Dear DU... please don't take the race baiting... PLEASE IGNORE IT

[Essene]

zomg the republicans did something RACIST today!

zomg the media is doing something RACIST today!

Stop the knee-jerk reactions... relax. :-)

These are ploys... dont bite. USA isn't going to overcome racism this month, folks. Please, stop freaking out about this stuff. Fine, some nuts say obama is muslim. Fine, some magazine wants to stir up dialong about racial superiority. They will say he's born in a foreign land. IGNORE IT.

The point of these are not to have SINCERE dialog about the legitimacy of that non-sense. The entire point is to turn the discussion towards RACE... to get the headlines off the economy, off the real stuff and onto the divisive TRASH. Regardless of what's being said about Obama, the underlying idea is to get people to think about him being... different. DONT TAKE THE BAIT.

Ignore that crud... because this is all the GOP have left.

As far as i am concerned, the bloggers and viral folks on the left need to literally just not ACKNOWLEDGE that nonsense.

[OneGrassRoot]

1. I don't know, Essene.....

You make an excellent point, and at times I feel that way.

At other times, it's been effective with undecideds who weren't aware of (or admitting to) the racism that is so prevalent in this country; they see that it comes down to racism in many, many cases and they're appalled.

For others who ARE racist yet don't want to admit it, when they own up to it (even within themselves), they may just stay home, which is best.

I think it needs to be called out, but I agree we shouldn't allow it to take our focus off the other important issues or lose sight of the goal.

[Essene]

2. Moves attention away from the issues. I'm too cynical to believe racism will be defeated this month

Obama got this far by focusing on the issues.

Look at how his campaign has handled this type of non-sense for 10 months. Occasionally, there's been a small statement denouncing absurdity but he's generally just ignored it and let it bounce off.

Follow his lead on this...

Because thinking we can "win the arguments" on this non-sense is to take the bait and shift the focus from what matters (right now).

[OneGrassRoot]

3. I agree, it certainly won't be defeated in a month. I guess where...

I get fucked up is that I believe it IS a CORE issue underlying so many things in our population.

I hear what you're saying though. :)

[Essene]

4. Follow Obama's campaign approach to this nonsense. Get him elected... then we can talk about race..

[Empowerer]

182. I don't agree

The fact that Obama lets it bounce off of him does not mean that everyone else needs to. The struggle must include varied approaches to achieve the leverage and change that we seek.

For example, in the 1950s and 1960s, the civil rights movement included many different facets. In one area, we had Dr. King and the non-violent movement. In another area, there were the more militant activists who applied pressure in a different way. In another area, we had Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP lawyers who forced change through brilliant legal strategy. And throughout, we had individual men and women who sought change in their own ways, some loudly, some quietly. While they all seemed to work at crossed purposes, in reality, they were all intricately linked and none of their movements could have succeeded without the others. For example, the lawyers' courtroom arguments were made stronger by the judges' knowledge that a grassroots movement was building just outside the doors. Dr. King's quiet message of change owed part of its heft to the fact that the powers-that-be had gotten a glimpse of the alternative and it scared them to death. And those who took to the streets knew that they'd face the wrath of the law but they also knew that some of the most brilliant and committed lawyers in the world had their backs. All these parts worked together using different means toward a common end.

The movement for change is not a monolith and the approach is not and cannot be dictated by how one person or campaign or organization does it. Barack Obama has decided to respond to racism in the way that makes the most sense for him and what he is trying to accomplish. That does not mean that the rest of us must do respond (or not respond) exactly as he has chosen to do. In fact, this would be foolish and self-defeating.

I think it is not only wise, but it is our duty to speak up about these things when we see them. Doing so will make it easier for Obama - and anyone else in his position of being a pioneer - to do what he has to do. We do him and ourselves a great disservice if we remain silent in the face of such ugliness.

Obama has to let these the arrows bounce off of him. But it is our responsibility to intercept as many of these arrows as we can and throw some of them back when necessary.

[billyoc]

5. What exactly do you mean by "ignore" it?

Do you mean an NRO article about white supremacy should go unchallenged?

Is that really what you mean?

[Essene]

9. Don't think for 1 moment that "challenging" this nonsense does anything but shift attention to race

Sorry.

That's ALL they intend to do with this piece. Do not take the bait.

(and i realize this is a touchy subject but dont assume i dont understand racism or am insensitive to it)

[billyoc]

15. Forget about ignoring it. Just get that out of your mind now.

Viral? I will make sure this shit is EBOLA.

[Essene]

19. What do you expect to accomplish? This stuff isn't new. Gonna burn all copies of The Bell Curve?

This is a political campaign... and this is BAIT.

I understand and respect the desire to attack total non-sense like this, but Obama is way ahead in the polls and the entire point of this trash is to bait the headlines to focus attention on race. This is not the time to pretend we're suddenly going to have sincere dialog about The Bell Curve crap.

[Essene]

28. IF this hits the major headlines... THEN you respond to it. Until then, ignore it.

The GOP side is going to keep throwing the nastiest race baiting that they can muster, folks.

Those old enough to remember when "The Bell Curve" stuff was big in the media... nothing in my view was gained in the attempts to "discredit" it. The mere fact that such nonsense pretending to be science was raised to that level of attention was 100% destructive.

I truly believe it's naive to think you can "discredit" such stuff in a sincere discussion, because the PREMISE is assumed by those who are racist and nobody is gonna be swayed either way in the name of science.

This month is not the time to try to defeat racism and racist arguments by frontal confrontation.

Obama got this far by shrugging that non-sense off.

If it hits the headlines, then we call it what it is... race baiting... and move on.

[billyoc]

30. Hey, Methuselah, STFU with your "old enough to remember" horseshit.

Nobody gives a fuck how old you are.

[Essene]

39. This isnt new. We're not going to "discredit" racism hiding behind science by making it a headline

[yardwork]

140. I disagree. Eugenics has been around for over a hundred years.

Educated people ignored it or even embraced it when it reared up at the end of the 19th century, and eventually that led to Nazi Germany. It's coming around again and people need to mock and ridicule it.

Maybe I misunderstand your point. Pointing and laughing is the approach I recommend. Enter into a "serious" conversation about the supposed pros and cons of bigoted points of view? No way. Point and laugh.

[Essene]

185. Then you arent disagreeing with my point.

As you say, this stuff has been around.

Should Obama hold a press conference to discuss the science of eugenics and The Bell Curve?

I'm saying that raises it up for more attention. IF it hit the headlines, then obama can laugh it off. This has been his approach since the start. FOlks oughta learn from it and follow the same approach.

[yardwork]

197. I'm not sure I understand your point. I agree that Obama is wise to let others complain about this.

I disagree that the rest of us should ignore it. I don't intend to stop confronting bigotry when I see it. Nor do I intend to stop talking about it online. I personally believe that shaming bigots is a very effective way to stop them.

[Essene]

204. Im saying to ignore the bait, not to ignore racism.

The important part if that folks are AWARE of how this is bait.

I sincerely don't mind folks addressing it, discussing it (obviously) or whatever... as long as we dont INCREASE the attention it gets more broadly.

Hence i addressed my concerns to "bloggers and viral folks" because the LAST thing we need is folks spamming the internet about how NR is running some article about the science of racial supremacy, etc.

We need to stay on message.

Pick our fights.

[yardwork]

246. Gotcha. That NR article does not deserve any attention, I agree.

Since there is no science that "proves" racial superiority (or even the existence of race), it's a losing argument to even be drawn into the discussion.

If somebody wants to publish an article insisting that the earth is the center of the universe and the sun and stars rotate around the earth, there's no reason to waste time posting rebuttals. The only rational response is pity and moving onto something more constructive. It might be helpful to point out that people used to believe such irrational things, but those days are part of the dark past.

[TexasObserver]

6. Your approach does not work. We stop it by calling it, by making them either back down or look bad.

Our side gains nothing by taking the approach you suggest, and we take hits from the negative impact of sitting back and saying nothing.

It is imperative that we call them on it, loudly, and insistently. By shouting about it, by pointing it out, by calling it what it is, we bring public opinion to bear on our side. We're winning for several reasons, but one of them is this nasty business. When the GOP pulls its racist crap, and we forcefully call them out, shame them, they look bad.

We must counterattack, and anything less is certain failure.

[Essene]

12. It's ironically how Obama is winning. Stop and breathe... he shrugs it off and focuses on issues.

So should we.

This is not the time. Let's not pretend we're going to beat down racist arguments on substance.

I'm calling it racist. Naming it is fine.

But giving it attention is another thing entirely.

[TexasObserver]

21. You are absolutely wrong, and your patronizing comments are pathetic.

Fortunately, Obama doesn't have HIS head up his ass, and he agrees with me.

Your ideas have been discredited, and that's why Obama is not following them.

Get a clue. You're painfully ignorant on politics.

[Essene]

23. Flame away. Show me where Obama has wasted a lot of time on this type of nonsense. Go ahead.

[TexasObserver]

25. If you don't already know by watching the news, my pointing it out to you won't help.

You're clearly incapable of reading or watching the news and understanding them.

You'll continue arguing with every person here, because being this is how you feed your fragile, wounded ego.

[Essene]

35. More insults... but still no evidence of Obama wasting time on this stuff.

[TexasObserver]

45. Right. Everyone on the thread is insulting YOU, instead of the opposite.

You're delusional if you think others are the problem on this thread. There's a reason everyone disagrees with you. You're wrong.

[Essene]

48. 1. Most people on this thread are not flaming

[TexasObserver]

53. That's right, because all the flaming is by YOU.

All of them disagree with you.

But you can't handle the truth, can you?

[Essene]

56. and you called ME delusional? relax... seriously... just relax...

[TexasObserver]

59. Please calm down.

[Essene]

49. 2. You're still flaming, not dealing with the points being made (read the DU rules?)

[TexasObserver]

I'm responding to your inane posts. That's not flaming.

Your OP is flamebait, and that's exactly how you want it.

Today you feed your need to disagree.

[Essene]

57. relax... and when you flame non-stop... admit it and just say "sorry"

i respect the concern and passion.

but stop the insults.

[TexasObserver]

60. Take a deep breath. It's ok.

[Essene]

36. Look. If it hits the HEADLINES, then the Dems must respond. Until then... ignore it.

[billyoc]

7. You forgot the link.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=Y2U5YTJiMzhjNDNhZTcwZGYyZjcyMzQyZWNmNjJjN2E=#more

[Essene]

10. That's just one example of the bait. There's much hate mongering going on... EXPECT MORE

[billyoc]

16. Expect me to attack it more.

[TheZug]

8. No.

If it were just a few fringe elements, I would agree with you.

But you have a man and woman, the Republican nominees for president and vice president, who have no purposefully chosen to exacerbate these tensions.

They are whipping up racism.

That CANNOT be ignored, any more than Hitler's trash could be ignored in pre-Nazi Germany.

