Kerry saw Swift Boat Problem way back!

[Leilani]

FOX News just showed part of an interview with the Admiral who is involved in SBVs.

He said Kerry called him March 16 to try & work something out...to make peace. The admiral refused.

A Kerry spokesman was on & confirmed this story.

I thought the Swift Boat Controversy was a recent development. But this goes way back.

[Doosh]

1. kerry saw it way back, like 30 years ago

[Democat]

2. Then why wasn't Kerry ready to respond for two weeks after the ads aired?

There is no excuse for Kerry's campaign giving the Swift Liars two weeks of coverage without a strong response.

They knew who was involved, they knew about the connections to the Bush campaign, and yet they let the Swift Liars attack him for two weeks without mounting a counter attack.

Kerry waited and then reacted to polls showing him taking a hit, rather than going on the attack as soon as the attacks started.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Who says they weren't ready?

They didn't respond immediately -- you can speculate why, but you don't know why.

Perhaps they wanted to draw it out so the counterattack would pack more punch. Perhaps they wanted to see their internal polling so they could plan the counterattack more effectively. Perhaps they wanted to wait till the media started destroying the smearers credibility. Or, perhaps John Kerry, despite the fact that he hasn't lost an election in 30 years, is totally inept at running a campaign.

[Julien Sorel]

30. No, no, no.

The only possible reason is that Kerry is weak and foolish. It's what some of these people console themselves with, and should Kerry not beat Bush, you will hear it for the rest of the time you follow politics.

There are two kinds of politicians: tough guys, like Bush, and wimps, like Dukakis. Nothing in between. Bush is stupid, yet everyone should campaign exactly like he does. Kerry is controlled by consultants; Bush, on the other hand, has no handlers and follows his instincts. Notice that again: Kerry is smart, and most everyone would agree to that, and I don't think too many people would argue that Bush is the sharpest needle in the pincushion. Yet these people have swallowed the notion that Bush somehow follows his own instincts in running his campaign! If it makes sense to you, explain it to me some time.

For some of these people, I strongly suspect their hatred of Bush is only a thin veneer that covers a much deeper admiration for him, kind of like the dog that loves the master who beats him.

[StopTheMorans]

35. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA!!!!!!!!

:yourock:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

43. It was an most excellent post! eom

[rocktivity]

31. In this age of weblogs and 24/7 news channels, it was a dumb gamble

and Kerry has a slip in the polls to show for it. Though he is now riding the wave of vindication, the delay reinforced the Bush camp's accusation that Kerry is vauge and indecisive, and I fear that he has alienated some swing voters permanently.

Kerry should have issued a statement the minute the Smear-Boaters made their debut, then let his response team handle the rest. Think of how much prettier he'd be sitting if he had said something like, "This is obviously a politically-orchestrated attempt to divert attention from Mr. Bush's miltary record" or "Business as usual--the same thing happened to McCain and Cleland four years ago."

:headbang:
rocknation

[John_H]

41. If your first two perhapses are true then perhaps your third one is true.

But I doubt any of them are true. Here's my perhaps, whichis perhaps something a little more accurate than a perhaps: That although some within the campaign who wanted to hit back immediately and viciously, they knew that some of the operations needed to mount an immediate and effective response were not up to snuff. Perhaps.

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. Kerry let it fester on purpose

In the end, it will hurt Bu$h a lot more than it has hurt Kerry, if he plays his cards right.

Patience, grasshopper.

[snyder]

8. Kerry Was Caught Napping

When, oh when, will the Democratic Party realize that you don't sit there and "take the high road" when the other side is sliming you? Is Kerry going to take two weeks to respond to every false charge the Bush people make? Come on, Kerry, get on the stick would you?

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. You wait until you can nail them really good

and then you slam them.

Kerry now has solid evidence in his hands, connecting the Bush Campaign to the Swift Boat Vets. I'm talking written contracts, not just he said, she said stuff.

You ain't seen nothing yet.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

21. Bullshit.

[CityDem]

22. The SBV's kicked Kerry right in the balls

And it took him 2 weeks to gain his senses and fight back. I am afraid it may be too little too late. He should have kicked the Bush camp in the balls at the very beginning.

[Southern Patriot]

26. According to press reports, Kerry's appearance at the

VFW was the turning point.

I think that his tin-ear staff were ready to let it fester but Kerry was personally affronted at his reception. You could see it in his face when he got off the plane in Boston.

He finally got the message and returned to Boston where he reportedly kept his staff awake all night hammering out a rebuttal strategy.

[lancdem]

23. He did that on purpose

that's his MO.

[henslee]

36. Take this pebble from my hand. Kerry has plenty of kungfu masters

who are guiding him, no doubt, behind the scene. Masters who can share first hand knowledge of tangling with the force....Big Dog, the lovable Bore, the Screamer and even Mad Max Cleland. Damn, there oughtta be a Marvel comic.

