What proof do we have that the lies they are telling won't work?

[MikeG]

[BlueEyedSon]

1. If the recent past is any indication,

we're fucked.

[renotyme]

2. bush is tanking in the polls

but the final proof comes november 2nd!

[AP]

22. Yeah. 3% drop in Rasmussen daily tracking polls shows people don't like

what they're seeing from Republicans (or, what they're not seeing, since apparently nobody's really watching). It's the convention and the tiny bit of coverage is basically nastiness. People so it looks like people are punishing Republicans for not giving them anything good. "where's the beef?" as it were.

[Democat]

44. Bush is up by 4% now, your data is pre-convention

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm

Bush is starting to bounce - get ready to get mad.

[sniffa]

3. what proof do we have

that monkeys won't sprout wings?

[MikeG]

5. Don't put that past them.

[Avalux]

4. There's always a line -

a point of no return with this kind of stuff. No one really knows where that line is, however. I think the repugs found it and crossed over it last night. I don't think the lies will work.

[David Dunham]

6. Their lies will work unless we hit back very hard in ads, now!

[MrBenchley]

7. If you don't have faith in your fellow citizens

really, why are you a Democrat?

[pmbryant]

8. Why do you need proof?

There is no such thing. No proof that they won't work; no proof that they will work.

Peter

[eleny]

9. Because previous lies have already been debunked

Given the speed of communications and reserch such as the net and Air America we can debunk and shame them. It's already happening and will continue for the next few months. Besides, Kerry's camp is going on the offensive starting midnight tonight with a Kerry speech. Buck up!

[KittyWampus]

10. My, You're Posting All KINDS Of Helpful Thoughts Today

Oh, why don't YOU prove they WILL.

[MikeG]

13. You're right. *drinks koolaid*. Kerry will kick ass.

[LoZoccolo]

14. You didn't answer the question.

What is the purpose of this fretting?

[MikeG]

24. Kerry will kick ass. Kerry will kick ass.

[demwing]

40. OK Mike, we get the sarcasm.

Now perhaps you could answer the question, if you think you can.

[LoZoccolo]

43. Yeah that's just the fuck what I thought.

Well, if you had anything decent to say I guess it's too bad cuz I'm pushing you off now for failing to serve as anything to us but a racheted-up pain. And I suggest the rest of us do the same. Constructive criticism is welcome (and I gave you every chance to prove its constructiveness), and you passed up the chance in favor of trying to piss all over the place.

[marlakay]

11. Not everything in life is solid

Thats what makes life so exciting is that we have to fight for what we believe in. Think of all the good things in life, if they came easy we would all be like spoiled rich kids.

Believe me on the day Kerry takes office and we throw flowers at his car instead of eggs like they did at Bush's you will have your proof!!

[mmonk]

12. I too worry

I overheard someone today say they were leaning Kerry until last night. You need to remember, the average American out there is not informed and they think all of Islam has declared war on the US and they are all suicide bombers and they are all coming. They know nothing of Neo-cons, "Securing The Rhealm", Valerie Plame, secret prisons or children's prisons, any controversies centering around 9/11, nothing...

[mazzarro]

15. My concern is not with whether the lies will work or not but ...

I have a grieving annoyance with the tepid democratic responses that we have been getting all along since W* was coroneted by the SC gang. The only time there was fire in the belly of democrats was when Howard Dean was leading the charge. Since the DLC advised candidate took over, every response has reverted back to wanting to win the favors of the independents and moderates. Thus we bend over backwards for the reThugs every which way when they make their unsubstantiated allegations and lies. We need not want to be civilized anymore; we need to boldly confront these reThugs, NOW!

[sangh0]

16. The sky is falling!!!

Again

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

21. LOL!!

Boy was that a scary threat

[MikeG]

23. That does it *putting on ignore* Bye now.

[sangh0]

26. Woe is me!!!

How will I ever survive?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

29. Why don't you just put everyone on ignore?

Is your threat of putting someone on ignore supposed to scare someone?

:wtf:

[MikeG]

30. Its not the first time with him. He can be rude.

[sangh0]

48. What is the purpose of this thread?

You were asked this and it's rude to ignore a question

[info being]

17. It is working

I swing-voter at work has just changed from Kerry to Bush after listening to what McCain has to say.

