UPDATE: Bush's unauthorized ribbon

[Walt Starr]

I've been given information that the dates of the AFOUA from October 1, 1973 to September 31, 1975 for the units Bush was in came from AFP 900-2 AFPAM 36 2801V2. I have been given data from AFP 900-2 AFPAM 36 2801V1. The one I cited dates from in my last posting on this subject shows all unit awards given from April of 1970 until the Gulf War. This older version shows all awards given from the close of World War II until April of 1970. In this version of the document, The following awards to units apply:

147th Combat Support Sq AFOUA 1Feb65-31Mar66 DAFSO GB-326/66
111th FighterIntcp Sq AFOUA 1Feb65-31Mar66 DAFSO GB-326/66

Clearly, this award was given prior to Bush joining the unit, covering the period from February 1, 1965 until March 31, 1966.

Much has been made about the "temporary wearing" of unit awards. To date, the Air Force Personnel Center has maintained that the AFOUA is not authorized for temporary wear by Air Force personnel. I am still working and have sent requests to other Air Force research agencies to verify this stance.

The 147th Combat Support Squadron I listed above is an important factor here. Let's look again at the military biography:



The unit Bush was in while enlisted was covered under the above orders for the same time period as the Fighter Squadron he was assigned to as an officer. Let's look again at the photograph of Bush being pinned by his father:



He is NOT wearing the AFOUA in this photograph, yet all units he was associated with during the time frame of this photograph were covered under the AFOUA award during the February 1, 1965 to March 31, 1966 time frame. This would tend to suggest that temporary wearing of unit awards was not a custom or regulation at this time, however, the investigation in this area is still ongoing.

[David Zephyr]

1. Thanks for the Update, Walt (And A New Thread)

I'm following every word. :thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

4. I Am TRYING To Follow Every Word

but this is a bit nit-picky.... glad Walt's on the case!

:thumbsup:

[wurzel]

5. Where is Alabama?

Under the list of "assignments".

[Walt Starr]

6. Thank you

I need to get access to the regulations from the time period, but that's been a difficult thing. If I can lock down the claims to "temporary wearing", then I have a rock solid case.

[Doohickie]

31. Not necessarily

Consider these two things (I know, I sound like a broken record, but at this point I'm trying to help you and not nay-say you):

Is there any chance that, despite official regulation, there was any "custom" or "practice" in *'s unit that allowed for temporary wear? Are there any other examples of portrait photos from people who were in the unit at about the same time that would either support or refute whether Bush should reasonably have been wearing that ribbon? This is tough because if there was an "unofficial" temporary wearing of the ribbon, people will probably be hesitant to admit they were breaking regulations. And proving that no one else was photograhped that way is impossible since you can't prove a negative.

The second thing to consider is whether there is any heritage in the AF of following the Army reg concerning temporary wear. Remember, the AF was "spun off" from the Army in 1948, and they probably followed Army regs for several years before releasing their own. I would guess that they would have released all their own regs in 20 years, but it may be worth looking into.

[Walt Starr]

67. If Temporary wearing was either "custom" or regulation

Then Bush should have been wearing the AFOUA in the photograph of him getting pinned by his father.

He was in the 147th FIG while enlisted before his commission.

The theories of temporary wearing and custom simply don't hold water.

BTW, "broken record" is putting it mildly. "Wildly panicked" seems more apt.

[acmavm]

2. This is great. Prove that pResident Unelected wore a ribbon he didn't

have any right to wear and pray that someone will have the guts to ask him about it.

[quaoar]

3. Walt, a suggestion

Why not call the White House press office and ask them to comment on this?

[American liberal]

7. my sentiments exactly,...

which I posted almost simultaneously on another Bush medal thread.

But what I'm REALLY dying to know... WHO INTERVIEWED YOU LAST NIGHT, WALT?! Enquiring minds want to know... at least a hint?!
PLEASE???! :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[grasswire]

9. not important right now

Why should lurkers get a heads up on this?

All will come out in due time.

[American liberal]

13. will it?

Is somebody planning on covering it? If so, what's the harm in posting who it's going to be? but, you all are grownups and can make up your own minds. Best of luck.
Peace,
AL

[Walt Starr]

22. There are people following up on everything I'm presenting

Give it time.

[American liberal]

32. that's awesome, Walt!

I know I'm a veritable newcomer to this site, but I've been following the work you've done on this topic closely and want to thank you for furthering the causes of truth and justice. Truly. And I certainly wouldn't want to suggest or do anything that would jeopardize your work.

It's just the little kid in me wants to know NOW! :bounce: I hate secrets (hence my huge dislike for the current admin.) :), and you and grasswire piqued my interest about who interviewed you last night. On the off chance your story's not picked up by the mainstream, will you still let us know who interviewed you?

Same with strategic_dem: will his identity (he was called a he by either William Pitt or Skinner before you guys started referring to him as he/she) really be revealed after the election as was promised? I'm curious to know what public figures and journalists are using this site.

Anyways, thanks again for your good work. I look forward to seeing how this develops.

Peace,
AL

[volosong]

27. No Don't Leak it to the White House

They will do there damndest to see that no newspaper or news service does anything with it.

