At a meeting with some Vietnam Veterans last night......

[Irishladdie]

I had multiple amounts of them tell me that they could never vote for Kerry because he ratted on them. They said that he ratted on them to congress. I could tell that they were very upset about this and didn't know what to say. I have been ratted on for things in my past and I hated it. I think Kerry needs to address this problem and nip it in the butt quickly. This will be the rights next attack on him. Please tell me fellow DU'ers what do I say when a Vietnam vet tells me they felt that Kerry ratted on them. I told them the only thing that I knew that Kerry said he heard stories that he never said he saw them happen. That is still ratting on people. I think Kerry had a lot of courage to do that but I also wasn't the one that had to come back from that war and be called a baby killer. Please how should I address this next time I run into some Vietnam veterans who feel this way?

[truthspeaker]

1. So, what, people shouldn't tell the truth?

Anyway, Kerry was blaming the politicians for putting young men in a situation where such behavior was inevitable, not blaming the soldiers and marines themselves.

[jdj]

42. if this is so, they are fucking idiots.

I don't believe it, unless it was the a meeting of "Vietnam Veterans who live in W.'s Anus" or some such other republican group.

They need to worry about their health care benefits as veterans, and that their kids won't be sent off to die in ANOTHER stupid war.

If they are making this decision based on some stupid esoteric thing like that then they already made their decision long ago, and this is just a convenient excuse. BTW, it wasn't Kerry that told the truth about My Lai, he wasn't there.

[Rambis]

2. Show them the purple heart band aids

At least his isn't mocking their wounds.

[Racenut20]

3. Use this question for vets

Which party do you think will restore the medical benefit cuts that Bush and the Republicans did.

[Liberal Veteran]

4. Ask them how many more would have been left in Nam if Kerry...

...had not told the truth about what was going on? Tell them that the only thing silence would have gained them was a few more sections on the wall as the government would have kept sending good people to die in Vietnam for no good reason.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. Ask them if Stephen Darby is a "rat"

he's the soldier who blew the whistle on Abu Ghraib.
IMHO they are full of shit.

[Nashyra]

34. Did you know that Garby is in protective custody?

My husband who is a vet tries to let them know that it has to do with getting the politicians to bring the boys home because they were being put in situations that were basicallly driving them insane. Kerry only reported what he was told and it was to help end the war, not to offend the veterans. The offense right now are by the veterans who opposed Kerry by distorting this issue instead of helping the veterans. I'd like to know how many homeless veterans Oneil has helped.

[kikiek]

6. Yeah right you don't know how to respond. If you have been following

Kerry at all you would know he fought to end the war. He reported atrocities that other vets told him about. He didn't rat on anyone. He fought for Vets health care including mental health care. Without him and the others fighting for them the war would have gone on much longer and vets would have had little support. Time to turn off the asshole liar Savage and start paying attention. The one who isn't supporting the vets is Bush who has cut and continues to cut their benefits. Wake up.

[Irishladdie]

29. I understand what your saying and what Kerry is saying

but were you in Vietnam??Do you know how it felt personally?

[DoYouEverWonder]

7. Did any of them actually ever watch his Senate testimony?

They played it on C-SPAN last week.

Maybe organize a viewing party? Anyone who hates Kerry because of this testimony, should be made to watch it. Then if they still feel the same way fine, but at least they will know what they are talking about.

Just like F9-11, all the people who claim it is full of lies are the ones who have never seen it. The folks who actually do go to see it, know otherwise.

[Dawgs]

DoYouEverWonder , Right on..

I watched that testimony last week and was blown away. Having a veiwing party for Vets would be great. Let them decide. I'm sure many would change their minds.

[Irishladdie]

31. I think your right, I will have a viewing party for my friends.

I will ask them to come over if they would like. I am sure there will be some tears and their will be some saddness, but hopefully it will help heal some wounds. I am having a hard time with this though, that's all I know.

[Ducks In A Row]

37. Let us know how it goes.

[radwriter0555]

25. Covering this up is like turning the other way when a child is abused...

There is PLENTY of documentation on the Winter Soldiers online.. it is really terrifying stuff to read and really nails home the tortures going on in iraq and gitmo right now.

