OH .... GROW UP!

[mzmolly]

For Gawd sakes, how long have some of you people been observing politics.



This is how deals are done people.

Allow me to break it down for you.

McCain asked the Kerry camp to pull an ad using his image and also said he would discuss the coming 527 Swiftboat lies with Bush in the process. The Kerry camp agreed not only because Bush and McCain cut a deal with the Kerry camp, but because just last week Kerry called on Bush to pull BULLSHIT ads.

We can't/won't be given all the details, this is how the game is played. Kerry WON this battle.

:spank:

/rant.

Thanks for letting me vent, I mean NOTHING PERSONAL to any ONE in particular ...

:hi:

NOW LET'S JUST HOPE KERRY'S ORIGINAL AD GETS MEGA MEDIA PLAY as they discuss it's being pulled :evilgrin:

[Malva Zebrina]

1. I am grown up

and posting my opinions that are as valid as any . There is always the delete button if you know you are being condescending.

[mzmolly]

4. Your opinions are as valid as any, and there's always the ignore

button if you feel your being "condescended" to. ;)

This happens to be my opinion. Sorry if I offended. I meant not to.

[Malva Zebrina]

12. I know

but it is a little childish to make an insulting charge and then to say ignore it in the same sentence and expect that people will do that. Do you mean it or do y ou not mean it? If you are serious and mean what you write as your opinion, then why make apologies for your opinion, which in this case is that we are not grown up and if you did not mean it, then why not edit the post.

[mzmolly]

19. I thought the behavior by some here was childish. I was trying to put

this in a *light* manner.

I attempted to clarify my statements in the beginning so that no one took offense. :hi:


I said "oh grow up" in the spirit of say ... Joan Rivers. I did edit my post as well.

[blm]

32. I agree. There's Oh grow up! with a wink... and Oh grow up! with a sneer.

Your wink was amongst friends.

[demnan]

2. Yeah I agree

my take exactly. I knew when I saw that ad it wasn't going to play much. McCain is a Republican. But Kerry won this fight.

[Flubadubya]

3. I wouldn't count on the "mega media play"...

Sorry, but that's the last thing they will do, especially since McCain has asked that it not be shown anymore. Besides, even before it was pulled, the media, in discussing it, did just that and nothing more. As far as I know they haven't even shown a snippet of it, much less the whole thing.

I'm not so sure Kerry won on this one, but then I'm not a politician either. All I can do is put my hope and trust in Kerry and his people to do the right thing <fingers crossed>.

[chimpymustgo]

7. The media will NOT show that ad again.

Take it to the bank. Maybe Olberman. But all of CNN's coverage today shows generic footage of McCain and/or Bush - and the story is NOW - how they are going to work together to clean up the airwaves of ads by these "shadow" 527's.

Sorry.

[Carni]

18. I agree they won't show it

I haven't seen it at all and have barely heard it mentioned by the CNN's et al.

Faux will probably show it to rally and entertain their base but that will be about it.

[kentuck]

5. I agree....

I think some people wish for Kerry to be as short-sighted as they...:)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

6. Right, but the Kerry camp has already put on the table what they are

giving up (running the most excellent "Old Tricks" McCain spot on TV). If the Bush camp has not yet publicly revealed exactly what their concession is, they can still back out. And since they have revealed their character in spades every day the last 4 years, I would have no reason to expect they would not.

The only saving grace is that, whatever the brokered deal is, perhaps McCain has given approval for the Kerry camp to resume TV broadcast of "Old Tricks" if Bushco backs out on their end.

I don't think that there is any obligation on the Kerry camp's end to not run the ad because of McCain's wishes. I assume it is purely out of respect, and the fact that McCain has stood up for his fellow veteran on issues like this despite his support of the Bush campaign.

[DancingBear]

8. I completely agree with you

but I don't consider myself "grown up."

What can this mean??? :) :) :hi:

[gardenista]

9. BINGO!!!! DING DING DING!!!!!

Thanks, I couldn't have said it better myself.

[wicket]

24. Amen to that!

:thumbsup:

[goodhue]

10. Hear, hear!

Kerry is in control, Bush is flailing.
Kerry just pulled the rug out of Bush's latest McCain pander.

[NV1962]

11. w00t!

^5 & l0lz!!!

da b0m u l33t!!!

u r p0wnd!!!