It must be lobbed from the news source at the White House

[EST]

8. With bated breath...

Am still holding my salute to you, sir!

[speedoo]

10. Where's Alabama.. good question!!

According to the military biography you posted, Walt, dumbya was never attached to any Alabama unit!

Are we missing something here?

[Jane Austin]

12. Do a search for Alabama Scam

and see if you don't turn up a DU thread from yesterday that talks about that.

[speedoo]

19. Tried that.

But I'm a newbie, and not yet a donor, so I can't use search. Can you post a link?

[Jane Austin]

40. Here ya go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x679234

[speedoo]

45. Thanks, very much.

Too late to read tonite, but I've bookmarked the article.

[DemoTex]

41. He never showed up ...

I talked with Col Turnipseed in September 1972 about an opening in the Alabama Guard unit in Montgomery. I had just gotten off active duty. They had a new guy coming in TDY that would take the slot I might have gotten. I was offered a slot flying a T-29 until I could train, to USAF standards, on the RF-4 Phantom aircraft. That guy was, in retrospect, George Bu$h. Stole my slot, never showed up.

[Kimber Scott]

11. I hate to rain on the parade, but being ex-military

I can see being assigned to a new unit, and in the Guard, or Reserves, especially, (I served in the Regular Army, US Army Reserves and the AZ National Guard), I can see how someone, upon his arrival, maybe not completely in the know - (part-time soldiering gets a little confusing sometimes) - would say he could wear the unit ribbon. It really doesn't seem like that big a deal. If he were going to pump up the ribbons on his chest, it seems he would have picked something a little "sexier."

Not trying to defend Bushboy, or lessen the hard work of Mr. Starr, but this really doesn't seem that important. Of course, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen.

[Rose Siding]

14. I'd still love to see a WH press release explaining that

"Yes, the president was confused"

[Kimber Scott]

17. I agree. It would be embarrassing for Bush, but if people have realized

anything from all this "military history" stuff, it should be the records are confusing, incomplete and many, many times wrong. A lot of people, when they are discharged from the military will find errors on their DD214s and will take the time to get it corrected. Many others are so glad to get out of the service, they don't give a crap what the paper says, as long as it says "Honorable." As far as all the other records, most times service people never see them.

As for the ribbons, I've been in units where there have been arguments and confusion over what ribbons we were supposed to wear. I've also known guys who wore ribbons they knew they weren't authorized to wear, just to make themselves look better. They always picked things representing personal valor and such. I even knew of guys getting in trouble for wearing Vietnam decorations when they weren't old enough to have even been there! It's like pumping up a resume'. If you were going to do that, you'd, at least, put something really good on it, wouldn't you?

[KC21304]

15. Oh, but that one looks impressive to someone

who is just looking at a nice looking guy in a uniform. And he wasn't bad looking back then. And maybe that was the only one he thought he could get away with. His chest would have looked mighty bare without it.

[Walt Starr]

16. Just a couple of things

HE wasn't "new to the unit". The 111th FIS was a part of the 147th FIG. The 147th CSS was part of the 147th FIG. Both received the award as child units of the 147th FIG.

Same award covered both units. Bush was an enlisted man in the 147th CSS according to the record. Even though he went from the 147th CSS to the 111th FIS, he remained in the 147th FIG.

The confusion excuse would mean that he should have been confused at the same time his father pinned the lieutenant bars on his shoulder.

[Kimber Scott]

18. I'm not going to argue this one out. I really don't care and I hope

you're right - i.e. he knew he was wrong when he wore it and you can prove it. He's the perfect personality to have done something like that. "John Wayne." I've known enough of them. I'm just wondering why, if he was going to lie, he didn't lie better?

[Walt Starr]

20. I'm figuring he saw other officers who were in the unit in '66

Decided that since they were wearing a unit ribbon he could too. Then put the thing on for the photo.

It's just the sort of arrogance he demonstrates nearly every day.

[Kimber Scott]

21. You're probably right, but I'll put my money on ignorance this time.

And I know it's no excuse, a "good" officer would have done his research. But, you're probably right. He saw them wearing it, maybe even asked what it was, "a unit citation," and bought one, too.

Like I said earlier in this thread. This could be very embarrassing for Bush and the work you have put into it could well pay off, but I really don't think it's the smoking gun a lot of people here are hoping for.

[Walt Starr]

24. Embarassing? Yes.

That's the whole point now, isn't it?

I'm not a professional investigative journalist looking into Israeli spies in the Pentagon affecting high level foreign policy as it relates to the Middle East and helping to push the United States into an unjustified war.

I'm just a lowly guy in Chicagoland who saw discrepencies and decided to put them out there. If anything, it's my one knife cut out of the thousands it will take to change things.

[Kimber Scott]

35. Well then, let's hope it's the knife-cut to break the bastard's back!

nt

[AirAmFan]

59. Right--push this as far as you can. Why should DUers cut * ANY slack?

Look at the BIG LIES * is telling about KERRY's medals! What Walt found seems to be LEGITIMATE proof of over-reaching for military distinction, unlike the lies about Kerry the WH has been maxing out for WEEKS. Let the American people decide how significant this is.

