Newsmax.com claims "Navy Challenging Kerry's Medals"

[Romulus]

(sorry if this is a dupe)

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/2/120951.shtml


Thursday, Sept. 2, 2004 12:08 a.m. EDT
Navy Challenging Kerry's Medals

The United States Navy is challenging the authenticity of Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam War medals, in a development that could prove to be the most damaging yet to the embattled Democrat's presidential campaign.

A Navy spokesman is calling Kerry's Silver Star citation with Combat V "incorrect" as it appears on his campaign Web site, explaining in an interview with Chicago Sun-Times reporter Thomas Lipscomb that the Navy has never issued a Combat V at any time for the Silver Star.

The Navy also is questioning the listing on Kerry’s Web site of four bronze campaign stars for his service in Vietnam. The official naval record credits Kerry with just two Vietnam campaigns.
"That is sufficient for the wearing of the Vietnam Service Medal for one campaign bearing one campaign star for the additional campaign — not four," reports Lipscomb in today's New York Sun.

*snip/more*

WTF, over?!

More info:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lips28.html

(Chicago Sun-Times)
Kerry citation a 'total mystery' to ex-Navy chief
August 28, 2004

Former Navy Secretary John Lehman has no idea where a Silver Star citation displayed on Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry's campaign Web site came from, he said Friday. The citation appears over Lehman's signature.

"It is a total mystery to me. I never saw it. I never signed it. I never approved it. And the additional language it contains was not written by me," he said.

The additional language varied from the two previous citations, signed first by Adm. Elmo Zumwalt and then Adm. John Hyland, which themselves differ. The new material added in the Lehman citation reads in part: "By his brave actions, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutenant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself...."

Asked how the citation could have been executed over his signature without his knowledge, Lehman said: "I have no idea. I can only imagine they were signed by an autopen." The autopen is a device often used in the routine execution of executive documents in government.

*snip*

Lehman is a retired Sec. of Nav., so how TF could he be a "Navy spokesman?":eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

1. what-fucking-ever n/t

[Catfight]

2. National Guard challenges Bush honorable discharge.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. If only!

[still_one]

3. look at the source, newsmax???

[lancdem]

4. So they're btiching about what's on the Web site?

Big friggin' deal.

[Dogmudgeon]

5. "A Navy Spokesman"

Who?

The last time I checked, the Navy didn't use anonymous sourcing to break its news to the public.

Such is the unique aroma of the Right-Wing press -- of which NewsMax is an enthusiastic member.

--bkl

[hatrack]

11. Did the "Navy spokesman" have a name?

Gosh, I guess he didn't!

[Dogmudgeon]

34. Musta been an old-school Mormon

Lots of them have first AND last names like "Judge" and "Doctor". So if Mr. and Mrs. Spokesman named their son "Navy", he would be "Navy Spokesman".

Or, Chris Ruddy and the NewSmax team could be lying ...

I wonder what the ghost of William of Ockham would have to say about the situation?

--bkl

[tandot]

6. more lies from the Bush White House

Cowardly AWOL Bush smearing a Vietnam Veteran who was willing to fight, kill, and die for his country.

[Walt Starr]

8. DD214 and DD215 have a couple of errors

Kerry NEVER wore a V on his silver star and he NEVER wore 4 bronze stars on his VSM.

[Romulus]

9. I edited more info into the original post

before it got moved to Camp2004 & subsequently un-editable for clarity.

Anyway, the "Navy Spokesman" in the referenced Chicago Sun-Times article is a retired SECNAV who can't remember signing Kerry's citation 35 year ago.:eyes:

I can't remember signing something from 5 years ago, much less 25 . . .

edited to add:
The New York Sun today apparantly has an article on this, but you can't access the article without a paid online subscription.

Here's what little I got from a search at NYsun.com:

Kerry's Bit of Colored Ribbon - September 2, 2004
... recollections of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that are questioning his military records. He now has to deal with the United States Navy. Mr. Kerry's campaign Web site, which may be viewed at www.johnkerry.com, lists a Silver Star with a Combat V on his DD214. This form ...
http://www.nysun.com/article/1228

[onenote]

15. amazing what these idiots "remember"

My favorite is the swifty doctor who claims to remember treating the wound that gave rise to Kerry's first purple heart. How many soldiers did that guy treat and does he remember every single one of them? Shit, I can't remember the name of the guy who was my doctor 35 years ago...

onenote

[TryingToWarnYou]

38. And that turned out to be a Swift Lie...he is not listed on treatment rec.

Claims that he treated him even though his name isnt on the official records.

Yeahhhh...riiiiiggghhht.

[berry]

24. Retired SECNAV Lehman is maybe one of the 9-11 Commission guys?

If so, he is obnoxiously partisan, and in good touch with the WH, since he was chosen for that panel.

I don't doubt the reporter is slimy, but IMO Lehman would probably be willing to join the swiftliars to help *Bush.

[jmowreader]

30. He's more than just "one" of the 9/11 Commission guys

He's the chairman of the 9/11 commission.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/about/bio_lehman.htm

[berry]

36. Kean and Hamilton are the co-chairs.

But the commission only has 10 members in all, so he's an important part. But he can be a real attack dog when he gets his orders, I think. He was really vicious in some of his questioning in the open hearings I saw on c-span.