[Kahuna]

12. I'm hearing they didn't expect the media to pick it up and run

with it. So you're right. There is no excuse...... Why in the world would they not expect the HEATHERS media to give this big airtime??? :eyes:

[LTR]

16. Rope-a-dope

Yes, there is always a method to the madness.

It seems there is some Kerry camp strategy in play. This might just work in his favor eventually.

[Southern Patriot]

25. Precisely.

Had the Kerry Campaign been on the ball then they would have had started debunking claims immediately; pushing back with TV talking head rebuttals; and, most effectively, infiltrated an operative into the organization for inside dirt.

I think that it's pretty obvious that neither Kerry nor his advisers recognized the kind of traction that the SBVT book and claims were going to achieve. My guess is that neither of them really understood the depth of alienation and bitterness that Kerry's anti-war activities created among vets--- especially his former SB comrades.

If Kerry wins I think that one of the greatest endeavors Kerry could undertake to distinguish his uniting administration from the devisive Bush era would be to have a private fence-mending session with the SBVT. Make it a weekend at Camp David with NO press reports.

I guarantee that Kerry will win over some of the vets and the others will at least respect the POTUS enough not to slag him anymore.

[blm]

3. The admiral was mad because of the way he came out in Brinkley's book.

Brinkley is a historian. He can't sugarcoat what he learns. Vietnam was a failure of leadership in many ways, on the ground and in DC. The Admiral made decisions that cost too many lives.

[Leilani]

4. I have not read Brinkleys book

& I do not know what their differences are, but the Admiral was offerred access to Brinkley & Kerry s notes. He refused.

[A_Possum]

9. Is this Hoffman? He doesn't come off all that bad

in Tour of Duty. The main diss of him in the book isn't from KERRY, it's from others. Even smearvet Larry Thurlow is quoted as saying, "That man wanted in the worst way to be admiral. That's what (Operation) Sealords was about."

And then later, Brinkley says, "In an oral history recorded by the Naval Historical Foundation, for example, Kolbe (another swift vet) discussed the downsides of Operation Sealords, particularly working for Captain Roy Hoffman, whom he described as "an absolute mirror image" of Robert Duvall's brutish character in Apocalypse Now, who said he like the "sweet smell of napalm in the morning."

Other swift vets say similar things about Hoffman's gung-ho attitude.

If he's all pissy about how he comes off in TOUR OF DUTY, he ought to be blaming a lot of other guys. Or maybe himself.

[blm]

13. I know. Kerry was pretty respectful in the book. But he blames Kerry

for the way Brinkley did his job.

[rocktivity]

6. Well, now he looks like a jerk for not standing up for him

because by extension, he would have been standing up for the Navy, too. But he let his personal feelings get in the way, and I hope he gets accused of being down with the Smear-Voters now that Kerry's been vindicated. Aren't they supposed to respect the uniform if they can't respect the person wearing it?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Warpy]

10. this is their Willie Horton

They expected these ads to run without any counterpoint. They've had this stuff in the works for a year or more.

They've been surprised on that acocunt. Reopening old wounds isn't working nearly as well as the thugs thought it would.

Kerry really needs to sue Regenery for libel. Only then will it be clear he's taking this stuff very seriously and he is not tacitly admitting any of it is true.

[snyder]

11. Libel Suit A Waste

Kerry's a public figure. To get a libel judgment, Kerry would have to prove that the statements were false and that they were made with reckless disregard for the truth. This is a very difficult legal standard to meet. The defense would be that different people remember the same thing in different ways, and that the Swiftliars found enough people with different viewpoints to nullify a "reckless disregard" rap.

Libel suits by public figures are rare to begin with, and I can't remember the last time one has succeeded. Usually, when a public figure brings such a suit, it's by an actor or actress over a private issue, such as when Carol Burnett whacked The National Enquirer for falsely reporting that she was drunk in a restaurant. If I'm not mistaken, Burnett was able to argue that for purposes of the article she was a private figure and therefore the lower standard of negligence should apply.

I suppose Kerry could file the lawsuit against Regnery as a publicity stunt, but I really doubt that it would accomplish much other than to have the media clucking its tongues over how Kerry's skin is too thin. This one has to be played out in the court of public opinion.

[DemBones DemBones]

17. Dubya's people got "Fortunate Son" buried for a time.

And the author conveniently committed suicide too. Dubya is a lucky guy.

[rocktivity]

24. NONE of the smear-boaters witnessed what happened

Except maybe the guy who won a medal for being under the same enemy fire that he claimed Kerry WASN'T under. So I don't see how the "different people remember the same thing in different ways" defense would apply. I wonder if they interviewed people whose stories coorborated Kerry's and were rejected because they didn't fit. Maybe conspiracy to commit fraud would be a more appropriate charge.

:headbang:
rocknation

[snyder]

29. I'd Love to Be Wrong

but I think a libel suit is whistling past the graveyard, and more importantly I think the media would report it as such

[seabeyond]

14. remember people in march these people had conference

adn news channels covered it. they were there saying they had a list of over two hundred. we saw. we all knew. just forgotten. the news went onto there conference and cut them off and that was the last we heard from them. two day story most adn they were put in there place

it was there for us to see. kerry didnt think the story would fly. why should it. didnt last time. a bunch of lies.