THAT is what everyone is afraid of.

Kerry's book is also online and other than naming names, I don't know why everyone is so upset over OTHER people telling the truth and Kerry telling it also.

Why do people want to cover up CRIMES? If your kid was being abused, would they sit and watch and do nothing? Or if you were beating your wife, would they do nothing? That's what a COWARD does.... a REAL man defends those who can't defend themselves, no matter the consequences.

[DoYouEverWonder]

27. Atrocities were committed

and many Vets have never been able to come to grips, with what they had to do in Vietnam, just to stay alive. My attitude is that under those circumstances, I blame no soldier for doing whatever it took, to keep themselves alive.

However, Kerry never blamed the troops either. He put the blame exactly where it belonged, on Nixon and the top Military Leadership. These folks have done everything in their power, to discredit Kerry, ever since.

Now, we find history repeating itself and once again the people who are to blame for this fiasco, are the same ones who are so viciously attacking John Kerry. Isn't it odd, that most of Kerry's attackers are the people in power, who never served themselves?

[Irishladdie]

30. Yes

Some of them had and some of them had only heard. I told them that Kerry never said he Saw it happen just that others had told him what had happened. I also told them Kerry was trying to save more lives and that Kerry has been all for the veterans since he's been in the senate.

[Burma Jones]

8. Well,

Lt. Calley was a more concrete example of the war crimes that were going on. Kerry was telling a truth that had already been documented.

At the time, anti-war protestors were being beaten and shot dead by people in uniform (police and National Guard) in the USA, so the anti-war side was very angry. While the Anti-war people did hurl some limited abuse at Vietnam Vets, the anti-war protestors did not kill any of them.

If some of the Vietnam Vets want to vote for a wimp that never went to Nam rather than someone that did, then they are probably hopeless Fascist lackeys anyway.

[The Traveler]

9. One of Kerry's concerns

was the effect all that was having on the morale and integrity of the military. He saw it as a result of a breakdown in leadership, the failure of a military and political doctrine incapable of dealing effectively with an insurgency and the expansion of Communism. Tell them that this truth telling was a critical stage in the evolution of that movement that reformed the military and brought it back from the ashes of Vietnam. Tell them that many of verterans and defense professionals see these same problems re-emerging in Iraq. Check out Gen. Tony ("The Godfather") Zinni ... he has many relevant comments on the eerily similar issues of questionable doctrine and leadership. See also David Hackworth, one of the most decorated officers in Army history (served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam) ... who returned from Vietnam expressing similar concerns in a different manner, from a different perspective, and was forced to retire.

[Maine-i-acs]

10. Tell them "The best Commander-in-chief ...

... is the one that has the courage to carry a weapon into war and the wisdom to question the war itself.

Bush has done neither; Kerry has done both.



Ask them if they'd like Bush to draft up a new generation of 18-year-olds to force democracy on the greater middle east at gunpoint.

Plus add the stuff about Bush's VA cuts.

Johnkerry.com has some good tidbits about Kerry's plans for veterans.

[Ruffhowse]

11. Kerry had the courage to tell the truth about Viet Nam-nuff said.

History has proven him right.

[jukes]

12. brick wall

vets are basicly divided into two camps:
those that accept that they were duped & were tools.
those that want to excuse their duplicity by pretending the war was noble.

group 1 are or have become liberals.
group 2 are still being duped & will never accept reality. their sanity depends on it.

don't waste your breath.

[9119495]

13. You ask, "did it happen?" What about Mi Lai (sp?)?

[lonewolf0507]

14. I would tell them this

I would tell them that in life there comes a time when man must decide between truth and what is right and lying and what is wrong. If these gentlemen had nothing to hide, truth will be on their side. If they had something to hide, evil is on their side. In the scheme of life all a man has is his honor. Once his honor is gone, he has nothing. John Kerry told what he knew, did he lie. I think not, he has honor. I for one would not doubt a man who is honorable. It takes a strong man to speak the truth in the face of adversity. Truth always wins in the end.
A man who goes to war and sees atrocities and speaks the truth, is a man of honor. I am a military veteran and John Kerry has my vote. He has demonstrated the value which our Naval Service lives by:
HONOR COURAGE COMMITMENT

[blm]

15. So, they prefer someone who lies, covers up, went AWOL and didn't CARE

that they were being shot at in Vietnam?