[Essene]

17. They are trying to turn the discussion to race...

I dont remember Hitler running for election against a jew who was WAY ahead in the polls, either.

Bad analogy.

[cali]

11. Dear Board Nanny Essene: I'll post what I wish.

Thank you for your concern.

[Essene]

13. And so will i... but thanks for the silly insult. Really improves your argument.

[cali]

14. dear essene. I addressed why calling out this racist shit is important

on the thread I started and in which you had your hysterical little all caps hissyfit. why don't you try addressing it in that thread?

[Essene]

18. I obviously don't care to bump your thread... and more name calling shows your sincerity...

[TexasObserver]

26. Isn't it obvious the reason is she enjoys arguing ad nauseam?

That's why answering sanely in your thread won't work. This is about HER, not the topic. Notice her need to be preachy and argumentative, which she exhibits in almost every post on this thread.

[pecwae]

29. Good post.

[Essene]

34. I notice that all you are doing is insulting... not addressing the points.

[TexasObserver]

41. Apparently you missed the 13 minute viral video Obama put out on the Keating Five.

Why do you think he did that?

He was firing a shot across the bow of the good ship McCain, brushing Grumpy back from negative attacks about Ayers, about HUSSEIN, about Muslim connections, and so on.

Obama has strongly counterattacked any time any opponent uses race. Where has your head been the past 8 months? Not paying attention to Obama, that's for sure.

[Essene]

44. That video focused attention back on the economy. Try it...

[TexasObserver]

47. As I said, and as you ignored, it was an example of Obama firing back at negatives.

Of course, you just want to feel special today, and arguing with strangers is how you do it.

[Essene]

54. Obama stays on message. You're confusing issues if you think that's the same...

I've repeatedly said that IF this hits the headlines, the dems should respond quickly and move on.

Until then, you ignore it.

There's been a lot of non-sense going around about Obama (including back in the primaries, e'hem), and he's done a great job rising above it rather than trying to waste time "discrediting" racism by getting dragged into the nonsense.

[TexasObserver]

58. Obama's team swats down every racist ploy by the RIGHT.

They've been doing it all year. Only you have not seen it.

[Essene]

62. Irony. I vaguely remember back in January when some of us called out Team Clinton for race baiting.

In fact, NOBODY around here documented it more carefully than me.

Instead of pretentiously posturing, address my points and realize that im not arguing to ignore racism.

I'm saying not to take the bait.

[TexasObserver]

65. Please calm down. Everything will be fine. You'll see.

[chascarrillo]

50. Shove your condescending attitude back inside your asshole where it belongs.

[cali]

40. try not calling out other DUers. You know it's against the rules

And no, sorry, I don't argue for argument's sake- at least not most of the time. And the OP called me out for posting a thread. But whatever.

[TexasObserver]

51. delete

never mind

[cali]

55. sorry, I was addressing Essene- not talking about her in the third person

which is what you were doing, tex.

But aren't you sweet to come to Essene's defense.

[Essene]

Im male. I live in harlem. Ive known real racism growing up in small town america.

And all these people flaming me for not understanding racism, for being a coward, for respecting how Obama's handle his campaign... are probably all 20 year old white suburban kids who've never met a KKK member in their life.

I've not only met them... i've been in the back woods of america at night... jumping into huge fights to SAVE one's life.

The cowards are those who refuse to stop and THINK about what im saying.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

89. wow - I hope your detractors read this post!

I wish you had put this in your OP. :) I think it is wise (though admittedly diffiult) to let some of this stuff go, as you say. Why elevate it to a level it doesn't deserve? I greatly respect Obama for not dignifying such dirt with a response. When these right wingers spew their narrow-minded, hateful, ignorant ideas, and the only response is silence, their power will eventually be diminished. At least it is supposed to work that way! They take the low road, team Obama takes the high road, and people will see the difference.

[Essene]

91. They are too busy flaming, being reactionary and entirely missing the point... o.0

[OneGrassRoot]

20. I think everyone agrees it's best for the Obama campaign to stay away from this....

but it doesn't mean we should, though, again, Essene, I do understand your point. There's just a strong difference of opinion between many DUers.

It's kind of like the citizenry criticizing and calling out the war because the troops can't; we need to have their backs.

Our view is that we have the Obama campaign's back on this; calling racism out so they CAN'T distract from the real issues.

Again, a difference of opinion. :)

[Essene]

22. If it hits the major headlines... calling it garbage is fine. Until then, we oughta ignore it.

[Essene]

24. ...and remember The Bell Curve days? this stuff isn't new.

My point is that you just don't give this nonsense more attention and credibility.

[hobbit709]

31. Ignore it and it will go away

Just like this from another thread.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/1008082voter1.html

[Essene]

38. Strawman much? I'm not saying racism will "go away." I'm saying... dont feed the beast.

[hobbit709]

42. Ignoring evil gives it power

Confronting evil and shining the light of day on it will diminish it. Evil hates exposure. Sometimes just the facts work, sometimes you have to shame it, other times you have to ridicule it and sometimes you have to bash the crap out of it. But ignoring it never works.

[Essene]

46. Raising evil (hiding behind science) into headline news is what gives it power

This stuff isn't even worth responding to... UNLESS it hits the headlines.

[hobbit709]

52. Remember that when the jackboots kick in your door.

My mother remembers living under Hitler-another fine racist. My earliest memories are of the Soviet occupation troops in my home town, so don't expect me to ignore racism, fanatic religions of ANY kind, fanatic ideology or other such things.

[Essene]

64. This isnt about "ignoring racism." This is about not raising it up to headline news when baited.

I find it hard to imagine that you can't respect that point.

Should be freak out and make national news out of every KKK rally?

[hobbit709]

66. Then why do you keep using the word "IGNORE"?

And maybe if it was raised up to the headline news level than it can be publicly dealt with.

[Essene]

68. Ignore the BAIT. Should we make tiny KKK rallies into headline news every time?

Folks need to calm down... stay on message. ;-D

[hobbit709]

74. I'm taking your advice

Ignore

[muriel_volestrangler]

101. In this particular case, it seems to be a well-known national publication

so I hardly think that DU talking about it, when we're not as well-known nationally, is going to be what raises it to 'headline news'.

[Essene]

109. i dont disagree...

hence this thread.

[muriel_volestrangler]

120. No, we do disagree

You seem to think that DU talking about what National Review Online says will raise it to 'headline news'. I say that, much as I love DU, we are not as famous nor as read as NRO, and so it will not be our actions that make this national news, if it indeed becomes so.

However, it is a good thing to call out racist spew for what it is, and not to let them put forward their hateful case unchallenged on the web. It will probably help Obama's election to expose the right wing for the racists they are, because the majority of people aren't racist these days, but we need to make sure they can't put forward racist ideas as if they are 'normal conversation'. It's not just a question of the election - it's making sure the racists don't gain any ground, anywhere, at any time.

[Essene]

126. I'm making a post about this stuff on DU, as well... go figure.

AND... im calling it bait. I'm framing it on MY terms. How's that?

The point is not to get baited into this discussion and not to stir it into a BIGGER frenzy.

Folks are taking the point too literally (when they arent busy flaming me for stating a fairly reasonable point of view).

As i said... if it hits the headlines... folks need to challenge it.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Essene]

33. flame away. But what i'm saying is a lot better to fight racism... but feel free to flame some more

[H2O Man]

32. No thank you.

It is important to confront racism, sexism, and all of the related "-isms" that threaten to infect our society.

[Essene]

43. "Confronting" this race baiting hiding behind sience... is 100% nonconstructive

I understand a lot of folks feel like we HAVE to go out there and confront every stupid thing out there, especially another Bell Curve type of argument in a major magazine.

However... let me be blunt.

THERE IS NOTHING GAINED in confronting racism hiding behind science, in the mainstream media.

NO minds will be changed and all it does is turn the discussion to race at a time when we need Obama's campaign to be 100% focused on the economy, on foreign policy, etc.

The GOP will be desperately trying to bait the media into focusing on the "born in kenya" stuff, the "terrorist ties" stuff, the "racist church" stuff, the "doesnt love america" stuff, etc.

Obama is WAY ahead right now. Getting reactionary is not the right move...

[H2O Man]

75. I respectfully disagree.

Racism, sexism, and all of those related "-isms" are a cancer on the social fabric, that threatens human beings. And, as the responses on this thread indicate, many progressive and liberal democrats understand and appreciate that we have a unique ability, at the grass roots level, to serve as the conscience of our society. I believe it is our obligation.

This summer, for example, there was an ugly incident where some young thugs savaged the Jewish Community Center in my area. I spoke out against the hatred involved, and participated in the effort to restore the JCC. To have done any less would have been an act of moral cowardice on my part.

I also wrote an OP on DU about a strange and ugly confrontation I had with a fellow in a local feed store, who was on a rant about "that nigger" Barack Obama. While others were quiet, I engaged this hateful racist. The result was that some of the quiet people spoke up and supported me. To have not spoken up would have been an act of moral cowardice on my part.

Two days ago, I posted an OP about an incident at a local junior varsity girls' soccer game, where one adult male called two 14-year old black girls racial slurs. I linked an article from an area newspaper; in the "readers' discussion," some people said that while the man was wrong, things would be worse for white people if Obama was elected.

One DUer disagreed with my saying that I was taking a stance on the incident. She said, among other nonsense, that this was evidence that I "live in fear." Actually, the opposite is true. Among my activities in the 48 hours since reading about this, I have contacted the head of the regional NAACP, and got her permission to play point on this, with support of the membership; I've contacted both schools involved; contacted the Southern Poverty Law Center, as a member; spoken with the local journalist investigating the incident; and had discussions with the District Attorney's Office.

In the past decade, I've had experience with several similar incidents. In one, the school district took appropriate actions, including pressing charges against an adult who called black high school athletes racial slurs. In the other, the school refused to take action, and the hate festered, and eventually led to a series of violent assaults on students of color at a local high school, at a local college, and an incident where a rifle was used to shoot up a house in a local community.

There are, of course, many things that I would prefer to invest my time in, rather than confronting this type of hatred. But to remain silent would be an act of moral cowardice on my part.

No matter if a hateful person wears a white sheet to disguise their identity, or pretends to be a scientist to disguise their hateful agenda, it is the duty of the progressive and liberal democrats in our society to confront them. Should we remain silent, and live in fear, those cells of hatred will multiply, and threaten the security of the communities we live in.

[Essene]

78. again... im not saying to ignore racism. I'm saying to ignore BAIT that takes Obama off message...

[H2O Man]

81. There is a very real

distinction between what Obama can and should do, and what the grass roots community can and should do -- even though the two are closely related. Those on this thread who disagree with your OP recognize that the Obama campaign (and soon, presidency) provides us with a far better context to respond to those hatreds that infect our society. The Bush-Cheney administration, in comparison, is an example of how the social fabric suffers, when those hatreds we are discussing are not only allowed, but encouraged.