Just ask yourself, what would Karl Rove do if the picture were of John Kerry rather than George W. Bush?

[Toots]

38. I think I have to go along with that thought process.

I can easily see how a mistake could be made. He looks around and sees most guys in the unit wearing the ribbon and he asks someone what it is and is told it's the Unit's citation. He could naturally figure it was for everyone in the unit especially knowing what a knowledgeable and curious fellow he is. It could be a bit embarrassing though and worth all the follow up. But like you I also could be way underestimating the value of this find.

[Southern Patriot]

47. It's too "inside baseball."

The SVBT are going after Kerry because of what he did AFTER the war. If he hadn't joined the anti-war movement and made so many major statements then they wouldn't hate him so much.

Don't get your hopes too high. I think that most civilians will see it as a picayune tempest in a teapot while pro-Bush military types won't consider the situation anywhere near as grave as Kerry's anti-war activities.

I don't believe that there's going to be a "silver bullet" to blow Bush away. I suspect that we'll all be up late on election night.

[KBlagburn]

48. Being Ex Air Force I Know For A Fact

That even with newbies to the unit, there are those who would know.
The 1st Sgt, the commander. Even in our unit the lowest ranking knew what ribbons/medals they were/were not authorized to wear. It isnt that hard to figure out. As a matter of fact, when I arrived at my first unit, someone had told me that since the unit had previously been awarded the AFAUA that I was authorized to wear it while a member of the unit. I had enough since to check it out my self and found out that it wasnt true. Ignorance is no excuse.

[Walt Starr]

53. Tell me, would, say, a Staff Sergeant take a bit of glee in telling a

butterbar that he HAD to wear it?

I've known e-5's and above who took great joy in doing everything possible to make butterbars look bad.

[ezekiel333]

49. Article 134

Article 134 is a general provision that covers a wide range of crimes, including wearing unauthorized insignia, medals and badges.

Example

<http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=0-292925-2482249.php>

From Manual For Courts-Martial
Paragraph 113. Article 134—(Wearing unauthorized
insignia, decoration, badge, ribbon, device,
or lapel button)
a. Text. See paragraph 60.
b. Elements.
(1) That the accused wore a certain insignia, decoration,
badge, ribbon, device, or lapel button upon
the accused’s uniform or civilian clothing;
(2) That the accused was not authorized to wear
the item;
(3) That the wearing was wrongful; and
(4) That, under the circumstances, the conduct of
the accused was to the prejudice of good order and
discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to
bring discredit upon the armed forces.
c. Explanation. None.
d. Lesser included offense. Article 80—attempts
e . M a x i m u m p u n i s h m e n t . B a d - c o n d u c t d i s c h a r g e ,
forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement
for 6 months.

Yes, he can claim ignorance and confusion, as is his norm, but if you want to take a hard look at his "military service" this does count in the whole picture.

Great job Walt!
Gunny C/USMC (Retired)

[gcomeau]

63. A main point that needs to be stressed.

...and spread all through the media... is that every attack on Kerry's military service boils down to "forget what the glowing reports in the official records say, listen to me! I have no evidence but I'm telling the truth, I swear!" followed by lie after proven, demonstrated lie.

"Nobody else got a bronze star in that incident" (oh, wait, *I* did...) from Thurlow.

Nobody could get a swift boat into cambodia! (oh, wait... except ME.... damn tape recorders) - O'Neill (And "On" the border on the vietnam side my ass, he said "IN" Cambodia and "ALONG" the border. Why isn't he getting hammered on that every time he tells some media personality he said "on"?)

etc...

Every attack on Bush's "service" boils down to "just READ the records! It's RIGHT THERE!"

And every point that can be scored against Bush on the basis of those records should be used to raise public awareness of that discrepency. It should be mentioned EVERY time this issue is raised ANYWHERE.

Hopefully Walt can get his contact (whoever it might be) to include that angle, at least in passing mention.

-Grant

[MichDem10]

23. Questions for Walt

1) Have you had further contact with the media person?

2) What is the probability this will pick up steam?

[Walt Starr]

25. Answers

1) I have been in contact with multiple members of the media answering questions and giving additional details.

2) Your guess is as good as mine. With the Pentagon spy story and the convention, I don't see it happening for quite a while, though I could be wrong about that.

[dweller]

28. looks like the frontline is already here

trying to debunk you all the same..

"that's not smoke, it's steam!"

:eyes:

hold your cards tight WS, no reason to show your hold cards.
dp

[unfrigginreal]

50. I agree

Screw the updates. As long as Walt and Grasswire are communicating with the media, that's all we need to know.

Don't let up Walt and try to get this shit "out there" before November.

[Joy Anne]

33. media

I cited your research, and I bet I'm not the only one. I'm not surprised about multiple members of the media.

[hexola]

26. Do we know what the other award is???

I couldn't find anything similar in the award picture links in the other thread



Do we know what that award is?

[Doohickie]

34. I think Walt said it was the Small Arms Marksmanship Expert Award

Or something like that

[City Lights]

29. Keep at it, Walt.

You're doing a fine job.

