REMEMBER how the DEMS were GOADED into "NO BUSH BASHING"

[in_cog_ni_to]

right before their convention??? It was the KKKRove meme for a week prior to the DNC. "All the Democrats want to do is Bash Bush." "All the Democrats want to do is Bash Bush." "All the Democrats want to do is Bash Bush."

Bash Bush

Bash Bush

Bash Bush

Bash Bush.........and the Dems played right into his hand....and DIDN'T "Bash Bush." The speakers had their speeches vetted to make sure they weren't "negative." Remember? Remember? Remember?

IT WAS A SET UP!! Let's goad the Dems into "playing nice" and at OUR convention, we'll lambaste them. It's all so clear now.

Parasites! :grr:

[asthmaticeog]

1. The Dems started the "No Bush Bashing" meme

to do an end-run around the accusation they knew would be coming. It wasn't Rove's game. So quit yelling. :)

[Spentastic]

4. What?

So the strategy was to appear to be weak and it suceeded?

Brilliant.

[molly]

7. Not weak - above it all

that takes strength.

[Spentastic]

8. Well that depends

If the general population shares the same lofty ideals. Do you think they do?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. Among swing voters/indies, yes, that is true

they want to hear about the issues, not personal attacks.

[Democat]

37. "Above it all" while kids die in Iraq and seniors go without medicine

Winning is all the matters in politics. Gore's failure to slam Bush in 2000 helped allow kids to die in Iraq, Americans to lose their jobs, and seniors to not be able to afford their prescription drugs.

Anyone who thinks that "taking the high road" is more important than winning isn't looking at the big picture.

Either what we believe in is worth fighting for or it's not?

[Julien Sorel]

12. You're either bashing or you're weak.

What moron set up that dichotomy?

[Spentastic]

16. Well Mr Brilliant

I would guess that the Republicans did.

The correct response to this would have been to proceed as planned and define the argument on our terms. Bush deserves bashing. The Democratic "strategists" instead decided to try and avoid all criticism by being nice, therefore appearing weak when compared with their Republican counterparts. It hardly takes a genius to see who has the superior strategy.

[Julien Sorel]

19. Unfortunately, you are seldom allowed to

"define the argument on your terms" in life. In politics, the media jealousy guard that particular role; presumably since they decided their integrity isn't worth anything, the least they can do is not let people go around defining their own terms.

The Democratic "strategists" instead decided to try and avoid all criticism by being nice, therefore appearing weak when compared with their Republican counterparts.

Again, you are acting as if your own dichotomy is fact: attacking is strength. Of course, the Democratic "strategists" have done their own attacking; as I have repeatedly pointed out, the Democrats have spent as much money, all told, on negative ads as have the Republicans, and there were certainly some attacks made at Bush during the Democratic Convention. Not enough attacks, apparently, to satisfy those with the intellect and patience of a 10 year old.

[Spentastic]

22. Cool its insult time

Lets see where patience gets cowardly losers.

I believe this post falls within the rules as much as yours does.

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. and not bashing Bush really worked well in 2002,

didn't it? We're repeating the same thing. If it didn't work in the 2002 Mid-Term election, why would it work now? :shrug:

[Julien Sorel]

28. So you think bashing Bush

in 2002, when his approval ratings never went below 60% was a winning political strategy?????????? Did I read that correctly?

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Hi, Billy.

Nice to see you again. :hi: Yup, you read it right. If not bashing the idiot didn't work in 2002, why would it work now? We need to learn from our mistakes and stop repeating them.

Democrats need some balls. IMCPO.

[Julien Sorel]

34. This isn't 2002.

However, not bashing Bush in 2002 was the exact correct strategy to follow, just as attacking him in one way or another is the correct strategy now.

Here is a thread I started, largely with the intent of examining, in a roundabout way, the efficacy of the Dem strategy in 2002. So far, I haven't seen anyone show me a single race that the Dems would have won had they attacked Bush. There is one, the South Dakota senate campaign of Tim Johnson, that they almost certainly would have lost; I believe there are others as well. Had things turned out differently in Iraq, Democrats would still be suffering fallout had they pursued a Bush bashing strategy in 2002.