One thing that's rather interesting is that he seems not to have been in the regular navy but the reserves. Does this matter? (I don't know anything about the military.) Or maybe it means this is the wrong Lehman? Here's a snip from the link you posted, jmowreader. Just the part about his military-related bio:

"He served 25 years in the naval reserve. Lehman was appointed Secretary of the Navy by President Reagan in 1981 and served until 1987. During his tenure as Secretary of the Navy, Lehman was responsible for building a 600 ship Navy, establishing a strategy of maritime supremacy, and reforming ship and aircraft procurement. He has served as staff member to Henry Kissinger on the National Security Council, as delegate to the Force Reductions Negotiations in Vienna and as deputy director of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency."

On edit: just read your post below--yeah, IF he signed anything, it wasn't when he was Sec'y of the Navy because it's too late. But could he have been in the chain of command in Vietnam, even though he was reserve?

I *know* this is another lie (and they probably don't even care if they get caught because there is never any holding people accountable), but this guy was in a commission that covered up all sorts of stuff about 9-11 (hand-picked by the WH, so we know he's a loyalist). And he was right there in the DOD when all the same neocons we love to hate were there. I never thought to connect him to any of the neocon mess before, or even look very deeply into the 9-11 commish members before. But now I wonder. He could be tight with Rummy or Cheney at least.

[jmowreader]

37. No, it's the same fucking guy

I'm kinda curious about this Naval Reserve shit too.

I know that Army officers who are commissioned through ROTC are considered Army Reserve officers even though they serve on active duty, and they have to apply for a Regular Army commission. Officers accessed through West Point come in as Regular Army. There are advantages and disadvantages to either commission. The disadvantage of being a Reserve officer is that, in case of a Reduction in Force, the Reserve officers will be the first out the door. The disadvantage of being a Regular Army officer is that when an officer wants to get out after his obligated term of service is up he must resign his commission, and they aren't obligated to accept a resignation from a Regular Army officer. (Don't ask about Officer Candidate School grads; whether they're accessed as RA or USAR as I do not know.) I've known full-bird colonels who were Army Reservists.

Because the Navy also has an academy and an ROTC program, I'm thinking they do the same thing in the sea service.

John Chafee was secretary of the Navy in 1969.

[MaineDem]

44. He wasn't the Chair

Just a member.

[jmowreader]

28. Specifically, Reagan's retired SECNAV

Which may explain why he didn't remember signing this.

[Romulus]

39. Unbelievable!!!!

Another Newsmax "scoop" (NOT)

[A_Possum]

10. Lipscomb is desperately attempting to perpetrate a fraud

He's trying to make the claim that mistakes in later paperwork mean Kerry never earned a Silver Star. Unfortunately for him, he's a dingbat.

FACTS: Kerry was awarded the Silver Star at An Thoi in Vietnam shortly after an action that took place on February 28, 1969. The decision to award Kerry the Silver Star was made by Admiral Zumwalt, who at first had put him up for the Navy Cross, but decided that award would take too long to clear with the Navy bureaucracy.

There are a number of witnesses to the medal ceremony in which Zumwalt pinned Kerry with the Silver Star, including Commander George Elliot and Commander Charles Horne, who later said, "We were trying to pay tribute to Kerry and the others for going above and beyond the call of duty. The Silver Star is always a big deal." Tommy Belodeau (deceased) and Mike Madeiros were given Bronze Stars, and Del Sandusky, Fred Short and Gene Thorson were given Navy Commendation Medals with Combat V in the same ceremony at An Thoi.

This is the Silver Star:



This is a photo of Kerry and his crew after the medal ceremony. Kerry wears the star on his uniform, the medal on the right.




The Navy isn't questioning this, anymore than the Air Force is questioning Bush's medals because of Walt's research. This spokesman is just responding to inquiries this smear guy Lipscomb.

[eleny]

12. The stink of Rove is in the house!

[GRClarkesq]

13. Kerry's DD214 lists a Silver Star "with Combat V"

The problem is that the regs do not allow for attaching a Combat V to a Silver Star, but only to other specifically identified medals.

Sounds like someone screwed up way back when because they did not know the regulations.

[jmowreader]

43. Or someone just mistyped the awards block

I figure they had six or seven Yeomen Third Class sitting there typing up DD 214s on typewriters just as fast as their little fingers would go. You are going to make mistakes in that situation.

AFAIK, Kerry never tried wearing the Combat V on his Silver Star--not that it would have changed the award; the Silver Star is only for valor, which is what the V represents.

Let's get this discussion back where it really belongs--Bush's foray into the land of the PX Hero.

[MrBenchley]

14. Wow! You should have seen what they said about Clinton!

It's the Weekly World News for dittoheads.

[annxburns]

16. Old news and its a typo

Big f**king deal.

But I got to tell you that I want political VENGENCE today. I hope Barnes and Kitty Kelley blow Bush's reputation to hell ...