[hexola]

30. Any update on the photo origins? photo purpose?

[hexola]

36. How is AFOUA awarded?

Your reasoning suggests it is awarded in 2 year increments?

Is that the case?

How does a unit earn an AFOUA?

[Walt Starr]

52. The regulations covering the awarding of the AFOUA are in AFI 36-2803

First, who can get it is in Chapter 4, Section 4.3, and I quote:

"4.3.1. Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (AFOUA). Awarded in the name of the SAF. The following
types of units are eligible for consideration:
4.3.1.1. Numbered Units such as Air Forces, Air Divisions, Wings, Groups, and Squadrons to
includes provisional units.
4.3.1.2. Medical Facilities, such as hospitals, clinics, medical centers (numbered or unnumbered).
4.3.1.3. Detachments, operating locations, training sites or Air Force elements on their own merit
or identified by the parent unit or organization to share in the award (do not consider under both)."

Next, units sharing in it is in Section 4.5, and I quote:

"4.5. Units Sharing in the AFOUA or AFOEA:
4.5.1. Subordinate activities do not automatically share in an award with the parent unit or organization.
Organizations can share their award only with like subordinate organizations (i.e., for a numbered
parent organization, only numbered subordinate units may share; for an unnumbered parent
organization, only unnumbered subordinate units may share unless otherwise specified in this AFI).
4.5.2. Identify each sharing subordinate activity in the parent organization nomination.
4.5.3. Host organizations may identify tenant units to share in the award providing the tenant units’
parent major commands concur."

Now, how to reccomend and process is Section 4.6 and other applicable information through Section 4.8:

4.6. Preparing and Processing Recommendations. Include:
4.6.1. Letter of recommendation, which includes the name of the unit being recommended, name of
award being recommended, type of service, and inclusive dates of the award. List all previous awards
to nominated unit. List all assigned and attached subordinate units that will share in the award and the
inclusive dates if they differ from the parent unit. The recommending official signs the letter of recommendation
(see Table 4.1.).
4.6.2. Summary of unit’s specific accomplishments.
4.6.3. Proposed citation to accompany the award (when the recommendation is classified include an
unclassified citation).
4.6.4. Process a recommendation for award to a unit of one of the other US armed forces branches or
to an armed forces unit of a friendly nation through USAF channels to the awarding authority using
the same criteria as listed above.
4.6.5. Publish award of the unit decorations and battle honors in orders of the awarding authority.
Include in the special order: Type of award, name of unit, subordinate units entitled to share in the
award, and the inclusive period for each sharing unit if the period differs from the parent unit. Submit
a listing of each unit with all of the above information to HQ AFPC/DPPPRA by 31 December each
year, along with a summary listing the number of like units in the command and the number of unit
awards for those units in each cycle. HQ AFPC/DPPPRA publishes information on unit awards annually.
Forward a copy of the approved award orders to the Air Force Historical Research Agency (HQ
AFHRA/RSO), 600 Chennault Circle, Maxwell, AFB AL 36112-6424.
4.6.6. Award elements:
4.6.6.1. Streamer. Streamer, embroidered with the name of the act or period of service. Do not
issue a streamer to a unit not authorized a flag or guidon.
4.6.6.2. Citation. See Attachment 4 and Attachment 5.
4.6.6.3. Certificate. Issue certificates only to the awarded unit, not to sharing units. Air Force
Form 2262, Air Force Organizational Excellence Award (Achievement); AF Form 2085, Air
Force Organizational Excellence Award Certificate (Service); AF Form 2269, Air Force Outstanding
Unit Award (Service); AF Form 2271, Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (Achievement).
4.6.6.4. Unit Decorations. Include:
4.6.6.4.1. The specific award and decoration.
4.6.6.4.2. Authority and descriptive basis for the award.
4.6.6.4.3. The period during which the unit distinguished itself.
4.6.6.4.4. Statement describing the unit’s cited action or service.
4.6.6.4.5. Component elements of the cited organization and other attached units and detachments
that share in the award.
4.6.6.4.6. The specific period (if different from the inclusive dates of the award) during which
each unit shares.
4.6.6.4.7. Both the new and old unit designations (name and number) of units that share in the
award, if redesignated during the cited period (for example, 4 Military Airlift Squadron formerly
4 Air Transport Squadron).
4.6.6.4.8. The statement: "With V Device," if the award is for meritorious service or outstanding
achievement in a combat area.
4.7. Notifying National Guard Bureau (NGB). Awarding authorities for unit awards notify NGB Public
Affairs when awarding any unit award for an ANG unit.
4.8. Battle Honors. Include authority and description of the award; statement whether it is the basic theater
award, or an award for taking part in a campaign, in an amphibious or assault landing, and the inclusive
dates; a listing of units cited; administrative instructions for issuing emblems, ribbons, bronze service
stars, or arrowheads to eligible members of cited units; administrative instructions concerning entries to
be made in unit and personnel records.
4.9. Sister Service Unit Awards. These awards are similar to Air Force unit awards; Air Force units
may accept them with advanced DAF approval. A unit recommended for an award from another US military
service must ensure the DAF has concurred on the award. If DAF concurrence was not obtained, the
organization must request acceptance through the appropriate command channels to HQ AFPC/DPPPRA."