[ItsMyParty]

15. Kerry got blown away by "content" not that they were going to attack

He knew (lord suggestions of it were flashed all over months ago)that they were going to go after him on his anti-war activities when he returned from 'Nam. He didn't know they were going to hit like they did (though common sense would have him think 'McCain' and more recently, "Max" and be prepared). They also made a very bad mistake that has been reported by several media that the campaign's advice was to "let it blow over" because they didn't think it would be big (how utterly dumb once they saw the ad). In fact they all fought about it until the wee hours of the morning before John went on the offensive over it. Instincts have to be sharper on this campaign.

[dogtag]

19. It seems to me

that the Kerry Campaign was anticipating an attack on his anti-war activities and wanted to diffuse that by featuring his meritorious service prior to his Senate testimony, medal throwing, etc. I think that was what the 'band of brothers' at the convention was all about. It probably never crossed their collective minds that BUSHCO would stoop that low. They never thought that his purple hearts, bronze star or silver star could be questioned much less lied about.

[Southern Patriot]

27. Then they're either ignorant or stupid or both.

In the SC primary "third parties" questioned whether McCain was "mentally fit" to be CinC because of his torture in 'Nam. In Georgia Cleland was linked to Osama.

If your staff doesn't know the opponent well enough to at least research their past tactics then they shouldn't be playing at this level.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. They were spreading rumors that he was a Manchurian Candidate

to be precise.

[Southern Patriot]

40. ...and push-polling to make sure that SC Repubs knew about...

McCain's "Black 'love child'".

Anybody who didn't realize that a campaign against a Bush means a bath in filth from "third parties" is obviously not paying attention.

[Lefty48197]

20. Kerry saw this coming, so he pulled Rassmann out of the river

to try and head off the inevitable attacks.

[Scorpious_Maximus]

28. The Plan

I think the Kerry Camp has played this correctly.


Tom Oliphant of The Boston Globe said it best;

"As happened to O'Neill in 1971, the best counter to him today is the serious press attention that his group fears most."


Let the media do the heavy lifting on this, as they are starting to do, with a little prodding by people like us!


The SwiftVets are self destructing. Ignore the polls. Election Day matters, not some poll 68 days out.


More from Oliphant


http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/08/22/smear_by_veterans_may_hurt_bush/

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Oh you mean like the did the heavy lifting for Dukakis

when he was being Hortenized. Like they did the heavy lifting reporting on Iraq. No way! Never trust the media to give a shit about truth.

[olddem43]

38. Oliphant is living in the past when he trusts the press

to get out the truth. He ignores the current reality of too many talking heads with too little real news to talk about.

[michigandem2]

39. watchign today there is NO objectivity

anymore...its all so opinionated and giving THEIR views...and I sit there and just judge every word they say as if "are they against Kerry or for them" and within 2 or 3 words you can basically tell who they are routing for...its really so aggrevating...the media is more Opinion than truth or fact and that is just sick and WRONG

[AspenRose]

42. The consequences of a dead Fairness Doctrine.

eom

[5by5]

45. Campaign strategy

In the end, the Bushies don't really care whether the Swift Boat Veterans are discredited or not because their objectives will have been achieved:
1) Keep Kerry off-message at a time when he needs to build a lead.
2) Innoculate Bush from an "October suprise" on his National Guard service.

The first point I think is obvious. Kerry relied too strongly on his Vietnam service coming out of the convention so he's vulnerable.

The second relies on the belief that there are skeletons in Bush's closet and they will come out, probably at the worst possible time--just like the old DWI. But with the Swifties stirring everything up now, no one will have any appetite for a rehash against Bush later.

Win-win for Bush. If Kerry doesn't respond effectively, Swifties come forward, one per news cycle, until the Nov 2. If the Democrats use their October surprise today, then Bush benefits by having it out early and he was still able to keep Kerry off-message for a month.

Regardless of the polls, Bush is clearly winning the campaign strategy battle right now.

There's still time to turn it around but so far I haven't seen any evidence of the skill.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Yes they knew. But they DIDN'T know Bush would help them directly

The scale of the attack took them by surprise because it was so well organized and funded. However, Bush is in it up to his eyeballs and payback wil be a bitch. And we know Bush was involved or else his lawyer wouldn't have quit.

[GOPAgainstGW]

37. THAT CLOWN ON FOX IS A PAID FOR WHORE FOR BUSH!!!!

We know that for a fact!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rob in B_more]

44. Shrub ha made it a poison pill for the convention.

NYT has him complementing his service, how can they go into the convention and rail about this with out being seen as being in bed with the SBliars, they would be flipflopers. They will probably surprise me with thei evilness.

[skip fox]

46. Do we have a link for this? I'm compiling a file on the SBVT

n/t