Estrich Claims Kerry Wanted to Hammer Smear Immediately. Advised Not To.

[Raya]

Does anyone know for a fact what happened?
Was the "Judo" and "Chess" approach to the Swift-Smear
just the misguided product of fevered minds of the likes of DemStrategist?

Where the hell is DemStrategist these days?

Really? Has Kerry fired his ass?

[Syrinx]

1. I think DemStrategist was badgered out of here

[Raya]

9. DemStrategist Dissappeared when new poll numbers started coming out.

I feel sure he was canned.
If not, let him show and tell what went down.

[bigtree]

27. he told us that he wasn't a member of the campaign. get off of his back

If you had actually bothered to read through his posts that would have jumped out at you. DS was just another Democrat that I am glad we have on our side. If you had your way, and all of those who disagreed with you were banished, the party would look like Nader's margin in the last election.

[John_H]

29. Is the coordination between the DNC and the campaign that chaotic?

I hope Dem_Strategist has a long and happy career, but let's at least be honest to our fellow DUers. He was here with the approval of the campaign (unless his was some kind of rouge operation, which would actually make me feel better).

[molly]

40. Who are you to judge? An expert or what?

[seabeyond]

2. since they so often immediately go after, that makes sense

so learned a lesson and wont ever listen to that one again

[EST]

3. Reference?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. You want a discussion based on facts? But it's so easy to make stuff up.

[rumguy]

4. So what's the Judo and Chess way of dealing with it?

I don't blame the campaign for waiting a bit....

But they have yet to really hammer the smear...when they attack they have to come out guns blazing...

Is Dem Strat still out their lurking...?

[sampsonblk]

8. They have to do it NOW and it has to be sustained and brutal

just like the Swift vets themselves. They have no problem calling Kerry a "liar" and a "fraud." The Kerry people are going to have to hit even harder, and they have to keep it up. Or these lies may put Bush back in office - legitimately this time.

I'm all for "These liars can have the scumbag vote, if that's what they are angling for." All for it. As long as it doesn't come directly from Kerry.

Just my opinion.

[jmowreader]

44. Judo and Chess...

Judo is a martial art that uses the opponent's strength against him.

Chess is a game in which you lure your opponent into a trap then hammer the shit out of him.

What I hope they are doing--I'm not in the campaign so I can't be positive this is what they are doing, but I hope it is--is letting Bush and his various surrogate organizations go so far out on a limb, as they are with the Swifties, that they can't crawl back very quickly...then putting a pen of badgers under the limb and cutting it off with a chainsaw.

By now, if Kerry has any kind of opposition research staff they have already traced the SBVT all the way back to Bush--which is absolutely illegal because McCain-Feingold, which Bush signed without reading, bars candidate interaction with 529 groups like SBVT. And if he's got any kind of an advertising staff, they've already bought the time right after Bush's acceptance speech to announce this to the nation.

[yardwork]

5. I don't trust Susan Estrich

She blew Gore's campaign big time.

[DieboldMustDie]

17. Uh! You mean Dukakis?

:shrug:

[Piperay]

20. The problem was that

Dukasis (assume that's who you meant) did not listen to Estrich, he lost not because of following her advice but because he didn't.

[sampsonblk]

6. Kerry apparently is an armchair strategist! How DARE he??

Since those of us who suggested that, as Kerry did, were told we were "novices" and didn't know what we were talking about.

If Kerry were well ahead, this would be funny.

[Democat]

21. Kerry and Clinton - both "hand wringing armchair strategists?"

The delay in responding was a major tactical error, but Kerry can still win as long as he's willing to fight harder than the Republicans for the rest of the campaign.

[WiseMen]

7. Lot of the folk in the Campaign are from the crew Estrich's ran in

Boston for Dukakis campaign. Very likely that Susan would
have the inside scoop on what happened. My source indicate the
same, but reality is that campaign operatives had not
prepared for the severity of the attack that was launched in
the Swift Ad, especially the personal testimony featured.

They wanted to analyze the content and poll the effects before
reacting. Their "calculation" was totally INSENSITIVE to personal
nature of the attack of Kerry and the need for an immediate
personal response.

