Uggh, Malloy is calling McCain a coward.... Damn, I hate that

[hlthe2b]

I detest McCain's selling out for the Repugs, but GD, he served, he put his life at risk, he went through hell as a POW. THis is WRONG, IMO

[eaprez]

1. I agree...sometimes Malloy goes too far....

[hlthe2b]

3. WAY^ too far, IMO.... I wish Kathy would reign him in.

[krkaufman]

22. Yes, Malloy can be a bit of a whacko. n/t

[Hokie]

2. He is a coward of late

How else can you explain his actions?

[hlthe2b]

8. Malloy is speaking to his war record... not to current actions alone.

Because he dropped bombs from a plane rather than served on the ground.... This is the kind of rhetoric from the left that really fuels the "anti-veteran, anti-military" charges from the right.

I was against the Vietnams war (rabidly) and against Iraq from the start, but I don't extend my disdain for the war to the troops. With the exception of those who willfully engaged in Iraqi torture and other misdeeds, I believe all the troops in Iraq and Vietnam served with honor. A "cowardice" label on them is just too much and Malloy should rethink his vehemence.

[buycitgo]

14. I knew an F4 pilot in grad school

he had a LOT of trouble living with himself, and the main reason he went into education was to make up in some way for the MANY MANY people he MURDERED, his words, when he bombed populated areas in North Vietnam.....that's where most of his missions were.

he was an extrememely tortured soul

sorry I lost touch with him

[hlthe2b]

19. I can well imagine how hard it would be to live with that.... I pity him

and others who came through this and other wars so tortured mentally.

[JI7]

4. don't call him a coward, call him a whore, call him an ass kisser,

or whatever, but don't call him a coward.

[MirrorAshes]

5. No. McCain *IS* a coward, for campaigning with Bush after South Carolina.

Sorry, but its true. He sold his credibility to the republican party.

[hlthe2b]

23. that's fair, but Malloy is directing his cowardice comment at McCain's

past service in Vietnam specifically. That's just wrong IMO.

Call his current actions cowardly, fine, but attacking McCain's service is no better than what the RW is doing to Kerry.

[MirrorAshes]

27. I didn't hear so I didn't get the context

and while I am very dissapointed in McCain I do agree that trashing his service is uncalled for. Not really sure why anybody would take that approach right now

:wtf:

[napi21]

6. I don't like it at all!

I love listening to Malloy, but I don't like that kink of talk of McCain. I guess he shouldn't be praising Max either. He seems to think all military are killers.

[Cornus]

7. He is a coward...

...for not standing up to * and his evil ways, especially considering everything that * did to him in the 2000 primary contest.

[hlthe2b]

10. that's fair, but Malloy is directing his cowardice comment at McCain's

service in Vietnam. That's just wrong, IMO

[Cornus]

16. I agree

I'm not listening, but I have lost all respect for McCain. He's had so many opportunities to stand up against this administration, yet he just doesn't do it and always comes back and *embraces* Bush both figuratively and litterally.

[LincolnMcGrath]

17. If a soldier launches a nuke from a bunker

that ends the war, Is he a hero or a button pusher?

I have no doubt that the Hanoi Hilton was hell. I also know my brother is scheduled for his 6th trip the mess o potamia in a year from now. Not flying @ 400000ft either.

[LincolnMcGrath]

9. Mike has the courage to say the

same thing that cost Bill Maher his job.

[hlthe2b]

13. Not exactly. Maher comment was that it was NOT TRUE that the hijackers

were cowards, given they gave their lives for whatever "crazy" cause. That their absolute commitment to whatever missplaced cause, could not be compared with bombing from thousands of feet up. He didn't call our bomber pilots cowards. He only commented that it was likewise not defensible to call the hijackres cowards.

[LincolnMcGrath]

21. Ahem

"We have been the cowards, lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly,"
Bill Leary Maher 9-26-01

[hlthe2b]

26. I stand corrected. eom

[kikiek]

11. I think he is a coward too. He doesn't have the guts to stand up to

the administration that has attacked him and his family. Instead he stands next to them trying to help them be reelected. I can't stand him anymore either. What do they have on him? Obviously they got him by the balls. He isn't any better than Coleman in my opinion. War service or not. That doesn't give you a pass for life to act like an asshole. Obviously his re election and the pork that is sent to his state is more important than anything moral. He can protest all he wants against the SBVTs. He is endorsing the candidate that sent them. In a way he is playing both sides of the fence. Hate to be on the losing side ya know.

[hlthe2b]

18. Nearly Everyone seems to miss the point: it may be fair to call him a

coward for his current actions. But, I'm disturbed by Malloy's blatant calling of McCain's service as "COWARDLY" He was not calling into question his current actions alone, but calling his service specifically cowardly.

[LincolnMcGrath]

25. Listen closer

He said both

[hlthe2b]

28. How does that change anything? I have no problem with him

deriding McCain's current actions as cowardly or any other term he might choose. But, Malloy repeatedly and speciically derided McCain's service as cowardly. Deriding his service as "cowardly" is no better than what these RW liars are doing to Kerry.

