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ARRGGHHHH? How do we/Kerry team counter the flip/flop canard?

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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:04 PM
Original message
ARRGGHHHH? How do we/Kerry team counter the flip/flop canard?
I'm getting sick of quotes like these:
--------------------------------------
The Bush campaign did not directly respond to the new challenge. "During the next few weeks, John Kerry should take the time to finish the debates with himself," said Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt.

"This election presents a clear choice to the American people between a president who is moving America forward and a senator who has taken every side of almost every issue."
----------------------------------------


We know it's not the truth per se. Just as we KNOW that Bush has had more flips and flops than the USA Gymnastics and Diving teams throughout his short and storied career as an executive who does nothing but pander to corporate interests.

HELP:we gotta turn this thing around.
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ConservativeDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. If you want to write a LTE, think about sending something like this:
"So the Bush campaign says Kerry is both the most consistently liberal Senator, and a flip-flopper at the same time? Come on GOP! Get your lies straight."

- C.D.

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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Keep Bush List Handy for E-mailing
I found a list of Bush flip-flops on the web. I keep it handy for e-mailing whenever I get one of those "clever" Kerry e-mails... Those showing him as Flipper or standing in front of a Waffle House. 0He just flip flopped today on global warming. He's had many diverse views on that subject.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
3. Give me an example and tell me why it is a flip-flop ?
That should shut up about 99% of them....
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liveoaktx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. Take out an ad in your local paper-topic: Bush Flip Flops
Or topic about people changing their minds when new facts present themselves instead of staying the wrong course. If you take out an ad, you can be sure it will be seen and published, as opposed to a LTTE
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oldsurfer53 Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. We Don't Have Single Issue Legislation
Everybody complains about pork being added to legislation but when A Senator decides that that pork should be added to a bill a responsible Senator will look at the validity of such projects and adjust his vote accordingly.

Remind those who don't understand the legislative process that * himself threatened to veto the 86B Iraq bill if it was changed to force repayment of about 20%in the form of loan guarantees.

I am convinced that the real reason is that with a loan guarantee there would have to have been an accounting of where those funds went and accountability is one virtue that * has never had.
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. The whole suggestion that Kerry flip flops is absurd
Kerry gave the answer a few days ago, but indirectly. A president who stubbornly sticks to a particular course regardless of the situation is a moron.


Kerry pointed out that a good president doesnt stay the course when the course that they have taken has proven dead wrong.

Everything that is happening in Iraq is a good example. Would it be appropriate for the president to bankrupt the country if the point is reached where Iraq is simply proven to be a lost cause, the Iraqis in greater and greater numbers oppose our presence, and greater and greater numbers of American Soldiers die in Iraq.

In the mind of George W. Bush, staying the course whetther the course is one that is totally wrong, and een perhaps evl, is more of an indication of presidential abilities than a president who changes their stance on the issu as the situation demands

He was discussing going to war in Iraq, and the way the president went to war, based on getting support by giving false information.


all of Kerry's supposed flip flops are all events when he held a certain stance on an issue, or a piece of legislation, and then events regarding the issue changed, or there weew changes to the legislation at hand that then made the legislation acceptable to him.

But democrats as well as REpublican have created this problem for Kerry, by the treatment of his signning of the legislation that gave the president authority to use force in Iraq if eventually the situation called for it. There is a world of differnece between giving authority to use force if all other alternatives have failed and have been proven to have failed, and giving authorization to use force at the drop of a hat. The resolution passed clearly allowed use of force under described circumstances, and these required that certain things had to happen for force to be used. Many Democrats treated the act as a blank check and instant authorization. WHich it wasnt, but once both Democrats and Republicans created this impression, the media took off with it, and the impression that the act was instant authorization to go to war, gave Bush the wiggle room he needed to do so, and all criticism would be much less effective, as the beleive created in the public eye made the decisions made by people like Kerry and Edwards seem inconsistant, when in fact, they were giving the president authorization only if other methods failed.

