you;
__________________________________________________________________________
I remember caving that fool inthebutt's skull in during the primaries.



called him out about being a freeper. what a complete moron.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=404x19453

And also proove that I'm a Freeper.

[KingOfLostSouls]

18. tick tock tick tock tick tock

clock is ticking, I gave you permission to speak, you can go ahead



since you obviously don't think biden is qualified, whos your pick/would like to see/wouldn't mind/etc



go ahead, lil fella, I said its ok for you to answer.

[KingOfLostSouls]

19. waiting, sweety, waiting

come on, out with it. show some testicular fortitude.

[inthebrain]

20. I see

You gave up defending Biden's record.

You just discredited yourself on the topic.

Good job.

I suppose you won't be proving that I'm a freeper. Nor will you be proving that you discredited me at any point in time either.

Not that it matters considering you've just discredited yourself.

Speaking of Freepers. Given that you use Freeper tactics to support this turkey I would think you would be more suspect. Also considering that his positions are closer to the Republicans than mine. And so are yours if you support this absolut turkey for VP.

[KingOfLostSouls]

21. Still waiting, sweetheart

go ahead, lil fella


everyones anxious to hear you actually stand up for something



I don't need to defend biden's record, his record on foreign policy and the judiciary is impeccable.



so again, you going to put up or learn to shut up when your betters are speaking, freeper?

[inthebrain]

22. I suppose you can't meet the burden of proof

Just keep making it about me.

Ignore

Divert

Obfuscate

Deny

Turn the debate on your oponent without ever having to defend your own positon.

ETC

Congratulations. You've become just like the people you claim to despise; FREEPERS. Take the hint. I'm not running for office so making this about me is not going to improve your already weak and busted position.

[KingOfLostSouls]

23. the burden of proof is on you

the article already layed out the case for joe biden

you were discredited long ago during the primary season



the burden of proof is on you to provide a better or more suitable candidate and provide reasons why



the prosecution is waiting to hear from the witness, you may proceed.

[inthebrain]

24. Um, not it's not

See, this thread is is titled "the case for Joe Biden"

The article has done a terrible job and is more of an opinion piece than it is an objecitve fact based article. See, people who think for themselves (That ussually folks that aren't suckered by the cult of personality or the cult of Joe Biden on this board) wiegh facts, positions and votesd of a particular candidate to decide for themselves.

They really don't need you. If anything, you wonder to claim this guy is a goodf choice than it is up to you to offer proof. I don't have top offer anyone else. Yet, there are candidates and people all across this country that are much wiser on foreign policy and domestic policy than Joe Biden. THere is option C, D, E, F, G etc.

Unfortunatly you seem incapable of grasping this. THere are also lots of people in the party better at foreign policy and domestic policy than Joe Biden ()for starters I would look at some of the folks who were smart enough to vote against the Iraq War). There are aslo people outside the party better than Biden as well.

Against a lot of folks in the party, Biden is a very poor choice on foreign policy.

Same can be said on Domestic issue like economics and abortion.

[KingOfLostSouls]

25. "The Case For Joe Biden"

obviously you misread the title of the article which already layed out the case

you were discredited during the primary's spewing the same load of horse crap you are now



the burden of proof is on you to provide a more suitable candidate and defend them



DO YOU HAVE A BETTER CANDIDATE WHO YOU CAN PROVIDE THAN JOE BIDEN, YES OR NO?


I'm giving you permission to speak, its ok here, we're all waiting intently to hear you grow a pair, man up, and have the fortitude to stand up for something rather than sit around like some roody poo candyass without clue one.


so, dunce, do you got something to add? the prosecution is waiting on the witness.

[KingOfLostSouls]

26. your words, kid

"THere are also lots of people in the party better at foreign policy and domestic policy than Joe Biden"




then you can start off by providing some of those who you think are more qualified for the position.


those are you words right there, kid, so....don't punk out now, man up and answer up.

[KingOfLostSouls]

30. bueller....bueller....bueller

"THere are also lots of people in the party better at foreign policy and domestic policy than Joe Biden"





put up or shut up time, lil fella.



you gonna man up or punk out?