[Monte Carlo]

12. In the world of business, there are no heroes or cowards...

... just money and power.

McCain is a team player. If it involves uneasy relationships, business will be done.

[cynatnite]

15. Coward...No Way! Sell-Out...Definitely!! n/t

[onehandle]

20. McCain is a stooge.

I wouldn't call him a coward. But these days, I'd easily question his measure his substance.

(my spell checker tries to change "McCain" to moccasin)

[vetwife]

24. McCain is a politican not a coward...and a sell out

[MoreDemThanMost]

29. Dumb move

Malloy just lost all respect.

[rullery]

30. Malloy is a punk coward himself!

Frankly I don't know who Malloy is, but knowing that he would insult John McCain and call him a coward is all I need to know about this jerk. McCain went through hell as a prisoner of war, was tortured repeatedly, had his arms dislocated and broken, and to this day is unable to raise his hands above his head. As an older veteran myself, I will not tolerate attacks on a man who served with such distinction. Malloy better stay in his rathole, because if I or other vets come across him, there will be hell to pay!

[kikiek]

31. And Bush still managed to get people to question his patriotism. Attacked

Max Cleland too. Yet can't prove he completed his service himself. Bush is obviously the real coward. The ones not standing up to him are too whether journalist, tv show host, or radio host. Fight the real enemies here.

[hlthe2b]

33. yes.. I agree. But Malloy's doing that puts a big dent in our credibility

As one of the few liberal radio hosts, his words do carry some weight and could readily be used against Dems in general.

[kikiek]

34. I have faith in him. He will right any wrong he made. He gets worked up

and right now I have problems faulting that. I wish the campaign would grab a piece of that.

[hlthe2b]

32. He's a lib radio host, who is usually ok, but on occasion lets

his mouth get away from him in the "heat of the moment." Usually when that happens, he apologizes later, realizing he went too far. I have a hard time believing he really believes that McCain's service was less than honorable and truly deserving of respect/praise.

But, having said that, I too am very angry that he said it. It is wrong when the lying swiftboat vets did it to Kerry, Bob Dole lost whatever remaining respect and distinction he might have had by doing so, and Mike Malloy needs to apologize for his comments as well. If he doesn't do so, he will have lost me and many others as listeners.

[MalloyProducer]

36. Rathole? Punk Coward?

Rathole? Punk Coward? I'm about as out front as possible. I do a radio program. I say what I believe. I don't hide in ratholes. Are you threatening me? McCain bombed and killed civilians in a country we invaded. That is a cowardly act. Period.

M. Malloy

[dennis4868]

39. Keep speaking your mind....

i feel you are the only one we have out there that exposes the Bush crime family....keep up the good work.

[incapsulated]

41. And was tortured in a POW camp for the effort

What you are doing is no better than the Swift boat liars.

You shame the left with this sort of "tit-for-tat". You make our defense of Kerry meaningless.

I would say more, but my post would be deleted and I would get banned.

[dennis4868]

44. MAN YOU HAVE GOT TO RELAX....

use your anger towards Bush not Mike Malloy....If Bush wins it will end our democracy in so many ways.....use that anger on Bush and help us get him out of Gore's house!

[incapsulated]

I don't want to relax, thank you very much

I don't like seeing ANY VETERAN SMEARED. OK??

You fucking relax!

:grr:

[dennis4868]

47. I already am fucking relaxed....

I am just saying that right now we do not have the time to fight among ourselves....we have a cancer in the white house that needs to be taken out one way or the other....our best chance is the election....sorry if I got you all mad and stuff....just trying to prove a point. Good night....and yes, relax! :-)

[incapsulated]

49. I know who the real enemy is...

My point is this sort of thing from our side isn't going to help defeat that enemy. And it is wrong.

Good night.

(No, I'm not really that worked up, heh)

[Jack Rabbit]

35. I agree. I hate that, too.

McCain is a Republican and we have honest disagreements with him.

He is not a coward. In a pinch, I could vote for him.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. I'd Vote For Him Against Bush And Zell Miller (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I'd Vote For Him Against Bush And Zell Miller (nt)

[Jack Rabbit]

61. I was thinking more in terms of Boss Tweed or Dan Rostenkowski

Not all crooked politicians are Republicans.

[dennis4868]

37. do you have n exact....

quote from Malloy knocking McCain by calling him a coward by fighting in Vietnam? I have been listening to Malloy for a long time (not tonight) and he has talked about McCain plenty but never called him a coward for fighting in Vietnam....are you sure you got it right? If he did say it, it is probably because he is so mad about McCain selling himself for Bush and his crime family that he lost control of his words for McCain....

Give Malloy a break....he is the best we've got at exposing the Bush crime family....people make mistakes...we are all human....sheeesh!

[hlthe2b]

38. Others here heard it as well. In fact, Mike Malloy just posted

that he does believe in the words used earlier (see his post a few above). I am saddened by that, but he is free to have his opinions. I agree with his assessment that Vietnam was wrong, and our policies were cowardly. But, I do differentiate between the acts of the government and those of the troops sent there to conduct that policy.

As you know, there are no transcripts available, so I'm not sure why you would think anyone here could provide you word for word quotes of a very long detailed radio piece.

