Kerry never said he would have gone into Iraq knowing what he knows today

[Feanorcurufinwe]

and it is a Republican-sponsored lie to say that he did. A deception spread by Republicans to divide us, sap our resolve, and trick the uninformed.


Don't let anyone trick YOU into believing this lie.

Make them provide the quote where he supposedly said this --

lo and behold, they won't be able to, because he never said any such thing.

[A_Possum]

1. Wasn't it a staffer who said it?

or did I imagine I read that?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

6. that's not Kerry's position and he's never said it

"To the extent that my own comments have contributed to misunderstanding on this issue. . . . I never should have said the phrase 'in all probability' because that's not Kerry's position and he's never said it," Rubin said in a statement. "That was my mistake."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29593-2004Aug24.html

[A_Possum]

15. Thanks

that's what I remembered reading.

[wurzel]

2. Just look up Common Dreams News center Friday Sept 3, 2004

"Kerry Fails Iraq Test". We just cannot pretend that something that did happen didn't. As there is a considerable silver lining to this. Kerry can put the whys of the war behind him and concentrate on the incompetent way Bush has run it. Which is why I believe Kerry said what he said. But if he takes this track he cannot continue to claim he was "misled".

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Show us the quote - let's see where he said what you claim.

When and where did he supposedly say this? Just type it out for us to see and discuss. Stop pretending that some incapacity is preventing you from typing the quote. The only thing that is preventing you from providing the quote is the fact that IT DOESN'T EXIST.

[DrFunkenstein]

14. Sorry, The Toronto Star Calls Him "Bush Lite" But No Quote

"I believe it's the right authority for a president to have," Kerry now says. Only he would have used that power more "effectively."

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0811-06.htm

That's the only quote. Which is the point of the original post.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. You're right. He said he would have voted to let Bush go into Iraq.

Knowing what he knows today.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. the problem is

that Kerry is so vague about what he does mean that even those of us paying attention don't know what the hell he means. Stop making excuses for his lousy fucking answer and his inability to tell people exactly what he does mean.

He should have simply said NO.

[A_Possum]

7. And then they would have said, Kerry is weak on defending the country

Look, there's no answer that wouldn't get hit on and spun, so quit blaming Kerry for Bush's mistakes in Iraq.

The country gave Bush the support to go to war. BUSH blew it, not Kerry. BUSH created this situation, not Kerry. BUSH is the one who didn't listen to the wiser voices of his advisors, BUSH is the one who had to do the macho cowboy thing and prove what a big man he is, and walked us right into the worst quagmire in the history of the country, and I include Vietnam in that.

You're falling for their tactic by allowing this to point a finger at Kerry, which means the finger isn't pointing at Bush.

[Cheswick2.0]

19. nonsense

they would not have thought that. Whether bush created it or not is not the point. Whether you think Kerry is doing the right thing or not is not the point either.
Kerry may as well campaign for bush if he is going to agree that knowing what he knows he would still have allowed bush that kind of power.

[sangh0]

26. No, the point for some, is to repeat repuke lies

like how Kerry's statement was about something other than IWR, or that Kerry is "vague"

[A_Possum]

28. And piffle

They would have certainly spun it that way, that Kerry would not support the president in defending the country, if he had just said "No."

The whole POINT here is that the president failed the country with the power he was given. Kerry's made that clear in his speech to the American Legion.

But, yeah, I'm done with arguing about this, cause that's precisely what the pugs want, and you can play into their hands if you like, but I'm quite clear myself that Kerry's supposed remark is merely another pug attempt at creating a Catch-22 for those who fall for it.

[Cheswick2.0]

54. who are you?

I don't think I ever read a post of yours before. Where have you been hiding?

I am not playing into the hands of the repugs, you and Kerry are.

[sangh0]

56. You are doing the things repukes do

like making personal attacks (why ask about who A_Possum is? It's irrelevant to the issue) in order to avoid taking responsibility for you statements.

[A_Possum]

86. You must not have been reading this forum much lately!

I figured I'd get dissed for posting too much. ;-)

I've been here since early primaries, as a Graham supporter (no wonder nobody noticed.) Nick was lkinsale but I lost my p-word this summer.

You'll notice that I don't demand your bona fides and insinuate you've been "hiding" just because you disagree with me. It's become quite clear to me that your personal beliefs are clouding your political judgement.