[lancdem]

38. But McCain's speech was the antithesis of Zell's

Conventions always change some minds, at least temporarily. And McCain did not go negative.

[John_H]

18. We have proof they did work . Soon we will have proof that fighting back

with Clinton Brand Pool Cues works even better.

[unfrigginreal]

35. So, when do they start?

The silence today is deafening. All of the chatter today reminds me of the beginning of the swiftboat charges - "Oh, they're shooting themselves in the foot". I didn't believe it then and I'm not convinced that the performances last night didn't nick us again.

[John_H]

39. they cranked it up this week. Any response today would be lost

in the pre-chimp-speech hype. That's why the midnioght speech. It will create a new, and much more effective, cycle of its own, if kerry's press team has laid the groundwork.

[RoyalWickedness]

52. I was just about

to post the same thing. Anything Kerry says or does while Nazipalooza is still going on will be lost in the fray. Combine that with the whole campaign finance thing, and keeping a low profile this week makes sense. If you look at Kerry's campaign history, you will see that he demonstrates a pattern of laying low and finishing strong. Seems to have worked for him so far. I'm just hoping that after today, we will start to see a little more of the "old" John Kerry, ala his interview with the Smearboat Captain on the Dick Cavett show in '71 and his Congressional testimony about Vietnam.

[quinnox]

20. Another downer thread

Ok, I'm convinced. All Bush's lies will win the election in Nov. and there is nothing that can be done about them. I won't bother to vote now since Bush is obviously a shoo-in.

Satisfied now?

Damn, all the doom and gloomers need to get out in the sunshine every once in awhile, it isn't so bad!!

[deutsey]

25. Remain calm.

All is well.

:eyes:

Unfortunately, we underestimate the damage the Rove smear machine can inflict on Kerry at our own peril. However, I think if the Kerry campaign (and all of us) can keep promoting the truth and not sink into inaction and despair, we can prevail.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

27. One of the all time dumbest posts ever on DU.

A one-line thread starter that asks a totally meaningless question.

What proof do we have that some hypothetical future turn of events will happen?

:eyes:

[MikeG]

28. Thank you for that. That should get it locked. Good work.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. WTF? Does your post mean something? What?

:shrug:

[MikeG]

32. Give it a rest. Take a deep breath. Get some fresh air.

I know you're not a bad person.

Step away from the computer.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. Do your comments mean anything? Could you please explain them?

:shrug:

[BillZBubb]

34. My gosh, a literalist!

Before you snap at someone, why don't you just use your head to figure out what his concern was? His question, while not well stated, is important.

Let me restate his question in a way you can understand:

What historical evidence exists to show that negative attacks, like the ones hitting Kerry, backfire on the attacker? Is there any precedent for that?

Why don't you answer that instead of attacking the questioner?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. In fact the original post question is meaningless.

As you clearly understand. Your question is not meaningless. I encourage you to start a thread about it so that it can be discussed in depth.

I'm sorry that in this instance you failed to understand the distinction between attacking the content of a post and attacking a poster.

[BillZBubb]

42. Nice attempted dodge.

The original question was not meaningless. The poster just didn't phrase what he intended clearly. Anyone who honestly wanted to discuss the issue figured it out. It really wasn't that hard.

I would like to know what evidence we have from past elections that show a big negative push didn't work. I can't think of one. Can you?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. Bush the Elder's negative campaign against Clinton in 92 didn't work

Bob Kasten's negative campaign against Russ Feingold didn't work.

Mark Green's negative campaign against Bloomberg didn't work.

Rudy Boschwitz's negative campaign against Paul Wellstone didn't work.

Clayton Williams' negative campaign against Ann Richards didn't work.

Sam Yorty's negative campaign against Tom Bradley didn't work.

Rick Lazio's negative campaign against Hillary Clinton didn't work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=660011

[TheRovingGourmet]

47. Bush the Younger's attacks on Ann Richards did work. Clayton

William's attacks against Ann Richards would have worked had he not proved he was such an asshole right before the election.

[BillZBubb]

53. Presidential elections please!

You cite Bush I/Clinton only. Well Bush's negative campaign worked like a charm. He was a guy with 39% approval who almost managed to pull it out. Clinton had his negatives so high he couldn't come near a majority. He got a small plurality only.