[Jackpine Radical]

17. Holeee Jeebus.

On his DD214 some typist typed Silver Star "with Combat V" when the medal has an implied V for valor. It also lists "Bronze Star with Combat V," which is correct because the Bronze Star is sometimes awarded for exceptional meritorious conduct rather than for valor. It was a FUCKING TYPO.

As to the number of campaign stars on his VN Service Medal, who gives a shit? The campaign stars are awarded for unit actions, not individual merit. I can't imagine anyone deliberately adding campaign stars (which are tiny little brass thinuses on the ribbon) in order to somehow pump up his decorations. It just doesn't compute.

So let's talk about something important. Like Bush forcing his 15 y/o girlfriend to have an abortion.

[saracat]

18. Phoney RW Source.You should delete this!

Newsmax not only rw bur not credible.A story of this type, is not only potentally damaging to Kerry, but demoralising to his supporters!

[Romulus]

21. delete hell!!!

I hadn't seen this latest crap mentioned yet on DU, and we need to know what TF is going on.

Anyway, I traced the referenced sources from the Newsmax article to find out what was at the bottom of this . . .turns out it stemmed from a week-old Chicago Sun-Times article, and today's NY Sun has this as well.

Putting your head in the sand won't help.

[AlCzervik]

22. This has been debunked already

go look at Kerry's site, look at the PDF of the silver star, it was signed by a Navy Admiral that served in that position from 69 to 70.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulus]

29. (deleted to maintain DU civility)

[MrBenchley]

32. Gee, rom....charming as ever....

You and Zell ought to fight a duel....

[WI_DEM]

19. Who Cares what News Max says

If any more of this crap comes out it is time to take the gloves off with Bush on AWOL and wearing medals he didn't earn.

[GRClarkesq]

20. While true the website is parroting the incorrect info from the DD214

nut wow, you caught a navy clerk in a typo. Just fix the website and move on.

[fishface]

23. Sheeet...my DD 214 has an error on it too...so shoot me!

what I want to hear is the Navy investigating all these Swiftidiots who claim all the things THEY claimed on official Navy records when they recommended Kerry for medals and their fitness reports were LIES when they filled them out..

I doubt the Navy is in any way involved unless Bush and his cronies told them too.If he did..that bastard deserves to be impeached. (ok..so he already does....)

[jmowreader]

25. The Newsmax piece is full of shit

This is typical for Newsmax, but it's worse this time.

The Kerry site has always listed the Silver Star by itself and the Bronze Star as "with Combat V device."

Bronze Stars can be awarded either for service or for valor, and are always earned in time of war. Silver Stars are only awarded for valor--so why in HELL would anyone think John Kerry would put a Combat V on one?

That is, unless you're Newsmax and you're speaking to the Fucking Idiot contingent. These fuckwits would put up a piece stating that a Medal of Honor winner was caught putting a Combat V on his MOH.

I swear I'm gonna have a stack of Fucking Idiots Anonymous applications printed up and leave them under the wipers of people with Bush stickers on their cars. They sure need them.

Oh, about John Lehman: no fucking shit he didn't sign Kerry's Silver Star citation. John Lehman was Ronald Reagan's secretary of the Navy--not Richard Nixon's. John Chafee was Secretary of the Navy in 1969.

[arbusto_baboso]

26. So the navy is questioning itself??!?!?!

because honestly, that's what this story is really saying. It is the navy that awarded Kerry his medals in the first place.

Ergo, if there is a problem with the medal issuance, it is the fault of the US Navy.

Next.

(Jeez, before you sound off on shit like this, at least learn enough so you SOUND like you know what you're talking about!)

[Walt Starr]

31. Here's the lowdown

First off, somebody incorrectly entered his Silver Star on his DD214 incorrectly, listing it as being 'WITH COMBAT "V"'. When you see that it is listed directly below his Bronze Star, you can start to understand why the clerical error. Here from line 24 of his DD214:



On his DD215, which is supposed to correct his DD214, they list his Vietnam Service Medal as having four bronze stars:



But if you look at this photograph of John Kerry, he DID NOT WEAR a "V" on his Silver Star and he only wore two bronze star devices on his VSM:



In that picture, he correctly wears the "V" on his bronze star, two gold stars on his Purple Heart, the appropriate palm devices on the Republic of Vietnam citations, and two bronze stars on his VSM.

The saddest thing of all about this nitpicking is that they will run with this bullshit about Kerry's awards, but the press won't mention the FACT that Bush wore a ribbon he did not earn!

[UTUSN]

33. This is MINOR Crap, Clerical Error Crap

It's civilian baiting of civilian ignorance of military technicalities. Heck, most VETS don't know the details of their stuff.

[slappypan]

35. I hear John Kerry wasn't even in the Navy

All those Viet Nam era photos of him in uniform were Photoshopped together by Steven Spielberg ... Drudge said so.

[Ducks In A Row]

40. I heard Kerry doesn't really exist. He's a hologram.

[Minimus]

41. LOL yet again

I have had the best laughs today. I'm so glad I found this site!

[Ducks In A Row]

42. We are a fun lot! :D