[Mike L]

44. Exactly. We know that Kerry wouldn't have invaded Iraq. But he can't

afford to say that now because the undecideds would buy the Bush/Cheney position that Saddam was still a threat to us (they now argue he was a bad guy who would have re-developed WMD and gotten us sometime). The undecideds are ignorant about world and national affairs. Too bad they decide who will be president.

After the flag waving, "U-S-A" chanting speech Bush gave last night, we can see that it would have been a DISASTER if Kerry had said he would NOT have removed Saddam. Kerry knew what he was doing on this one.

[CWebster]

47. Except that most of the country believes invading Iraq was a

mustake.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

82. Yep, Catch-22...

... where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[nagbacalan]

8. His "answer"--with the Grand Canyon as a backdrop--requires a

claification. Look for Iraq now to take center stage.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wurzel]

11. This will be question one in the debate. It is not a "talking point"

Kerry is again muddying his message.

[sangh0]

12. Yes, it's a talking point

and talking points are often the subject of debate.

Wurzel is once again repeating propoganda

[A_Possum]

13. The debate

Bush: You voted to go into Iraq. You said you would have done the same thing.

Kerry: Are you blaming me for giving you enough rope to hang yourself? You are the president who is responsible for the mess that now exists. I expected you to do a better and wiser job of it.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. Kerry is ALSO responsible for what he does

Giving a maniac a gun to see if he will commit murder is not defensible. People are dead for Kerry's experiment in presidential responsibility?....... That is not a good tact to take.

[sangh0]

27. You are also responsible for what you do

and I dont see where you admit that Kerry's statement was about IWR, or that your statement that Kerry is "vague" mirrors the repuke talking point.

[Cheswick2.0]

33. you are also responsible for what you do

to me it seems like you want Kerry to lose the election. Why is that?
I am talking about the IWR and Kerry is vague. If he weren't we wouldn't even be discussing this would we? If Kerry was so clear the original poster would have felt the need to start this thread.

But even worse that being vague...KERRY IS WRONG.

[sangh0]

37. To you, Kerry seems vague

Just like the repukes.

I'm still waiting for you to either admit or deny that your calling Kerry "vague" is the same thing the repukes are saying.

You won't even DENY it. You just raise another, irrelevant issue, JUST LIKE THE REPUKE DO!!

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

38. Some people will do anything to avoid blaming Bush*

.

[JI7]

42. this is true

remember, kerry voted for going into afghanistan also, but he is critical of how bush dealt with that too. does that make him a flip flopper, vague, undecisive?

i believe it makes him see where that the president is responsible and should be held accountable in how they handle things.

too many times people want to give bush a pass by and blame others.

[seabeyond]

32. works for me apossum

that is how i see it. and him saying would do again, he could even go so far as saying, ya know been thinking about that, i said would automatically but the reality, if i knew what i did now, i would have known bush would fuck it up, so on that count, not the wmd count, i would have to say, nah, wouldnt have done such a bold move like foriegn policy with a president like bush.............bah ha ha ha, i am cracking myself up

[Cheswick2.0]

17. That's ridiculous

The point is that as far as the country is concerned bush did the right thing as far as Kerry is concerned. MORE THAN HALF THE COUNTRY DISAGREES WITH BUSH GOING TO WAR. Why is Kerry backing bush up on this?

So you can get as abusive as you want. But this is why Kerry is dropping in the polls.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JI7]

22. i'm sure it had nothing to do with the Republican convention

and kerry had the same position when he was going up in the polls and leading also.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. no, he started falling in the polls before the convention

and after his assinine answer on the IWR vote.

[JI7]

51. he fell in polls because of the right wing attacks and he couldn't respond

because of the law which prevented him from raising and spending money without limits as the republicans were allowed to do. and even then there was no huge drop in polls.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wurzel]

10. I can give you a typed quote. I thought you wanted a "link"!

Bush challenge to Kerry about Iraq: "Knowing what we know now. I have given my answer. We did the right thing and the world is better for it."

Kerry's response to this specific challenge: "Yes. I would have voted for authority".

Atb htis time we had already invaded Iraq. We knew there were no MWDs. Saddam had nothing to do with 911. There was no Nuclear threat. In fact Saddam was not any kind of threat to us.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wurzel]

21. I am afraid you have come to this a little late.

He asked for a link on another post. Knowing I don't know how to make a link. If you want to know what I am talking about go to the "Common Dreams" article I refenced in a prior post.