[Essene]

84. Pick your battles, this is about BAIT.

A lot of folks obviously don't see my point about this being bait, and simply think the question is whether to fight racism or not. That's not the question at all.

If the left blogs and democrats in general... freak out and raise attention on some of this stuff, all we are doing is taking the bait and raising this "science" argument back into the mainstream media.

I say "back," because this is the same old 90s "Bell Curve" crud once again.

[H2O Man]

88. I think that everyone

understands your point. I do. But I think they sincerely disagree with you.

[KittyWampus]

96. many liberals on this site would rather be right 100% of the time than win an election

[H2O Man]

98. It is possible

to do both.

[Essene]

107. Fair point. Obama is way ahead. He's on message. Let's stay on it with him...

[dgibby]

131. Well said! Thank you.

[TexasObserver]

61. Amen. And that's exactly how Obama has treated it.

[Essene]

63. there is a difference between confronting racism... and taking bait (which obama doesnt do)

[Coexist]

37. .

[burythehatchet]

67. HELL NO.

[cjsmom44]

70. RE: I cannot

I cannot stand idle, when racism, either covert or overt exists...I cannot...be silent

[Essene]

71. Should we elevate every tiny KKK rally into headline news, too?

In the name of "confronting racism"?

[mscuedawg]

69. I really have to take your words to heart....

and ::cleansing breath in...cleansing breath out:: just let go.

[Essene]

72. hehehe, it's not easy. It's gonna be an ugly month...

[SmokingJacket]

73. I think you're basically right.

There's no point in addressing the "muslin" stuff, because anyone who believes it at this point is out of touch with reality and beyond the reach of common sense. (A lot of Americans are, apparently.)

On the other hand, if there's a specific charge, I do think it needs to be batted down. We can't afford Kerry's tactics at this point.

[Essene]

80. IF this nonsense hits the headlines, Dems oughta confront... and then move back to msg

Obama hasn't gotten this far by wasting a lot of time trying to directly argue that racism is bad, that he's not a terrorist, etc.

[SoonerPride]

76. No. Fight racism EVERY DAMN DAY. To ignore is tacitly to condone.

I reject your approach as appeasement.

[Essene]

77. It's bait... but you killed that "raise the white flag of surrender" strawman...

[political_Dem]

79. No Way. Never.

Racism should never be ignored. Would anyone ask to "ignore" the Holocaust in any capacity?

[Essene]

82. It's bait. You dont "defeat racism" by flailing at every racist comment and nonsense event.

I assure you that those on the other side LOVE to see folks squirm and to poison the well of sane discussion.

[political_Dem]

90. When will be the Appropriate time to discuss racism?

And why isn't discussing racism sane?

Personally, I'm tired of being told by white people when I can or cannot confront racism on their terms. It is reflective of white privilege based on one's uncomfortability.

[Essene]

94. When President Obama brings it back up again, ON HIS TERMS....

[political_Dem]

97. Do you have a clue what people of color endure on a daily basis due to racism?

[Essene]

102. Yes. I live in Harlem. I grew up in small town america. Want to continue making this personal?

Address my point.

The right-wing is trying to bait the media into a nasty frenzy over race issues, because their hope is to alienate obama from a lot of white america in swing states and to also galvanize their more "passionate" base. It's not about the merits of the arguments.

Merely pushing something like a "science discussion over racial differences" into the mainstream media is poison.

We pick our damned battles on our terms... and not freak out over every KKK rally or whatever.

[political_Dem]

106. Racism, especially to people of color, is personal.

What happened during this week, didn't happen at a KKK rally. Two candidates from a nationally recognized political party used racism to stir their adherents while giving stump speeches. This included calls from the crowd for Mr. Obama's death.

A man in Louisiana got arrested over charges that he wanted to keep a Black man out of office by any means necessary.

A man in England was shot because he was wearing an Obama T-Shirt, by yet another person who hated Black people.

The stories go on and on.

I think you don't have a clue how serious this is. If you did, you wouldn't be calling for people to ignore it.

After all, do you want the Secret Service to ignore what's happened in the McCain/Palin crowds due to it being racism?

[Essene]

108. Still telling me i dont understand racism... huh? Didn't get the hint?

First of all, you imply i want the secret service to ignore what's happened.

I WAS THE FIRST PERSON ON DU TO CALL FOR ACTION ON THIS. I ACTUALLY CONTACTED THE WASHINGTON POST ABOUT IT BECAUSE IF THAT REPORTER WITNESSED IT AND HAD A RECORDING THEN THEY HAD AN OBLIGATION TO REPORT IT. Oddly enough, a day later it was reported that the Secret Service were contacted and on top of the issue

What have you done about it?

Secondly, i find it insulting and disgraceful that you're gonna sit there and lecture somebody you dont know about how they dont "understand" racism. You have no clue who i am or what ive dealt with in life. Instead of addressing what im actually saying, you're just attacking me and saying "i dont understand."

Have you been beaten by a cop, racially profiled, and ended up almost dead? I HAVE. I had handcuff scars for almost a year...

Have you been chased down by a pickup truck with a gun hanging above the confederate flag in the rear window, in the middle of rural america? I HAVE.

Have you had close friends actually turn their backs on you because of racial tensions? I HAVE.


Maybe you've experience real racism, too. I dont know... and frankly i dont care, if you cannot address my points without trying to attack my credibility and authenticity. Grow up.

[political_Dem]

111. I'm sorry you've endured horrible experiences. No one should have gone through that.

But it still doesn't give you the right to tell anyone what to do. It also doesn't give you the right to tell others how to discuss certain issues. No matter what you've been through, it still reeks of a condescending nature to tell others what they can or cannot talk about during this election--especially when it is pertinent and relevant to current events.

That point cannot be ignored.

Btw, I thank you for your work in fighting racism. But to ignore it is not something anyone can do right now.

[Essene]

113. They are trying to bait the nation into a frenzy of racialized hysteria

[political_Dem]

116. I disagree.

It should be discussed in all capacities.

After all, it is about time people did confront the bigots in society so that no one has to endure racism and disrespect.

Besides, I'm sure the McCain camp is banking on people calling for others to "ignore it" while they get away with their subtle racism.

[Essene]

119. So, take the bait... turn the national dialog into insincere arguments about race?

That may make SOME folks feel better, but it surely aint gonna stop racism or help Obama.

[political_Dem]

121. That's what you think.

But, I prefer to perceive this entire situation another way.

Sorry.

[Essene]

125. do you remember "The Bell Curve" media frenzy? yes or no?

what good came out of "discrediting" that in the media?

people believe what they want. you're not gonna convince racists to change their views with facts.

this is a presidential election with a black man in the lead.

think about it...

[Pithlet]

127. The very act of discrediting it itself had merit.

That's the good that came of it. Collectively declaring that it isn't science was the good that came of it. It is considered wacko fringe racist material, and don't think that people discrediting it in the media didn't have anything to do with that. If everyone had just decided to ignore it instead, and its promoters allowed to promote it unfettered, it would be more mainstream today.

[Essene]

130. do you remember "The Bell Curve" media frenzy? yes or no?

I keep asking this because i get the feeling those flaming me are all under the impress that you can "discredit" this stuff in the mainstream media... when racists aren't interested in rational discourse on the matter.

[Pithlet]

138. You ask because your method of argument is condescending.

Study of history is entirely pointless if you have no direct memory of what occurred? No. I'm not going to answer your question, because it's irrelevant. If you're that curious, do a search on me. I believe I've disclosed my age at sometime during my participation at DU over the years. That's why you're getting flamed. See, even though I disagree with you, I do think your intentions are good. I don't think you're motivated by racism, or by a desire to see racism discussions quashed. I think you honestly believe that people expressing outrage over dirty racist tactics by the McCain camp will actually make a difference. But, I think you're wrong, because telling people on DU to shut up about it helps no one. In fact, you're accomplishing the opposite of what you wish to do. Nothing inflames a topic on DU more than a good finger wagging post declaring what everyone on DU should do. You've probably managed to make this topic an even bigger deal than it was before.

I think McCain's tactics will unfortunately have an impact no matter what we do. I think Obama's campaign can and will do what they can to dampen its effects. All we can do is support his campaign to the best of our abilities, and trust and hope that what they do is enough. Personally, I think it will be. I've been happy with how the campaign has been handling attacks so far. I believe enough will see this for the desperate last ditch effort it is. People racist enough for this to have an effect were probably already against Obama to begin with.

[Essene]

141. I ask because it's important and it's the best analogy to the situation

I'll take your response and insults as a no.

[Pithlet]

143. Oh, please. Where did I insult you?

I'm not the one insinuating that a person's age has anything to do with their grasp of a situation. But, whatever. Clearly, you aren't interested in any actual discourse here. Have a good day.

[LeftishBrit]

225. If no one had argued against 'The Bell Curve'...

then many people would have just assumed 'well, it looks like a scholarly publication; it must be true!' In fact, such views about race and IQ didn't begin with 'The Bell Curve'. It was just the latest in a long line of attempts to find 'scientific' justification for racism. In fact, some of the earlier attempts were much more successful, and for example helped to fuel the eugenics movement. 'The Bell Curve' had less of an influence on policy, precisely because some people were prepared to point out the flaws in it - and it is badly flawed, not only politically but scientifically!

[Essene]

229. I dont think anybody gave The Bell Curve credit who wasnt already racist.

All it did was poison the national dialog on race relations and increase tensions.

[Pithlet]

235. That's not logical.

If it were only the racists giving it any credit, as you say, then how is pointing that out poisoning the national dialog? If only the racists were buying it, then how did it poison it any further by pointing out that it was crap?

But, see, it wasn't. You're wrong. It didn't "poison" the national dialog. People talked about it, and sometimes that got heated, but the general public consensus arrived at "bunk". It was important that that discussion happened, even if it wasn't always sunshine and rainbows. It won't always be happy talk. But it has to get done. Because sitting on our hands and letting them have complete control of the national dialogue is the cowards way out. Sitting on our hands because the discussion isn't always pretty means no progress. People who can't handle the heat of battle should just stay out. Not tell the rest of us to shut up.

Now, as far as Obama's campaign goes. I think Obama has done an excellent job so far in handling his campaign and handling attacks, which is why he's leading in the polls. That's why I don't think it's necessary to go into threads on progressive message boards and shout in capslock at them to shut up, then starting a whole new thread about it and get everyone riled up. I'm glad the post about that NR article was posted. I hadn't heard about it yet, and I like to know what the enemy is up to. And I don't think it even made a dent in the election. This whole brouhaha is pointless.

[Essene]

239. NOTHING good came from debating The Bell Curve. It's not a sincere "national dialog" on race.

No minds were changed. No eyes were opened. No greater understanding was reached.

Are you suggesting we oughta have yet another "constructive national dialog" about this nonsense?

