Please Explain O'Neill-Cambodia Lie

[earthside]

What is everybody talking about from CNN?

When and where did O'Neill say he was NOT in Cambodia?

Is that the lie, since he's on tape having told Nixon he had been in Cambodia?

[David Zephyr]

1. Let Me Juxtapose This Here. It's a Lovely Thing:

ONE:

O'Neill: "Despite the dramatic memories of his Christmas in Cambodia, Kerry’s statements are complete lies. Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War... he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia." --- John O'Neill from Rush Limbaugh's very own website. http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080904/content/kerry_stack_3.guest.html

TWO:

O'Neill: "I was in Cambodia Sir, I worked along the border on the water." Nixon: "In a Swift Boat?" O'Neill: "Yes, Sir." --- Transcript from Nixon "Watergate" Tapes as transcribed by DU's beaconess from CNN. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x664332

[joefree1]

2. Bloody hell

That's getting your wanker caught in the door!


Download the free poster/sign here:
http://ediablo.com/eDiabloGallery.html

[beaconess]

5. The real issue here is not where Kerry was on Christmas . . .

But that O'Neill claimed that he had never been in Cambodia and that Kerry was NEVER in Cambodia either and that he would have been "seriously disciplined or court-martialed" had he made such an incursion.

And now, it turns out that O'Neill told Nixon, just as big as day, that he took his own Swift Boat into Cambodia.

Thus -

O'Neill's claim that he had never been in Cambodia - LIE

Swift Boat Liars claims that no Swift Boats went into Cambodia - LIE

Swift Boat Liars claims that incursions into Cambodia were verboten and subject to drastic disciplinary sanctions - LIE

[Hamlette]

9. these two statements don't contradict each other

what am I missing?

[nyhuskyfan]

26. O'Neill said that he was never in Cambodia either

His argument was that if he or Kerry had been in Cambodia, they would have been court martialed. But he's there on record saying that he was in Cambodia himself. So his argument that Kerry couldn't have been in Cambodia holds no water any more, since he admitted plain as day to Nixon that he was.

Remember, O'Neill and Kerry were never in Vietnam at the same time. O'Neill came after Kerry left. So O'Neill has no first hand knowledge to refute Kerry's claim -- merely his statement that nobody on the swift boats ever were allowed in Cambodia.

[IndianaGreen]

3. Read the entire statement by O'Neil

It is not quite what it is being represent by some in here.

BTW, Kerry was not in Cambodia in 1968 either. No one in uniform was!

Nixon is the one that changed the engagement rules in 1969.

All of Vietnam was FUBAR!

[beaconess]

6. O'Neill said that Kerry was NEVER in Cambodia

"Kerry was never in Cambodia during Christmas 1968, or at all during the Vietnam War... he was more than fifty miles away from Cambodia."

[IndianaGreen]

8. Kerry was not in Cambodia in 1968, he couldn't have been

or he would have been court martialed. Even the mainstream media has recognized that the Cambodia thing did not happened in 1968.

Unless you are old enough to have been impacted by the Vietnam War, you would not have a clue as to how high passions were back then, and how high they still are after all these many years.

The real issue for vets is not who got what medals, although COL Hackworth did make such an issue in the case of Admiral Botha only to have the same thing happen to him. The real issue, which is still festering after these many years, is that many vets felt that Kerry's remarks to Congress painted all of them as war criminals and baby killers. You can argue until you are blue about what Kerry said, or did not say, the point is that attitudes have pretty much hardened over the years.

I am just telling you how it is. America has never come to grips with the horrors of Vietnam, or to the damage it did to everyone from that generation; perhaps it never will.

You should worry more about the damage that the current war in Iraq is doing to us as a society, to the troops, to the Iraqis. That's the best way to deal with Vietnam, by preventing another one from happening!