[inthebrain]

29. I already knocked down his foreign policy cred

He vopted for the Iraq War and to fund it every single time.

His stances on trade are aslo foreign policy as well as domestic issues. Especially when it comes to legislation on trade Where unions and workers rights are excluded. In case you haven't been paying attention those are civil rights, domestic issues and foreign policy decisions.

Just keep making this about me. I'll keep knocking down Biden as you have no defense for him. Problem with DU's "Biden Brigade" is that it's members are all weak at this stuff. You rely on pack support and turning the debate on the poster rather than offering up positive proof as to why you think Biden makes good decisions. Not to mention whether these decision can be objectivly proven as good ones.

You simply can't do it.

I can cut you up on this stuff all day.

[KingOfLostSouls]

32. "I can cut you up on this stuff all day."

then the title of the thread is the case for joe biden


obviously you think others are better qualified so you can start your "cutting up" by providing some of those you think are better and why.



man up time, you either got it or you don't.

[inthebrain]

36. Keep making it about me

Meanwhile I'll just keep proving what a foreign and domestic your Reagan Democrat Joe Biden just happens to be.

Unfortunatly for you I can think for myself. I can use facts to work my way through a problem and not rely on someone else to do it.

Biden's stances and decisions on foreign and domestic policy are a disaster. He's voted to ban, limit and create red tape all around DNXes.

He's voted for a crime bill that has seen out prison population go through the roof. So much as it is now tops in the world even surpassing totalitarian China.

He's voted for and funded the Iraq War which has killed over 4000 American troops and hundreds of thousand Iraqi men, Women and Children.

He's supported the Drug War which is also reponsible for the rising prison population and clearly targets minority drug offenders.

He's undercut unions and working people throughout the globe by supporting extremely flawed "Free Trade" legislation. This has become a human rights disaster abroad as well as at home.

He's voted for and zekously supported the Bankruicy Bill. Meanwhile he disengenously claims he did because it protects women owed alimony payments. Meanwhile totally dismisses women who don't have that luxury and people who aren't able to make their payments as a result of his votes for turkey "Free Trade" legislation.

[KingOfLostSouls]

45. so in other words

ya got nothin



calling biden a reagan democrat when the man was in office before reagan took the presidency reveals what an utter and complete moron you are.



like I said, ya didn't put up


so really, its time you shut up.

[inthebrain]

48. Looks like I'm more important than Biden's so called "qualififcations"

This whole thing is cracking me up.

Where are the rest of the Biden Brownshirt Cultists?

Funny thing about all this is that you think this actually effects the real world. Meanwhile that actual facts being shown to you just get swept under the rug.

Just keep calling me a Freeper while you have to use Bush logic to prop your guy up.

Wanna know who has a better lifetime record with labor than Biden? EVERYONE HE RAN AGAINST IN THE PRIMARY!!!!
_________________________________________________________________________________
FactCheck: His AFL-CIO rating of 85% is not best of all Dems
Sen. Biden claimed to have the best labor record of all the candidates present that evening: Biden said, "Look at our records. There's no one on this stage, mainly because of my longevity, that has a better labor record than me."
Actually, the opposite is true. All the candidates on the stage had a better "lifetime" labor record than Biden, as measured by the AFL-CIO's ratings of Senate and House votes. The AFL-CIO's latest listings show Biden voting its way 85% of the time over his entire Senate career--the lowest lifetime rating of all the candidates on the stage that night.

Despite this, a Biden spokeswoman said, "Sen. Biden enjoys comparable ratings to his opponents during comparable periods of time." And in any case, the AFL-CIO's "ratings do not equal a track record of getting legislative & practical results for labor."

In 2005 Biden's record was 93%, Clinton's 86%, and Obama's 100%. In 2006 Biden tied Clinton & Obama, with all of them voting with the AFL CIO 93% of the time.