If the deck is stacked against you and you play the hand perfectly, you're still going to lose, you know.

[slojim240]

2. That's what happens when you allow the media and Repugs run your

campaign. You are right on target. If Kerry doesn't get control of his own campaign and stop helping the Repugs by allowing the media and Rove to define him and the rest of us...we will lose!

[slor]

3. I agree somewhat...

they did go too easy on them for my tastes (the jury is out whether this is good or bad...do not fall for the new "they should have been harder on chimpy, so they blew it" meme). But let us not forget Carter, Sharpton, and yes even Kerry. My favorite line from his speech, "What if we had a President who believed in Science?". Great stuff! The difference is, that the the Dems did it more tastefully and with wit, rather than the crass crap the rethugs are spewing. I still believe that the pundits are calling this all wrong, and people will be turned off. Remember how they loved *'s state of the union speech, but the next morning, with the citizen on the street interviews, people were asking wtf was he talking about. Blasting Kerry will not create more jobs or secure Iraq, and people who want to hear real solutions to the real problems, problems that * still seems unwilling to acknowledge, know that.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. It worked on McCain and Cleland.

:shrug: McCain isn't the president and Cleland is no longer a Senator. :(

[Connie_Corleone]

6. Maybe one day Democrats will wake up

and smell the can of woop-ass. And after they get finished smelling it, maybe they'll actually open it up on these repugs.

[in_cog_ni_to]

9. The list of candiate that lay in

their wake is telling. Cleland, McCain, McKinney, Gray Davis .... I'm sure there's many more I can't think of this early in the morning. :(

[AmerDem]

10. I said this very exact thing here 2 days ago

and the thread was quickly push to 2 and 3 rd pages with NO interest ( possibly 1 person ).

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. Hmmm. wonder why?

Too negative? If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all? THAT'S THE POINT! WE are TOO damn NICE!!!!!!

It's true though. When you look at the week prior to the Dem convention, it was ALL about the Dems "Bashing Bush" and that's all we heard for an entire week. Now I know why. <sigh>

[AmerDem]

13. It's so true

Kerry and his campaign at this point have been playing catch up to shrub from the get go. shrub is the incumbent and all focus should be on him. Kerry needs a major, major shake up within his ranks as soon as possible. Who in the world would have thought that someone with Kerry's credentials and vision would be defending himself against a guy with a negative record like shrub. It boggles the fucking mind!

[moondust]

14. Bullshit.

It wasn't because of Karl Rove and I seriously doubt that it was planned "a week prior to the DNC". It was because they wanted, among other things, a positive convention in the spirit of "America can do better", "Hope is on the way", "Help is on the way", etc., and the positive vibes that John Edwards had much luck with during the primaries. Gutter politics is for lizards.

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. Uhhh....that was the meme for an entire WEEK

prior to the DNC, or weren't you paying attention? Every repuke on every network was repeating that KKKRove meme. We shall see if "America Can Do Better" and "Hope Is On The Way" works. We shall see.

[KharmaTrain]

15. Backdraft, Blowback...It's Coming

When I saw the purple band-aid crap, I got real, real pissed. Then counted to 10 and thought, this isn't such a bad thing. If this made me mad, I know it did the same to a lot of other people...and revealed right from the git-go the mean-spirited side of the GOOP that now runs unchecked.

We're getting a good look inside their hive...and they've created their own "bubble" that is playing as out of touch with many values of "average Americans". I don't know that many people sitting at home watching this fiasco saying "gee I wish I could be there".