Kerry opposed the immediate invasion of Iraq during the Gulf War, and wanted to give other methods a few more months to see if peaceful methods through the United Nations would be effective, as the las resolution that was passed in the U.N. had only been passed a few months earlier. Later, as the situation changed, Kerry's thoughts about how Saddam should be handled changed, as Hussein began violating every resolution he himself agreedf to at the end of the Gulf War,, as well as the Brutal actions he took against the groups that tried rebelling against Husseins regime after the Gulf War ended.

As the situation changes, one's opinions and ideas on how to deal with the situation must change.

Look at the Bush Administration. Regardless of all evidence that there was absolutely no connection between Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein, the Bush Administration continues to state, and even worse, behave as if a connection existed.

This belief itself is the justification for the War in Iraq, leaving the elements that were more dangerous to U.S. security still free to plan and perhaps act, while almost a quater of a trillion dollars has been spent going after Saddams regime, which posed no immediate threat to the U.S., if it posed any at all. The fact that we have a president who will not change course in the light of evidence, is to my mind, a far greater danger than one who does change their mind as it is necessary.

But democrats who allow the image that changing one's position if needed is somehow inappropriate have already given Bush all the ammunition he needs to turn necessary change into flip-flop, which is something Kerry has actually neve done. Kerry has changed his mind on legislation, but only after others have changed the legislation to the degree that came closer to meeting Kerry's own original position on the legislation

For example, all of the defense spending Kerry was supposed to have voted against only happened as a result of Kery opposing a lot of un-necessary pork in the original bills, but if that was removed, Kerry then voted for the systems.

Kerry in fact sets aa certain line regarding legislation, and is willling to be flexible, but will not change his stance on certain issues. particularly when it comes to allowing large corporations to raid the cookie jar for things totally unrelated to the programs that the legislation is related to.

This is pretty much the only way to clear Kerry of the "flip flop" accusations. However, this creates another problem for Kerry, as the American Public does not like long explanations for things, and wants everything explained in 25 words or less. As Kery said at the convention, there are just some things that cant be explained that simply.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. okay...I agree with what you are saying. how do we advertise it?
besides letters to the editor or personal conversations..which I think are good starts..how do we make the lazy media work for OUR SIDE better?
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. That is the problem entirely
The media KNOWS that the newswatchiig public in the United Staes is not interested in deep or nuanced explnations of anything.

THis is the differnce between say the Ameican Voter and the Voter in lets say, Germany. I can turn on Deutsche Welle on the shortwave radio, and get an news program that goes in depth into what is happening in the Sudan explaiing the history of the whole thing and what is up currently in a news program that lasts a halpf an hour. You are lucky to get a 10 second blurb on it on American TV.

The nearest thing that comes to this is the Nighly News on PBS, which takes two or three of the days current events and covers them all over an hour.

That is really the only venue in the U.S. for discussing such issues. It might be a good idea for the Kerry people to approach NcNeil, or perhaps Bill Moyers "Now" to deal with how Kery's iomage as a flip flopper is incorrect for these reasons.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. It's not a flipflop to say the president didn't honestly implement
the resolution you voted for.

It's not a flipflop to say the president dishonestly underfunded the NCLB bill you voted for.

It's not a flipflop to say the Patriot Act should be re-examined to prevent the curtailing of civil rights.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. You don't defend against a charge like that.
You counter attack by pointing out Bush is dangerously stubborn and has a simplistic world view that is inadequate to meet the demands of a complex world. Bush's inability to understand the thinking of other people has resulted in an America that is cut off from its allies to a degree that hasn't been seen since FDR led us out of the darkness of isolationism. Bush seems to have one prescription for world affairs: bluster and war. Bush has only one prescription for the economy: cut taxes for the wealthy.

Bush brags that he is unchanged by four years in the most powerful position in the world. What? I worked as a retail clerk at a convenience store for one summer, and that opened my eyes to a lot of things, but Bush hasn't learned anything new in 4 years acting as president of the United States?