They don't WANT someone compelled to tell the truth and help bring their asses HOME from a war that the leadership had known at the time was already lost?

Please explain.

[demnan]

16. Kerry didn't break any confidences

Everyone knew about the atrocities in Vietnam, they were on T.V. every night.

[Skidmore]

17. Ratted??? If they believe they were ratted on then they

were participating in something they KNEW was wrong and wanted to hide. I know someone who just went through 4 years of hell in his place of employment, where as the only person of color, he was harrassed, exposed to hazardous work conditions, given tests others were not, excluded from group meetings, to name of few of the insults he suffered. He had the courage to stand up and say that this is wrong and several people in that place came forward to vouch for his treatment. The larger institution now must remedy and correct this unacceptable situation. If no one steps forward, it does not make the events any less egregious. Those atrociities of the Vietnam war were no less horrific than the ones in this war.

I have always said that those who scream the loudest about Kerry and his role in protesting the war are themselves protesting too much. Not that they necessarily actively participated in the commission of war crimes, but that they may have turned a blind eye or covered for someone else. Owning one's behavior is a tough thing to do. It's a very human response to lash out at a whistleblower and seek to destroy him/her rather than deal with the truth of an accusation. What's that line * is fond of misappropriating? Something about a log in my eye and a splinter in yours?

[cidliz2004]

18. So the person(s) that outed Abu Gahrib are ratfinks to?

THAT is what I would ask them. Then I would think of more things that came out about atrocites in wartime and ask if that also should have been kept quiet. Then I would finish a quote or two from Kerry on how he refused to name names of soldiers and consistently said that this was about the GOVERNMENT'S actions in Vietnam and NOT any ONE's soldiers and that JK wanted to get the soldiers out of Vietnam SOONER rather than LATER.

Emphasizing that Kerry was about HUMAN RIGHTS the American soldiers and the Vietnamese.

Just an idea.

[Malva Zebrina]

19. So supporting a deserter is the better option?

I don't get it. Lies told about Kerry are acceptable because they have the perception he "ratted" on them? Where is the loyalty? To themself or to the despicable AWOL deserter George? To the thousands of vets coming back from Iraq with missing limbs, or blind, or totally psychologically destroyed, or to the families of them all? Or to the five deferrment Cheney who did everything he could to not support the military . Somehow that meme that Kerry ratted on vets has taken hold.

[kikiek]

20. Notice lack of interaction from original poster. I suspect the comment

wasn't sincere. Doesn't appear to be interested in "learning" anything.

[Ducks In A Row]

39. I've seen plenty of comment, like about the viewing party

sounds sincere enough to me.

[liberalnurse]

21. The Vet's position is old news.

Lets get with the real issues. Why in the hell do you insist on keeping this shit alive? Why I ask?

[ezekiel333]

35. An old vet's opinion...

Real issues? Why do we keep it alive? Because of the US Military dead/wounded in Iraq, whose lives and those of their families have been forever changed. Because of the GOP convention delegates, the ones who "Support the Troops" and then piss on our service. Both real issues that the vets are talking about thanks to the efforts of many us here at the DU. Our efforts are silencing the critics of Kerry and have the won support from many local and national vet groups. We keep this "SHIT" alive because we are working to gain the votes that YOU gave up on. We keep this shit alive so we can diffuse the old guard opinion and shift the conversation to how we are going to get the FUCK OUT OF IRAQ AND QUIT KILLING OUR KIDS! And if those changed vet votes help swing it to John Kerry so he can employ a real plan to end this nightmare then our efforts are well worth it. Now I want you to tell me what a real issue is to YOU and what YOU are doing about it? Our is all your energy focused at changing the efforts of those of us here who are effecting real change on what you deem a non-issue?