[Pithlet]

241. You are simply flat out wrong about The Bell Curve.

Your stance on that makes me think your stance on everything else we're talking about is equally distorted. That book, to the mere layperson, would look just like any other book on the subject. There was absolutely nothing that would indicate to the person who'd never heard of the book before, "WARNING! WARNING! This was written by racist kooks bent on using science to further their agenda!" It didn't have any endorsements by the KKK printed on it, or any other symbols of racism on it. It was just a simple, innocent looking science book, one that actually does include lots of real, actual hard science in it. In fact, I do believe race was mentioned in only one or two chapters of the whole thing. And it was being presented as actual, valid evidence by racists to say "Hey! Look, we were right all along! And now we have SCIENCE on our side! Written by actual scientists and everything!"

Now, to the average person, how do you think it would have looked if NO ONE disputed that. They would say "Hmm, it is a science book. Written by actual scientists. Race was only mentioned briefly, so it's not like the authors had an obvious agenda. Maybe these guys DO have a point." And that's the starting point, right there, to all kinds of evil. Had we not said "Hey, wait a minute! NOT science! And here are all the reasons why it's NOT science", and risked that awful, terribly messy discussion you apparently feel needs to be avoided at all costs, then it would still be considered an actual valid science text, and not the debunked paper weight is is now for the most part. That book simply had to be debunked for the crap it was, and taken out of the arsenal of weapons the racists had. You could not be more wrong on this.

[Pithlet]

231. I agree. That was the point I wanted to make, but you did it better.

I was brushed off with a dismissive "How old are you?" response. I wonder if you'll get the same treatment. People can argue about how Obama should handle the attacks in his campaign, but to think the response when the Bell Curve came out was the wrong one is silly. We didn't make progress in society by sitting around and twiddling our thumbs and saying nothing. Ideas like the Bell Curve became crackpot and get dismissed because people have routinely spoken out against them. Progress doesn't happen when people keep quiet.

[LeftishBrit]

227. Agreed!

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. We're not being insincere

we really do think Derbyshire is a racist, and needs to be labelled as such, and his arguments exposed for hateful nonsense. And yes, in its little way, it will help stop racism. And quite possibly help Obama too - the more horrible NRO is shown to be, the better.

[Essene]

124. Mccain's camp openly said they want to change the dialog from economics. They are insincere...

[muriel_volestrangler]

181. This is a right wing publication. Are you saying that the only thing progressives are allowed to do

is treat all non-progressives as part of McCain's campaign, and that we can't say anything at all unless we have the official OK from Obama's campaign? That the only thing in the world we're allowed to do is repeat what the Obama campaign has decided it needs to concentrate on?

Derbyshire has a history of racism, as others have pointed out. He has chosen to express it, again, by saying that wanting to have 'evidence' to justify his racism is a reason for opposing Obama. But you seem willing to give him a pass because he's mentioned the election. He is quite possibly sincere in his racism. He must be fought. There's no armistice in the fight against bigotry.

[Essene]

188. Fight racism on our terms... and right now the focus is on the economy and winning the election

This is not the first... nor the last... time that some a-holes will try to pretend racism is "scientifically" rational.

They are baiting.

I'm saying that we oughta be smarter than that and approach it like Obama has...

[muriel_volestrangler]

196. 'science' is 'our terms'

You seem to think that if no-one had pointed out the holes in the 'Bell Curve' argument, that everyone would have ignored it. That all racists want is to take up people's time with an argument.

That's not the case. Racists, such as Derbyshire, really are racist. The Bell Curve wasn't written to distract a political campaign somewhere; it was written to try to justify racist opinions. If we just throw up our hands and say, very quietly, "whatever you say - I can't argue against what you claim is science", then we lose.

Obama may not be putting out spokespeople on what Derbyshire wrote, or airing TV ads on it; but that's because he's running a presidential campaign against McCain. NRO is writing racist bullshit on the web, and we, as progressives, are writing the reasons why it's BS, also on the web. What we are doing is a proportionate response to it.

[Essene]

198. "playing the race card" is the one single accusation the obama campaign cannot afford.

Period.

You either get that... or you do not.

The Bell Curve is poisoned water. Getting into such debates is 100% nonconstructive. It's pointless even spending energy discrediting such foolishness.

As they say... dont even DIGNIFY it.

[Bluenorthwest]

128. Gee. You live in a neighborhood

so expensive that I could never live there. And that is your CV for telling others how to seek what is theirs to seek?
And sir, you keep making it personal. Anyone who dares disagree is '20 year old white suburban kid'. How prejudiced and arrogant is that, really? And strawmen? The nerve of you to say that! You keep insisting that 'racism won't vanish in a month' as if someone is saying that it will. Strawman. You give false choices, 'ignore racism or elevate it to headlines'...as if those were the only choices.
Sorry. You do your thing. I'll do the right thing. You are wrong, you are both fully understood, and fully contested. My lack of agreement is not due to 'not understanding' it is due to rejecting your thinking.

You could prove me wrong. Offer some examples from life where evil has been defeated by truning a blind eye to it. Show me one time in history where ignoring racism lead to anything but more racism. Show some facts instead of just demanding respect for living in Harlem of 2008, a neighborhood most DUers could not afford to live in.

[Essene]

132. More flames... yet im the one making this personal. Be offended if you must. n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

148. If quoting you is a flame...then so be it

I asked you to share examples of times when ignoring racism solved anything, just one example to prove your theory. When has your methodology worked before?
The rest is stuff you said. You claim expertise due to your address. You claim others are what you say they are, and you don't ask them, you tell them. You are Dr King, everyone else is a kid in a cul-de-sac. These are things you said. You opened that line of questioning. This is a dialouge, and yet you want it to be one way. You say, and others agree.

You have been asked a simple question. Can you show any time in history when 'ignoring' racism lead to anything other than more racism? Make your case if you can. If you can not, well, that is what it is.


Got even one example of your method working? Just one? No?

[Essene]

154. Look at the race baiting from the Clinton Camp this january. Obama shrugged it off.

Look at ALL THE RACE BAITING all year.

Obama takes the high road rather than feeling he has to convince every hate-filled person that they are wrong.

He knows... that's a fruitless path.

You do not elevate hatred & ignorance up to a pedestal and then try to knock it down.

I am not talking about IGNORING RACISM. That's a silly strawman and has nothing to do with what im saying.

[Bluenorthwest]

164. Maybe you picked the wrong headline then

Your post states :
"please don't take the race baiting... PLEASE IGNORE IT".

Now you say you are not talking about ignoring it. Do you see where that might make for confusion? And again, quoting what you yourself said, in this case "ignore it" is not a strawman. You said ignore it. I brought up your residence, because you brought it up, as if living in Harlem was a credential. When you bring elements into the discussion, those elements are now 'on the table'. A point calls for a counter point.

And I disagree that Obama shrugged off the race baiting, he made a long live national speech about it, his campaign and surrogates made many press releases. Obama himself did not call out Bill, but again, here today, I am not Obama. I am a surrogate, just like the ones who went around calling Hillary a monster, an interesting way to shrug something off. They released a list of points seveal pages long. In short, while the candidate let others do the work, and he shrugged it off, WE did not shrug it off, in any way shape or form. It was talked about, it was central to the whole Primary.

Was that your example of how silence prevailed over screaming evil in the past? If so, it fails for being false. The campaign fully confronted those issues and DU was fully on fire about them. Where the hell is the shrug in that?

[Essene]

177. perhaps... but dont blame me for people responding without reading more than the headline =D

And obama HAS ignored race baiting.

Folks keep confusing things.

Obama has spoken often and eloquently on race issues, but he does so on HIS terms.

He doesnt just flail at every KKK rally per se. He picks his battles and articulates a philosophy of unity.


He doesnt ignore racism but he doesn't get baited into nonconstructive poisoned waters.

[ecstatic]

219. I agree nt

[rebel with a cause]

189. Don't blame all the white people.

I'm white and I am right there with you. I am uncomfortable about sitting quietly by while racism is being spewed unchallenged. And trust me when I say that by being white I have probably heard more racist comments than some African Americans have because racist (that don't know my name) feel comfortable sharing their views with my pale white face. Imagine their surprise when I tell them what I think of them and their racist views, and that I am mother to Latino multi-racial children who I think are better than any of them.

[Essene]

191. Agreed. And trying to bash people over the head on "bigotry" gets nowhere, as you know

... and most of the real bigots out there already think:

1. the media is leftist
2. obama is "<insert whatever they say to make them rationalize their hate>"
3. obama is only gonna win "cuz he's black"


Allowing the national dialog to get dragged into a racialized, high tension is only in the GOP's interest.

[rebel with a cause]

195. go take a nap

because I am not going to argue with you, because I don't agree with you. I have a shower to take, a doctor to see, and other fun things like that. bye.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. No-one here is 'squirming' - we want to make the racist squirm

Look, John Derbyshire is already far more well-known than you or I. If you or I expose his racism for the crap that it is, after he's said it on one of the most popular RW websites that there is, we're stopping them using their national exposure for spreading hatred. That's always a good thing.

[Essene]

105. Want to make racists squirm? Ignore them and focus on getting Obama elected by staying on message

The economy.

[AuntPatsy]

83. I humbly disagree, here in Texas it is working, the issues are now being ignored by some

and I for one am a bit shocked....there are a few that have decided to either not vote at all or change from Obama and without giving me a very real honest answer as to why, it was pretty easy to fill in the blank that these people refused to fill in for me..to be honest I am a bit shocked with some of them...


You cannot ignore the very real issue of race being a factor at this point in time...the mcklan base is calling even the sitters on the fence with the very real help of the media....most people are still getting their information from the media and the media is allowing the message of the mcklan camp to get real air time, and those they are attempting to get the message out to are beginning to get it loud and clear...


Do you doubt how many times in the past that people have so easily voted against their own best interests? Its happened before and will happen again...I still believe the majority is not that stupid but if once again they are attempting to steal another election, they are setting up the backdrop once again for it all making it look like they are getting more voters than they are actually getting via the media outlets...

[Essene]

85. Containment of North Korea vs "Axis of Evil" hyper-rhetoric. Which worked?

We're not gonna defeat racism in america in the next couple weeks during THIS election.

It's about picking our battles.

We're being baited. Adding additional attention to tiny KKK rallies, to white supremacy, to scientists rationalizing racism, etc... i assure you this is NOT the way to beat racism and it's certainly not the right battle at this moment.

That doesn't mean not to confront racism in our lives.

If this race baiting becomes national headline news, then the dems must confront it and call it race baiting.

Obama got this far by focusing on the issues and deflecting this crud.

[Zuiderelle]

86. This sounds a lot like how we are being told to ignore gay issues. We shouldn't ignore either.

[Essene]

87. It's BAIT. We must pick our battles... on our terms. Not theirs.

Nobody is arguing to ignore racism or hate mongering.