[sangh0]

23. You just "quoted out of context"

The OP makes it clear that a link was not required, so keep on arguing your fake point. I'm sure it will do wonders for your credibility

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

72. Wurzel, where'd ya go??

.

[chiburb]

85. Why should he respond?

He's got the "higher post count" folks to carry his water now...

[sangh0]

87. S/he's alerting on posts, so s/he is still reading the thread

so why won't wurzel answer a simple question?

[AuntPatsy]

29. Here ya go, how to make a link....IM dying to see it

Just right click mouse on address above and then hit copy...come back on here, right click again and click paste..then post it, rather simple...Im waiting

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

60. I see that you still approve of lies

Can you point out the post we're the thread starter asked for a link?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

64. Afraid of the truth?

The truth is that opposing Kerry because of things he didn't say is nonsensical.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. So you are admitting it was a lie. Kerry never said what you claimed.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrFunkenstein]

18. Here Is William Saletan Making This Point At Length

http://slate.msn.com/id/2105096

[lukasahero]

35. The most honest analysis

I've seen of Kerry's position on this in print. Thanks for pointing it out.

Of course, he's also right with this line about Edwards: "But this time, somebody who can speak English is sitting next to Kerry". I have no problems with Kerry's manner of speaking and nuance, but this line still made me chuckle because Edward's is a pretty straight talker.

[MoonRiver]

25. So true.

:kick:

[mzmolly]

31. Right. He said he would have given * the authority as he felt it was

needed to press for inspections, we got inspections ... Bush kicked out inspectors, Bush is at fault.

Had Kerry said he would not have voted the same, implies that the fault lies with him and not Bush. I think that's how Kerry is looking at this anyway?

[JohnOneillsMemory]

45. Yup. Here's my letter to the Kerry campaign on how to address the IWR.

THEY ARE USING YOUR AMMO AGAINST THEM BEFORE YOU CAN USE IT!!
THEY ARE CLAIMING THAT YOU DENIED TROOPS BODY ARMOR FOR GAWD'S SAKE, MAN!!

WHERE'S MENTION OF THE BILL KERRY INTRODUCED TO REIMBURSE FAMILIES WHO HAD TO BUY BODY ARMOR FOR THEIR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS IN IRAQ TO SHAME THE PENTAGON INTO SUPPLYING OUR TROOPS WITH THE EQUIPMENT THEY NEEDED??!!?? WHERE??!!

YOU MUST 'GO NEGATIVE' (SIMPLY expose fraud, deceit, crime, incompetence)
TO JUSTIFY CHANGING HORSES
OR IT WON'T MATTER THAT KERRY IS AN ACCEPTABLE CHOICE
TO THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE OUTSIDE THE TV BOX, DANG IT!

Problem: 'Support Our Troops' is being co-opted into 'Support Bush's War'.
Criticism of the White House's personal oil war is characterized as instead attacking
our own children in uniform who are STARTING TO REALIZE they are killing and dying
as corporate security for a private cabal of American industry war lords.

Solution: Having finally created the convention movie
'Kerry is "Jimmy Stewart/Rambo," a nice guy who kills if he has to,
NOW you can BEAT THESE CHICKENHAWKS DOWN SHOWING THEIR
ABUSE OF OUR TROOPS/VETERANS AND KERRY'S DEFENSE OF THEM.
Simple facts.

PROBLEM:
This IWR issue is being weaponized into accusations of flip-flopping
to portray Dems as too flaky to defend the nation.
How to explain Kerry Voting for the Iraq War Resolution yet being critical of the war's 'execution?'

SOLUTION:
SAY THAT GIVING POLICE A GUN TO PROTECT US WITH IS NOT THE SAME AS TELLING THEM TO SHOOT A SUSPECT
... WHO IS STILL BEING SEARCHED FOR WEAPONS HE DOESN'T HAVE.

-Justice IS a complicated process of nuance and sensitivities CALLED RULE OF LAW determining the integrity of our nation and it's leadership in the world and here at home.

THE REPUB UBER-PATRIOT BULLIES ARE FEMINIZING RULE OF LAW BY ATTACKING THE UN AS A SYMBOL OF INEFFECTIVENESS
ALONG WITH "PERMISSION SLIPS."