(sorry, growing pains... ;) )

[oldsurfer53]

13. Kerry's staying on the High Road

This move will help keep him there and lend contrast to the difference between the two, IMO.

[kentuck]

14. Bingo! Again!

And welcome. Shhhh...but don't tell anybody.. :)

[WilliamPitt]

15. But but but...I *like* to panic...I *need* to panic

It gives definition to my world. I wish you wouldn't try so much to censor me.

[depakid]

16. Had this happened three weeks ago it might have been a victory

Unfortunately, the damage is now done, and Kerry's belated counter attack won't get 1/20th the airplay and buzz that the original generated.

We really do need to hire more media savvy people-

[K-W]

17. Kerry is not winning this battle right now.

Bush has NOT condemned the Swift Boat ads. Instead Bush has used the issue to cast Kerry as a flip flopper again, because he condemns some ads but wont be as courageous as Bush in condemning all outside ads. Meanwhile he has now put on the cloak of an election reformer with his crusade against outside ads in politics.

So far Kerry has gotten beaten soundly on this. The swift boat attacks continue to run and hurt him. And Bush has another issue to lie about and hurt Kerry.

How did Kerry win this?

[mzmolly]

21. Just watch ...

Bush and McCain talked today, the deal is in the works - but, it's under the table.

Kerry did the BEST he could with the shit he was handed.

Did you think Kerry would NOT look like a flip flopper if he told McCain (a personal friend, former Vietnam POW) to F-off, after asking Bush to have ads pulled because they're divisive?

Kerry did the right thing. And, if Bush doesn't hold up to his end of the *closet* bargain, Moveon could (pick up the McCain ad) and run it. In fact, I'll encourage it! ;)

[K-W]

25. Most of the damage is already done.

And I think it is pretty obvious Bush is never going to condemn the swift boat ads. Even if he did, the damage is done, Kerry's persona has been pretty scarred by it. Bush is going to condemn all 537's pretending that it is not only the same as condemning lies, but that he is going further than Kerry.

McCain will do what he ALWAYS does and after a minor huff support Bush 100%.

We lost this battle. Bush has come out looking like he has the high road and Kerry has come out looking petty. It looks like Kerry is trying to manipulate things while Bush is fighting for non-partisan reform.

This is obviously false, but that is how it looks from a distance and undecided voters only see things from the distance.

Kerry should have taken his lump, let the democrats discredit the swifties, and then waited till closer to the election to put his swift boat crew on tv to play up his heroism. He should have done the exact same thing as Bush in regards to the Moveon ad, he should have avoided condemning it. I dont care if McCain is his blood brother, im not going to lose this election because Kerry is a better friend to McCain than Bush. McCain has already abandoned Kerry anyway.

Kerry made a very slick move that imresses those of us who pay close attention. He got Bush and he got him good, but that doesnt matter a lick to voters. From the outside Bush has won, and if Kerry cant learn to play for the image from a distance he is going to lose these battles, he is going to lose the debates, and he is going to lose this election.

[mzmolly]

26. I totally disagree. This sounds like Faux news perspective KW?

I'm watching this thing play out in the media and the impression I get is Kerry that outed Bush's connections to this 527, he outed O'Neill as a liar, and Bush was in hiding yesterday. Further, he has Veterans like Bob Kerrey outraged, speaking about the fact that all Bush as to do is make ONE phone call to end this divisive smear.

[K-W]

30. Exactly, that is my point.

You need to face the fact that Fox News' spin is the conservative spin, and that spin is very effective and often works.

You have to look at the big picture. Kerry has won this battle in YOUR mind. But guess what, your mind doesnt matter, you were voting for Kerry already. The question is, how does this look to someone who doesnt watch cable news all day, someone who gets bits and pieces of information and just reads headlines.

Here is what they have gotten.
-Kerry's war record is questionable.
-The swift boat vets are questionable.
Result: Both lose face, but unfortunately the swifties dont care, thus they have done thier job.

That was the smear, and there was nothing Kerry could do about it. The next issue isnt Kerry making lemonade, it is Kerry trying to use this situation to launch an attack on Bush.

-Bush has some connection to the swifties, Bush wont condemn the swifties
-Bush condemns 527 ads
Result: Bush looks a little dirty, but not really any dirtier than he did before. Voters dont expect cleanliness from politics. Meanwhile Bush soundly trumps Kerry by the 527 maneuvre. From the outside it looks like Bush one upped Kerry. Kerry will only condemn one or two ads, Bush will condemn them all. Bush can now claim he is much more for electoral reform than Kerry and much more for cleaning up the campaign than Kerry, and Kerry is stuck, because he cant condemn all 527 ads, because then he loses his point on the swift boat vets and pissses off dems and discredits moveon.