Source: FactCheck.org on 2007 AFL-CIO Democratic primary forum Aug 7, 2007
_________________________________________________


http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Joe_Biden_Jobs.htm

[KingOfLostSouls]

51. so, you're bitter about biden's 85-95% record

on labor


you know, thats what you consider a reagan democrat


so tell us all who has a better one who you'd like to see in the VP office if 85-95% isn't enough



go ahead, we're all ears.

[inthebrain]

54. On labor alone

Every one on that stage had a better record.

Just that issue alone.

Wanna talk about abortion?
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
No public funding for abortion; it imposes a view
Q: Are you still opposed to public funding for abortion?
A: I still am opposed to public funding for abortion. It goes to the question of whether or not you're going to impose a view to support something that is not a guaranteed right but an affirmative action to promote.

Source: Meet the Press: 2007 "Meet the Candidates" series Apr 29, 2007
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Another issue he is completely out of the loop on. Guy who's been a senator for 30+ years should know better than this. Public funding for abortion is for RAPE VICTIMS!!!!!

How about this?
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Supports partial-birth abortion ban, but not undoing Roe
Q: You supported the ban on partial-birth abortions or late-term abortions.
A: I did and I do.

And the Supreme Court came and basically upheld that ban, and you criticized the Supreme Court.

Q: They upheld the ban, and then they engaged in what we lawyers call dicta that is frightening. You had an intellectually dishonest rationale for an honest justification for upholding the ban. I know this is going to sound arcane--they blurred the distinction between the government's role in being involved in the first day and the ninth month. They became paternalistic, talking about the court could consider the impact on the mother and keeping her from making a mistake. This is all code for saying, "Here we come to undo Roe v. Wade." What they did is not so much the decision, the actual outcome of the decision, it's what attended the decision that portends for a real hard move on the court to undo the right of privacy. That's what I'm criticizing about the court's decision.

Source: Meet the Press: 2007 "Meet the Candidates" series Apr 29, 2007

Accepts Catholic church view that life begins at conception
Q: You have changed your position on abortion. When you came to the Senate, you believed that Roe v. Wade was not correctly decided and that you also believed the right of abortion was not secured by the Constitution. Why did you change your mind?
A: Well, I was 29 years old when I came to the US Senate, and I have learned a lot. Look, I'm a practicing Catholic, and it is the biggest dilemma for me in terms of comporting my religious and cultural views with my political responsibility.

Q: Do you believe that life begins at conception?

A: I am prepared to accept my church's view. I think it's a tough one. I have to accept that on faith. That's why the late-term abortion ban, where there's clearly viability.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Again, Biden's ignorance on this issue is clearly showing it's true colors. Partial Birth abortions (DNX) are performed when the life of the mother is threatened by the fetus.

He wants the procedure BANNED!!!!!


Biden is a god awful candidate for VP. A walking disaster area. Anyone thinkging Lieberman sunk the ticket in 2000 better look out for this turkey.

[KingOfLostSouls]

57. so who was your pick

on that stage then?


if its not on that stage, then by all means, share who it is?




clock's ticking.



tick


tock


tick


tock


tick

tock


DING!

answer up, time.

[KingOfLostSouls]

53. heres the funny thing

"Funny thing about all this is that you think this actually effects the real world."



biden's still chairman of the foreign relation's committee, a prospective nominee for the vice presidency of the united states of america, a former presidential candidate, and one of the most respected and powerful men in politics today. a former chairman of the judiciary who when he speaks, the party listens. a man who has gotten legislation passed to help americans and others, who's on first name basis with world leaders, who gets to sit around insulting guiliani or bush to their faces and theres nothing they can do about it.


and you're some whiner who can't provide anyone better for the job trolling a net forum looking for attention and getting their skull caved in repeatedly for it. you wouldn't look half as stupid if you were at least like, "well wes clark would be good for such and such reason" or "evan bayh would be good for such and such reason." but truth is you can't do that because you don't have a leg to stand on. you lack the minerals to put something out there because your positions are either foolish, juvenile, or just outright stupid. you're aware enough to realize you're a laughing stock so you don't follow through with the swing. its easier to bunt and hope than swing and miss, but those guys never make it to the big leagues.

tell me, honestly, if you think your spamming a board is going to stop joe biden? he'll be in the history books in a very positive light while your bones are worm food.


bet that just galls you to death.

