John McCain destroyed millions of dollars more of US property than Bill Ayers ever did

[BurtWorm]

And I'm not defending Bill Ayers. I'm only arguing that if it is relevant to judge Barack Obama's character based on what an associate Bill Ayers did 40 years ago, then it is relevant to judge John "Jet Crash" McCain based on what he himself did 45 years ago.

:patriot:

[tigereye]

1. and Phil Gramm is on his list of advisers (still, I think)

the one who pushed through the deregulation of the debt derivatives.

[MadBadger]

2. Yea, I'm not gonna buy on ur argument.

[Occam Bandage]

3. Yes, I can see how framing this race as a choice between

a domestic terrorist and a war-hero pilot who was shot down (and as a result spent 5.5 years as a POW) would be a great idea for Obama. I agree that we should focus national attention on both Bill Ayers and McCain's war record.

What a great idea.

[BurtWorm]

5. Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

Way to read.

:toast:

[Occam Bandage]

7. Pretty much.

Talking about Ayers is a dumb idea. Talking about McCain's war record is a really dumb idea. Inviting America, however obliquely or unintentionally, to compare the two is a colossally dumb idea.

[BurtWorm]

9. Tell that to Rolling Stone, would you?

They've just lost the election for Obama, by your estimation.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain



This is the story of the real John McCain, the one who has been hiding in plain sight. It is the story of a man who has consistently put his own advancement above all else, a man willing to say and do anything to achieve his ultimate ambition: to become commander in chief, ascending to the one position that would finally enable him to outrank his four-star father and grandfather.

In its broad strokes, McCain's life story is oddly similar to that of the current occupant of the White House. John Sidney McCain III and George Walker Bush both represent the third generation of American dynasties. Both were born into positions of privilege against which they rebelled into mediocrity. Both developed an uncanny social intelligence that allowed them to skate by with a minimum of mental exertion. Both struggled with booze and loutish behavior. At each step, with the aid of their fathers' powerful friends, both failed upward. And both shed their skins as Episcopalian members of the Washington elite to build political careers as self-styled, ranch-inhabiting Westerners who pray to Jesus in their wives' evangelical churches.

In one vital respect, however, the comparison is deeply unfair to the current president: George W. Bush was a much better pilot.

[Occam Bandage]

11. Independent magazines can do what they like.

:shrug:

The audience of Rolling Stone undoubtedly appreciates that article, and it will have about as much impact on the race outside of Rolling Stone's audience as, well, anything else Rolling Stone publishes.

[BurtWorm]

13. Independent magazines can do what they like, but not DUers?

What the fuck? I'm flattered that you think I'll have more impact on the race than Rolling Stone, but... What the fuck?!

[Occam Bandage]

15. You can do what you like, too. I never said otherwise.

I did, however, say that any doing so loudly would not be helpful to the Obama campaign. (And no, the Rolling Stone article does not make--as you did--an explicit comparison between Ayers and McCain).

[BurtWorm]

16. And making it a cover story on the Rolling Stone is not doing so loudly?

Again: :wtf:

[Occam Bandage]

19. *sigh*

1. They are an independent magazine. They exist to sell copies, not to help a campaign get elected. They will probably sell copies of this magazine to their left-leaning audience. They are therefore being intelligent in this.

2. You are a poster on DU. You are attempting, theoretically, to help Obama get elected when you come up with slogans and comparisons. There is therefore a slightly different standard. Is anything you say in this little corner of the internet important? No. However, the level to which your comment is impactful is not the same as the level to which your comment is dumb.

3. An unflattering article in the Rolling Stone about McCain's service is not the same as what you have written. You drew a comparison between Bill Ayers and John McCain. That is not a comparison that will resonate favorably to us with anyone who is not firmly in the Obama camp.

[BurtWorm]

20. *Sigh*

Thanks for your thoughts, such as they are.

PS: From the RS article:

In the cockpit, McCain was not a top gun, or even a middling gun. He took little interest in his flight manuals; he had other priorities.

"I enjoyed the off-duty life of a Navy flier more than I enjoyed the actual flying," McCain writes. "I drove a Corvette, dated a lot, spent all my free hours at bars and beach parties." McCain chased a lot of tail. He hit the dog track. Developed a taste for poker and dice. He picked up models when he could, screwed a stripper when he couldn't.