Im sorry Mzmolly, this exchange has not gone well for Kerry, it just hasnt. Bush leaves having lost in the facts, but having won in the Rhetoric.

Now this is fine. It was Bush's offensive, Kerry was playing defense, you expect Bush to score some points. When Kerry is on the offensive he should score some points too. But charecterizing this as a victory for Kerry is simply looking with rose colored glasses.

Unfortunately for us, the spin that Fox News puts on things gets around to alot of voters. Whether it os true or not we shouldnt pretend it isnt effective. We shouldnt pretend that just because Kerry is right he has won the battle, you must know that isnt true.

Edit: and now Bush is doing even better by calling on McCain to help him ban 527's. CAnt you see that from a distance it looks like Bush has blown Kerry out of the water?

[mzmolly]

33. Kerry's campaign is responsible for the OUTING of Bush. Also even Bill

O'Reilly and Scarborough condemned these ads. Bush and his cronies have been exposed for their involvement in this SBV liar scandal.

Here are some more "actual" headlines for your consideration:

Smear by veterans may hurt Bush
Boston Globe ~ August 22, 2004

Swift boat skipper: Kerry critics wrong
Tribune editor breaks long silence on Kerry record; fought in disputed battle ~ Chicago Tribune

Ex-Swift boat skipper praises Kerry ~ The Boston Channel
These Charges Are False ... It's one thing for the presidential campaign to get nasty but quite another for it to engage in fabrication. ~ LA TIMES

Bush Campaign Aide Resigns Amid Controversy Over Campaign Ads ~ AP

Former POW Resigns From Bush Campaign ~ AP


Kerry didn't simply defend himself, he went on offense.

Also, Kerry's offense has only just begun, and the fact that Bush was in hiding yesterday, two of his staff have resigned and the media is talking about it, are only a few of the first small victories to be had here. The larger victory is coming, don't worry ... I won't say I told you so. :hi:

[K-W]

35. Unless hell froze over, Bush can easily dodge this.

I appreciate your optimism, I really do, but Kerry's attack didnt hurt Bush much at all. Bush has dodged much much worse.

The outcome of this whole ordeal is that Kerry's vietnam service is questionable and that Bush may have some connections to the discredited swift boat vets...

That is a trade that Bush would make in a second, that is a victory for Bush. He crippled something that Kerry had a major advantage on. Kerry's service was a huge problem for Bush and now Kerry is on the defensive over his service. Now Kerry's vietnam service is a national joke and voters will think there is reason to doubt his service.

[Democat]

37. Kerry took a serious hit - look at the new poll on Kerry's honesty

More people now think Kerry is a liar than Bush.

That is a direct result of the Swift Attack.

Anyone who thinks Kerry won the Swift issue is very optimistic.

[mzmolly]

40. I am optimisitc, but I'm also realistic and I realize that the poll number

s you mention reflect the issue before Kerry went on offense.

[mzmolly]

39. Well all have to wait and see. Current polls show the effect of the ads

future polls will show the effect of Kerry's offense. :hi:

[mbali]

44. This was a $250,000 ad buy in three states - Nevada, NM, Pennsylvania

Kerry got WAY more out of pulling the ad than he ever would have by running it. This was a fakeout and it worked beautifully.

[mondo joe]

55. Doesn't matter. The press is free and national.

It doesn't matter what the ads cost or where they played.

The Smearboat ads were not expensive or widely run - but the press on them was huge.

I'd be delighted to be proven wrong by a huge Kerry win.

But I know the last Dem who let the Repubs dictate the campaign was Gore, and the last Dem who slammed down every attack was Clinton.

[mbali]

57. Exactly - that's why Kerry didn't need to run the ad. He got plenty of

free national publicity for it anyway.

Kerry's not letting Republicans dictate the campaign. Like a martial arts expert, he's turning the Republicans' weight back onto them.

Clinton's strategy worked in in 1992 and 1996 because the attacks against him were very different than those against Kerry. Kerry would be a fool to "slam down" every attack against him as each one arises - if he did that, he'd be doing nothing but chasing after these attacks like a dog chases a ball his owner pretends to throw until he was so worn out, he couldn't accomplish a damned thing. THAT would be allowing the Republicans to dictate his campaign, something Kerry is too smart to do.

