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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:10 AM
Original message
"Why Vietnam matters -- long and a bit angry"
Posted by DUer Tansy_Gold in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=664183&mesg_id=664509&page=

...which deserves a read from everyone. Please nominate this for the home page.

=====

Some of us of Vietnam-war-era age, commonly known as baby-boomers because we were born in the ecstatic post-World War II euphoria, may remember that in 1992, Bill Clinton was the first of our generation to run for President, and one of the accusations flung at him by the GOP was that he was a draft dodger, and a draft dodger couldn't be commander in chief of the US military. This was right after the Gulf War that supposedly had banished the Vietnam syndrome from our national psyche.

Bill Clinton not only won in 1992, but he won over a gen-you-whine war hero, GHW Bush, and his national guard boy hero, Danny Quayle. At that time, Quayle's NG service was touted as legitimate, because after all, he could have been called up at any time and sent to Nam.

When Clinton, as C-in-C, presided over the Blackhawk down episode, his lack of military credentials became an issue, however briefly.

And, when Clinton in 1996 defeated ANOTHER gen-you-whine WW2 hero, Bob Dole, the whole issue continued to fester. Vietnam had never been addressed in the political arena, which is where it NEEDED to be addressed. Fortunately, Bill Clinton presided over an era of mostly peace and prosperity, and what little he did militarily was either overshadowed by sex scandal or dismissed as wag-the-dog.

In 2000, however, we had our first presidential race pitting two Vietnam era "vets" against each other. Lacking a wartime context, the 2000 race didn't focus on military issues. Gore was no "hero," and neither was Bush, and there wasn't a war on the horizon. The Balkans were quiet, the cold war was over. There were no enemies in sight. And remember that the right wing ideology NEEDS enemies. They can't exist without them. Without a declared enemy, the military backgrounds of Gore and Bush remained largely unexplored.

But after September 11, and after the start of offensive operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, the issue of chickenhawks re-emerged. The generation that had fought and bled and died in Vietnam was now seeing its children sacrificed in a way they thought they'd never see again: sent to battle by sanctimonious blowhards who had themselves never seen war. The generation that in many cases hadn't even been able to vote during Vietnam was now coming of political age. The issue of military service in Vietnam is immensely relevant to the current political scene.

And I personally think no one understands that better than John Kerry. Unlike John O'Neill, Kerry learned the lesson that his country, the country he had volunteered to risk his life for, had lied to him and put him in a horrible situation for no good reason. Kerry understood, in a way neither O'Neill nor Bush were or are able to do, that serving one's country honorably is not the same as honoring that country's leaders with blind obedience. Kerry learned that serving one's country honorably may mean pulling aside the curtain to reveal its flaws -- the atrocities of a hundred hamlets in Vietnam or the atrocities of a prison in Baghdad.

Bush never learned the lessons, never experienced the horrors that shaped the Vietnam generation. He never knew the self-doubts, the self-hatreds, the fears, the grief. He lied about being in the Air Force and he lied about being in war -- and for many in our generation, even those of us who did not serve, that is a grave dishonor to the hundreds of thousands who did serve and the 58,000 who died.

The Civil War ended officially in 1865, but we all know from the voter purges in Florida that the plantation, segregation, racist sentiment has never died in some parts of the old south. I'm not going to get into a flame war over the confederate flag over this, but in many ways the lingering, festering wounds of the Civil War last so long because the victors -- the North -- were unable and/or unwilling to address the underlying issues. Much the same, IMHO, is true of Vietnam. Like the Civil War, Vietnam divided this country and without the catharsis of a full accounting, we cannot heal.

I think many on DU have read the few accounts by the wives, widows, children of Vietnam vets who were never able to speak of their experiences. Vietnam was a living nightmare to many, some who were there, some who weren't. We've read of the returning vets from Iraq who snap and kill their families and/or themselves. The same thing happened with Vietnam. We've read of the brutality in Iraq, and we know from Sy Hersh and the Toledo Blade and the Winter Soldiers that there was brutality in Vietnam.