People are seeing a religious revival...a TV show...and something that hasn't talked to them about their problems. Has anyone heard a GOOP plan for health care? Instead we get goobidy-gook about Stem cell completely contorted to fit into the abortion debate...this not only alientates women, but the elderly as well. The economy is a similar issue. These morons are talking like we're in a booming economy and everyone got a tax break. This is a major disconnect from those who have been unemployed or changed jobs in recent years, are still unemployed or have seen their lifestyles drastically change under this regime...not counting the "tax cut" they never got. I could go on...

Instead we're getting an angrier and angrier tone. When McCain attacked Moore, that opened the floodgates and the hate has been flowing ever since. We've got two more nights...Crashcart's night then the manchild. The tone of this whorefest has gotten meaner and meaner and if Rove achieves his wish of "firing up the base", we're gonna have a lot of hell to live through for the next couple days, but that uncomfort we feel will be spread wide.

Remember, this is a week where the GOOP gets to send its message unfiltered...and that's not a bad thing. I thought the "no * bashing" rule at the DNC was a brilliant move as we've seen them go personal first and now, as another poster says, when we hit back, we an go for the short-hairs and just say "you guys started it first".

Cheers!

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. The media, the media, the media

is what MOST people see and listen to. The media FAWNS over the GOP and THAT is what the sheeple pay attention to. THE SPIN. Remember the flack Sharpton got from the media for speaking the TRUTH? I do. They went on for days about him. That's not happening with the GOP convention....the media portrays it in a "positive" light and the sheeple see it that way. The people who live on soundbites will make their decisions accordingly.

[Shopaholic]

18. I can remember Judy Woodruff

practically crying, begging the Democrats to promise not to Bush Bash on-air before the Democratic Convention. I sure as hell didn't see her trying to extract a similar promise from the Republicans not to Kerry Bash! Let's face it--we've lost the media. They are as corrupted and as rotten as this current administration. And that's at least 50% of our problem-we can't get the face time that the Repugs do to counter their arguments. But an even bigger problem is our own unwillingness to go for the kill. We just can't seem to overcome our objection to getting down and dirty--and I'm afraid that's the only way we're ever going to win another election.

[KharmaTrain]

27. Step Back A Bit

Yes, the cable news media bends over backwards for the GOOP...but let's put things in a bit of perspective. Faux draws 2% of the Cable TV households tuned in across the country...that means 98% of people are watching something else ON CABLE (not including the "majors", satellite or aren't watching at all). CNNservative draws 1/2 of that audience and MSNBC is still about half of that.

The Daily Show draws as high ratings as O'Reilly and draws an audience that will be voting this year. There's the growing power of the net where you can find tons of websites that are replacing newspapers AND TV as the prime source for news. Now, it's getting the heads-up on the web first, then finding out whose got the best coverage.

Sharpton's remarks weren't in prime time and, while blasted around for a day or two, I doubt few remember what he said and it sure didn't get in the way of Kerry's message. Yes, the media filters this, but they were desperate for a story in Boston...things were going too smooth and they hate when they're being used. The same is going on in New York...and notice how some of the panning has already begun. The Anheiser-Bush twins are gonna be jokes for the rest of the campaign and Bunnypants better hit it out of the park Churchillian style or he's gonna open the flood gates on a lot of questions.

Relax...this week was gonna be hell from the moment Rove chose New York. He didn't just do so to exploit 9/11...but to be right in the wolf's lair...the media's home. A lot of these "journalists" are happy they're working from home (Stewart refered to it last night) and that also is showing in their early reporting. But I can also remember the initial thoughts were the Bushfest in Houston in '92 was a big success, too (Poppy was up on Clinton in the polls at the time, too) until people started hearing pitchfork Pat's remarks back again...and soon things began to turn sour.

Let the media fawn, let the lies be told...don't underestimate who will be at the polls in November and why. 60% of this country still won't bother to show up. This game is now being played on the local level...where the 15-20% that will swing this election live. Look at where these people are and what they're seeing and you'll see the seeds of the GOOP's upcoming ruin in them.

It's easy being a news or political junkie to live cable TV 24/7. It's great. Beats the days when you had to wait til 5:30 to find out if the world blew up or not. But it's also a world unto its own...a small, yes, influential, but still transient world.