[Zen Democrat]

10. Don't kid yourself. We had incursions into Cambodia and Laos ...

throughout the war. What Nixon did that was a departure was publicly initiate a bombing campaign in Cambodia. This escalation officially occurred in March 1969, but it is a known fact that the U.S. was doing special forces missions in Cambodia and Laos all the time, while publicly denying that we were doing so. And one of the main missions of the Swift Boats was to carry members of Special Forces (a la Rassmann) up the river into these border territories. Remember Apocalypse Now?

[Stephanie]

12. Somebody needs to post a very basic explanation of this here

Many here don't have any idea what significance Cambodia has to the Vietnam War. Actually, I don't. And many younger than me don't. What does Cambodia have to do with it? Excuse my ignorance - I am a product of American public education.

Why does it signify if Kerry went into Cambodia?

[krkaufman]

19. Hey, let's not blame "public" education for this one...

... I'm *certain* that private school graduates are no better informed on these issues.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Apocalypse Now was a movie

Nixon did not take office until 1969 and he expanded the war.

We did not have military personnel in Cambodia in 1968.

[Stephanie]

11. So no one was allowed to go into Cambodia?

That's what's confusing? If Kerry said he went to Cambodia, what does that mean? That he went into illegal territory? What's the significance?

[Zen Democrat]

13. It was a very poorly kept secret that America was spreading the war

into the countries of Laos and Cambodia, because the Viet Cong were crossing the borders of these countries (Vietnam had borders with China, Laos and Cambodia.) The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution passed by the U.S. Congress officially began the war, and after Nixon launched a ground invasion of Cambodia in 1970, the Congress repealed the Tonkin Resolution and passed the Cooper-Church Amendment which prohibited U.S. troops from operating outside of South Vietnam. However, from the beginning of the ground war in Vietnam, the military command surreptitiously ran Special Forces operations inside the Cambodian and Laotian borders to interfere with the Ho Chi Minh Trail supply lines that traveled from North Vietnam through both countries. A look at a map of Vietnam will easily explain this.

The bottom line is that it wasn't illegal for Kerry or anyone else to be in Cambodia or Laos, but our government was lying about our policy to the American people and the outside world. It didn't become illegal until the Cooper-Church Amendment passed in 1970, following the Kent State massacre and the widespread campus riots.

There's a general overview of the entire Vietnam War on Encarta and the following refers specifically to Cambodia:

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761552642#endads

In March 1969 Nixon ordered the secret bombing of Cambodia. Intended to wipe out North Vietnamese and NLF base camps along the border with South Vietnam in order to provide time for the buildup of the ARVN, the campaign failed utterly. The secret bombing lasted four years and caused great destruction and upheaval in Cambodia, a land of farmers that had not known war in centuries. Code-named Operation Menu, the bombing was more intense than that carried out over Vietnam. An estimated 100,000 peasants died in the bombing, while 2 million people were left homeless.

In April 1970 Nixon ordered U.S. troops into Cambodia. He argued that this was necessary to protect the security of American units then in the process of withdrawing from Vietnam, but he also wanted to buy security for the Saigon regime. When Nixon announced the invasion, U.S. college campuses erupted in protest, and one-third of them shut down due to student walkouts. At Kent State University in Ohio four students were killed by panicky national guardsmen who had been called up to prevent rioting. Two days later, two students were killed at Jackson State College in Mississippi. Congress proceeded to repeal the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. Congress also passed the Cooper-Church Amendment, which specifically forbade the use of U.S. troops outside South Vietnam. The measure did not expressly forbid bombing, however, so Nixon continued the air strikes on Cambodia until August 1973.

Three months after committing U.S. forces, Nixon ordered them to withdraw from Cambodia. The combined effects of the bombing and the invasion, however, had completely disrupted Cambodian life, driving millions of peasants from their ancestral lands. The right-wing government then in power in Cambodia was supported by the United States, and the government was blamed for allowing the bombing to occur. Farmers who had never concerned themselves with politics now flooded to the Communist opposition group, the Khmer Rouge. After a gruesome civil war, the Khmer Rouge took power in 1975 and became one of the bloodiest regimes of the 20th century.