[Democat]

22. Some of your comments are the worst nightmares of many Democrats

campaign operatives had not prepared for the severity of the attack

They wanted to analyze the content and poll the effects before reacting.

Those two lines are everything that many of us feared during this election after what we saw in 2000 and 2002.

Let's hope they learned a lesson and bring in some new people to deal with the rest of the campaign.

Maybe Carville needs to get on board?

[KoKo]

46. You said it, Democrat. Our worst scenario for some of us.

and that they didn't learn from Gore campaign or the mid-term elections where McKinney and Cleland were trashed. These folks are "insiders" fgs. They didn't see the viciousness of the attacks coming? They had to wait to see how things "polled?"

Kerry needs to go with his instincts or he's going to be tarred with their latest Meme from the right, that he's Dukakis. They are already putting that out there and it appears ridiculous as a tactic because half the country doesn't remember who Dukakis was and how he was smeared for getting in a tank, but the way they work is to put "Dukakis" out as a bad word, and most folks not knowing anything about the campaign...say oh yeah...some loser Dem from years ago....yeah Kerry's Dukakis, alright."

This is the kind of thing Kerry's campaign should have been on, just like Clinton's folks didn't leave any innuendo hanging out there, but got after it right away.

[AgadorSparticus]

53. right on democat! this is EXACTLY what the other side has been

pinning on us--that we don't have any fire (i.e. decisiveness, leadership, flip flop). and we played right in to it.

i wish someone would tell kerry that he should honor himself and not succumb to polls. he compromises his integrity and that makes him look like a slimy politician. this is exactly what turns people off on kerry. i wholeheartedly support kerry. but i am disappointed that he didn't learn from that suburban comment. he still feels the need to pander to EVERY single person in america. he would garner more respect if he stood up and says what he believes and fortify his base.

while he stood around deciding, they were DOing. and before you mention the whole judo vs. chess pretentions, the average person will be the one deciding on who gets to be the next president. and they don't give a shit about judo vs. chess or finesse. they just want results. or even the APPEARANCE of results.

[ruggerson]

10. Who Does Estrich Claim Advised Him Not To?

They should be fired immediately.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Did it even happen?

[Julien Sorel]

11. If you read half as well as you did political analyisis,

you would know that dem strategist stated several times that he didn't work for Kerry's campaign.

Out of curiosity, how many more of your whiny ass, ignorant "Kerry is running a cowardly campaign" threads are you going to start? I'm simply curious if, as I have always suspected, there is an inverse correlation between intelligence and tolerance for repetitive, dull tasks.

[Raya]

14. I did not study "DemStrategist." I read a couple of his posts that

seemed relevant but quite lame. I apologise for not
mastering all his writings. But, in those 2 posts he seemed to
have direct knowledge of the Kerry campaign "Judo" strategy for
dealing with the Svet Smear.

Some of us were abused for doubting the wisdom of the
approach that he pompously suggested was being engineered
by the campaign.

[Julien Sorel]

15. I see.

So you didn't pay attention to him, but you are now obsessed with him to the point where you start nightly threads demanding that he be fired. OK. I guess. You may now continue demonstrating your extensive knowledge of campaign strategy.

[Raya]

16. Why are you so angry that I post the Estrich statement? Are you

part of the "Svet, no problem" group? What motivates you
to be so persistently insulting?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

35. You didn't post any statement from Estrich.

Where is this supposed statement? When was it made? In what context?


Link, please.

[Democat]

23. Maybe she/he's sick of being insulted for suggesting there was a mistake?

If Kerry wanted to respond immediatly, then that makes the "hand wringing" and "armchair strategist" comments even funnier - espcially considering that Bill Clinton himself went on the Daily Show and said that Democrats must respond immediatly to attacks.

If a DUer agrees with Kerry and Clinton, they are just "hand wringers?" :)

[Julien Sorel]

24. Starting hysterical,

nightly threads demanding that people who aren't even working for the campaign be fired and predicting doom is "suggesting there was a mistake?"

Something tells me Clinton and Kerry didn't go around howling that doom is at hand, that people need to be fired, that everyone is wearing pink tu tus, that no one is doing anything, and on, and on, and on, like the armchair strategists here do.