Instead, he lies in wait, letting the Republicans dig themselves in deeper and deeper. And then when they cannot possibly wiggle out of the situation, THEN he slams them down.

Think about it - what would you have had Kerry do when the Swift Boat liars first launched their attack? At that point, he could have done little more than shout back, "Did TOO!" And he could not have tied Bush to them back then since the connections were not fully established. By waiting, he allowed them to get their lies entrenched and their connections to Bush more and more clear. And now it's paying off.



Kerry is much more clever than you're giving him credit for.

[Jacobin]

20. About 30 of the last 54 years, and you?

Smears and slime work. Kerry didn't "win" shit. We are not out to convert the RW or those who already know they will vote for Kerry.

We are out to get the votes of 5 to 7% of the undecideds who probably watch 15 minutes of news a month and only see the 'gotcha' headline stuff or what people who are equally uninformed say around the water cooler.

Rove has done his smear very effectively. (Oh, I know, ignore the polls). Kerry's team as done a very nice defensive job of proving that the smears were lies. Very nice, but who in that 5 to 7% of uninformed voters will take the time to dig through and find that out? I venture to say very few.

Now, instead of firing back with TRUTHFUL slime and smears on Bush*s record which are completely ripe for the picking, he backs off on blasting Bush* because one of the people campaigning for Bush* (McCain) asks him to?

And now "mr. high road lordgodbush" is gonna save us all from the sleaze on tv (after he bumped his polls by smearing Kerry) by going to court to stop the 527? I know what I think about it and other Dems.I think its bullshit and a ploy.

I have a feeling that it will be well-received by those not closely watching what is going on (our target audience) as an attempt to stop all that "bad stuff" (which they secretly love and watch but which they pretend to find distasteful to demonstrate their good moral values to their friends)

Well, excuse the fuck out of me, but IMHO Kerry's ship is WAY off course and headed for the rocks.

[NV1962]

22. 2 comments

I think Kerry has a tad more experience in winning uphill election battles than you implicitly give him credit for.

I also think that 'the truth' is a flimsy weapon to sway "5 to 7% of the undecideds who probably watch 15 minutes of news a month and only see the 'gotcha' headline stuff or what people who are equally uninformed say around the water cooler." They're any combination of ignorant, fools and knaves, who need more hard hitting stuff to get through their ignoramus skulls than "the truth" - if you think that's not true, look at how the SBVT maggots have widened the bracket of so-called 'undecideds' in spite of ample resources to verify "the truth."

[mzmolly]

23. He backs off blasting Bush? Where?

He pulled ONE ad at the request of John McCain, who in turn called Bush and had a *cough* conversation about the SwiftBoat ad - er uhm, I mean 527's. Kerry used a bargaining chip that could hurt Bush before his convention. John McCain. And, if Bush doesn't get those ads pulled soon, then we have our own 527's to pick up the ad where Kerry left off.

I've been observing politics for about 25 years myself.

You've been in the Kerry's doomed camp for some time now, I'm not surprised your freaking out today Jacobin. :eyes:

Sure Rove's smear was effective, and Kerry did the best he could under the circumstances, let's watch and see what happens. Kerry is making lemonade out of lemons. And, he'll do what he has to. :hi:

[ArkDem]

27. I sure hope Kerry doesn't win anymore battles like this one or

he'll be at 42%.

[mzmolly]

34. Patience ...

Patience ...

FWIW, Fox News still shows Kerry ahead of Bush by 1%. :hi:

[Democat]

28. Kerry is not winning this, he is losing the battle

If McCain helps Bush get rid of 527 groups, that gets rid of the Democratic advantage and gives Bush an advantage by getting rid of our advantage.

Why would anyone think McCain is on our side at this point?

Kerry is getting his ass kicked right now and he fucked up by not fighting back right away.

I know it's hard to take when our side it taking a beating, but we need to face reality.

Negative ads work - they always have!

We can still win, but Kerry is not giving me a lot of confidence at this point.

[goodhue]

29. 527 groups are not going anywhere!

[K-W]

31. He didnt screw up, he got hit by a well designed offensive

and his counterattack wasnt too effective, but he really didnt have too many other options. You are being just as unfair as those overly praising Kerry. We cant crucify Kerry everytime Bush scores a few points.