If you plug "AFI 36-2803" into Google, you can get a copy of this manual.

[hexola]

55. That helps but what I'm getting at is...

Would a unit be given this award on a monthly basis? or once a year? Or does the CO just decide "Wow you guys have been great tha last 6 months! I'm writing you up for AFOUA!"

Hence - a unit could get 20 AFOUA reccomendations over a few years...and still say "Unit X received the AFOUA from October 1, 1973 to September 31, 1975" See what I mean - what does "recieved the AFOUA" mean...?

This clause seems to indicate some dichotmy - "specific period" - "inclusive dates"

4.6.6.4.6. The specific period (if different from the inclusive dates of the award) during which each unit shares.

[Walt Starr]

68. The award is ALWAYS given after the specific period listed

in the orders.

The Specific Period for award number 1 was February 1, 1965 to March 31, 1966, meaning the orders were cut no sooner than April 1, 1966 and probably a few months after that date.

The Specific Period for award number 2 was October 1, 1973 until September 30, 1975 meaning the orders for that award were cut no sooner than October 1, 1975 and probably a few months later than that.

[John_H]

37. Christ. Did nobody watch Lisa Meyers' report?

The reporter who gave us phony exploding pickup trucks and Anita Broderick gives credence to a guy who despite not saying anything until now, despite being a bush supporter, despite probably not even being on the fucking boat,despite having no evidence at all questions the purple heart.

I just don't know another way to say it: The severity of Chimps unquestionably wearing a ribbon he didn't earn is not the reason the story should or should not run.

The reason journalism demands the story run is that the media themselves has made whether somebody wore a medal they didn't earn an issue.

now that that issue has been made a part of the campaign by the bush team and the media there is no, none, nada, zip, zero defensible reason not to run Walt"s story.

If the media doesn't run this story it's not because they think nobody will care about Chimps unit ribbon. It's because Alterman, Moore, Franken, MWO, and hundreds of DUers are right about them.

[Memekiller]

39. Here, here....

You have done a thousand times the research the media needed to run the SBL. Good God, why do Dems insist on being better people than them? It's such an encomberance.

[Apple Smoothie]

42. Did I miss it...

Who was it that called you or w/e the other night, or can you not tell? I've been following as much as I could find.

[Apple Smoothie]

43. Kick!

:kick:

[Walt Starr]

54. Since this thing is ongoing, I can't say

Suffice it to say, the media is interested and is vetting it.

[eleny]

44. Bernie Ward just mentioned this ribbon issue on his show

http://www.kgoam810.com/

[Bozita]

62. I sent the links to Bernie and Mike Webb on Thursday evening

I'm sure that others did too.

[Pachamama]

46. Spoke to someone with the Kerry Campaign about this - he said that he

"heard" about this last night.....He then started telling the guy that was there from Veteran's for Kerry....I never got from him how he had "heard" this, but he was fascinated that I had heard about it....clearly word has gotten to the Kerry campaign about this issue...

Good work Walt....keep it up!

[snippy]

51. Is there any similarity to Bush wearing this unauthorized ribbon and

wearing Naval Aviator's wings to the Carrier Costume Party? I recall more than one irate post from either someone who earned those wings or from a spouse of someone who earned those wings saying that Bush was not entitled to wear the wings.

[BurtWorm]

56. Walt, Democrats.com has a link to your original DU thread

in its daily newsletter today. Nice! :toast:

[Fleshdancer]

58. That's cool....

I still think it would be useful to write all this information as an easy to follow press release and put it on the DU Home page for when other sites want to link to the story.

[troubleinwinter]

60. Article & photo, democrats.com

Article & link: http://democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Bush%20AWOL

Photo: http://democrats.com/index.cfm

[BurtWorm]

57. Self-deleted dupe

[gcomeau]

61. Hey Walt, down here.

I've got some info you might want to look at (another issue, not medals related) that I'd rather not post until it's firmed up some more.

I don't have enough posts to pm or e-mail you. PM me?

-Grant

[gcomeau]

65. Ok... in case Walt doesn't read this...

...is there anyone else who would be willing to give me contact info (PM me) and who can forward it to either him or some other DUer with media contacts?

I'll forward what case I've put together thus far to someone with over 1000 posts who steps up and volunteers.

Yeah, I know I'm a newbie... but give me a chance! I seriously think I've got something here!

FYI: I need to leave for Tokyo tomorrow on business... and I don't know what my internet connection will be like at the hotel I'm checking into. I assume I'll be fine for internet access but I can't be sure, so I'd like to pass this off today.

-Grant

[Renew Deal]

69. I PM'd him for you.

[gcomeau]

70. Thank you!

I just finally figured out I could PM mods so I sent the info off to Skinner, but I'd still be happy to send it to Walt if I can get contact info.

-Grant

[Walt Starr]

72. You should be able to email me

Click the email icon next to my name.

[gcomeau]

73. Tried that.

It says I don't have enough posts to use the feature whether I try PM or e-mail...