[inthebrain]

58. See this is what you don't get

I, as in me, do not think what I post here will effect ANYTHING.

Furthermore, you obviously do as the rest of the Biden sychophants who kiss this guys ass. Nor do you see me pissing and whining at other sections of the forums about what other people post as you and your crowd do here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=404&topic_id=19453&mesg_id=19453

Inthe butt eh? I see this topic really brings out your homophobic colors. That's nice.



And no, this guy is not the most respected member of the senate or even in government. Not even close.


Again, I've offered positive proof that this guy does not stack up. You can choose to dismiss it all you like. That's typical of cult members when their Demagogue gets taken down a knotch.

Have fun pretending it's all about me.

[KingOfLostSouls]

60. Actually, you are pissing and whining

quite a lot in this forum.


the fact you're a laughing stock really seems to get to you.


its not that people care what you say, you were debunked ages ago.

its the fact you lack any kind of balls to be a man, and ante up.


If you're too chickenshit to back any kind of person or make your opinions known, just say so. we'll all accept you're a cuckold.

[inthebrain]

63. How old are you?

Two?

My lord.

And you think your going to chase me off the forum?

I don't think so.

I'm still here.

Try again.

As usual you can't offer positive proof as to why this guy whould make a good VP. Just ignore the facts all day long.

[KingOfLostSouls]

66. nothing yet?

waiting


bueller



bueller



bueller







we have all night, kid, and you're gonna answer, inthebutt, and you will do as you're told on this matter.

[KingOfLostSouls]

50. still waiting, lil fella

you've had a while now to provide us with a suitable alternative.


you keep flapping your yap but there ain't nothing but horse crap flying out of it, douchebag


if ya wanna rumble with the big boys you better have more than green party talking points cause you're falling flatter than a 10 year old girl without her training bra yet.



if you don't have any positions of your own but what naderites have, thats fine, just say so. otherwise, the prosecution has called on you to provide some answers


you can either step up or don't show your face around here again.

the article already layed out the case FOR biden, you made the claim theres better, burden of proof is on you to provide names and reasons why


if ya cant do that, sorry kid

[inthebrain]

62. I just did

on labor AND abortion.

I suppose your idea that proving Biden is a acceptable VP candidate is to prove that others are less worthy. Know who's doing that right now?

McCain!!!!

Know who did that in 04?

Bush!!!!

The Freepers seem like they taught you all the tricks to debate. Too bad your no good at applyting them.

And no, the article didn't lay out a good case. Bidens expertise on foreign policy is severlyu undermined by his Iraq War vote and his "three state solution" which is also a disaster.

[KingOfLostSouls]

67. who do you consider "worthy?"

you keep flapping your cocksucker and blowing gas but you ain't stood up for anything.



enlighten us all on who your top pick for the dream job would be.

[KingOfLostSouls]

69. awww the widdle chicken ran away

looks like you realized you're done here, kid



I guess thats why you ran away and hid.

[1corona4u]

70. LOL....

Eh, to quote Joe Biden, "you're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts".

You keep arguing the same shit, over and over, and over. It's all been "defended", and debated, and debunked, since the earth cooled, and at this point, it's just an exercise in futility where you are concerned.

Biden is a smart, powerful, caring man. Whether you like it or not. Obviously no one is perfect. No one.

Especially not you, the pot calling the kettle black. You really need to get some counseling for this obsession you have with Joe. Seriously, you do. People, such as yourself, seem very mentally unstable to me, and I'm starting to think you might be a danger to society. It's a very unhealthy signal to me that this is all you care about.

I've never seen anyone with such a vengeance for hatred as you seem to have for Joe, someone you have no personal connection to, and never will. Something is not right about you...and this.

Oh, and I'm not weak. None of us are. You're just too dense to comprehend, and accept the actual facts. It's pathetic that this is how you choose to spend your life. On a message board, pounding the same shit out, over, and over, and over....