But, note that Mike did weigh in a few posts up. No one here has excoriated Mike (with the exception of one poster who did not know who he is)--only expressed disagreement and disappointment.

Sadly, Mike does not believe it is a mistake to call McCain's service cowardly. That is a big mistake imho and I'd truly like to have him answer how his words are any different than the lying swift boat accusations being levied against Kerry.

[AmerDem]

40. I think McCain is now a coward also

What the hell does his Vietnam sufferage have to do with him now sucking shrubs dick?

[hlthe2b]

42. If you read the posts, no one here has argued that McCain is not

contemptable or even cowardly in his CURRENT actions. The comments on AAR were specifically directed at McCain's Vietnam service and repeatedly referred to as "cowardly." Indeed, his Vietnam service has nothing to do with his current disgusting actions. But that was not the point being discussed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. He's Calling McCain's War Record Cowardly....

That's absurd..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. He's Calling McCain's War Record Cowardly....

That's absurd..

[AmerDem]

104. at 12:45 I didn't have to read the thread

I took it from the opening post. Well, anyone who said McCain was a coward during Vietnam isn't someone others should be listening to much. i heard that Malloy's name thrown around here but have never listened to him. Doesn't sound like the guy has too much credibility.

[Dookus]

43. Then Malloy is an ass

I didn't "grok" him when he started on AAR and everybody told me to give him a chance. Well, now he pulls this. He gets no other chance. He's a jerk.

[MalloyProducer]

53. McCain

One more time: Anyone, ANYONE, who bombs civilians from an aircraft at 35,000 feet, who incinerates innocent men, women and children, who destroys non-combatants, who commmits these acts of pure terror aganst a population that cannot defend itself, is NOT a hero. He is, in fact, a coward, a murderous coward.

Kerry fought on the ground, facing his enemy, an enemy that was armed and could have killed him. That is not cowardice. That is war. Bombing civilians is not war. It is murder.

John McCain is a coward.

That's all I have to say about this.

Mike Malloy (using Kathy's login)

[Dookus]

54. Screw that

malloy is an ass.

[dennis4868]

55. I do believe....

Mike has a point....there is a ton of evidence that in Vietnam we bombed thousands of thousands of innocent women and chilren on purpose....if McCain knew this at the time he is a coward....would you agree to that?

[Dookus]

57. No I don't agree

any man who has endured what McCain endured as POW is not a coward. There are many things we can fault McCain on, but calling him a coward is just ridiculous.

Malloy is an ass.

[dennis4868]

58. so basically you are....

saying that is a man knowingly kills innocent people and then a year later he is taken hostage he is not a coward an ass for what he did the year before?

[Dookus]

59. No

it's never a good idea to put words in other people's mouths.

I believe he was engaged in a war that was wrong. That's not his fault. I believe he served honorably and did so for the very best of reasons. I believe he suffered near-unendurable travails for five and a half years. I believe Mike Malloy is an ass.

[hlthe2b]

63. By that logic, all those bomber pilots in WWII-- US and allies alike

were "cowards," despite the German and Japanese bombers coming at them in the sky (and I'm not discussing those who dropped the nukes). While no one wants innocent civilians to be killed, that is an unfortunate reality of war. I suppose one could argue that bombs should never be dropped and that all wars should be land wars. But those who believe that should really spend time reading the HORRENDOUS history of WWI-- the last war truly fought on foot and with absolutely devastating casualties resulting. Land-only wars will definitely be drawn out because arms storage areas, and munitions plants can not be taken out by air. Civilians still get caught up in the melee' no matter how "surgical" one tries to be with their combat strikes.

Avoiding war is the answer; but once engaged, calling out those who serve (especially those serving under a draft) cowards for orders followed that were consistent with the "rules of war" (i.e., Geneva Conventions) is just wrong IMO.

[librechik]

72. Ha, Dookus. Mike is talkin back at you. observe above. n/t

[newsguyatl]

110. real mature response... as usual.

i support mike's right to have an opinion on the matter. and agree with some of what he says.

too many of you mccain-loving du'ers need to get off your high horses.

[hlthe2b]

111. I'm a little surprised that you conclude that most here are

"McCain-loving." Acutally, I look through these posts and see quite the opposite. Disdain for the man and his current actions, while separating his service some 35 years ago.

I also don't think most here are attacking Malloy nor certainly not suggesting he has no right to an opinion on the matter. I think more (like me) are a bit surprised at his strongloy worded opinion last night and are seeking to understand it. With our eyes on the fight ahead, some may share my concern that we not be perceived as attacking other veteran's records during a time when we are trying to counter the lies against Kerry's own service. So, while one might agree with Malloy or at least totally support his right to his opinions, I don't think it is wrong for us to question whether this kind of strong rhetoric is helpful or harmful to our efforts to address the Swift Boat Liars and to reduce possible damage to Kerry among undecideds.

[JI7]

56. that's similar to what right wingers do

when they rationalize their claims that kerry really isn't honorable or heroic. go into all these weird reasons about differences.

fact is that mccain was in a war zone, that's why his plane was SHOT DOWN. he is not a coward.

call him a bush ass kisser, call him a whore for supporting bush, but he is not a coward, especially in regards to his military service.