In that sense, it's deja vu all over again, and we can't break the cycle until we face the horror that has been pushed into the farthest reaches of memory, until we accept the wrongs that were done by well-intentioned people, until we accept -- as the right wing is totally unable to do -- that the United States of America is an agglomeration of essentially fallible people, who sometimes make really horrible mistakes and then try to justify them, deny them, ignore them, forget them.

As a government, the U.S. never addressed the issues of Vietnam. The vets came home, many of them damaged in mind as well as body, and they were forgotten. No one wanted to hear their stories of shooting old men and children, of bayoneting pregnant women, of burning whole villages to the ground for no reason other than anger and frustration. "The enemy" did things like that, not Americans. We were the saviours of Europe and the Pacific, liberators, heroes. We weren't barbarians.

But Vietnam wasn't a war like any other we had fought, and the men (and women) who came home weren't always treated as heroes the way their fathers and grandfathers had been. So that's why the Swift Boat Vets' lies are bringing back the horrors to the minds of men who have tried for 35 or 40 years to forget. That's why the lies about John Kerry are so important to be exposed. John Kerry had his epiphany in Vietnam, but he at least he had it from experience. He's not a flip-flopper -- he's a man who has the self-presence and self-confidence to admit he has made or is involved in a mistake and then to go forward and try to correct it.

O'Neill and Bush never learned that. Neither did Cheney or Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz or Perle or Ashcroft or any of the rest of the evil GOP termites, gnawing at the framework of our noble experiment. And because the presidential race is between these two elements of the Vietnam experience -- the one who learned from experience and the one who believed what he wanted to believe without risk -- as a nation we have to revisit this and resolve it, or at least try to.

Because in the end, Vietnam is Iraq. If we don't as a nation and as a government learn the lessons of Vietnam once and for all, we will make the same damn mistakes in Iraq, and Iran, and North Korea, and Syria, and we will end up, as someone said, like 19th cnetury Paraguay, who waged war on all her neighbors until 90% of the male population was killed.

The men who are waging the war in Iraq right now are the same ones who avoided the war in Vietnam, not for the reasons Bill Clinton did because he thought the war was wrong. They avoided it because they had other priorities. They thought they were too good to fight. They thought they were entitled to the sacrifice of others. Now it is their peers who have come to challenge them. While it may be difficult for younger voters to understand why this ancient history is being dredged up, it is also important that they understand how history, even recent history, has shaped the world we have today.

Vietnam was never over. There was no victory, there was no surrender, there was no reconciliation. There was only pain and death and despair and anger and frustration and hatred and confusion and disillusionment. Maybe, just maybe, some of that will be resolved in the near future.

For the sake of our Vietnam war generation and for the Iraq war generation, I sure as fucking hell hope so.

Tansy Gold
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enigmatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yep
Great post.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. .
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
3. Great post from Tansy Gold. nt
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MikeG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
4. Vietnam - failure and guilt.
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Droopy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent post, Tansy Gold
It really hadn't occurred to me some of the hurtful feelings all this Vietnam stuff might be bringing up. I can't imagine how Kerry must feel to have his service questioned like that. I'm surprised he hasn't blown his top, yet.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Not just vietnam vets. All vets.
My Desert Storm vet husband has not been doing well with all of these questions and accusations as well as the wasted effort and lives he's seeing.

Pcat
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Bongo Prophet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Worthy reading for all
Kick for the homepage.

:kick:
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OHswingvoter Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. When you serve, you
never get over it. It is with you for life.

But in voting the past should be the past. I wish both campaigns would quit the talk about Vietnam. Kerry would be the better president for our Economic future. Policies of Bushes are destroying the people of this country now. Vietnam is over.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. Or, like the man said, those who do not learn from history are doomed...
to repeat it.

Or as Krugman notes, in his piece yesterday,:

The young John Kerry spoke of leaders who sent others to their deaths because they wanted to seem tough, then "left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude." Fifteen months after George Bush strutted around in his flight suit, more and more Americans are echoing Gen. Anthony Zinni, who received a standing ovation from an audience of Marine and Navy officers when he talked about the debacle in Iraq and said of those who served in Vietnam: "We heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice. I ask you, is it happening again?"