But bringing added attention to "science" that attempts to rationalize racism... is a really bad strategy.

See the media attention over "The Bell Curve" in the 1990s.

[cali]

92. no, you're just arguing to ignore it within the context of the presidential

contest. That's ceding the bigots and haters way too much territory and giving them far too much latitude.

It's foolish. I take it you did not listen to Joe Biden yesterday.

[Essene]

95. Should we make every tiny KKK rally into headline news? yes or no?

[cali]

100. no, but a national campaign is not "every tiny KKK rally"

that should be obvious and that's why Biden called it out yesterday. That's why Gibbs was on all the morning shows. NR is not a tiny KKK rally. They're a conservative force that's pushing for McCain with ties to his campaign.

[Essene]

104. It's bait & engaging in a national debate about "science" of racial superiority ONLY hurts Obama.

NR or not... you dont elevate this stuff into the mainstream.

This isnt the first time we've seen this nonsense, and anybody old enough to remember "The Bell Curve" drama knows what i'm getting at. You can put up 100000000 scientists all discrediting it, but it doesn't matter. Merely HAVING that discussion derail the message right now... is a disaster.

I'm not saying to ignore racism.

I'm saying not to get pulled into a racialized debate right now. That's ONLY going to hurt Obama.

What Biden and the camp have done is to keep on message... deflecting nonsense, not feeding it.

[dgibby]

134. absofuckinlutely!

[donco6]

114. I agree. Essene is incorrect. n/t

[scheming daemons]

93. Essene is right.... the McCain campaign WANTS America talking about race this final month

We're being suckers if we fall for it.


They want to change the subject from the economy to ANYTHING ELSE.


If the subject is race, the "Bradley Effect", Islam, etc.... the McCain campaign is happy.


65% of this nation is caucasian. The McCain campaign wants a race war.


Obama wins when people forget that he's black... or at least push that fact to the back of their minds... and listen to what he is saying.


During the debates, Obama makes white people forget that he's black. They listen to his ideas and he wins them over.

On the trail, the McCain campaign is doing everything they can to REINTRODUCE F.U.D. (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) back into these people's heads.



We take the bait if we spend the next 26 days talking about racial division in this country. We play into their hands.



Do not let them change the subject. Every discussion.... every discussion... you have with an undecided voter needs to talk about nothing else except the economy.


The full-bore racists are already voting for McCain. The enlightened are already voting for Obama.

The undecideds can be swayed. If the topic of discussion the final 26 days is race, we won't win the undecideds. If it's the economy, we will.


Essene is right.

[Essene]

99. Exactly... this is about BAIT during an election, not whether we "fight racism."

Folks seem to think that elevating stuff like a "scientific" debate over white supremacy into the mainstream media is somehow a victory in fighting racism. Yes... "confronting" this when it's not headline news... is elevating it.

[abburdlen]

110. The problem with the thread is the word 'ignore'

Racism needs to be confronted. period
But we need to confront it on our terms, not theirs.

I agree with the idea of not getting dragged into a shouting match with mob that McCain and Palin are stirring up. It's certainly part of the GOP game plan.
Address the bigotry for what it is, a sad desperate attempt by a failing campaign to hide from the issues and their record.

[Essene]

112. Ignore BAIT... not ignore racism. (pick your battles)

[Tatiana]

115. Racism should be addressed and those espousing racial epithets shamed.

P.S. Are you African-American?

[Essene]

123. Obama is || close to winning the presidency. Getting baited into "science" debates over race... BAD

[Tatiana]

129. I never said Obama himself had to address this. Are you African-American? n/t

[Essene]

133. I respect the point. I'm saying we dont PUSH the NR type stuff... into headlines

And making tons and tons of threads about this nonsense, everybody running around like chickens without heads...

Obama is in the lead because he stays on message and doesn't let this crud distract him.

[Tatiana]

136. You continue to avoid answering my question, so I'm going to conclude that you aren't

African-American. Which means you lack a bit of perspective on where both the Obama campaign and people like myself are coming from.

Believe it or not, we can win a national election AND confront racism.

Oh yeah, and Obama is in the lead because he has effectively, elegantly, and expertly confronted attacks lodged against him.

[Essene]

144. Obama is ahead by staying on message... not by getting dragged into the racialize debates

And i see you've decided to get nasty and just go ahead and call me whitey.

Ironic... (and shows precisely why this reactionary stuff needs to be contained, since obama is in the lead by precisely avoiding this frenzy).

Let's see if you will keep attacking me, getting personal... without even bothering to read the thread first.


btw...

Guess who on DU was documenting IN DETAIL the precise ploys and race baiting by the Clintons and getting flamed for it?

[Tatiana]

152. I think I've been quite civil in my responses to you.

And I have read this entire thread, including your well-meaning, but misguided responses.

I'm not attacking you at all. I'm asking you to look at your perspective and consider the possibility that it isn't necessarily the best one. I think you're operating out of FEAR - fear of losing an election that we are on the verge of winning. That's exactly what the McCain campaign is counting on. That we will all be so afraid to call them out on their dog whistles and racist bullshit, thereby allowing them free reign to smear without rebuttal.

And if you were documenting the race-baiting by the Clintons then you should know that it was just as wrong then as it is now. You should also know that Bill Clinton getting called out in South Carolina is what tipped the primary race definitely in Obama's favor. You should also know, if you documented IN DETAIL that race baiting that Team Obama absolutely confronted those tactics (I dailed into one of those conference calls) along with prominent Democrats (who weren't even surrogates at that time).

But, please, continue...

[Essene]

159. You basically just said "you are white and thus dont get it."

And you obviously didnt read the entire thread, or you wouldnt keep asking that personal question.

You are not remotely addressing what im actually saying.

You're sitting there lecturing me on how racism is important which is entirely missing the point.

Yes, my premise is driven by a FEAR that race baiting will work to derail Obama and to derail the message. That's precisely why i called out the CLINTON CAMP for trying that nasty approach in January.

I'm the guy... who dared tell DU that it was going to turn SC for Obama... and i got flamed here for it. I even went so far to point out that you cant take that stuff back... and that the Clintons were doing irreparable harm.

I got flamed for that.

You can keep insisting i'm saying something i am not... and keep insisting i dont "get it."

Or you can go back... actually read the thread... and apologize... rather than calling me "misguided."

We're being baited into helping to derail what's going on.

[Tatiana]

160. If confronting racist smears in conservative SC turned that state for Obama...

why wouldn't confronting racist smears turn the country for Obama?

Just sayin'...

[Essene]

165. Fair question. I support calling it "race baiting" (obviously) if it hits the national headlines

I figured that was clear.

[Terran]

142. You seem to be reluctant to answer the question

Are you African-American or not?

If not, then I would suggest you are not exactly the best informed on this issue, no matter what you say has happened to you.

Should Obama get into a big fight with McCain directly about racial issues? No. Any idiot can see that.

Should WE ignore what's going on? Why on earth would we do that? We're his surrogates; at this point it's our purpose to expose this crap and let the exposure seep upward into the msm, like we always do. Obama himself, personally, need have nothing to do with it.

I find the idea quite bizarre that we, the netroots/blogosphere/whatever buzzword you want to use to describe us, should ignore these racist incidents.

[Tatiana]

145. DING! DING! DING! We've got a winner here! n/t

[Essene]

146. 1. why do you feel it's relevant? 2. read the thread... cuz im really tired of the personal attacks

...for simply saying that getting baited into nonsense is a mistake.

[Terran]

155. It's relevant because I don't think you understand racism.

I'm white but my partner of 22 years is a black man blessed (or maybe cursed) with cultural hyper-awareness. So I've received quite an education in this area over the course of half my life; and I've seen racism in action directed at him many, many times. So I think I know the deal, and I doubt you'll find many black people at DU who would agree with you that WE should just back off this. I've already said I agree Obama needs to stay above it; in that I agree with you.

I have read the thread. And you'll have to show me where I "attacked" you. But frankly, you're telling us all we should "relax" about racism as if you were an authority on the subject. But trust me, unless you are black yourself, it's unlikely (though not impossible) that you really understand the nature of racism. I can't say I "understand" it, but I guarantee you I know a lot more about it than most white people.

[Essene]

162. For the 3rd time on this thread: I live in harlem. I grew up in small town america...

You claim you can speak for "most black people."

You claim you read the thread, but oddly... you didnt notice me discussing the following:


I've been beaten by cops racially profiling... brought close to death. Had hand-cuff scars for almost a year.

I've been chased in the rural night by pickup trucks with confederate flag and a gun in the back window.

I've been in the woods, jumping into a red neck gang beating of somebody i KNOW whose father is a KKK red neck... and helped save his life (risking my own).

I've had personal relationships broken because of racial tensions.



Pardon me for being a wee bit disgusted... and i ask again... why do you feel it's relevant?

See, where im actually coming from... my "perspective" is not inauthentic... and is based on experience.

[Tatiana]

Are you African-American? Yes? No?

Your evasiveness is strange.

[Essene]

168. wow... you call that response evasive? you obviously arent even reading....

[Tatiana]

170. Ex: "Tatiana, are you African-American, yes or no?"

Yes. I am African-American.

That's a non-evasive answer.

[Essene]

172. why dont you actually read what you respond to before attacking...

it's getting silly.

[SweetieD]

173. Well I'm African American and I grew up in a Rural White Midwest Small Town and I agree with the OP.

Just ignore it. For just three weeks. That is all. Its not about whose right, its about the next 4 years and winning this damn election. Race talk makes most white people uncomfortable. They end up blaming the black person who is the subject of the discussions even if they aren't the ones bringing up the race talk. That's real and thats 2008 and that is not going to change in 3 weeks period.

[Tatiana]

176. Ignoring racist smears is what won Harold Ford a Senate seat in Tennessee, right?

Oh wait. He lost.

Republicans have conditioned many of us to operate from a position of fear.

No one is saying Obama himself has to confront these racists. That's what WE are here for. WE are the backbone of this operation. And if we sit idly by and allow the right wing to slander at will for three weeks, we WILL lose this election.

If you confront the wingnuts, they will back down. Obama himself threw down the gauntlet on ABC and dared McCain to say this shit to his face.

If only the rest of us could follow his example.

[Essene]

180. You dont seem to be paying attention to Obama's campaign. Reacting to BAIT is stupid. S T U P I D

Go after racism... fine.

Call racism and race baiting what it is. Fine.

But for god's sake, don't get baited into fighting on their terms. The DUMBEST thing Obama (or us) could do right now is stir up some intense racial tensions and racialized debate about "the science of racial difference."

[Essene]

179. Exactly. Turning the discussion towards race ONLY hurts obama. SOME of us get that... e'hem.

[Terran]

220. I what?

I never said I speak for "most black people"--where in god's name did you get that quote? I speak only for myself. Misrepresenting what people say doesn't win you any points here.