[librechik]

67. Hi, Mike! I get your point completely

and agree, of course. But it's the same opinion which got Bill Maher canned. Thank goodness you are at an unabashedly liberal and dissenting network, otherwise I would fear for your job! We need your heat, Mike!

Good grief, you were on fire tonight--now I'm afraid you're getting flamed.

Put on the asbestos undies. It's immolation season.

[rinsd]

112. Karl Rove sends his best.....

...for yet another idiotic smearing of military pilots.

He was shot down for crissakes. It's not like the NV didn't have air defenses.

Thank god you're only know in a limited circle or this would be the next ad of some stupid ass GOP 527. What are you a Stern wannabe that concentrates on politics?

[tuvor]

48. Service shouldn't get you carte blanche, though.

There ARE limits.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't read enough of the posts. Didn't realize we had another military disser, this time on the lib's side.

(I AM taking you at your word, hlthe2b, that he's calling him a coward for doing what was expected of him by his superiors, whether he was flying a plane or out there beside Kerry. I don't listen to his show.)

[incapsulated]

52. No, but...

If we are going to call all of the Air Force pilots cowards now, even those who got shot down and taken prisoner and tortured, we are really moving into dangerous ethical territory.

You could just as easily say that Kerry was a coward because he shot at people from the safety of a boat that could get away quickly...

I really don't want to go there.

[tuvor]

60. Incapsulated, this is why I like you American DUers.

If this Soviet Canuckistani irked a freeper unintentionally or otherwise on one of their boards, I know I'd get beat down for, well, not being an American in the first place.

Thanks for being decent.

[incapsulated]

62. Cool!

Does that mean we can move in with you if the Chimp wins? :hi:

[tuvor]

65. Come on up! But...

Sorry, I edited the last post because I thought it could be taken as condescending. Typical Canadian anxiety complex about how they appear to non-Canadians.:D

If bush wins again--I mean, if he wins, I dunno. Wouldn't it be better if we came down there to help you guys out?

That'd be something worth considering, but I'm afraid I'm too happy here (Vancouver Island, to be specific), despite all the bullshit politicians we have.

[incapsulated]

71. You guys are worse than the Brits, sometimes, lol

Sorry, I edited the last post because I thought it could be taken as condescending. Typical Canadian anxiety complex about how they appear to non-Canadians.:D

But who would we have to teach us to be both polite and funny? :) Don't think anyone can help us with politics though, we don't even listen to each other, we'll start another Civil War first...

Seriously, if the Chimp steals this one there is going to be a surge in visa applications up there, heh. Not that I would need that excuse to visit! (Plus, I'm in NY so I can run for the border if it comes to that...)

[tuvor]

78. Fingers crossed.

if the Chimp steals this one there is going to be a surge in visa applications up there,

Praying that it doesn't come to that. No offense, of course you know what I mean.

Cheers!

[Bongo Prophet]

97. Oh, you are so fortunate, tuvor!

My wife and I spent a vacation on the Islands there in 98, and loved it so much we extended for over a month's stay. Drove from Victoria up to Campbell River and hit Salt Spring, Gabriola, Denman and Quadra in a rented red firebird convertible, whheee!
The people were WONDERFUL and it was such a contrast from Texas, to say the least. Open and non-paranoid, a world where Reaganism never took hold.

At the time, we were stressing out here in TX about Gdubya and the cabal's longer term plans (there were whispers at the time) and were looking for a possible Sanctuary. Unfortunately our fortunes and investments turned to shit when he took the election and things turned sour quickly...now underemployed graphic artists digging out of debt. 12 acres of land that just...won't..sell...

Now, we are thinking of going off in a RV and wonder the NWest for awhile, looping up there, and selling artskills/temping and electronic music, etc. The stress down here is unreal and it is FREEP city.

Wave to a seal for us, eh?

peace!
:toast:
And sorry for off topic!

[hlthe2b]

64. you needn't take me at my word at all. Mike Malloy (MalloyProducer)

has posted here twice in this thread above. So, you can read his own comments.

[Leilani]

66. This is just the sort of CRAP that made the Dems

a monority party for years.

I am so sick of this crap!

John Kerry served his country honorably.

John McCain served his country honorably & almost died.

Some people would be happy if he had died.

I thought I could make my home in this party. I am not so sure of that anymore.

The POWs who saved McCain s life are mad at him because he is defending Kerry. Bud Day, Medal of Honor Winner, was McCains roomate in the Hanoi Hilton & has publically disagreed with him.

What more do you want from this man?

He is trying to be a Republican & defend his friend from unfair smears. Is that horrible?

He is going against his party, his friends, his fellow POWs to defend Kerry.

I am so disappointed & angry tonite. I am fed up with politcs.

[hlthe2b]

73. keep your perspective....

Dems are definitely the "big tent" party, so you can't help but find extremes of thinking within our group. But, you'll also find plenty who believe as you do.

[incapsulated]

76. Leilani...

He doesn't speak for the "Party" any more than you or I do. Our's is a big tent that at least allows discussion and disagreement amongst ourselves.

