Feeling stupid: Just made ass of myself in debate re: Swift Boat

[Jo March]

Well, I just got into a heated debate about the Swift Boats with an actual friend of mine. I am so ashamed. I was pointing my fingers and shushing the guy so I could speak.

I handled it badly. Can you guys give me some good, one-line points to calmly discuss this with him on Tuesday?

I think that I made our side look stupid and Zell-like. Dammit! I never lose my temper but he just kept repeating those lies over and over like they were true. I couldn't stand it.

[NMDemDist2]

1. which lines? n/t

[AverageJoe]

2. Kerry served. Bush swerved.

That's really all there is to it. I'd just keep repeating this little rhyme with a smile on my face. '-)

[sangh0]

3. The first rule for debating freepers

Make them prove it!

When they make a claim, make them prove it. "So and so said what? So why do you believe THEM? Do you believe EVERYTHING you read?"

Make it obvious they can't prove it, and then make them feel stupid for it. You don't have to call them stupid. Just keep asking "Is that all you got? Someone said it's true?"

[Ducks In A Row]

5. My thought exactly. You have nothing to prove,

the navy records and the men on Kerry's boat have already done that.

Make him give you the proof, not opinion. Documentation.

[The Doctor.]

9. Do not touch on insecurities with these people...

I guarantee pushing those buttons (no matter how fun and easy) will turn them off. Then you've done the country a disservice by triggering their "so what do you know? response".

Adversarial positions beget one-another - it's pretty basic psychology.

[sangh0]

14. I always touch on their insecurities

because the important thing to remember is that there's no way you're going to persuade these people, so the ONLY reason to debate them is to show others what they are made of. You make them get insane with anger so others can see how detestable they are.

[The Doctor.]

15. That is very fun indeed...

But isn't creating a more determined adversary Bush's job?

[Jo March]

36. I try not to touch anything on a repub!

:scared:

[Jo March]

40. That is good advice.

I need to remember that.

[AgadorSparticus]

4. you should go to johnkerry.com and look at the arguments they

have lined up against these swiftboat liars. it's all there. good luck.

[Jo March]

27. Just got back from there

They have a lot of good stuff but it's very spread out. I can condense it down, though, so my repub friend can understand it.

[Jo March]

6. Thanks everyone

I just need to not get so angry. It's hard to stay calm when I get really passionate about something.

:)

[KC21304]

17. This is a great site .

http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/

[Jo March]

26. Great! Thanks! I appreciate that.

I'm going to get all of this together and condense it down.

I'm a vet and this is important to me. My being in the military is also one of the reasons that I despise Bush!

[TrustingDog]

33. heh. Just went through something like that...

a client lunch! heheh. In fact Two this past week...
One was: "Saddam was an Al Qaeda terrorist threatening the world.!"
the other was:
big corporations are really made up of nice regular people...!

I got a little pointy fingered and interruptive, too.

thankfully these people are semi-friends as well as clients or I would be a bit poorer right now. :)

[Jo March]

38. It's like the pointy finger comes out and possesses you

I hate to get like that. It looks so hateful but man, he kept saying, "Just because you say it doesn't make it true." Well, right back at ya, idiot!

Luckily we are friends.

The worst thing was that there was a crowd of people around us and I'm at work.

[On the Road]

7. All The Accusers Contradict Their Earlier Statements

as well as the official records (plural). For example, if Kerry wrote that the boat was under fire, who wrote that Thurlow's boat was under fire? There were other people and other vessels there that day, and all the records agree with Kerry.

Plus, bring up that guy Ted Sampley and show what a joke he is. Faked photos of Kerry shooting an MIA, accusing McCain of being a brainwashed tool of the Vietcong, accusing Poppy Bush of being a war criminal.

[AntiCoup2K4]

45. Poppy Bush IS a war criminal

Who the fuck do you think created Al Qaeda?

[The Doctor.]

8. The best way to handle a debate....

The first rule of good debate is to ask Questions...
The questioner controls the discussion. on edit- (as Sang0 touched on)
Ask closed ended questions (the yes/no variety) or questions he must ask YOU the answer to; "Did Elliot ever say something different?"
"The Question is - Was there or was there not gunfire during the incident?"

Here's a good link...

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2004/08/19/politics/campaign/20040820_SWIFT_GRAPH.html

And here's a link to an extensive debate I had with a Bushite...

http://www.limaohio.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=128#128
(This one's FULL of juicy stuff)


There's more, of course - but you get the idea.

Calm always wins. "Those who are used to shouting will strain to hear a whisper"

Good luck.

[RandomKoolzip]

20. Wow. You gave us a link to a thread from another board where you

admit that you're a republican who doesn't trust Kerry. In fact you refer to Kerry as "our enemy." Interesting.

Calm always wins, huh? Does duplicity?

[The Doctor.]

22. LOL!

When earnestly attempting get someone to listen it helps to 'give' them a little... I'm sure you understand that.
Appearing more balanced is critical to acquire attention with some.
If you read the WHOLE thread I'm sure you'll see where I stand solidly against bush*

[The Doctor.]