Yes, I did notice that you said some things about your background, and that you seem to expect people to accept that as evidence that you know what you're talking about. I also notice that when repeatedly asked a straight-forward question that pertains to your credibility, you don't seem to want to answer it in a straightforward manner. WHY CAN'T YOU JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION? Are you African-American or are you not? Saying you grew up in Harlem and had some sort of dramatic redneck encounter does not answer that question. And the question is relevant BECAUSE you have spoken with an air of authority here about racism that borders on being patronizing, and yet you refuse to answer a simple question whose answer might convince some people that maybe you're right.

[Essene]

234. why dont you start by apologizing...

You are the one posturing about racism "with an air of authority."

1. I asked you how my race is relevant, since you didnt want to address the substance of my point but wanted to get personal.

2. You then basically called me "whitey" and pulled out how your boyfriend is black... in the context of saying "you dont understand racism".

3. You then launched into "So I think I know the deal, and I doubt you'll find many black people at DU who would agree with you."

Do you have any clue how obnoxious you were sounding to an african american living in harlem who's actually experienced racism you probably can't personally relate to?

4. You then come back with more nonsense, unable to just apologize for your pretentiousness... still showing that YOU HAVENT READ WHAT IM SAYING... by demanding i "answer the question" and claiming i "grew up in harlem" (more proof that you didnt read a word i've said).

I've had to defend myself for speaking a perfectly reasonable point about race politics in america.

Ask your partner if he thinks the national discourse becoming racialized will hurt obama... and then maybe come back and apologize again. All i am saying is that bloggers and viral email/video types need to not dignify some of this nonsense which is BAIT.

Oh... and ask him if he likes to tell everybody online that he's black. Like you've INSISTED i have to...

[Terran]

244. reponse

I apologize for nothing.

You are the one posturing about racism "with an air of authority."

I'm not posturing about anything. All I've done is state my position in a mostly polite way, which happens to be more or less the opposite of yours. You're the one putting words in other peoples' mouths, which is, IMO, the ultimate in rudeness and deceit.

1. I asked you how my race is relevant, since you didnt want to address the substance of my point but wanted to get personal.

Apparently your race isn't relevant, in your case. I'm being forced to guess, since you still haven't come right out and said it, that you are indeed African-American. I think most people will agree that the race of the speaker is, at a minimum, "relevant" when the speaker is making such broad and rather bizarre statements about racism. Obviously you'll disgaree and that's fine. It's not a "personal" question, it's a question that relates to your ability to credbily state your position. And I believe I have certainly addressed the "substance" of your point, but I'll say it again: you haven't given any rational reason why WE HERE ON THIS FORUM, as opposed to Barack Obama himself, should not discuss and oppose these racist incidents. It defies common sense to believe that what is said on a political forum is going to ruin our chances for winning. I have repeatedly stated that I AGREE that the cadidate himself should avoid these issues. Does that address the substance enough for you? For the third time?

2. You then basically called me "whitey" and pulled out how your boyfriend is black... in the context of saying "you dont understand racism".

More words put in my mouth. I did no such thing, not even remotely. But in the absence of answer to the question posed by me and another poster, I was beginning to assume you were white, yes. Apparently you feel you have some reason to answer that question by telling your life story rather than stating a simple yes or no. Which you still have not done.

And by the way, I find your use of the term "boyfriend" disrespectful, considering I used the term "partner". He's my husband, we've lived together for 22 years.

3. You then launched into "So I think I know the deal, and I doubt you'll find many black people at DU who would agree with you."

Do you have any clue how obnoxious you were sounding to an african american living in harlem who's actually experienced racism you probably can't personally relate to?

I'm sorry you found me obnoxious. I was just trying to explain myself and the fact that I have *somewhat* more experience with and understanding of racism than the average white person. I was trying to NOT appear obnoxious. I was not trying to claim that my knowledge of racism is on the same visceral level as that of virtually any black person, and I never said anything like that.

4. You then come back with more nonsense, unable to just apologize for your pretentiousness... still showing that YOU HAVENT READ WHAT IM SAYING... by demanding i "answer the question" and claiming i "grew up in harlem" (more proof that you didnt read a word i've said).

I read what you wrote. Forgive me if I misquoted you. I don't see anything I wrote that was nonsensical or pretentious.

I've had to defend myself for speaking a perfectly reasonable point about race politics in america.

Apparently your point is not "perfectly reasonable". If it were, there wouldn't be all these people telling you off.

Ask your partner if he thinks the national discourse becoming racialized will hurt obama... and then maybe come back and apologize again. All i am saying is that bloggers and viral email/video types need to not dignify some of this nonsense which is BAIT.

I asked him at lunch. He disagrees rather strongly with your position that people at DU should just shut up about it. He agrees that Obama has no need to go there, even though he thinks it would be satisfying if he did. You see, he's 55 years old and is sick of dealing with racism. At this point he would like to see the right wing crushed and ground into the dirt. That's a quote.

Oh... and ask him if he likes to tell everybody online that he's black. Like you've INSISTED i have to...

When asked, he says "yes", I guarantee you that. He engages in a lot of such discussion online. He doesn't have any strange inhibitions about telling people what he is.

And once again...I'm not apologizing for shit.

[Essene]

166. and for the record... i was the most vocal person on DU calling out Clinton's race baiting.

[muriel_volestrangler]

186. Your argument is inconsistent

By chance, the form of the thread now has, above the post I'm replying to now, this from you:

"Exactly. Turning the discussion towards race ONLY hurts obama. SOME of us get that... e'hem"

So, at one point you're saying that talking about race hurts Obama; at another, you're saying that calling out race baiting was a good thing. Which is it? Or are you saying you were horribly wrong?

[Essene]

190. In january, Camp Clinton was race baiting like crazy... and Obama made 1 tiny response... And?

THE MEDIA WENT APE ABOUT HOW OBAMA WAS "PLAYING THE RACE CARD."

He made a tiny statement about the MLK statement being "unfortunate" and folks went crazy. DEMOCRATS.

These forums and many blogs... were FILLED with folks attacking Obama in precisely the same way you can expect if Obama is foolish enough to get baited again. All the way into the convention, you still had hate filled democrats pretending it was Obama making race into an issue.

It was scary. I'm being honest.

I tried confront the race baiting on these forums, but in the end... what mattered?

BLACK PEOPLE QUIETLY TURNED ON THE CLINTONS AND SWITCHED TO OBAMA...

Yes, switched.

[Tatiana]

203. One tiny response...

Subject: MUST READ: Key S.C. figure takes issue with Clintons

SHUCK AND JIVE

Clinton Supporter Andrew Cuomo, Referring To Obama, Said "You Can't Shuck
And Jive At A Press Conference. All Those Moves You Can Make With The Press
Don't Work When You're In Someone's Living Room." Clinton-supporting New
York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo said the thing that's great about New
Hampshire is that you have to go out and meet people rather than "shuck and
jive" through press conferences there. Cuomo said of New Hampshire on an
Albany radio station: "It's not a TV-crazed race. Frankly, you can't buy
your way into it. You can't shuck and jive at a press conference. All those
moves you can make with the press don't work when you're in someone's living
room."

MARTIN LUTHER KING / LYNDON JOHNSON COMPARISON

Clinton, Criticizing Obama For Promising "False Hope" Said That While MLK
Jr. Spoke On Behalf Of Civil Rights, President Lyndon Johnson Was The One
Who Got Legislation Passed: "It Took A President To Get It Done." Clinton
rejoined the running argument over hope and "false hope" in an interview in
Dover this afternoon, reminding Fox's Major Garrett that while Martin Luther
King Jr. spoke on behalf of civil rights, President Lyndon Johnson was the
one who got the legislation passed. Hillary was asked about Obama's
rejoinder that there's something vaguely un-American about dismissing hopes
as false, and that it doesn't jibe with the careers of figures like John F.
Kennedy and King. "Dr. King's dream began to be realized when President
Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act," Clinton said. "It took a president to
get it done."

Clinton Introducer Said JFK Gave Hope, But Was Assassinated. Clinton
introducer: "If you look back, some people have been comparing one of the
other candidates to JFK and he was a wonderful leader, he gave us a lot of
hope but he was assassinated and Lyndon Baines Johnson actually did all his
work and got the republicans to pass all those measures." 1/7/08] AUDIO ATTACHED

NELSON MANDELA

Bill Clinton Implied Hillary Clinton Is Stronger Than Nelson Mandela. "I
have been blessed in my life to know some of the greatest figures of the
last hundred years. <...> I go to Nelson Mandela's birthday party every year
and we're still very close. <...> But if you said to me, 'You've got one last
job for your country but it's hazardous and you may not get out with life
and limb intact and you have to do it alone except I'll let you take one
other person, and I had to pick one person whom I knew who would never
blink, who would never turn back, who would make great decisions <...> I would
pick Hillary.'"

DRUG USE

Clinton's NH Campaign Chair Raised The Youthful Drug Use Of Obama And Said
It Would "Open The Door To Further Queries On The Matter." Clinton's
Campaign Issued A Statement Distancing Themselves From Shaheen's Comments
And Shaheen Issued A Statement Saying That He "Deeply Regret The
Comments." The Democratic presidential race took on a decidedly nasty and
personal turn, with the New Hampshire co-chair for Clinton, raising the
youthful drug use of Obama. Shaheen said Obama's having been so open -- as
opposed to then-Gov. George W. Bush, who refused to detail his past drug use
during his 2000 presidential campaign -- will "open the door to further
queries on the matter. It'll be, 'When was the last time? Did you ever give
drugs to anyone? Did you sell them to anyone?'" Shaheen said. "There are so
many openings for Republican dirty tricks. It's hard to overcome." By the
end of the day, Clinton campaign spokesman Phil Singer had issued a
statement asserting that "these comments were not authorized or condoned by
the campaign in any way." And Shaheen himself issued a statement: "I deeply
regret the comments I made today and they were not authorized by the
campaign in any way."

Mark Penn, In Trying To Defend His Campaign Over Bill Shaheen's Obama Drug
Use Comments, Used The Word "Cocaine," Drawing A Rebuke From Edwards Adviser
Joe Trippi. Mark Penn, defending the Clinton campaign in light of Bill
Shaheen's comments about Obama's drug use, repeatedly referenced Obama's
cocaine use. Edwards adviser Joe Trippi accused Penn of dropping the word
"cocaine" deliberately. Mark Penn said "Well, I think we have made clear
that the -- the issue related to cocaine use is not something that the
campaign was in any way raising. And I think that has been made clear. I
think this kindergarten thing was a joke after Senator." Joe Trippie
responded and said "I think he just did it again. He just did it again. ...
This guy's been filibustering on this. He just said cocaine again."