-Grant

[Walt Starr]

74. Click the email icon next to my name

[e-mail]

[gcomeau]

75. Thank you!

Just fired off what I've got. Let me know what you think.

-Grant

[Stephanie]

64. Another issue: Bush is not a Veteran

Just received this in email - thought you might be interested, Walt:

Is Bush a "phony veteran"? Someone might want to check this out with some Legion experts and legal experts. I'm sending this information to you because I believe you're the best at getting this to right people to investigate this using some real journalists. If this issue gets legs, please remember this is way off the record.
As a combat veteran and member of The American Legion, I blew a damn gasket this evening when my September edition of "The American Legion" magazine arrived. Inside, on page 32, The Legion reports that Bush is a member of American Legion Post 77 in Texas. Well, Bush isn't a veteran, so Bush can't be a member of The American Legion. This issue is timely because Bush is set to speak before the Legion convention this weekend in Nashville, Tennessee.

Here's the bottom line: Either Bush has a discharge from active duty or he doesn't. Unless Bush can cough up a valid and complete DD214 as evidence of active duty, then Bush is a fraud, and he can't be a member of The Legion, either.

On the outside chance Bush was discharged from active duty, then the official paperwork, a DD214 (Department of Defense Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty) will contain separation codes, re-enlistment codes, and periods of active duty that should open another Pandora's Box of inquiry to check pay records, attendance records, etc. Either way, the press has something to work with.

As the Washington Monthly reported Karl Rove as allegedly saying, "We don't care who or what you are, if you fuck with us, we will fuck you and your loved ones and your careers and your dog and anything else that will hurt you, so don't fuck with us." Well, Bush is killing our kids. Without advocating violence, Bush and his pal Rove need a long hard taste of their own medicine.

I've listed seven sources below to help get you started.


1. Here are the legal definitions of "veteran," "active duty," and "active duty for training."

There is a huge difference between "active duty" and "active duty for training." A person can only become a veteran if they were on "active duty." Very simply, "active duty for training" doesn't qualify a person for veteran status.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/38/101.html

Title 38, United States Code, Part I, Chapter 1, Section 101, Paragraph 2: The term ''veteran'' means a person who served in the active military, naval, or air service, and who was discharged or released therefrom under conditions other than dishonorable (emphasis added)

Title 38, United States Code, Part I, Chapter 1, Section 101, Paragraph 21: The term ''active duty'' means - (A) full-time duty in the Armed Forces, other than active duty for training (emphasis added)

Title 38, United States Code, Part I, Chapter 1, Section 101, Paragraph 22: The term ''active duty for training'' means - (A) full-time duty in the Armed Forces performed by Reserves for training purposes (emphasis added)


2. According to Bush's military records, Bush has a discharge from the Air Force Reserve, and was issued a NGB 22 (National Guard Bureau Form 22, Bush's Report of Separation and Record of Service in the Air National Guard of Texas). A NGB 22 isn't a DD214. Under Line 30 on Bush's NGB 22, only training is listed. There are no periods of active duty are listed on Bush's NGB 22.

http://www.glcq.com/docs/arf_discharge.htm




3. According to an Associated Press article, Bush was never on regular active duty. Bush served only in the Texas Air National Guard (TANG). I've searched all the "AWOL" anti-Bush web sites, but I can't find where Bush was ever issued a DD214. If Bush was ever on active duty, he must have been issued a DD214. The news clip below shows Karen Hughes tried to blur the lines by saying training was equal to active duty. You may want to call the Department of Defense, Department of Veterans Affairs, the Air Force, and the National Guard Bureau to get official definitions first, without revealing that you're investigating Bush.

http://www.theunionleader.com/Gourmet_show.html?article=538&archive=1

July 17, 1999, Associated Press:

FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) - In 1978 campaign literature, George W. Bush said he served in the Air Force, a statement his Presidential campaign says is legitimate based on time he spent training and on alert while a member of the Texas Air National Guard.
The Air Force says once a guardsman, always a guardsman, even if called to active duty for training or another temporary assignment.
The Republican Presidential front-runner already had faced questions about whether he received preferential treatment when he joined the Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.
A pullout ad from The Lubbock Avalanche-Journal on May 4, 1978, shows a huge picture of Bush with a "Bush for Congress" logo on the front. On the back, a synopsis of his career says he served "in the U.S. Air Force and the Texas Air National Guard, where he piloted the F-102 aircraft."
Asked about the statement that the Texas governor served in the Air Force, spokeswoman Karen Hughes said yesterday that it was all accurate. She said that while Bush was attending flight school from November 1968 to November 1969, he was considered to be on active duty for the U.S. Air Force. Also, at several times when he was serving in the Guard, he was placed on alert and considered to be on active duty as well, she said.
The Air Force says that Air National Guard members are considered "guardsmen on active duty" while receiving pilot training. They are not, however, counted as members of the overall active-duty Air Force.


4. According to CNN, then-governor Bush appeared in person before The Legion convention in 2000 as a member of Post 77 in Texas:

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0009/06/ip.00.html

BUSH: George Bush, Post 77, reporting for duty.
CROWLEY: Criticized for criticizing military readiness, George W. Bush went to an American Legion convention and launched an offensiveŠ.