In the air, the hard-partying McCain had a knack for stalling out his planes in midflight. He was still in training, in Texas, when he crashed his first plane into Corpus Christi Bay during a routine practice landing. The plane stalled, and McCain was knocked cold on impact. When he came to, the plane was underwater, and he had to swim to the surface to be rescued. Some might take such a near-death experience as a wake-up call: McCain took some painkillers and a nap, and then went out carousing that night.

Off duty on his Mediterranean tours, McCain frequented the casinos of Monte Carlo, cultivating his taste for what he calls the "addictive" game of craps. McCain's thrill-seeking carried over into his day job. Flying over the south of Spain one day, he decided to deviate from his flight plan. Rocketing along mere feet above the ground, his plane sliced through a power line. His self-described "daredevil clowning" plunged much of the area into a blackout.

That should have been the end of McCain's flying career. "In the Navy, if you crashed one airplane, nine times out of 10 you would lose your wings," says Butler, who, like his former classmate, was shot down and taken prisoner in North Vietnam. Spark "a small international incident" like McCain had? Any other pilot would have "found themselves as the deck officer on a destroyer someplace in a hurry," says Butler.

"But, God, he had family pull. He was directly related to the CEO — you know?"

[endarkenment]

4. Bill Ayers didn't destroy any US property.

[Loge23]

6. What makes McCain a "war-hero"?

Look, I'm sympathetic to his plight of being a POW, but the term war-hero used to be reserved for soldiers that risked or sacrificed their lives in a heroic and/or extraordinary manner to save others. And McCain did that how?
Vietnam was many things to many different people. But there's no way that history or anything else can erase the fact that our aircraft was responsible for the immolation of thousands of Vietnamese people - many of whom were not fighting back.
If Bill Ayers is still a "terrorist", then John McCain is still a war criminal.

[Occam Bandage]

10. Perception and fact are independent entities in campaigns.

McCain refused early release from the Hanoi Hilton, because that would serve as a propaganda coup for the NVA and violate first-in-first-out. He waited--and willingly subjected himself to torture--until all soldiers before him were released. That is, according to your definition, war heroism.

Bringing this election, in whatever extent, back into the dove-hawk fight about Vietnam is not a good idea. It is *especially* not a good idea as a counter-argument to a Republican attempt to link Obama to 1960s domestic terrorism. The best argument is to ignore both of those arguments and focus on actual issues like healthcare and the economy.

[BurtWorm]

12. Your facts are wrong

From Dickinson's Rolling Stone article:



There is no question that McCain suffered hideously in North Vietnam. His ejection over a lake in downtown Hanoi broke his knee and both his arms. During his capture, he was bayoneted in the ankle and the groin, and had his shoulder smashed by a rifle butt. His tormentors dragged McCain's broken body to a cell and seemed content to let him expire from his injuries. For the next two years, there were few days that he was not in agony.

But the subsequent tale of McCain's mistreatment — and the transformation it is alleged to have produced — are both deeply flawed. The Code of Conduct that governed POWs was incredibly rigid; few soldiers lived up to its dictate that they "give no information . . . which might be harmful to my comrades." Under the code, POWs are bound to give only their name, rank, date of birth and service number — and to make no "statements disloyal to my country."

Soon after McCain hit the ground in Hanoi, the code went out the window. "I'll give you military information if you will take me to the hospital," he later admitted pleading with his captors. McCain now insists the offer was a bluff, designed to fool the enemy into giving him medical treatment. In fact, his wounds were attended to only after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a Navy admiral. What has never been disclosed is the manner in which they found out: McCain told them. According to Dramesi, one of the few POWs who remained silent under years of torture, McCain tried to justify his behavior while they were still prisoners. "I had to tell them," he insisted to Dramesi, "or I would have died in bed."

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic — "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" — has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs — or he'd be dead."

...


<Personally, I don't blame him for his actions in Hanoi. I do blame him for his behavior as a service person before and after his captivity, when he exploited his father's position to get all sorts of perqs. And I blame hom for trying to exploit his misfortune and make it look like unvarnished, untouchable heroism.>

[Occam Bandage]

14. That in no way comes into conflict with what I wrote. nt

[BurtWorm]

17. You're saying McCain's captivity makes him a hero.

Apparently it didn't.

[Occam Bandage]

18. I said his refusal of early release was, by the poster's own standard, war heroism.

What you posted did not conflict with that.

[maxsolomon]

8. far more relevant is WHO he dropped bombs on

but that's not an argument the frightened, militarized, nationalist american public is ready to listen to.