FAIRY TALE

Donna Brazile Lashed Into Bill Clinton For Comparing Obama To A "Fairy Tale"
And Said "It's An Insult... As An African-American" And That His Tone And
Words Are "Very Depressing." Donna Brazile lit into Bill Clinton over his
insulting comments of Obama, where he called him a "fairy tale" and said "I
could understand his frustration at this moment. But, look, he shouldn't
take out all his pain on Barack Obama. It's time that they regroup. Figure
out what Hillary needs to do to get her campaign back on track. It sounds
like sour grapes coming from the former commander in chief. Someone that
many Democrats hold in high esteem. For him to go after Obama, using a fairy
tale, calling him as he did last week. It's an insult. And I will tell you,
as an African-American, I find his tone and his words to be very depressing.
... I think his tone, I think calling Barack Obama a kid, he is a United
States senator."


Amaya Smith
South Carolina Press Secretary
Obama for America

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/12/obama-camps-memo-on-clin_n_81205.html

[Essene]

207. An internal state-level memo DRAFT. Your point is?

The obama campaign barely DEFLECTED this stuff, even though they barely said a word.

The news headlines were heavily dominated with "obama plays the race card?" Hillary paraded around with black friends, suggesting it was all a bunch of silly obama politics.

You are right to say "but then why did YOU confront this stuff last january?" I am saying... all i did was get flamed and help stir up a bees nest of racialized nonsense.

Even now... on DU... look how many times folks basically flamed me, called me whitey, etc.

WE CANNOT AFFORD THAT in the obama campaign right now...

[Tatiana]

210. Well you were right then. And anyone criticizing you was wrong.

I'm sorry if you were flamed. But history proves you were right. Obama is our nominee and poised to become the next President of the United States. And he isn't in that position by letting himself be slandered.

He is a smart politician and knows how and when to use surrogates effectively to combat attacks.

Again, I was in on a couple of conference calls and the Obama campaign did emphatically smack down the dog whistling.

[Essene]

218. That's just it tho. I may have been "right" about the race baiting, but i underestimated...

...how calling it out would be reacted to.

I was so angry that i took the bait like many others.

EVEN HERE... on the "democratic underground" we got flamed to a crisp for pointing out the truth.

Obama got shredded in the media for "playing the race card" because of 1 single mild comment about the absurd MLK statement... and cuz of that internal memo. Racialized media discussion will ALWAYS hurt Obama unless it's a stand-alone thing, like his speech on race.

Frankly... and here's the scary part... if South Carolina hadn't been the next state up to bat, Obama may not have won.

I mean... that was the DEMOCRATIC primary. Imagine what happens if Obama gets dragged into this nonsense now.

[muriel_volestrangler]

205. So, you're saying that when you claimed Clinton was race baiting

(which is, itself, an arguable point), the problem was that Obama made any response at all to it. You claim that your personal confrontation of the race baiting you saw was the correct response.

So why do you now tell us that we shouldn't confront racism, or race baiting (as you see it - to be it's simple racism, rather than 'baiting' - I think Derbyshire really believes the crap he writes), when we see it? Why was it OK for you to confront it in January, but not for us now?

Note that I haven't seen anyone on DU calling for Obama to denounce Derbyshire - we're doing the denouncing ourselves. But you are saying that no-one should say anything at all about Derbyshire. You do know there are many right wing forums and blogs that read NRO, don't you? That they repeat stuff they read there as if it's 'authoritative'? And that right wing talk radio reads it too? The RW is quite capable of spreading crap across the country on its own. If we say nothing about it, theirs will be the only voice heard on the subject.

[Essene]

208. when obama confronted the clinton race baiting... the media screamed "race card"! and obama got hurt

Meanwhile... blacks quietly went to the polls and made their opinion clear.

They had previously supported Hillary.

This isnt about whether we "denouce derbyshire." It's about not giving him extra attention or dignifying some nonsense.

[Pithlet]

214. I don't know. Seems the way he handled it worked.

I mean, here he is. Leading in the polls, and all.

[Essene]

223. He got shredded in the media for "playing the race card" & only survived cuz of black mutiny in SC

The Clintons nearly derailed him, in my opinion, because of that disgraceful race baiting.

He took SC because of massive... massive black mutiny from the clinton camp to the obama camp. Clinton's garbage helped Obama there. However, he then proceeded to struggle on super tuesday.

I'm saying... without SC in there with all those blacks turning on clinton like that... obama could have been toast.

Even then... Clinton had successfully made race the big issue, while Obama was trying to downplay it.

We cannot... afford that... now.




(and yes, im one of those people who will never forget what my dear senator clinton did back then)

[Pithlet]

232. Yes. In your opinion.

I think if it were the massive deal you're making of it, he wouldn't be where he is right now. Seems you still have some issues you're working through left over from the primaries. The primaries are over. Obama has a significant lead right now. He didn't get there by not knowing how to handle things like this.

[Essene]

237. What part of what i said do you disagree with? Obama barely got beyond the race baiting in Jan/Feb

You may not see it as a "massive deal" but i sure did... and i kinda get the hunch all the blacks who switched from Clinton to Obama did as well

And you can try to make a cute diss about me "having issues" or whatever, but one thing is clear. I learned something when the Clintons successfully race baited Obama and made race into a huge issue (hurting obama). It seems Obama learned the lesson as well.

We all should.

[Pithlet]

247. It hurt Obama straight into the nomination. He's kicking butt in the polls.

I think that proves exactly the opposite of what you think it does. At any rate, I think you should take a page out of your own lesson book. You probably shouldn't discuss racial issues, because the kind of attention it brings doesn't appear to be all that helpful. I definitely think you should adhere to that. That is one thing I agree with you on.

[FloridaGrl]

117. Calling them what they are isn't taking the bait

it's telling the truth. Fact is fact no matter how we ignore it. As a young African American it's tearing me apart to see these blatant racist attacks. It hurts! I know racism is alive and well but I have never seen it displayed like this.

[Essene]

118. If it puts it into the headlines... it is (which is my point)

[FloridaGrl]

139. The problem is

just ignoring it does not remove it from the headlines. Obama has been trying to talk about the economy but every time on of his surrogates come on the tv, they are bombarded with questions about Ayers and the McCain smears.

[Essene]

149. i'd agree IF it was in the mainstream headlines... and my point is not to push it there

The morons obsessed with ayers and stuff arent going to change their minds.

They already made up their minds and this is just them rationalizing it. Nothing is gained by trying to "discredit it" beyond what's already been done.

As for the new article about "science" of white supremacy, that REALLY needs no extra attention because anybody old enough to remember when "The Bell Curve" got a lot of media attention... knows that nothing constructive comes from that nonsense being treated as even 0.00001% legitimate in the media.

[dgibby]

150. I don't know if you've noticed or not,

but it HAS made it to the headlines. It's been mentioned by almost every MSM venue, but especially by Keith, Rachel, Joe Biden.

I don't see what McCain and Palin are doing as "race baiting". I see it as a "call to arms" to the racists, bigots, far right fringe, the KKK, skinheads,etc. They are blowing the dog whistle, speaking in code to inflame the hate filled among us. What they are doing is very dangerous and places Obama and his family at great risk.

I'm a 62yr old white southener, who grew up during segregation. I have seen firsthand the damage caused when this stuff is ignored. I am very concerned about the effect this is having, especially among the unstable, rabid racists who would do much more that just talk.

Personally, I won't ignore it anymore than I would ignore a call for help, a car wreck, or a house on fire. You, on the other hand, are free to do what you think best; however, God forbid the unthinkable should happen, I wonder which of us will sleep better.

[Essene]

169. i oughta be clear: im mostly talking about this NR thing about "science" of race

Obama's campaign already addressed the ayers stuff, the church stuff and the general topic of race.

I do think we oughta demand answers regarding the hate speech at the palin rallies.

That's why i made a thread calling for action here on DU... and contacted the WPost about their article, saying they were obligated to contact the Secret Service (who somehow did get contacted, for the record).

But that's very different than stirring up the NR story and getting further baited into racializing the debate.

That stuff is not in the headlines (yet).

[treestar]

135. At least for this month

Definitely.

Unbelievably in defense of the racists, but they would not be voting for a Democrat anyway. A white one would be too liberal for them and giving away to much to minorities (in their view, not mine). I don't think Obama being half black makes a difference to them - maybe it horrifies them more that he would be president than it would a white liberal, but to them a librul is a librul wanting to tax their supposedly hard earned $$ to give handouts to the poor who only are poor because the won't work. (Their view, not mine).

It's the white people in the middle that we need to allow to pick Obama over McCrypt without hinting it would be racism not to make that choice. I believe Obama wants it to be a positive choice made out of hope for the future.

[Essene]

151. Exactly. Stay on message... the economy, unity... change...

[yardwork]

137. I disagree. This year people are ashamed to admit they're racist. Calling them out is helping.

McCain and Palin are now holding what are essentially KKK events in public arenas. We absolutely need to call them out on this.

Ignoring the Swift Boat attacks didn't do Kerry any good.

[Essene]

147. Obama WINNING without getting caught up in the race baiting... is the best path.

No single action could stop racism more than staying ON MESSAGE and avoiding the usual nonsense...

We do not have to swing at every stupid thing the right-wing tosses into the air, folks.

[yardwork]

167. Who is "we?" I like the way that Obama and his campaign are handling this.

That doesn't mean that the rest of us - ordinary people - shouldn't point out bigotry when we see it. We are millions of people spread across the nation, in cities and small towns. When my plumber starts to "go there," I absolutely speak out.

I don't think that what we say here on DU matters that much.

[Essene]

174. I'm sayin... we must distinguish "bigotry" from "race baiting." This is baiting...

My experience... is to pick my fights.

I guess everybody else on DU has a lot more experience fighting racism in their personal lives, but as far as i can tell.. Obama's possibly going to be the most successful black politician in our history for a reason, and folks oughta perhaps learn from his lead on this precise message.

He discusses race.

He doesnt "ignore racism."

He deals with it and confronts it ON HIS TERMS. Not just cuz some a-holes in the NR want to bait him into a discussion about the "science of racial superiority."

[yardwork]

202. I'm not sure that I understand your point.

If you are urging people not to be drawn into stupid pointless arguments about the "science of racial superiority," of which there is none, then I agree. We might as well argue about whether or not the earth is the center of the universe.

On the other hand, this is not the way I interpreted your OP. I thought you were saying that we shouldn't point out the bigotry and racism that the McCain-Pail campaign is fomenting. I disagree - we should call it out loudly and strongly object to it.

It's not ok for Sarah Palin to encourage people to yell "kill him" during rallies. It's not ok for Palin to call Obama a terrorist.

[Essene]

236. Oh, you clearly do... you nailed it. n/t

[yardwork]

245. I think that your OP has been misunderstood, in that case.

[Chovexani]

153. How's the view up there from Mount Privilege?

PRO TIP: some of us don't get a choice about ignoring racism.