Mr. Kerry also spoke of the moral cost of an ill-conceived war - of the atrocities soldiers find themselves committing when they can't tell friend from foe. Two words: Abu Ghraib.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/24/opinion/24krugman.html?n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fPaul%20Krugman


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joanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Everyone needs to read this
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Twice!
Tansy hits it out of the ballpark!!! :toast:
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Piperay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
12. Very insightful nt
:thumbsup:
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. WOW!
Never served in the Military but that does not diminish my respect for those who did. My father raised me to respect the veterans.
Great post.
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Inland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:11 AM
Response to Original message
14. And Kerry's anti war activism is attacked as treason
because they want to attack today's anti war activism as treason.
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Francine Frensky Donating Member (870 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. Truth vs. Loyalty
John Kerry, from what I've seen of him, is a man who speaks the truth and recognizes the power of truth. I'm too young to have gone through this whole vietnam debate, but I think America has accepted the fact that atrocities were commited, even by americans, in vietnam, and that that war was a foolish one.
Kerry's detractors say telling the truth about vietnam breached his loyalty to his fellow servicemen, and thus are saying that loyalty is a higher value than truth.

In a lot of ways, this sums up bush. The number one trait he seeks in friends and members of his admin. is LOYALTY to BUSH. Think about the loyalty oaths he makes people sign to watch him speak. Think about his admin, where people who are loyal, whether or not they are competent to do their jobs, are retained. Somebody asked, why doesn't bush have any people who know him personally who are against him, as Kerry does? I think it's because of this loyalty methodology. bush doesn't associate with anyone who is not loyal to him. And if you want to stay on as a member of his club, then you have to be loyal.

Ask this question: is it good for our COUNTRY to have people loyal only to bush???? A lot of us who've thought about this think not.

If the media would let the truth come out, bush's little inner-circle-world would collapse.

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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Just like Hitler
Hitler didn't think he was evil; he thought he was righteous, protecting his people and killing the terrorists.

Hitler saw the Jews as the enemy; bushler makes it very clear his 'crusade' (notice Powell used that word, too?) is against Moslems.

Fuer at the Reichstag was Hitler's 911.

Hitler had a Patriot Act to protect the Fatherland.

Hitler waged pre-emptive war and defended it as self defense.

And Hitler prized total blind loyaly uber alles. Just like bushler.

I dunno why people freak when anyone compares the two. I think it's an entire herd of elephants in the room.

5 US warplanes committed an act of war on Iran today...someone ordered them to do it. Russia & Georgia say they're getting ready for war on each other. China owns over half of America, financially. I keep getting the feeling that we're really cheney'd.

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. You're not alone, Lynn
I've been saying boosh would be another Hitler since early 2000.

Again, it's just the lessons of history.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. many Americans think VN was a righteous war and no American commited
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 12:42 PM by bobbieinok
atrocities.

So I disagree with this statement....

'....but I think America has accepted the fact that atrocities were commited, even by americans, in vietnam, and that that war was a foolish one.'

The people who thought the war was righteous felt and feel that they lost the PR battle in the 60s, and they are determined to win it today.

Early on in the Clinton investigations and the 'draft dodger' charge, I became convinced that this desire to 'win' the PR war on VN was one of the driving forces behind the attempt to destroy Clinton. He didn't go to VN AND he demonstrated against the war.

Supposedly the election of Reagan ('morning in America' campaign ads) and Gulf War I restored America's pride and restored military morale. There was not a lot of domestic opposition to Gulf I, so the revisionist RW thought they'd won.

It was a horrific shock that there was such opposition to GWII; the RW is using Kerry to try again to make every American believe that opposition to an American war is treason.

It looked for a while during the VN era that these RW revisionists had won. And then came Kerry leading the VN vets against the war. That infuriated and frustrated Nixon and the gang......but Kerry et al won and the RW lost.