[Democat]

36. Kerry took two weeks to respond - that was a major mistake

Kerry had 30 years to prepare for this battle, but he let the Swift Liars attack him for two weeks in the media before mounting a counter-attack.

In those two weeks, Kerry's numbers took a hit. In fact, he only responded to them forcefully after the first polls came out showing damage. That is not strategy, that is reactionary.

Even Bill Clinton himself was on the Daily Show saying we needed to respond to every attack quickly and forcefully. Kerry did not do that!

Kerry had a chance to try to undermine these guys before their book came out, but he didn't react for some reason.

Giving them two weeks to attack without a serious response was a major tactical error. It doesn't mean that he can't recover, but it was a mistake.

Hopefully Kerry learned a lesson and he'll fight a better campaing from here on out. The lying Swift ads hurt him, but he's still ahead in most polls.

[K-W]

38. No that isnt it at all.

Kerry cant attack the swift boat vets. He can really only attack Bush and his administration. He would be playing into the conservatives hands if he got sucked into a fight with the swift boat vets. Responding to the swift boat ad would have been a huge mistake for Kerry. Kerry does need to respond immediately to attacks by Bush, not to attacks by disreputable outside groups.

Kerry never attacked the swift boat vets, he attacked Bush. He waited until he had some evidence of a connection to Bush and waited for McCain to ask Bush to condemn it, and waited for Bush to refuse to condemn it and he waited till he could condemn the Moveon ad... then he attacked Bush for not condemning the ad and for being involved in the ad.

Kerry didnt have a chance to undermine him. They were immediately undermined, the point is the verocity of thier attacks isnt the issue, its that the attacks were made, and Kerry being the one to refute them wouldnt have done anything to stop them, it would have only given them more credence.

Kerry played the attacks perfectly right. He let others discredit them, and stayed out of it. His counterattack is where he made the mistake, it wasnt a very effective counterattack and Bush one upped him effectively with the 527 maneuvre.

[mzmolly]

41. See even pessimists disagree.

:P

[Democat]

43. That's why we're Democrats

If we agreed on everything, we wouldn't be Democrats. :)

The only thing we all agree on is that Bush has to go.

[mzmolly]

45. Reminds me of that old saying "I'm not a member of any organized political

party ~ I'm a Democrat" ;)

[ArkDem]

47. That was Will Rogers.

[mondo joe]

42. Time for the Kerry Campaign to Grow Up

We don't need another pushover candidate.

Kerry needs to look at the last SUCCESSFUL democratic candidate, Bill Clinton, and start smacking Bush back down.

[mbali]

46. Picking battles and fighting strategically is NOT being a pushover

Kerry is a smart, disciplined and extremely savvy candidate. I think one of the reasons so many people are frustrated with him is that we're not used to having a candidate who is so good at this sort of thing (Clinton's response strategy was very different because the nature of the attacks were different than those against Kerry).

While it may be emotionally satisfying on a short-term basis for a candidate to throw everything he has at every hit that comes his way, it's neither smart nor effective. The smarter move is to use cunning and patience, with a long-term strategy and vision.

Kerry didn't get where he is by being stupid or clueless or a pushover. He knows what he's doing.

[depakid]

48. long-term strategy and vision?

I have news- there are only 67 day left 'til November 2d, and a lot of people will be voting absentee (including the entire state of Oregon) which means they'll begin voting in about 7 weeks!

If the Kerry camp has any plan at all to go on the offensive and hold Bush accountible for his indefensible record- and if they want their memes to stick- they have no time left to waste.

[mzmolly]

49. Check the headlines in the past couple days.

Smear by veterans may hurt Bush
Boston Globe ~ August 22, 2004

Swift boat skipper: Kerry critics wrong
Tribune editor breaks long silence on Kerry record; fought in disputed battle ~ Chicago Tribune

Ex-Swift boat skipper praises Kerry ~ The Boston Channel
These Charges Are False ... It's one thing for the presidential campaign to get nasty but quite another for it to engage in fabrication. ~ LA TIMES

Bush Campaign Aide Resigns Amid Controversy Over Campaign Ads ~ AP

Former POW Resigns From Bush Campaign ~ AP

Kerry is on offense. Remember Max Cleland yesterday?