You might want to look at http://mmcisaac.faculty.asu.edu/emc598ge/Unpacking.html">unpacking that knapsack, it's looking a little full.

[Terran]

158. LOL

Too bad we can't Recommend posts! :thumbsup:

[Essene]

178. Assume more. Please.

[sampsonblk]

156. You mean use the Harold Ford strategy? No thanks

Time to call a spade a spade. I agree that there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. But we have to push back. Its the right thing to do.

[Tatiana]

161. "Harold Ford strategy"

:rofl: Good one.

Not confronting racist smears is why he's Senator Harold Ford, right?

[Essene]

171. You dont raise hate up on a pedestal to knock it down. Obama strategy.

[sampsonblk]

249. I prefer Dr. King's strategy

Turn the spotlight on it, and let everyone see it for what it is.

[stillcool]

157. I absolutely agree..

it is a perception problem. We all know there are racists, but what we choose to focus on grows. If all we talk about is racists, all of the good that is around us disappears. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that there are those among us that live in fear. After all what else is racism, but fear? I choose to hope.

[SweetieD]

163. I agree for the the next 3 weeks we just need to ignore it. This election is too important to risk

giving it to republicans because some independent white voters think Obama is playing the "race card". To many whites, playing the race card is a 1000 times worse than racism itself. Its not right but it is what it is right now. And it is not going to change in 3 weeks. I agree ignore it.

[Essene]

183. Just like when Obama made ONE single statement in Jan and everybody screamed "PLAYING THE RACE CARD"

Including folks on DU... most of whom flamed those brave enough to stand up and call race baiting what it was.

THANK GOD... Obama has gotten this far without being torn down by that nonsense... and i'll be damned if bloggers and viral types want to get reactionary and derail the campaign by screaming "racism" which is absolutely going to be twisted against Obama among iffy independents.

Race discussions (on these terms) ALWAYS will hurt the black candidate in a situation like this. We can posture all we want about "confronting racism" but there's no better way to confront it right now... than to not raise it up for more attention than it deserves.

[Hutzpa]

175. K&R

:kick:

[ProSense]

184. "USA isn't going to overcome racism this month, folks. Please, stop freaking out about this stuff. "

What a silly comment!

[Essene]

193. Obama made 1 single comment about the race baiting from Camp Clinton in january

The Clinton camp was engaged in disgraceful race baiting and Obama slipped into it, calling the MLK comment "unfortunate."

What happened?

THESE FORUMS... the media... pretty much all screamed "playing the race card!!!"

Even though he was being attacked, even though he Clintons were pissing on the black community (which had supported the clintons until that moment)... Obama was the one hurt by it all.

Did Obama freak out? Did black people freak out?

Obama shrugged it off... learned the lesson... and blacks quietly sent a message at the polls.

[ProSense]

200. Are you serious? Did you miss the speech on race Obama gave?

Did you miss the primary?

[Essene]

209. read before you reply?

[ProSense]

213. What? n/t

[nini]

187. No, this shit needs to be thrown back in their faces

If they're not called on all of this it'll continue to be swept under the rug - the country's dirty little secret.

NOT addressing this makes us enablers to that crap.

[Essene]

199. Don't even dignify some of it. All it will do is get them to say "obama is playing the race card"

[muriel_volestrangler]

206. None of us is Obama. None of us are the Obama campaign

And since it is racist, us saying "Derbyshire is a racist POS", with the reasons why that's true, is going to outweigh his "DU is playing the race card".

[Essene]

212. You keep repeating yourself, as do i. I understand your point. Understand mine.

I have no problem with folks calling racism bs, "confronting it" or whatever.

I am saying we MUST NOT push this stuff into the national dialog, we must not dignify it because all that will do is poison the water... derail the message... and unavoidably stir up "obama is playing the race card" retorts.

And i assure you that we can scream and scream and scream but the "obama is playing the race card" accusation by itself will do more damage than anything else

.

Obama is picking his battles.

So should we.

[muriel_volestrangler]

222. I would love to understand your point

but one moment you say you have no problem with people confronting racism, and the next you say we mustn't, apparently because anything anyone posts on DU is taken as an official pronouncement from Obama. I can't understand why you think that. Your points about confronting race baiting, and keeping quiet in the face of it, seem mutually exclusive.

Again I ask you: do you really think that DU counts as 'the national dialog', while National Review Online doesn't?

And I'll ask you: have you posted anywhere on DU recently on any subject other than the economy? If so, did you feel you were harming the Obama campaign by going off message?

[Essene]

228. Hmmm. I appreciate your sincerity. Lemme try again =D

There's a difference between taking bait and confronting racism, in my mind.

You're taking me as saying "stop all discussion of the sleaze and racism on DU." Incorrect.

I explicitly addressed BLOGGERS and viral folks (i.e. folks who spam emails, etc, to spread the word) and had in mind today's bit about how the NR is running an article dragging eugenics nonsense into the fray.

We must not elevate some of this stuff into national media.

Yes... i do not think 1 single pro-Obama blogger oughta even DIGNIFY that article with acknowledgment.

Does that mean we censor ourselves? No, but it does mean we oguhta take a deep breath... relax, and realize that the real danger here is getting dragged into racial tensions and racialized discourse. Likewise, there certainly ARE jackasses on the right who will get on TV and say stuff like "the liberal blogs today are all talking about this story..."

Obama is winning. Obama has momentum.

Now is NOT the time to try to "win" every god damned argument about racism in america. =D

Let the voters speak... stay on message. hehehe

[nini]

215. OK.. we'll all go to the back of bus again where we belong

and keep our mouths shut. :eyes:

Of course it can't be the MAIN issue and is not. But it cannot just be ignored either.

[Essene]

217. Nice job burning that strawman.

Funny, i dont seem to be keeping MY mouth shut about how to react to racism and race baiting.

I guess im a hypocrit!

[progressivebydesign]

192. I respectfully disagree. Silence = complicity. I cannot help but call them out.

It's how I was raised, and I've been that way my whole life.

We ALWAYS acknowledge it. It's who we are.

[Essene]

194. I was raised to pick my fights. Obama picks them on his terms... and right now the fight is to WIN

and Obama's on top by staying on message.


If the left cries "racism" i 100% assure you that it will be twisted into "playing the race card" and held against Obama.

[crankychatter]

201. Senator Biden just sent me an email regarding their sleazy tactics

perhaps I should email back and attach your OP

I'm sure Joe will see the wisdom of your position

[Essene]

211. Laughing off sleazy tactics or stuff int he headlines is fine. Dont miss the point...

[crankychatter]

224. An OP asserting that allegations of racism are bait is OK?

If I do not concur, I'm "missing the point?"

are you responding to every little thing in this posting to keep it up top?

I don't believe I'm the one missing the point.

Hm... Joe Biden vs YOU

get it?

Would you like a graphic illustration?

I refer you to your own post.

[Essene]

230. There's a difference between laughing on sleaze and dignifying "scientific" eugenics articles, ok?

You pick your battles.

The obama campaign has done a very good job to deflect attempts to racialize the election discourse.

Follow his lead. He seems to know what he's doing.

Equating some biden comments which denounce sleaze and mccain garbage is fine. Show me where he got into issues or racism.

[crankychatter]

248. YOU, are a straight up shit starter, AND, this post is bait NT, none deserved

[BlooInBloo]

216. wow - white people telling black people to just "ignore it". i've NEVER heard of that before!

:rofl:

[Essene]

221. or a black person saying to follow the next Black President's lead.. and to relax...

[BlooInBloo]

226. If so, that's even worse. It might be necessary for Obama *himself*...

to take one for the team, a la Jackie Robinson, but it's just fucking pathetic to suggest that EVERYONE has to do that as well.

If we want him to have our backs, we damn well better have his.

[Uzybone]

233. You are wrong

even if Obama isn't responding to it, doesn't mean that we are not offended and shouldn't speak out about what they are doing.

Let them make it blatantly about race. This is not the 50's anymore. It'll totally sink them.

[Essene]

238. Dignifying eugenics articles is only to elevate it into national racial tensions

If the opposition wants to keep stirring up the pot, the Obama side needs to take a deep breath and evaluate.

Sleaze about associations? Laugh it off and move on.

Sleaze about patriotism? Directly trash the idea.

Direct racism at Palin rallies? Raise eyebrows, call the secret service... but stay on message.

A eugenics article in a ring-wing rag? Don't even friggin DIGNIFY it, because it's bait.

If the campaign were to get into that, it would instantly be spun into "playing the race card" and turn the next few weeks into absurdly reactionary stuff with crazy people coming out of the woodwork on all sides. Obama cannot afford to dignify some of this stuff or it will feed racial tensions.

It's fine for us to discuss this stuff and to trash it, calmly. But i'm addressing the bloggers and viral folks who may be tempted to go into miscalculated outrage on this stuff. Just cuz some morons are having a KKK rally in hicksville doesn't mean we oughta freak out about it and give it more attention than it deserves (little to none).

Pick your battles.

I could have made my point better in the OP... but i hope it makes sense now.

[windbreeze]

240. We can all ignore it...yes, we can...as long as we remember one thing...

That the people who are at the McCain/Palin rallies are not you and I...Will we be just as willing to sit here and commiserate with each other about how we should have paid attention, if their actions cause something untoward to happen???

I see what they are allowing, as deliberately and unfairly putting Obama, his wife and children in danger...don't tell me, that they don't understand how one truly racist and slightly unhinged person could be in the crowd one of these days, take what they are permitting to be said, to heart, and act on it...

This is OUR candidate the other team is painting a bullseye on...IF Obama chooses to ignore it, that's his choice, and perhaps the best thing for him to do...but I have a hard time with everyone just allowing them to continue w/o anyone calling them out....wb

[Eyes_wide_ open]

242. It is all the GOP has left and they will be made to own it ,

but not by ignoring it. Obama is doing what he needs to be doing ... and we need to have his back. They are trying to stir mob violence, it has bolstered the courage of the fringe groups and they are starting to poke their faces into the mainstream.

You seem to think that by recognizing it as bait and refusing to engage it is helpful to the campaign, and if you believe that you have to follow your heart. I disagree, and it looks like I have good company. You cannot, nor should you be able to, silence the whole world.

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.”
-- Abraham Lincoln

You see, by not acknowledging the hate and rejecting it publicly you allow their voice to be the only voice heard. If you've been around so long, surely you have seen that if they are not challenged when they spew their garbage they just get louder and spew more garbage. No, we are not going to overcome racism in a month, but we don't have to let them gain any ground either. The campaign would not be the only casualty.

You argue to wait until it hits the MSM. Again I disagree. The MSM is not going to take this and run until either there is enough noise made in the blogsphere OR people start getting hurt. And until it hits the MSM most Americans will not believe its really happening. The GOP is trying to incite violence, and it's only going to get uglier. I'm going to call them on it now, I'd rather no one got hurt.

In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Forkboy]

243. How do you know it's just bait?