THE AGE OF MIGHT-MAKES-RIGHT POLITICAL IMPUNITY IS HERE.
(Actually, back from Nuremberg 1936)

KERRY MUST AFFIRM
THE US CONSTITUTION'S BILL OF RIGHTS,
AND
THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS
AS THE
PINNACLES OF
'COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM' copyright 1980 RNC, Inc
-A phrase that sells, a phrase that pays

TO BE DEFENDED AGAINST THEOCRACIES
LIKE THE TALIBAN OR AL-QUEDA OR
THE WHITE HOUSE'S BULLY-PULPIT CRUSADES

TO PORTRAY KERRY AS
THE GOOD GLOBO-COP

TO DISTINGUISH HIM FROM
BUSH'S BAD GLOBO-COP.

-'Shoot first and ask questions later' is vigilantism at best and global lynching at worst.

Even the questionable role of Globo-Cop doesn't mean killing suspects indiscriminately and bombing their civilian populations.

HOW ABOUT THIS BUMPER STICKER: VOTE KERRY: STOP TORTURE
Would it be true?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. He voted for the war and would do so again.

"I'll answer it directly. Yes, I would have voted for the authority. I believe it is the right authority for a president to have but I would have used that authority effectively."

He tries to cover his ass by saying he believes that it is the "right authority for a president to have." But, "a president" was Bush, and that's who he gave the authority to, not some unidentifiable generic president.

[CWebster]

43. Right here:

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/381249%7Ctop%7C08-09-2004::17:46%7Creuters.html

GRAND CANYON, Ariz. (Reuters) - Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry said on Monday he would have voted for the congressional resolution authorizing force against Iraq even if he had known then no weapons of mass destruction would be found.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. See? No quote from Kerry saying that, just deceptive corporate media spin

BTW, this is the post you pretended to respond to:

Kerry never said he would have gone into Iraq knowing what he knows today and it is a Republican-sponsored lie to say that he did. A deception spread by Republicans to divide us, sap our resolve, and trick the uninformed.


Don't let anyone trick YOU into believing this lie.

Make them provide the quote where he supposedly said this --

lo and behold, they won't be able to, because he never said any such thing.

And, lo and behold, you have provided no such quote.

[AuntPatsy]

49. I hear that, I am still waiting for this link to that particular

quote...

[sangh0]

50. Many "progressives" like to repeat Repuke Talking Points

supposedly, it's the "right" thing to do.

[CWebster]

58. Hmmm

So I suppose that you are arbitrarily deciding what reported quotes are a lie?

I have heard Kerry encouraged to confront the smears put forth by the Repugs, but funny thing, I haven't heard any rebuttal on this.

Your denial and inability to see where Kerry is vulnerable only hurts Kerry

[Feanorcurufinwe]

66. Anyone reading this can clearly see you provided no such quote.

Why pretend? Who do you think you are fooling?

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

73. Kerry is quoted in the link.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

79. Yeah --- SAYING SOMETHING ELSE

lol

Kerry never said he would have gone into Iraq knowing what he knows today -- and he certainly does not say so in the link you provided.

[chiburb]

77. "Your denial and inability to see where Kerry is vulnerable only hurts Ker

Any more than you posting these cuties?:

"Kerry is a pathetic loser"
"There is still work to do with a Bush-lite presidential hopeful."

Or saying that because you're in PA, you'll PROBABLY vote for Kerry? But that like many people you'll be holding your nose if you do?

My 2 cents: I'd rather Kerry forfeit your vote than see you keep posting RW talking points in every thread.

[Larkspur]

53. Can you provide a quote where Kerry says that the Iraq War is morally

wrong?

As long as Kerry doesn't say that the Iraq war is morally wrong, he supports the war. Saying "I'd give the President authority to make the decision on when to go to war" is an abdication of Congressional authority, and saying that he would have managed the war better is agreeing with the war, which was based on lies and helping Israel's ambitions in the Middle East.

[sangh0]

55. Looking for "moral clarity"?

So are the repukes.

[Larkspur]

59. So do did Mahatma Gandhi, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., and other

non-violent protestors to tyranny and war.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CWebster]

65. Yes, well I guess they stood for nothing?

semantic word games, which as is the typical sangha trend has never won you any support.

[sangh0]

67. According to you, they stand for nothing

Can you please provide a quote by Gandhi or MLK Jr where they say they are looking for moral clarity?