[depakid]

51. Actually, he's counter punching- which is good

and necessary, if overdue. But he needs to go on the offensive against Bush. This man has compiled by far the worst record of any man ever to reside in the White house, and it's sheer folly not to just hammer him with it.

The American people, particularly the voters who are "undecided" are typically very ignorant about public policy. They don't know what Bushco has done. They don't know the extent of his duplicity and mendacity. The Kerry campaign needs to tear down the image that the media has built about Bush- with simple, hard hitting facts.

It's high time that people who are considering voting for Bush got a reality check.

[mbali]

52. That doesn't mean they need to jump on every accusation on the same day

it's made. While it may make you feel good, it's a stupid strategy. There's nothing wrong with waiting a few days or even a week or two if doing so will have better results in the long-run.

The Bushies are TRYING to wear Kerry out by throwing all of this crap at him in hopes that he'll jump on everything they toss. Their intention all along has been to spend the weeks between the Democratic Convention and theirs trying to psyche Kerry into going out on a limb, fighting shadows and spending his finite $75 million campaign fund.

But he's smarter than they think he is and he's definitely smarter than they are. He hasn't fallen for the okie doke. Instead, he is thinking before he acts, moving strategically and not shooting from The Bush folks have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at Kerry and he's still standing and the race is still a dead heat. And Bush looks petty, mean and cowardly, McCain has been neutralized and the Republicans have spent their ammunition on this issue.

If Kerry had come back hard at Bush early in the smear campaign, before the SBV's lies had congealed, Bush could have back pedaled and distanced himself and played the innocent, as he usually does. Moreover, the liars could have readjusted themselves. They would have done just as much damage to Kerry as they have done, but there would have been few consequences.

But Kerry played it smart - he laid in wait while they dug themselves deeper and deeper and deeper into the tarpit they made for themselves. Now Bush cannot separate himself from these liars - after all, Kerry and McCain gave him every opportunity to do so and now it's too late. They're sticking to him like a tarbaby and he cannot extricate himself at this late date. He's also created a perfect opportunity for others (not him, since he can't be the one to do it) to throw Bush's pathetic military record in his face.

Kerry didn't get out of Vietnam in one piece - covered with medals, no less - by being stupid, weak or too slow on the uptake.

[depakid]

53. The poll numbers (particularly the specific questions)

tend to disprove your rationalizations. Kerry's 3 week delay in response time not only allowed the Republicans to control the agenda (and take away some of the angst their supporters have for voting for awol over a war hero) but (according to some numbers I just heard on AAR) it caused Kerry's a significant target audience (the undecideds and crossovers) to begin to question his honesty.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the target audience for these ads- and for Kerry's campaign, is not a sophisticated bunch, but they could have been innoculated from a lot of the fallout through a technique lawyers know as pulling the teeth of the tiger- which essentially works like this:

If you know an attack or a smear is coming, you put your version of what it is out there before your opponent can whack your client over the head with it. What that does is lessen the impact and eliminate the shock value of the charges.

The campaign knew this was coming, and could easily have prepared at the very least a concurrent response- but chose to take the hit instead, with predictable results.

[mondo joe]

54. I agree. BUT...

I agree, picking battles and fighting strategically is not being a pushover.

But I'm not seeing a lot of that from the Kerry campaign.

Instead what I'm seeing is a lot of delay and waiting for things to go away as the instead GROW.

You say Kerry didn't get where he is by being stupid or clueless or a pushover.

Well neither did Karl Rove or Dick Cheney.

[no name no slogan]

50. My biggest fear

...is that, because of McCain's involvement, it will look like we are so unsure of our own abilities that we had to get a freaking REPUBLICAN to say that our guy is alright.

So sure, it's a victory, but it also shows that for some reason, Democrats STILL need Republicans to define themselves. In other words, reacting to the right-wing agenda, instead of drowning out theirs with our much superior agenda.

I dunno. I really wish that the Democrats would stop relying on "maverick" Republicans to prove our worth to the rest of the country. Screw John McCain's opinion. Why the hell should we (as Democrats) care about what an arch-conservative pro-war Republican hawk says about our candidate? Are we still really THAT insecure about our candidate and platform this year?

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

56. Kerry Should Rent THE UNTOUCHABLES. "That's How You Get Capone"

"You wanna know how you do it? Here's how, they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send on of his to the morgue! That's the Chicago way, and that's how you get Capone! Now do you want to do that? Are you ready to do that?"