Bush is expected to speak again before the Legion convention that starts this weekend in Nashville, Tennessee.


5. According to the Houston Chronicle, as recently as August 2003, Bush claimed to be a member of Post 77 in Houston, Texas:

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/iraq/2067941

"Bush, a former Texas Air National Guardsman and a member of the American Legion's Post 77 in Houston, emphasized the positive benchmarks of the war Š."

The question here is this: Did the Houston Chronicle reporter check to see if Bush was a member in good standing at the local Legion Post?


6. According to membership application at The American Legion web site, a prospective member must meet these three requirements:

"I certify by forwarding this application that

<1> I served at least one day of active military duty

<2> during the dates marked below and
<3> was honorably discharged or am still serving honorably."
The Legion application requires "active duty," and there is no reference to "active duty for training." Sure, Bush has an honorable discharge from the TANG between 1961 and 1975, but Bush has no discharge from active military duty produced by the White House.
https://join.legion.org/be_a_member/bm_applyonline.php


7. Each local Legion post must keep a copy of every member's DD214 on file as evidence of membership eligibility, otherwise anyone could walk off the street and join. Here's their address and phone number where Bush claims to be a member: American Legion Post 77, 1216 West Clay Street, Houston, TX, [phone]. Someone may want to contact Post 77 in Houston to verify his membership status and get a copy of his DD214, with his Social Security Number blacked out.

Here's another issue: According to the news clip below, Bush let his Legion membership expire in 2002 !
http://www.caller2.com/2002/april/04/today/texasnew/27692.html

"Tom Harris, assistant director for membership at the group's national headquarters, said Bush joined Post 77 in Houston in 1995, the same year he took office as governor. Bush was part of the Texas Air National Guard in the Vietnam era. Bush's membership has expired because he did not pay the Houston post's $25 in annual dues before the end of last year, but Harris said Bush could renew."

In the event the local Legion Post doesn't cooperate, here's the number for the Legion National Headquarters: [phone]. The Legion convention starts this weekend in Nashville, Tennessee.

[AirAmFan]

66. Great work, Stephanie! Your research deserves its own threads

--at least two threads. One would be something like, "Does the Legion have *'s 1974 DD214"? and the other something like "Is * REALLY a veteran"?

Maybe Harriet Miers and Dan Bartlett missed the American Legion when they purged his Texas records in 1997.

[Stephanie]

78. This is not my research at all

I got this in email from a friend, secondhand. Not my research. But it's pretty interesting, right?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

71. Walt Starr's Research makes the news

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x684479

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

76. What was Bush wearing on his flightsuit?

This is probably a blind alley, because I don't think Bush is quite stupid enough to wear phoney medals at his "Mission Accomplished" extravaganza, but the photo at the White House link below shows what appears to be a pilot's insignia and some medals below it. It would be hilarious if he had brought his heroic phoney medals out of mothballs and stuck them on his flightsuit.

[teach1st]

77. Another view. WARNING: Don't look at the bottom of this pic

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

79. Eeeww!

He's wearing a sock in the crotch of his flight suit. He's also wearing naval aviator's wings, which I hardly think he was technically entitled to wear, either. I'm guessing it says "Commander in Chief." But I suppose the Navy made him an "honorary" aviator (for the airplane he didn't actually fly) for the glorious occasion.

[TaleWgnDg]

80. let's just get this ribbon/medal awards cleared up . . . !!

======================================
"If this were a dictatorship, it would
be a heck of a lot easier — so long as
I'm the dictator." — George W. Bush
======================================

[Name removed]

81. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TacticalPeek]

82. Be advised:

Neither DD214 nor DD215 awards medals.

Try again.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

100. "LT Squared away Kerry"....care to explain that?

:shrug:

[PA Democrat]

83. Oh yes. **WE** has better be careful.

Yes, Kerry's shameful long hair might distract people from the fact that Dubya was out dancing naked on bars and snorting cocaine, while Kerry was risking his life.


:eyes:

[Walt Starr]

84. I compared them

Kerry's awards were spot on with his DD214 and DD215.

[TXGUARD]

85. How's that

How could they be spot on, The DD215 is dated March 12 2001. So when Kerry's picture was taken he was in fact wearing awards he was not awarded.

[Walt Starr]

86. Look at Kerry's site

Look at the pictures.

In fact, he was wearing two bronze stars fewer on his VSM than were listed in his DD215.

Look at the record. Kerry was honorable, your boy went AWOL.

You're trying to make your coward boy into a hero when he was a zero.

One thing I'll give you on your boy, he did earn the Yellow Heart for cowardice.

[TXGUARD]

88. So much for civil debate.

You go ahead and resort to attacks, since you can't debate the merits of the argument.

[Walt Starr]

89. You probably should have read the rules before you signed up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Read 'em, but I don't think you'll have an account much longer.

[TXGUARD]

90. Jeez Louise...

I am a democrat,

I'm from Texas, I'm an LBJ Democrat, but a democrat none the less. Funny how things change, I've been here in the Democratic party all along, I remember when the fringe used to protest against OUR party, now they run it. Zell Miller's right we are a National Party no More!