To me, this is an ethical and philosophical discussion. But it cannot apply to someone who has paid the price for whatever "sin" he commited, as McCain has, he was lucky to survive at all, and he has defended Kerry. And it has NO place whatsoever in a public political argument like this. If we are going to "go there" there is no point in defending ANY Vietnam veteran, let alone someone like Kerry who volunteered to go. Since we can say that anyone who went over there was "wrong" because the war was "wrong" and the only "honorable" thing to do was to refuse to serve.

[Leilani]

80. I HATE smearing of vets

Incap, you & I were big Clark supporters, & we had to fight off the war criminal, SOA crazies.

There are just too many Dems who despise the military & everyone associated with it.

I am just very bitter.

[incapsulated]

81. Don't be bitter...

You're too good for that.

Besides, what would Wes think? (Guilt-trip, Guilt-trip!)

:hug:

[Leilani]

83. Wes was too good for them

Best that he is out of this crap.

[Bush was AWOL]

84. Criticizing a veteran who fought in a combat zone is beyond pathetic

(Leilani, I am not referring to you, but I get fired up when vets are disrespected in any way).

Anyone who does so, is a pure piece of shit in my most honest opinion. You ever been there? If not, keep your mouth shut and pay respect to the real heros.

[JI7]

77. hey, you aren't alone, i feel the exact same way you do

i don't even listen to malloy but it makes me sick anytime i see this type of crap from both sides, but sometimes more when it comes from democrats because i feel we should know better.

another thing is that the fact that mccain has not completely come to our side as zell miller has done with them, makes his defense of kerry and condemnation of the attacks on kerry all the more powerful.

[Leilani]

82. No, you do not feel the same way as I do

You call him a whore & ass kisser.

He is a Republican, damn it.

He campaigned for Bush in 2000, & made a speech at the 2000 convention, so this is nothing new.

McCain has more balls than anyone in EITHER party. He has publically disagreed with his lifelong friends, POWs, Etc. in order to defend Kerry.

Kerry is using McCain in an ad right now against Bush.

Dems love to use McCain when it suits them, & then spit on him.

The posts here at DU against McCain are EXACTLY what the Freepers are posting about him.

Both sides hate him, so he must have guts.

[JI7]

85. for campaigning with Bush , not for his vientam record

i'm saying there is a difference between attacks on him for his military service as malloy did and other things. not that i agree with it.

the same thing with john kerry, it's one thing to be critical of him for his protests or whatever and not like it, which is a matter of opinion, but there is a difference between doing that an lying and attacking a person's military service.

and i don't hate him or think he is a whore. i'm saying some things go too far such as calling him a coward on his military record.

[jonnyblitz]

68. he may be some things but NOT a coward

He was a POW forever it seemed and he held up quite nicely.

[0rganism]

69. "he went through hell as a POW" - So answer Malloy's question, then

"What would we do if we caught someone who dropped bombs on Chicago from 40,000 feet?" (paraphrasing)

What have we already done to people who had NOTHING TO DO with the attacks against our nation, cooling their heels in Bucca and Gitmo and Abu Ghraib?

The Vietnamese actually let John McCain live, after dropping tons of high-explosive, napalm, and defoliant on civilian populations. He's a very lucky man, considering.

[dennis4868]

70. agree

[hlthe2b]

75. I count myself among the lucky being too young (and too female) to have

been drafted in Vietnam. I did not agree with that war, detested that war, and to the extent a young teen could protest effectively, I did. I don't know what I would have done if subject to the draft. Nonetheless, those who were drafted did not exactly have the luxury to refuse orders that were lawful within the rules of engagement and the Geneva Conventions.

I will not justify or defend US policy. If I did, I certainly wouldn't be working as hard as I do to stop it/change it. But, I won't castigate the poor SOB who ended up in uniform as a pawn to very wrong-headed US policy. If you have evidence that McCain was some kind of Lt Calley guilty of intentional war crimes, I'd dearly love to see it. Absent that, I don't think we bring any honor to ourselves or our efforts to defend Kerry against the lies being levied, by deriding McCain's military record. To do so, is plainly hypocritical, IMO.

[0rganism]

88. Did you think John McCain was DRAFTED? *boggle*

John McCain went to the US Naval Academy in 1958 where he was trained as an OFFICER to fly planes, which he did for the next 9 years until he was shot down in 1967.

Robert MacNamara, the Kennedy/Johnson SOD, estimates that during Operation Rolling Thunder (1965-68, McCain's gig), while dropping 800 tons of bombs per day over North Vietnam, the USAF killed or injured MORE THAN A MILLION VIETNAMESE PEOPLE each year.

"Nobody made me fly over Vietnam. That's what I was trained to do and that's what I wanted to do."
John McCain: An American Odyssey, by Robert Timberg

Senator John McCain made his career choice, to drop explosives on civilians from on high. Don't apologize for him, he wouldn't want you to do that. He's PROUD of killing those people.