[MrBenchley]

20. Not bashing Bush was a good idea....

Look how the chickenhawk bandaids have gone over....

The Democratic convention talked about John Kerry and the Democrats...the Republican convention is all about negativity because they have no vision.

[Armstead]

25. You're damn right, unfortunately

When will the Democrats ever learn? We've fallen for this in the past, and we're falling for it again.

Our side is not up against a mirror image of our best instincts. We're up against a cadre of very tough, very smart and totally pragmatic manipulators.

The GOP can bash Kerry until the cows come home, and they make it seem acceptable. Or they do it so smoothly that no fingerprints can be found. Or, when caught, they frame the subject on their own terms.(i.e. Swiftboats and 527's).

But as soon as Democrats and others on the left say anything critical, the GOP whines about "haters" and "bashing our president." Or the GOP sets up conditions fotr "acceptable" forms of criticism.

It's not because the GOP leadership are crybabies or hypocrites. It's completely fabricated as a strategy. And it is brilliant. Their base buys into it, the media acts as enforcer and megaphone and the perception of "swing voters" is affected just enough to make a fatal difference for us.

And, alas, we buy into it too. The Wellstone funeral was a perfect example. It was an inspiring and ultimately very positive event that (briefly) helped to resurrect the spirit of populist liberalism. But the GOP quickly tarnished that by claiming it violated some obscure rule of political etiquette and taste. And the Democratic leadership played into their hands by APOLOGIZING for it.

They skunked us again this year regarding the convention. They set out the meme about warbing the Democrats not to get into "Bush bashing" at the convention, and we took the bait. Pulled our punches. Some speches were brilliant (i.e. Clinton and Obama), but for the most part there was no red meat served.

Then, after setting this as the frame, the GOP is thowing out tons of Grade A Prime Steak at their convention. They're using so-called moderates to give it a veneer of respectability. But make no mistake, they are going for the jugular on Kerry.

They also do it to us in terms of philosophy. They've managed to make us apologetic for being liberals. They've made a set of totally legitimate, mainstream and logical principles and policies into something Democrats are afraid of acknowledging and defending and using as our political weapon....Meanwhile, the GOP is proudly conservative, while we waffle and wiggle away from what we are.

Our side doesn't have to be as mean-spirited and devious as the GOP. But we do have to be strong and clear and set our own trms for these things. We can't keep letting the GOP and corporate media intimidate us from standing by our own beliefs and telling the truth.

[in_cog_ni_to]

29. And Kerry had Moveon stop running the ad that called the idiot

on his lack of military service. If we can't point THAT out????? Geezus.

[mzmolly]

26. We play into Roves hand over and over again. HE is setting the agenda for

this election. We must counter attack, we must hit Bush on National Security.

[mondo joe]

33. Agreed. A campaign season spent analyzing Kerry's past and character

Agreed. A campaign season spent analyzing Kerry's past and character doesn't advance political dialogue.

[NightOwwl]

35. And like Rove, hit him where he's strong, not weak.

Bush is campaigning on strong and steady leadership. If we concentrate on destroying the publics perception of his leadership qualities, it could do him in.

He decided to go to the school after hearing of the first plane.

He froze for 7 minutes after being told "America is under attack."

He went ahead with the 20 minute photo op when people were jumping out of buildings.

Why not draw up a time-line, comparing his non-actions against things he might have been able to prevent if he had acted immediately after hearing about the 1st plane. He knew about the PDB (or so he says), he should have realized right away something was wrong.

Use clips of him looking stunned with a voice-over talking strong leadership.

It's not like we don't have plenty to work with.

[mondo joe]

36. "George Bush: Inadequate Leadership in Dangerous Times"

You got it - hit him on his alleged strong suits.

I admit it - I want blood.

[NightOwwl]

43. This is exactly the type of sound-bite they need to use.

For some reason, they seem incapable or unwilling to use Bush-bashing sound bites. Hopefully this will change with the new additions to Kerry's staff.