The Republicans are going to do some of this work for us by trying to cast Bush as a common man, a guy who leads "by his guts." I say this is way too uncommon a period to trust to someone as simpleminded and stubborn as Bush. He's had four years to learn new things, and brags that he hasn't. In that four years, we've lost 1.8 million jobs, and a few hundred million dollars (the cost climbs every day) in the war on Iraq, and the truly inexcusable loss, 1,000 American lives. But Bush stubbornly claims everything he did was right, that he'd do it again. Would anyone want four more years like the past four? Because that's essentially what Bush's simple mind promises.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. How about this:
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 05:16 PM by MGKrebs
The number of Americans living in poverty increased by 1.3 million last year, while the ranks of the uninsured swelled by 1.4 million, the Census Bureau reported Thursday. It was the third straight annual increase for both categories

edited because I didn't realize how BIG that was gonna be!
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. Only kerry can do that
by taking firm stands.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Most of us have moved on.
:boring:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, having principles are so boring!
NT!

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Complaining at this stage is, yes.
A lot of us have better things to do. You could almost say it's unprincipled to whine when you could be doing something that actually improves things.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. It is only too late
if kerry chooses not to listen to the people about issues that are of most import.

Btw, I am doing lots of "somethings" that will hopefully improve my county, state and Congress; from fundraisers to web production to forums for candidates.

This coming week I will be meeting w/my congressman, Pete :loveya: DeFazio.

P.S. I do not whine.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Simple
Craft an ad that shows Bush's multiple reversals on serious issues using his own words and video. Ask: Who's the flip flopper?

This should have been done a long, long time ago.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Use Dean's discussion
As a doctor--if you take a course of action, and find out it does not work--you are now armed with new facts-- you apply those facts to address the issue.

It's quite simple--

New information, etc. can demand a new stance on a position.

Anyone who argues against that is pathetically and dangerously stupid.

i.e. You put your hand on a stove you think is off. It's not, rather it's blazingly hot. Do you move your hand? No--you now have more information and you remove your hand.

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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. Here: "Flip-flopped on what?"
Chances are you won't get much of an answer.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. Or "Republicans aren't smart enough to understand Kerry's positions."
"There's no flip-flop if you're smart enough to comprehend."
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. thanks a lot folks. there are some great suggestions
I just hope we can saturate local and national media with some basic understanding of "changing your mind" does not equal flip-flopping. I'm sure it is funny to some. Charlie Brown was wishy-washy. Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof kept saying, "On the other hand..."

There are charicatures and then there is really thoughtful reasoning on a matter and decisions that may change based on changing situations or on more facts gleaned.

I will definitely use your suggestions.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. Clinton touched on it with his infamous *shovel* remark at the Harkin
Steak Fry, anyone remember it exactly?

I think we need to start using such a meme. :hi:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. point out how often this attack is used
it's a generic attack, like tax cuts and missed votes. Bush is not actually saying anything about Kerry, he's just applying a formula.

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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
22. Point out * is the REAL filip-flopper: Against the 9-11 commission for
YEARS, then a false embrace; against extending the commission's life, then allowed it; against Condi testifying, then gave her permission; against Lieberman's idea of a DHS, then claimed credit for it; advocated full NCLB funding, then made it an unfunded testing mandate by stripping off $27 billion; and on and on. Kerry himself made each of these points in answering a recent audience question about the "Kerry flip-flop" big lie.

The "Kerry flip-flops" alleged by the WH are straight-up LIES about his Iraq authorization vote, his vote against Iraq funding without dedicated revenue increases;
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. excellent points. The Steel Tarriffs are a big one too. SOOO clear
that Bush is the biggest whore this side of the Mustang Ranch. He will go to any position as long as you pay enough.
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ogsball Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
26. You might point out . . .
that anything the Republicans accuse Kerry of they either have done or will do. It's like the kid in the class that throws and eraser at the teacher then turns to the kid next to him and says "stop throwing erasers."

Finding examples are easy.

Just plain weird.
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