This is why we keep this "SHIT" alive.
<http://floridapatriots.com/semper_fi.htm>
<http://floridapatriots.com/purpleheartbandaids.htm>

Now move on and go to work on your issues while we tend to our own.
~Gunny C

[liberalnurse]

38. I do agree with the position you site.

I did not feel the original post was about that at all but hinted at the swift-liars....evoking more discussion.

[ezekiel333]

43. SBV

I counted 10 showings of the new SBV ad last night on one channel. Not discussing them does not help motivate other vets to slamming those who spout their lies. The SWBV topic will die when their ads do. Our efforts to talk about the Iraq war will stop when the war does. Of course then we will be fighting to ensure the veterans from that war get their benefits.

[girl gone mad]

22. I haven't heard that from veterans.

Kerry helped save many lives by forcing the government to get out of Vietnam. They should place their anger where it belongs, which is with the men who got us into and kept us in a war that was unwinnable.

[bowens43]

23. ratted on?

Kerry had the courage to come home and tell the truth. It wasn't just him. Thousands of Vets came home and then worked to end the war.

BTW, if they felt they were 'ratted on' then they are admitting that Kerry told the truth. In order to be 'ratted on' one has to have done something that he shouldn't have.

[Bridget Burke]

24. "Irish"laddie--if you ever return to this thread...

Please supply us with some more information on this meeting. What was the name of the group? Where are you located? Why were you there--are you a vet?

Some very good suggestions have been made on this thread. You can find out exactly what Kerry did and said. You can pass the true story on to the vets. But only if you really want to.

[Wapsie B]

28. Hmmmm.......

I don't think he wants to return to this thread.

[cap]

26. kerry was attempting to get the military back to righteousness...

the vets need to face it, there was a lot of babykilling going on in vietnam. Their civilian superiors placed them in morally ambiguous situations by not managing the politics correctly.

The military has lots of good men who fight cleanly. Unfortunately, in Vietnam, many of them were placed in a cesspool where all the choices were bad ones.

One of the reasons we lost the war was we were not fighting a clean honorable war. The vets just can't deny My Lai and associated incidents. They happened all too frequently.

Kerry was trying to get our civilian leadership in Congress to acknowledge the results of their policies.

[leesa]

32. Ratted on them?? How very mature. They commit war crimes and it should

be covered up. Boy, these are some great Americans!

[pretzel4gore]

33. hey, that's how the nazis got germany all riled up

in 1920's 30's and got themselves jobs as the government: they claimed that peaceniks and commies, jews and poodles 'stabbed german military in the back' during 1st world war etc, which was of course nonsense. nevertheless, it worked in that veterans were the main actors in the street riots that brought down the weimar republic.....within 10 years, many of those same vets were dead, in the war, murdered by the ss or in the death camps (even today, few realize the sheer number of non jewish germans who were killed in the camps)
any vietnam vet who complains about kerry, remind them that the 'gulf of tonkin' incident which properly began the war for USA, was a complete fabrication, a conjob that cost 56000 americans life.....

[Cat Atomic]

36. No vet has told me that. They hate the rich boy deserter though.

[ezekiel333]

40. Like this

Bait & switch (The GOP does it all the time):

Ask them: But how can you support W and the GOP when....

We went to war for no reason thanks to the chickenhawks, like Viet Nam.

Bush is a deserter from the Texas Air Guard during Viet Nam.

Cheney had 5 deferments from Viet Nam.

The GOP delegates dishonored all Purple Heart winners.

If you need links for the above talking points just let me know.
~Gunny C

[tibbiit]

41. Just say Whistleblower!

Kerry was a Viet Nam War Whistleblower.
That is it!
tib

[Catherine Vincent]

44. Ratted?

I doubt if Kerry gave names. Besides, if our military hadn't done the atrocities that was reported then Kerry and others wouldn't have informed congress. Those vets you spoke with should get a damn life and stop harping on the past.