[mzmolly]

46. Great idea!

:hi:

[Southsideirish]

48. 100% true and the most ironic thing is that he did it to us before

and yet we fell for it again.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

31. The Kerry camp and the DNC, and you, and me, knew the RNC would be

a "hate fest" (to use their own words).

The tack they chose was a strategic decision. And Bush WAS attacked, the attacks were mostly "indirect" but obvious (such as in Carter's speech).

Personally I think the DNC was well done. If the conventions were adjacent in time, it only would have underscored how nasty and sleazy the Repub party has become.

So no more handwringing please.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. I don't know if Rove inspired that but I do remember the talking

heads kept saying that the Democrats didn't want their convention a bash bush thing...and they didn't. But apparently the repukes didn't mind bashing Kerry and the Democrats. And some lying repuke woman called into cspan last night after watching the convention and said that all the Democrats did at their convention was bash Bush. I'm like "that lying *itch know damn well she didn't watch the dem convention!"

[John_H]

38. The first time I heard about the "no bush bashing" was a WP pre

convention story sourced by Kerry's strategists.

[gauguin57]

39. Ok ... finger, finger, finger, finger, thumb ... one glove off ...

... finger, finger, finger, finger, thumb ... TWO GLOVES OFF!

[KittyWampus]

40. Incog... I'm Disappointed In You. It Was A GREAT Convention In Boston.

if you think the RNC is going well... you need to reconsider.

[in_cog_ni_to]

41. cryingshame, how the hell ya doin'?

The Dems played right into KKKRove hands. I liked the DNC too, but look at what's happening. The RNC has 4 friggin' days of nothing but bashing Kerry after they GOADED the Democrats NOT to bash the idiot-in-chief at their convention. We'll see how well the RNC ends up doing. It ain't over yet. :( I'm waiting to see the talking heads AFTER the RNC bashfest is over. We'll see just how well it goes over. I HOPE it backfires...the Band Aide thing is and I hope the rest does, but with our media, I doubt that they will pick on the RNC. I REALLY doubt it. I expect to "Feel the love" from the RNC as per the media.

[rullery]

42. I believe that taking the high road is best in the long run.

To all the Bush bashers I would say, let the republicans define themselves as the party of slime, throwing mud at democrats until their arms tire. We see how little of it sticks to John Kerry, a genuine war hero. Also it reminds voters of the mud slinging that was done against John McCain in 2000, and Max Cleland in 2002. The electorate may be a bit slow to pick up on this, being distracted by pursuits other than politics, but eventually they will catch on.

As Lincoln said, "You can fool all of the people some of the time,
and you can fool some of the people all of the time;
but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

We as democrats should be proud that we are the party of compassion, not of stinginess; the party of opportunity rather than of exploitation; the party of the people rather than of greedy profiteers; and the party of peace, wherever possible, rather than of war. We should point out these qualities to the electorate, and let them see how they compare to the qualities of the republicans. I believe that is just what Kerry is doing now, and I support him.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

44. Tonight is bash Kerry night all night, but it could backfire on them

The Dem convention had people looking forward and feeling good while demonstrating Kerry's adequacy and underscoring Bush's inadequacy. The Repub convention has been all fear and all smoke and mirrors and is being portrayed as such...on Nightline last night they were skewered for hiding ther extreme agenda with moderates.

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. I HOPE it backfires.

We need the media in order for that to happen though. :(

[skygazer]

45. Do you really think they're making any valid points?

I know a number of people who were undecided who were impressed by the Dem convention and by some of the speeches which cleared up a lot of the issues they had reservations about.

In contrast, I don't know very many people besides hard line Repugs who are already going to vote for the shrub no matter what who can stomach too much of the hatefest going on now.

I think it was a smart idea - stick to the issues, be above the nastiness and let people decide. This is not the WWF here. I think the majority of Americans want something they can think about. Just because they're loud doesn't make the mad dogs the majority.