And what exactly is "responding immediately to attacks?" You mean like proving all the allegations the Swift Hoaxers have made are lies? I guess that's not responding, because it's been done and done and done.

I've seen this every day here for two weeks now:

"The Kerry campaign has to do something about this. They're dooooooooooomed!"

"What should they do?"

"They need to attack back!"

"How?"

"They need to respond!"

"In what way"

"They're weak! They won't respond!"

"How should they respond?"

"They're dooooooooooooooooooomed! They need to fire someone!"



Of course, that's the beauty of sitting on your ass behind a computer monitor. You get to demand that someone do something, but you never have to say what, and you get to criticize any and all results. You don't even have to know what you're talking about.

[DoYouEverWonder]

25. I'd say at least one or two a day

until the election.

I'm just hoping the mods do something about this (im)poster before then.

[jackstraw45]

12. DemStrategist said he DIDN'T work for the Kerry campaign

He said this quite explicitly. Pretty hard to get fired from a campaign you don't work for.

[oldtime dfl_er]

13. with the Repug convention...

....dominating the news for the next week, nothing Kerry says is going to have any great impact. Wait til the hideousness of Mad Square Garden is over, and I think we'll see Kerry come out swinging. In the meantime, it's up to us, the incredibly wonderful "protestors" out in the streets, the rapid response team (or whatever Hillary's group is called), and the few Democrats who will be covering the convention, to speak the truth!! I for one plan to be extremely active in the next four or five days, calling foul on every word out of Candy's and Wolfie's mouths!!

[kskiska]

54. Brit Hume just led Faux News with a story on the Swift Boat guys

They got another vet to come out and say there was no fire the day Rassman was rescued and no holes in boats. They're trying to keep the story going through the convention. They've got new commercials coming out in Florida in cities where there are heavy concentrations of military.

[VolcanoJen]

18. Estrich is the last person who should claim expertise...

... in the area of Democratic strategy. :eyes:

[Raya]

19. She was just reporting what she had heard when the smear began.

She was not giving strategy. She seems to know all the folk
in the Kerry campaign.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

39. Where did she supposedly make this claim? Did it happen?

Where's the link?

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WiseMen]

30. Sorry, who is UTUSN?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Have To Take My Mom To A Doctor's Appointment

so I don't have the time to wax eloquently but if you were a Poli Sci or History major you would realize these races have dynamics of their own often independent of the candidate and his staff's campaigning abilitities...



Great and poor campaigns make a difference only at the margins...


Here's a crude example... I could have coached the great Cowboy teams of the early 90's to a Superbowl win with the nucleus of Aikman, Smith, and Irvin....

[lottie244]

31. If Kerry can't control his own campaign...why would he make a good Pres?

I have been very disappointed in the management of the Kerry campaign so far. It's almost like a Republican mole is running the show. Don't they even read the DU? Many more great ideas about issues and campaign moves can be found here than what they are spending their money on.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. It is a republican lie to say that Kerry can't control his campaign

do you believe it?

[WiseMen]

34. I suspect a great campaigner would not make a great president

Especially if one has to campaign against Rove's filth.

[Tomee450]

52. I agree with you.

I am uneasy about the way this campaign is going. I think Kerry's team does not act fast enough and have poor spokespersons. I hope Kerry wins but the fact that he is only a few points ahead in some polls,neck and neck or slightly behind in others concern me. How could that be with all the issues that could be used against this administration. I just don't understand why Kerry is not doing better.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

32. DID ESTRICH REALLY CLAIM THAT?

Where? When? Link? Reference?

[molly]

38. Exactly!

[Sensitivity]

41. Sad to say, I saw it too. Explaining to Brit Hume events immediately

following the release of the AD. Discussion was something of
a post-mortem. She said the called into her contacts in the
campaign the same night and was given the run down on the internal debate.

Was rather depressing it that she commented that if Bush wins
based on this smear strategy, it would be "illigitimate." As if he
cares!

[Democat]

42. If Bush wins it would be "illegitimate"? Winning means everything!

If Democrats haven't learned their lesson by now, they never will!