I've been polite

I've been respectful

But I acknowledge that you have greater influence on this board than I, so if you wish to silence me I cannot stop you.


Support our troops, They Support You!

[Walt Starr]

91. Sorry, you gave yourself away three posts ago

But you can still play pretend all you want.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

92. I'd say you lost this "fact checking contest". And Walt:

You are now on my "guys I promise to buy a beer" list. :)
I'll buy you several in fact. :toast:

[TXGUARD]

94. The Facts...

Bush wearing one ribbon incorrectly is a fact

Kerry wearing 11 ribbons when he only should be wearing 7 is also a fact.

[Walt Starr]

95. BZZZT, wrong

Look at the records on Kerry's site. It's all documented.

Unlike the zero coward occupying the White House currently.

[TXGUARD]

96. I did

His 214 shows 7 awards, he's wearing 11 individual ribbons, granted some have clusters on them but in the picture he is clearly wearing 11 different decorations.

214 shows 7 he's wearing 11 that is what is documented

[David Zephyr]

93. "Zell Miller's Right"?

Your slip is showing.

[PA Democrat]

98. "Support our troops"

But bash away at the Democratic candidate for president's service record. I guess, that you feel that Kerry and others who protested the Vietnam war should have been silent and allowed maybe another 58,000 names to be added to that wall in Washington.

Yes, saying that you agree with Zell, the keynote speaker at the Republican convention speaks volumes about your commitment to Democratic ideals, like livable wages for the middle class, a clean environment, and Social Security, just to name a few. Wow, talk about "fringe" ideas!

[TXGUARD]

99. That's not the argument!

You all don't get it, This ribbon thing is not going to work that's all I'm trying to tell you. Now Social Security, environment, wages those are the things we should be and need to be focusing on, YES, YES, YES

[PA Democrat]

101. "This ribbon thing is not going to work"

Uh, go tell it to your swift boat buddies. IIRC, they and their friends in the White House started "this ribbon thing" to avoid press coverage of Bush's record on the issues that matter to most Americans.

BTW, if you agree with the issues of a clean environment, Social Security, and livable wages, why would you put yourself in Zell's camp? Zell, who supports the party that has stripped overtime pay from millions, done nothing to encourage companies to stop off shoring jobs, raped the environment, and told the American people not to count on Social Security because tax cuts for the wealthy are more important.


So if you think those are the important issues , what's with the remarks about the length of Kerry's hair?

[henslee]

97. Probably old news but Bushawol.com has Walt's story.

[Karla in Ohio]

102. also saw it on the Kerry Edwards Blog

this was posted on Kerry/Edwards blog...don't know the source of the article, however:

Kerry campaign attacks President over 'war honour he did not earn'
By Charles Laurence in New York
(Filed: 29/08/2004)

Supporters of Senator John Kerry yesterday warned of "blowback" against President George W Bush for the political "attack ads" by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth which have damaged Mr Kerry's election campaign.

After weeks of denigration of the Democratic challenger's Vietnam war record, Mr Kerry's backers have responded with allegations against the President - including the claim that he was once photographed in uniform wearing a medal ribbon he had not earned.

As polls showed that Mr Bush had edged ahead of Mr Kerry for the first time, a pro-Kerry organisation labelled the President an "impostor" over the photograph, taken in 1970 and discovered in his father's Presidential Library in Houston, Texas.

The ribbon is an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award - which was not awarded to the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron in which Mr Bush served until 1975, five years after the photograph was taken, according to the group US War Report.

"Why is this fraud important? Because it betrays the Honour Code that every officer learns and carries throughout his or her career," said Walt Starr who investigated the medals for the group. Separately a new book, Deserter, by Ian Williams, a British-born author, challenges the President with details of how he used his father's influence to join the Texas Air National Guard as a trainee pilot, thereby avoiding service in Vietnam, and then allegedly disappeared from his base without fulfilling his duty.

"Bush has set himself up, and now that the issue is coming up he is going to have to answer questions on his own documented record," said Williams.

Williams's book offers evidence that Mr Bush stopped training in 1972, and failed to take an annual physical examination demanded of all pilots. Deserter also claims that Mr Bush failed to turn up for duty in Alabama, an omission which could have resulted in a charge of being absent without leave, or even desertion.

MoveOn.com, an independent organisation, has repeated the claim in television advertisements that Mr Bush abandoned his military post and the American media has taken up the story. "Alabama is where serious questions arise over whether or not Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Guard," said William McTavish, a Republican, and editor of the Washington on-line political magazine Capitol Hill Blue.

Mr Bush has strongly denied abandoning his duties. He says he left his Texan unit after requesting transfer to Alabama, so that he could also work on a political campaign.

Asked about the medal ribbon, a White House spokesman said he could not respond until the record had been checked.

Meanwhile a new Swift Boat Veterans for Truth television campaign shows veterans accusing Mr Kerry of "treachery" for testifying that atrocities were committed in Vietnam. Williams warned: "There will be blowback, because it is a documented fact that atrocities occurred, and also that Kerry did not accuse all Vietnam vets of committing them."




Posted by sbenskin at August 30, 2004 11:17 PM