[incapsulated]

90. Then vote for W

He REFUSED to go and fly in Nam! He's my Hero! :loveya:

[0rganism]

91. Oh, no thanks, I'd rather vote for the real hero in this race

W didn't REFUSE to fly in 'Nam, he was never REQUIRED to do so. Thanks to his daddy's connections, W got assigned to "better himself" in a champagne unit of the Texas Air National Guard, before he got himself a transfer to an Alabama National Guard position for which he didn't show up. But you knew that.

I'll be voting for the man who, although he could have avoided the draft in college, volunteered for service as an enlisted man, and then volunteered to serve on the front lines, and then, after seeing the clusterfuck for himself, returned to this country and LED THE VETERANS IN PROTEST AGAINST THE STUPID WAR. And I bet you will be too.

[incapsulated]

93. That's right, Kerry *volunteered for duty* in Vietnam

And not really because he believed so much in the war, but because service was expected of him. Maybe McCain felt the same way. Who are you to judge? McCain doesn't, he defended Kerry.

Lay off McCain. (and look up sarcasm).

[0rganism]

94. Fuck your "sarcasm" very much

Did you really think I didn't get your little joke?

Only John Kerry expected military service from John Kerry. What makes the difference -- for me, at least -- is that he was able to see the mistake for what it was and act responsibly on his return. And watch -- it is for this singularly responsible and heroic act of protest that he will be most excoriated by the media and his peers.

I don't blame John McCain for his cowardice -- it was strategic cowardice, and he was lucky enough to survive the consequences. War is full of cowards and cowardly acts. But I'm not going to bow before McCain's altar like he's a second Jesus, either. Having the requisite basic sense of decency to defend John Kerry from the swiftboat liars doesn't immunize him from his actions.

Since you're here and so full of hip "sarcasm", maybe you can answer the question. What would WE, Americans, do with people who dropped bombs on Chicago from 40000 feet? Would we be extra nice to them? Give them flowers and chocolates? Shower them with kisses?

Please, be extra "sarcastic" in your reply, since I have my dictionary all ready to go.

[incapsulated]

95. I'm so glad you are eager to dole out your hatred for a veteran

Who was captured and tortured for his service.

How good and righteous you must feel. So much better than the Swift boat liars, who at least served themselves before attacking another veteran.

Sorry, I have no sarcasm left, I leave that to you and your bullshit. And who said anyone other than John himself expected service? And do you know of the inner thoughts and motivations and feelings of McCain, another veteran? Or is your judgment and hatred only for Republican Vets?

[0rganism]

99. Funny you should mention "Dole"

Quite the wordsmith, eh? Always ready to jump in with a kind nod to our veterans, even when they attack a former shipmate with slander of the most egregious sort.

I think you have plenty of sarcasm left, and you mix it in quite well with the rest of your bullshit. Keep it up, you could have a lucrative career in apologetics.

[Leilani]

96. You are such an expert & know everything!

Right now, Americans & Iraqis are dying.

Your hero ( who was an officer, not enlisted), voted for this war.

You said he learned his lesson in Vietnam, & came back & protested.

If he learned the lesson of bogus, unjust wars, why is he supporting the Iraq War?

[0rganism]

98. No, but I can do basic research

> Your hero ( who was an officer, not enlisted

John Kerry entered the Navy as an enlisted man. He then went to Naval Officer Candidate school, and left with a commission. He could have been rejected from the NOC and spent the rest of his tour as a non-com.

> You said he learned his lesson in Vietnam, & came back & protested.

Unfortunately, America did not its lessons from the Vietnam War. Nor, apparently, did John Kerry. Seeing the disaster of the Vietnam War was not enough to keep him from making the obvious mistake of trusting the bush crime family.

> If he learned the lesson of bogus, unjust wars, why is he supporting the Iraq War?

If supporting the Iraq War is incompatible with learning the lesson of the Vietnam entanglement, then either he does not support the war or he has not learned the lesson. That does not, in any way, affect my contention that "he was able to see the mistake for what it was and act responsibly on his return."

I don't know why John Kerry decided to support the Iraq War. Perhaps it was political expedience trumping long-buried idealism, perhaps it was the immense bounty of bullshit spouted by minions of Caligula. It was hardly his finest moment, nor that of the vast majority of our other members of congress, including your hero, John McCain.

[Leilani]

100. I learned the lesson of Vietnam

& supported an anti-war candidate, Wes Clark.

That seems a hell of a lot more consistent than some.

[0rganism]

101. Uh huh, Kerry wasn't my first choice either, but he's the nominee

Like Mike Malloy, I supported anti-war candidate Dennis Kucinich. Now that John Kerry is the alternative to bush, I will go balls-out to support him. And so, I suspect, will you.

[hlthe2b]

107. Well, on this piece I definitely agree with you Organism

I just don't want to apply broad stroke condemnation of those who fought in Vietnam, especially those who were drafted to it. No, I wasn't certain whether McCain came in commissioned, although I thought he probably had.

Bomber pilots had a mission, including providing cover for the poor guys on the ground. They did face danger from enemy planes and from those firing from the ground.

Napalm was horrible. Bombs are horrible. Landmines are certainly horrible. Soldiers crazed with fear can also be horrible if they indiscriminately kill and abuse civilian populations, whether on the ground or in the air. Bottom line, we have not yet come up with a sane way to conduct war which spares civiians and their property while taking out only the opposing forces and their arms. However....