This attack on Kerry only 'wins' with those who at the time thought VN veterans against the VN War were traitors and those today who did not live thru the period and know little about the history of that era.

The RW will refight every battle it lost (civil rights, women's rights, workers' right, environmental rights, social issues, etc) until it has completely won and utterly destroyed its 'enemies.'
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Maeve Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
16. Thank you for reposting this--I might have missed it
Best. Post. Ever.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. I am truly humbled by your tribute, Maeve
I've taken the liberty of revising the essay, which was something I just rushed off "from gut to fingertips." I'm going to send it to Skinner for possible front-page publication, encouraged by all the positive feedback here.


I'm not a veteran -- my husband was in the navy 66-70 (Med fleet), my brother-in-law in DaNang for 14 months. We lost a good friend who was killed in an accident on his ship on the way to Vietnam in 1972.

So I can't speak from personal experience of the war, only of the effect it had on our nation, and that from the perspective of 30+ years on.

But that 30+ years is NOW, and it's what we have to deal with. We have to deal with choosing a leader from between two men who either challenge the legacy of Vietnam or continue its lies and deceit and racist, classist genocide.

Oh, cripe, there goes Tansy, off on one of her endless rants again. . . .somebody shut that woman up, will you?

:evilgrin:
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Wishing you success on your re-write
and eventual publication here, hopefully elsewhere as well.

I've already emailed your response to a few close friends, and would just as suredly send the revised version.

Rant on TG!

dp
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Right on! Fer sure...
Thanks for this most satisfying essay.
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Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Yes
The national nightmare....the Vietnam War.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. .
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. ...
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Kerry the War Hero and the Anti-War Hero VS. AWOL
It is interesting to have Vietnam dredged up again. And with these players.

I have been reading "The Bush Dynasty" and Phillips comments in there that Rumsfeld and Cheney were part of the Ford administration when Saigon fell and the US essentially lost it. And suggested that Iraq was supposed to be a way for them to vindicate themselves.

I wish no democrats were going along with the nonsense of Iraq as a way for the US to feel good about ourselves. I think it's crap.

On the other hand - I know what a problem it is with people over there fighting...

That is why it is really up to us - the non-politicians - to put the pressure on everybody. We don't have to worry about being elected.
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent post!
:kick:
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
23. Profound!
.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. Wow.
Awesome post. That says it all.
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DjTj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
25. The Iraq war generation needs to hear this...
...those of us too young to remember Vietnam know so little about that time - about Kerry and Bush and what they stood for in those days...

As of today, 497 Americans under 25 have died in Iraq.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The lessons of history
Old men start wars and young men (and women) die in them.

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. I don't agree.
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 10:56 AM by Selwynn
I don't agree in this sense: I agree that Vietnam matters. I don't agree - in any way shape or form - that turning this election campaign away from current issues and on to the subject of candidate's records from 30 years ago is what's best for electing a president. In fact I think it is a disgusting travesty that the media is not focusing on real issues like our foreign policy, economy, health care, education, civil liberties, and all kinds of things that are directly relevant to the presidents job description.

Yes, our nation needs healing over Vietnam wounds, and many other wounds that have never healed. But using the memory of Vietnam as a diversion and an excuse to not have a full throated discussion and debate on current issues of government is a tragic commentary on how much of our political process is total bullshit.

I know that nothing in your post directly has to do specifically with the campaign, only pointing out why the pains, open wounds, and lessons of Vietnam are relevant to politics today. I accept that. However right now, I can't separate in my mind the subject of Vietnam from my disgust at how Vietnam has been uses as a political ploy to throw sand in the face of a democratic nominee, allow a tyrant to not face media or societal pressure to address specific issues of his reign, and to let the media ignore every other pertinent debate, and drown out the candidate's message by 100% saturation of the "Vietnam" service debate. It's a disgrace, and it makes me sick.

There is a difference between honoring the tragic memory of Vietnam and looking to have national healing and EXPLOITING the memory of Vietnam and looking to have a political smokescreen and attack. :(

Sel
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