Get a life. Seriously.

[knixphan]

33. Biden did own the debates.

[jillan]

34. He did do pretty good considering he was only given about 6 minutes each debate.

[knixphan]

35. yep-

any more and he would have upstaged everyone...

except Kucinich...

That is, if Kucinich had been given more than 30 seconds...

[jillan]

37. Remember Dodd's talking clock?

I was so thankful that he did that, as infuriating as it was to see the truth.

[knixphan]

38. oh that's right!

?nocache

[jillan]

39. Poor Gravel.

I loved listening to him in the Debates. He was great.

Maybe Obama should pick him for veep, haha - he definitely wouldn't be afraid to take McSurge on :P

[knixphan]

41. Oh wow - just imagine...

I could just see Obama holding back his laughter as Mike 'attack dog' went for McCain's leg.

[jillan]

40. Poor Gravel.

I loved listening to him in the Debates. He was great.

Maybe Obama should pick him for veep, haha - he definitely wouldn't be afraid to take McSurge on :P

[knixphan]

27. Smokin' Joe!

I can haz biden? Plz?

[Muttocracy]

28. I think his family has a cat, but I don't know if it's a LOLcat :)

[TheDonkey]

31. Great argument for him. There also is a solid argument against him. Biden is an interesting pick

but I would certainly love seeing more of him on the trail so I'd be thrilled if Obama/Biden was the ticket.

[Cosmocat]

42. I think Bayh ...

is the best piok, but I am OK with Biden ...

Bayh is sure thing pick ... Extremely well qualified, and gives the best chance for a VP to flip a state that we have seen in a while ... I don't see the downside other than grousing from the far left of the party ... He can get pegged as "boring" but that is a pretty lame negative to tag Barrack Obama's VP ...

Biden, to start out with, has the same "issues" most of the Bayh bashers put on Bayh, voting for the IW ...

Biden has more upside, and I do agree that he will get out and shoot from the hip and protect BOs flank a bit ... But, he has a reputation and already has been cast by the MSM as a "loose cannon" ... If it is Biden, he will get some good shots in, but either he is going say something that is actually stupid OR the media WILL blow something he says out of proportion and then take BO to task for "not being able to control Biden" ...

Just saying, I can see the MSM's crape from a mile away ... Again, Biden will get some shots in, but he brings the same level of downside when the MSM will decide to do its thing ...

[TheDonkey]

46. Biden is more risky of a pick yes, more upside like you said but

with risk the downside is higher too. Bayh is a mostly safe pick. My only concern is the lack of excitement he creates and his ability to attack McClown. I'd support him though and think he deserves to be on the short list. But in times when Russia is at war with their neighbor I think Biden could be clearly a force on the trail.

[TexasObserver]

43. Biden

[BlooInBloo]

44. I guess "change" is nothing more than a snappy marketing line to you.

[Skwmom]

47. It hurts the change and authenticity argument.

[LibDemAlways]

56. Biden is a long-time Washington insider who loves the

sound of his own voice and doesn't know when to shut up. He's the master at spelling out why some nominee isn't qualified in one breath and then voting to confirm him or her in the next. And he voted for the war.

He would add no excitement to the ticket. I would be sorely disappointed in Obama if he went in that direction.

[KingOfLostSouls]

61. who's your pick?

again, people usually put someone else forth if they have someone else in mind.



I'd like to hear it.

[LibDemAlways]

64. If I had to choose, I'd go with Clark. He has

military credentials, foreign policy expertise, and isn't a professional politician - which I think is a plus.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion re. Biden. I have no problem with your expressing it. I just don't happen to agree.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Raineyb]

55. Didn't Biden vote for that God-awful Bankruptcy "reform" bill?

That's a no go in my book as well.

Regards

[KingOfLostSouls]

59. Lotsa people have questionable votes

kucinich was anti-choice till he decided to go national.


guys who change their stances on major issues like that aren't trustworthy, I think we can all agree.