[Stephanie]

16. Thank you!

So for Kerry to say he was in Cambodia? What does that signify? That he was there under orders doing something that he shouldn't have been ordered to do?

[vetwife]

18. None..There were all kinds of covert and othr operations

in Cambodia and Laos but the government never used agent orange either did they?

[nyhuskyfan]

25. We had special ops in Iraq six months before the war began

What makes you think that we couldn't have been on missions in Cambodia before 1969?

[seabeyond]

7. what was exactly what he said

i want truth,..........what are you sying in this post if you dont mind please

i heard kerry say christmas eve 68 but he wasnt in there til somewhere in january of 69

[vetwife]

17. I said it today on Radio Left

The government had people in Cambodia and Laos. I know this to be a fact. They said we weren't there but we were. Vietnam had a lot of dirty secrets and these two locations with miltary operations going on is just a few of the dirty secrets !

[Stephanie]

21. So Kerry testified that the government was lying?

When Kerry said he was in Cambodia, that would have contradicted what the Government was saying they were doing, and what they were allowed to do. So O'Neil is saying it never happened, because to admit it happened would be like saying Nixon was a crook. Right?

Forgive my ignorance. I was around, but I was not reading newspapers at that time. And we didn't learn this in school.

[Erika]

4. Shock! Shock! O'Neill's a Liar

All those Bushies suckered into buying a book of lies. ROFL

[Zen Democrat]

14. Actually, I think the bulk of the books are being bought by Scaife!! n/t

[paintgott]

15. From This Week with G. Stephanopolous

John O'Neill:The whole country's watching him avoid the question(Kerry). You asked about Cambodia? I was on the same river two months after him. Our patrol area ran to Sedak, 50 miles from Cambodia. There isn't any watery border. The Mekong River's like the Mississippi. There were gunboats stationed right up there to stop people from coming. And our boats didn't go north of Sedek. So it was a made up story. He's told it over 50 times,George. That was on the floor of the Senate. He wrote articles about it , it was a malicious story because it painted all the guys above him, all of the commanding officers, in effect, as war criminals that had ordered him into a neutral country. It was a lie.

So O'Neill claimed that he nor Kerry or anybody else was within 50 miles of Cambodia at that time.

[Zen Democrat]

20. My synopsis of this is that Kerry mentioned that he was in Cambodia

during a time when the U.S. wasn't "admitting" to us, the American people, that we were going into other countries. Of course, after this Nixon trumpeted a ground invasion (he called it an "incursion") and a bombing campaign that devastated Cambodia. Kerry was making the point that the government wasn't telling the truth, that he had been sent into Cambodia BEFORE it was officially sanctioned by the government. Remember, Cambodia had a right-wing government and was a friend of the U.S.

Kerry's point of mentioning Cambodia was to say that when he was there at Christmas 1968, he was taking friendly fire from ARVN (the South Vietnamense army) who were firing into Cambodia at the North Vietnamese soldiers who traveled the Ho CHi Minh trail from North Vietnam through the Cambodian jungle and into South Vietnam. The Swift Liars are trying to say this is another example of Kerry lying because he couldnt' have been in Cambodia. And O'Neill has reinforced this by saying over and over that no Swift Boat would have been near the Cambodian border. But, now we know who the real liar is ... as if WE didn't know all along. But now Hannity knows, too.

[Stephanie]

22. Okay, thanks. Clear and concise.

got it

[IndianaGreen]

24. Cambodia did not have a rightwing government in 1968

Cambodia was neutral. We had a Democratic President in 1968. We had no military personnel in Cambodia in 1968.

The Kerry defenders-at-any-cost-despite-the-evidence-to-the-contrary continue to confuse what happened in Cambodia in 1969 after Nixon became President with the situation in 1968.

You don't hear Kerry repeating that 1968 Christmas in Cambodia story anymore. Get a clue! Even Kerry won't repeat his fable anymore.

As to what Kerry did, or did not do in 1969, that's a totally different topic, but he was not in Cambodia in 1968. If he did cross the border then, he should have been court-martialed for disobeying orders and conducting a rogue operation.