Bush's negative attacks on Clinton drew a lot of blood. But he was fighting from a terribly low starting support level. It would have been difficult to win. Still, without Perot, it's tough to say how that election would have gone.

Bush* is starting with approval numbers nearer 50%. And there is Nader, not Perot.

[deutsey]

37. Thanks for the clarification

I believe it's going to fall on deaf ears, though (not literally deaf, of course). :evilfrown:

[TheRovingGourmet]

50. Negative attacks work really well if properly constructed. I try

to get voters by working some talk shows. It takes a lot of work to prepare for these shows and I learned rather quickly to take the advice of the person that told me about this place (now banned) and not ask for help here dealing with an attack issue. Sad.

[ArkDem]

41. Whenever I start getting too worried I daydream about Duce

Staley having a 2000 yard year.

[Jacobin]

45. Lies work great!!!

It's how we got into the Iraq Quagmire, among other crazy shit.

[MrBenchley]

49. Well, I've got some proof....

Instead of repeating those lies, REPUBLICAN Joe "Intern Killer" Scarborough and REPUBLICAN David Frum (former Bush speechwriter who coined the Axis of E-e-e-e-e-e-evil) are on MSNBC fussing about why Kerry's response to them has been so "weak."

If the lies were working, those two would be banging the drum and chanting them with glee.

That ought to tell you the lies have failed and Kerry's response has been just right.

[markses]

51. You can have "proof" for a contingent future?

Who knew.:eyes:

[bigtree]

54. The Liars

Carl Sandburg (1878–1967). Smoke and Steel. 1922.

A LIAR goes in fine clothes.
A liar goes in rags.
A liar is a liar, clothes or no clothes.
A liar is a liar and lives on the lies he tells and dies in a life of lies.
And the stonecutters earn a living—with lies—on the tombs of liars.

Aliar looks ’em in the eye
And lies to a woman,
Lies to a man, a pal, a child, a fool.
And he is an old liar; we know him many years back.

A liar lies to nations.
A liar lies to the people.
A liar takes the blood of the people
And drinks this blood with a laugh and a lie,
A laugh in his neck,
A lie in his mouth.
And this liar is an old one; we know him many years.
He is straight as a dog’s hind leg.
He is straight as a corkscrew.
He is white as a black cat’s foot at midnight.

The tongue of a man is tied on this,
On the liar who lies to nations,
The liar who lies to the people.
The tongue of a man is tied on this
And ends: To hell with ’em all.
To hell with ’em all.

It’s a song hard as a riveter’s hammer,
Hard as the sleep of a crummy hobo,
Hard as the sleep of a lousy doughboy,
Twisted as a shell-shock idiot’s gibber.

The liars met where the doors were locked.
They said to each other: Now for war.
The liars fixed it and told ’em: Go.

Across their tables they fixed it up,
Behind their doors away from the mob.
And the guns did a job that nicked off millions.
The guns blew seven million off the map,
The guns sent seven million west.
Seven million shoving up the daisies.
Across their tables they fixed it up,
The liars who lie to nations.

And now
Out of the butcher’s job
And the boneyard junk the maggots have cleaned,
Where the jaws of skulls tell the jokes of war ghosts,
Out of this they are calling now: Let’s go back where we were.
Let us run the world again, us, us.

Where the doors are locked the liars say: Wait and we’ll cash in again.

So I hear The People talk.
I hear them tell each other:
Let the strong men be ready.
Let the strong men watch.
Let your wrists be cool and your head clear.
Let the liars get their finish,
The liars and their waiting game, waiting a day again
To open the doors and tell us: War! get out to your war again.

So I hear The People tell each other:
Look at to-day and to-morrow.
Fix this clock that nicks off millions
When The Liars say it’s time.
Take things in your own hands.
To hell with ’em all,
The liars who lie to nations,
The liars who lie to The People.

[MrBenchley]

55. Great poem...thanks!!

Want some proof...look at right wing loony Brent Bozell's CNS politics page....

...bare bones transcripts of the Miller and Cheney speeches...but no STORIES about how exciting, vibrant, and dynamic those speeches were....

BUT the lead story today is about the vicious unfair attacks.....at the Democratic Convention three weeks ago...

http://www.cnsnews.com/Politics.asp