While it always seemed the worse oxymoron to say there is a right way and a wrong way to conduct war, there are basic tenets that most countries agreed upon long ago. That we have been as guilty as others in violating these rules of engagement and conventions of war is unconscionable and sadly we have not learned how to hold these horrible men in power accountable nor to avoid such administrative misconduct in the future. That is the true tragedy of the United States.

At the same time, soldiers who knowingly violate these without having their own lives in direct danger, such as those who committed the atrocities at Mi Lai, deserve condemnation. But, most of these kids only wanted to come home alive. They were drafted by their WWII generation parents into service and told this was their duty to country and that they had no choice. I empathize and will not judge as cowardly those who went and served as honorably as they could. Nor would I have condemned those who recognized early on the wrongness of Vietnam and refused to serve. My contempt is reserved for those who played the elitist games to avoid the draft or (as with Bush) to avoid the commitment to alternate service that protected them from Vietnam service as well as those who criticize those who served (including McCain) while continuing to justify that war and dare to send our young to new (& unnecessary) wars. Blaming the "cannon fodder"-- the earnest soldier and true pawns of corrupt administrations-- just seems cruel and exceptionally wrong to me.

[underseasurveyor]

87. What would we do and say if someone dropped a bomb on Chicago?

Or some other US city? What would we call those who did it?
We all know the answer to that!
Then what would we do after that?
We all know the answer to that too!

Good point too, Organism. About McCain being allowed to live.

[0rganism]

92. Strange, none of the newborn Malloy haters will answer this question, eh?

Come on, DUers, step up to the plate. Tell me how what John McCain did was HEROIC and BRAVE.

Were the people he bombed from 40,000 ft. heroic and brave, too? Gee, I'd like to ask some of them about it, BUT THEY'RE DEAD.

[hlthe2b]

108. The question implies no difference between bombing as a course of war

and terroristic attack with no forewarning. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was unprovoked and served as their declaration of war, so it is not quite the clearest example I'm looking for. But, should Japan or Germany have successfully bombed a US city AFTER war was declared between the US and axis powers, certainly it would have energized retribution in our own war efforts against them--including undoubtedly their own innocent civilians. Yet, if we managed to capture some of their troops shortly after their attack on that US city, they would have been prisoners of war and subject to Geneva Conventions, which prohibit the kind of torture and abuse that we shamefully have engaged in at Abu Ghraib and which McCain faced at the hands of the North Vietnames. Would we allow these enemy troops to live? I certainly hope so. I certainly would demand that we do so.

We agreed to appropriate and honorable treatment of enemy captured as part of these conventions and as such have both the responsbility to comply and the right to expect our enemy to do so. Even though our enemy (as was certainly the case at the hands of some Japanese) may ignore these conventions, I expect us to follow them. That is why those responsible in our current administration should be facing charges before the Hague, IMO.

Do I defend the indiscriminate killing of Afghani and Iraqi civilians? Of course not. But, I hole the policy makers responsible first and foremost and not those who sought only to serve honorably.

Finally, I am most certainly NOT a "Malloy Hater" and hope that statement was not directed towards the majority on this thread, who only seek to understand his views in context to their own or to express disappointment. I appreciate malloyt he does and the contribution he makes, but will not be a sycophant to anyone. His very vocal views on this disappoint me and I think hurt us in our attempts to defend Kerry, so I will express that disappointment in civil discourse with the hope of clarifying or even possibly changing Malloy's views. As is clear from his post, he is committed to his views and I respect that. I also hope he will respect our concern that such vocal attacks on McCain's Vietnam service (regardless of his feelings) do not serve us well at a time when we are trying to counter the lying attacks on Kerry's record.

[mitchtv]

74. He's just playing political Hardball

tweaking him a little.

[incapsulated]

79. Who is Malloy to make up the "rules"?

Who get's to decide what is right or wrong, who is or isn't a "coward"?

Every single war will have civilian casualties. Innocent men, women and children will die in every war, guaranteed, period.

Therefore, participating in any war, in whatever capacity, makes you an accomplice to those deaths.

Therefore, anyone in any war who is not in the direct line of fire, is a "coward", if you follow this line of reasoning.

Hell, just paying my taxes supports a war that is killing innocents as we speak. I am in no danger myself. Am I a coward because I do not refuse to pay my taxes and take the consequences of that action? Should I move to Canada?

[flaminbats]

86. We all hate partisan politics..

but Republicans have made this election as hateful and divisive as possible. Republicans who once mocked Zell as being amoral, now proclaim him to be their man of principle. How quickly would they turn on McCain if he switched parties?

This election is far bloodier than those in the past, but mainly because Democrats have chosen to fight back this time!

[JLFinch]

89. Stop John O'Neill - This is how

John E. O'Neill
CLEMENTS O'NEILL PIERCE WILSON ET AL
1000 LOUISIANA ST STE 1800
HOUSTON, TX, 77002
phone [phone]

Bar Card Number: 1529750

John E. O'Neill, author of Unfit for Command, is an attorney licensed and practicing in Texas. Rumor has it he thinks he will be appointed a federal judge...let's not let that happen.