[Larkspur]

83. Gandhi quotes on Moral Force/Morality

http://www.indiaspace.com/quotes.htm#MORALITY

Moral results can only be produced by moral restraints.

Moral authority is never retained by any attempt to hold on to it. It comes without seeking and is retained without effort.

True morality consists not in following the beaten track, but in finding out the true path for ourselves and in fearlessly following it.

To observe morality is to attain mastery over our minds and our passions.

Performance of duty and observance of morality are convertible.

[sangh0]

84. So you're got NOTHING about "moral clarity"

I see quotes about morality, but nothing about "moral clarity"

[Larkspur]

88. The classic MLK quotes on morality and war...

From MLK's famous speech Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silenc
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.

We must move past indecision to action. We must find new ways to speak for peace in Vietnam and justice throughout the developing world -- a world that borders on our doors. If we do not act we shall surely be dragged down the long dark and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

War is not the answer. Communism will never be defeated by the use of atomic bombs or nuclear weapons. Let us not join those who shout war and, through their misguided passions, urge the United States to relinquish its participation in the United Nations.

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. History is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate.

[sangh0]

89. You've got NOTHING on moral clarity

so, like the repukes, you'll distract with a million irrelevant quotes.

[AuntPatsy]

62. Im really shocked at some of you questioning Kerry on this

How can you compare his views to Bush and company's is absolutley mind boggleing to me? I admit not to being as politicaly active as many of you but really? Even a novice like me can understand what he is trying to say in the face of so many terrified Americans brainwashed into believing that Saddam was just outside our borders planning to drop an atomic bomb full of mustard gas or whatever that would cover the entire country....

Enough of this, your just back peddling and feeding into the republican bashing game of making Kerry look ineffective and foolish...

Really enough

[sangh0]

63. Don't worry about the reactionary left

Like the Repukes, all they can talk about is "Kerry, Kerry, Kerry"

Hatred is the only thing they have.

[CWebster]

71. Talk about who is adopting Repug-like smears...

[AuntPatsy]

76. Well all I can say is that some are not obviously as

kwoledgeable as they would like us newbees to believe. And the continued spinning of this remark is unnecessary and foolish, yes Bush and company will continue with this line of attack, and so what? Do you expect anything less from them? I don't...

And some of these are the same ones saying get over the SWB thing and move on, well that wont go away from Bushs camp and neither will this issue, fight fire with fire...

Attack, attack and quit back peddling...

I have to go, Im sorry if some feel that I might be blowing smoke, but really read what I wrote and try if you can to understand exactly what I am trying to get across to you...

Our future is too important to ignore even little opinions by such as myself who is obviously not all as political knowledgeable as many of you...

Gotta go...

[sangh0]

80. Everyone understands what you posted

It's very clear. Your self-acclaimed lack of familiarity with politics doesn't show up in your arguments.

However, there are posters whose mission does not allow them appear as if they understand you. That way, they can keep repeating their propoganda, instead of responding to your point.

[CWebster]

68. Oh, so we should understand that rather than opposing the

criminal liars, Kerry should bolster their case?

Really yourself.

[AuntPatsy]

78. Im not your enemy you know, I live in this country too..

bottom line and you know it is Bush has got to Go, the rest we can deal with as it comes to pass....

Im not trying to bash anyone honest..

[sangh0]

81. CWebster knows that

S/he just won't let on to it because then it would have to respond to your point.

[liberalpragmatist]

70. James Rubin Said Kerry "Probably Would Have Gone to War"

That was a hugely controversial statement and attracted tons of attention on DU and the blogosphere.

Unfortunately, neither DU nor the blogosphere picked up on its subsequent retraction in the Washington Post several days ago. Rubin apologized, said he mispoke and said that was never Kerry's position.

[mzmolly]

74. Right, he retracted that statement.

:hi:

Kerry was pissed from what I hear ...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

75. that's not Kerry's position and he's never said it

"To the extent that my own comments have contributed to misunderstanding on this issue. . . . I never should have said the phrase 'in all probability' because that's not Kerry's position and he's never said it," Rubin said in a statement. "That was my mistake."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29593-2004Aug24.html

(I know you mentioned Rubin's belated clarification but I thought it would be helpful to have it right here.)

[Moderator]

90. Locking.....

This has turned into flamebait and multiple
personal attacks. I would like to remind
everyone that DU rules require that all
discussions be conducted in a civil manner.


Thank you.

DU Moderator