Being nice is worthless. Taking the high road in politics will get you nothing.

Winning is everything when it comes to politics.

If the Democratic Party hasn't woken up by now maybe they never will until the current officials are all replaced.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. These Races Have A Dynamic All Their Own

but I agree with you...


It's not how you run your campaign... It only matters if you win or lose...

[Tarheel_Dem]

43. i don't think you'll ever get any link, reference, or context.....

from the o.p. i agree with billy bunter, this is getting very tiresome. offer up a nightly thread, bitching & moaning, from the safety of your computer, and never offering anything constructive or uplifting about the campaign. these threads are created for the sole purpose of spreading apathy amongst the good folks at DU. i think the o.p. should really be investigated by the mods.

[Democat]

45. Here is a link to someone who says it was from Brit Hume

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x691148#692659

[KoKo]

47. Not spread apathy.....just light fires under Kerry's Campaign so

they start putting out an A-List Team of folks who can get "the facts" out without being run over by a Repug Talk Stream.

They have gotten better in the last week, though, seems to me from my scant hits of the cables. I haven't heard of Podesta making another round on the talk shows, so there's hope.

Some of us want the campaign to have more "energy" in going back. Sorry if some of you feel we are demoralizing you..or getting you down. We just are so anxious that we win, and so tired of losing we hope to see more "spunk" from the Campaign operatives they send out.

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. thank you koko01..........

some of you who supported others in the primaries are genuinely concerned with helping the nominee, but you have to admit there seem to be more & more "sky is falling" folks crawling out of the woodwork lately. and what's really peculiar is that they rarely, if ever, show up on threads that hold good news for our candidate & his supporters. just my observation :shrug:

[oasis]

48. Estrich's Dem credentials have eroded considerably since Fox has put

her on their payroll.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. Rebut this

August 28, 2004

What that "Awful" LA Times Poll Really Means

"But the Bush campaign made a profound miscalculation. In the L.A. Times survey, only 18% of the voters had been convinced that "Kerry misrepresented his war record and does not deserve his war medals" while 58% said Kerry "fought honorably and does deserve" them. Independent voters sided with Kerry 5 to 1. Even men and self-described conservatives - groups that are normally quite pro-Bush - strongly supported Kerry, by 59 to 19 for men and 42 to 29 for conservatives. Other polls, such as the Fox/Opinion Dynamics and Annenberg Center for Public Policy survey found similar attitudes. In the Fox poll, even most veterans held, by 50% to 21% that Kerry deserved his purple hearts.

Moreover, Americans did not buy Bush's transparent attempts to pretend his campaign was not involved with the smear. The Gallup poll showed that more Americans think Bush is responsible for the commercials (50%) then do not (44%) and 56% think he should specifically denounce them while only 32% think he should not. An August 26 Annenberg Center survey found very similar attitudes.

http://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyr...

[lancdem]

55. If this is true, I'm kind of relieved

That means Kerry will trust his gut next time and not be dissuaded.

[fujiyama]

56. If this is the case

Kerry should have IMMEDIATELY socked some of his advisors. He didn't need to quite have a shake up like he did during the primaries, but some changes might have helped.

I trust KERRY'S political instincts, but I hate the worthless advisors. I'm also starting to believe that all these "democratic" advisors and talking heads are trojan horses (like Donna Brazile). Unfortunately, our candidates like Gore and Kerry aren't showing the confidence needed to tell these people to go to hell.

All in all, I remain hopeful that the Shit Boat Liars haven't completely killed Kerry's campaign. It has hurt to some extent (that much is evident in that it has brought up his negatives) but he's holding on OK in important battleground states. The way Kerry handles Bush's post convention bounce (and the debates of course) will be telling.

[lancdem]

58. Keep in mind Kerry may have demoted some people

internally, if this indeed happened. But that's something you don't want getting out in public because it makes you look like you're in disarray.

[misterphelps]

57. Does this mean they'll actually fight from now on?

Whoever has been advising is wrong. America wants a strong leader. Not some whiner telling his attacker to stop hitting him.

The best I've seen Kerry in this campaign is when he came out strongly against this BS.