According to the Texas Disciplinary Rules of Professional Conduct:

Rule 8.02 Judicial and Legal Officials (a) A lawyer shall not make a statement that the lawyer knows to be false or with reckless disregard as to its truth or falsity concerning the *qualifications or integrity* of a judge, adjudicatory official or public legal officer, or of a *candidate for election* or appointment to judicial or legal office.

Rule 8.04 Misconduct (a) A lawyer shall not: (3) engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation;

The State Bar can sanction him, suspend his license or even DISBAR him.

PLEASE WRITE, FAX, FED EX THE TEXAS STATE BAR TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THESE VIOLATIONS - including specific examples would be best:

Texas State Bar Address

P.O. Box 12487
Austin, Texas 78711

1414 Colorado St.
Austin, TX 78701

Fax: [phone]

Telephone Numbers --- but writing is better

Toll Free: [phone]
Local: [phone]


FEEL FREE TO POST THIS EVERYWHERE AND E-MAIL IT EVERWHERE - I can't make a new thread but would be great if someone else would create this as a new thread.
.

[JSJ]

102. mccain is a right-wing gop sniper and ho-daddy n/t

[rullery]

103. Malloy, go Cheney yourself!

Thanks for all the input fellow DUers, both pro and con. As a veteran I personally have no use for folks like Malloy who will denigrate the honorable service of my fellow veterans. But I do understand what a divisive issue war is. It took me awhile back in the seventies to understand that what Kerry did when he came back from Vietnam was in fact honorable. Having recognized what a huge mistake it was for us to be in Nam, Kerry stood up and protested it.

Bush's war in Iraq is an even bigger mistake IMO. When no WMDs were found it became apparent that this war was totally unnecessary. It has been a distraction from our mission in Afghanistan, to ferret out Osama Bin Laden and his ilk. Now as for Kerry's support, let it be clear that he voted with most senators to give Bush the authority to wage war IF IT BECAME NECESSARY! It was done in the mistaken belief that Saddam Hussein had WMDs and was preparing to use them, and with the understanding and promise that all other avenues would be exhausted first, to resolve the issue with Saddam.

Bush broke his promise, failing to give the inspectors time to complete their work in Iraq, and going to war with only a meager "coallition of the willing". Then when Bush asked for $87 billion to fund his war, Kerry voted against it as a protest vote, understanding that there were enough votes for the bill to pass, as it did. The republicans have tried to use this vote to say that Kerry voted against giving our troops in Iraq the tools they needed to fight the war. Not true! It was Bush who sent many of our troops into battle without body armor, and it is ridiculous to blame that on Kerry.

So what do we do now? Some, like Kucinich, would have us cut and run. But Kerry and many others see that having gone into Iraq, however misguided it was, we now have an obligation to the brave Iraqis who are with us, to give them some chance of establishing a democracy in Iraq (or what passes for democracy in the Middle East).
I don't support a long stay for us in Iraq, and neither does Kerry. We should do what we can to train an Iraqi security force, and then get out. Thanks to Bush though, our credibility is badly tarnished throughout the world, and it will take many years to repair that IMO.

[Paulie]

105. You knowledge of Kucinich is about the same as you know about Malloy

Dennis' plan was never cut-and-run. And you admitted you don't even know who Malloy is! OMG!

The brave Iraqi's who are with us just rounded up the journalists around Najaf AT GUN POINT to have an impromptu press conference with the chief of police.

It's not a smear to say the facts (not truth, FACTS), that bombing civillians from 35000 feet isn't an act of bravery.

[rullery]

106. I do know Dennis Kucinich, and I respect him.

While it is true that I don't know Malloy (and don't want to), where do you get the idea that I don't know Kucinich? He was mayor of Cleveland, Ohio at a very young age, and is now an outstanding Congressman. I admire and respect him for stating his positions clearly and boldly, and sticking by them. I watched the presidential debates, and I know that Dennis wants us out of Iraq as soon as possible. His position is perfectly valid, given the fact that we should never have gone to war in Iraq in the first place. If Kerry had chosen Dennis as his running mate instead of Edwards, I could have supported that decision. It might have helped us win Ohio I think. So be careful that you don't make assumptions about fellow DUers, just because we differ about some things.

[Paulie]

109. Dennis NEVER was for cut-and-run

And by saying so, shows your lack of knowledge of Dennis and his policies. So you don't even KNOW what Dennis' position is, beyond getting out as soon as possible? OMG!

I just re-listened to the show from last night. Why don't you go to www.whiterosesociety.com and grab last nights archive? Around 35 minutes into the show is Mike's comments on McCain. Wouldn't it be helpful to know what he said, and the context it was said in, before you start ranting?

I don't assume anything (I'm an internal auditor for a living), I go by the FACTS of the case. And it's clear that you're great and jumping in on the bandwagon but not doing so well in actually finding out what the deal is.

I don't know you from Adam's house cat, but I can read what your typed!

And a general comment: Is Laurie England a HERO because she served in Iraq?