24. I am curious -

Where in my post do I call Kerry an "enemy"
please don't misquote me.

[RandomKoolzip]

29. My mistake. Your word was "opponents." Not "enem[ies]."

"As for Kerry… I am disgusted that he will not rescind his senate seat for the race. Yes he may be jetting back to DC for only the most crucial and closely divided votes, but he IS getting paid and not working in the senate. Anyone who knows about Massachusetts knows the state legislature, not the Governor, is responsible for assigning someone to a vacant seat. The state legislature is heavily democratic- there is no danger of the Senate gaining a Massachusetts Republican as many argue as the reason Kerry still sits.
I’m also concerned that there are some records he will not release in regard to his military service.
To his credit - The Swift Boat Veterans stories have been fully debunked by reams of testimony and documentation by those who did serve with him most closely.

http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231

It seems quite evident that Kerry was quite courageous in battle… homicidal maybe, but definitely courageous.

I think perhaps (and hope as well) that Kerry is really less liberal at heart than we think. I believe he may have run as a Democrat in Massachusetts because, let’s face it, it’s harder to win there as a Republican. Perhaps I am overreaching, but it would not be beyond a crafty politician to do so. I believe it is unlikely that terrorist will gain such a significant advantage with Kerry in office as most internal security has been autonomous for decades with the exception of budgetary concerns. It would of course be political suicide for ANY sitting President to reduce the budget for intelligence.
My only concern is that he may be beholden to his constituents as you indirectly suggested.

I would definitely appreciate if you had more information about Kerry and his misgivings… I like to know our opponents." (emphasis mine.)

So to which message board are you lying? LimaOhio or democraticunderground? Personally, I don't give a shit as long as you're not actively trying to defeat "our" candidate. That's against DU rules.

Having read your post, though, I must say I'm glad to have an educated, moderate republican on DU to read our "biased liberal ranting." Looks like you don't drink the kool-aid, thank goodness.

[The Doctor.]

41. Neither... of course,

but if you pay close attention you'll see that I am doing what I can to draw him out. I don't believe Kerry has many misgivings - The ones I listed are THE ONLY ones I can find.
Go ahead and read the whole threas thoroughly and without the intent of finding yourself a witch, and you will see my convictions clearly. I made an earnest attempt to draw out another Republican and enlighten him. As it turns out - his ignorance is dumbfounding.

My attempt to enlighten another Republican is in earnest - As a Republican I have already convinced SEVERAL other Republicans (using the same methods) to vote for Kerry. My hope is that they will continue the meme and do the same for others.

I knew full well that a DU'er might take exception to my methods, but I believe in the greater good. Do not admonish your allies when they work in your cause. I trust the administration here understands that many patriots are drawn to their cause. I am one such patriot.

I will judge Kerry when he is in office, fairly.
I cannot believe he will be as destructive as as Bush*.

Until then we are allies- perhaps we will debate in the future, but do not question my convictions untill after we put Kerry in office.

Read the whole thread - I'm sure you'll find other barbs- but I stand by my opposition to Bush* both there and here.

Period.

[The Doctor.]

42. You're a FAST reader!

I am very glad to be here- I've found that the 'biased' liberals tend to have the vast majority of facts on their side. I respect truth - no matter how I may feel about it.

I really did like Clinton in fact, the fact is we all did better during his administration. (No leader is perfect - we must look at the long-term effects of their reign.)

I decided I could not vote for Bush* when, during the 2000 debates he realized most Americans couldn't grasp Gore's well thought-out numbers and called it 'fuzzy math'. He USED Americans ignorance to his advantage. That utterly disgusted me - I knew we couldn't have someone who harnessed ignorance to his advantage running the country.

I was right.

[RandomKoolzip]

46. Well then...

Enjoy DU. Sorry for the stern questioning; it's not like we're under constant attacks from freepers or anything....being a liberal these days means one's bullshit-detecting antennae are always a-twitter. (And usually pinning into the red.)

[Jo March]

28. Thank you so much

I will check all of these.

[Jokinomx]

10. I agree with sangh0 ...

Just keep asking questions....

Really? How did you come to that conclusion? Why would John Kerry's own shipmates say otherwise? Where did he get that information? Did he actually serve WITH John Kerry or was he in Vietnam while John was?

An interesting point of view... that I have found....about this administration is the amount of time they collectively spent in combat.

Zero is the Number of minutes that President Bush, Vice-President Dick Cheney, the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, the assistant Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, the former chairman of the Defence Policy Board, Richard Perle, and the White House Chief of Staff, Karl Rove the main proponents of the war in Iraq served in combat (combined).

[The Doctor.]

12. Don't forget all the combat Nat. Sec. Advisor

Rice has seen to qualify her for the job.

[Memekiller]

11. Not one document...

...contradicts Kerry's version, and every person who served on Kerry's boat with him backs up Kerry.

Plus, go to www.whoslying.org

[ParanoidPat]

13. Give them the old Snope-a-Dope!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/kerry.asp :evilgrin:

[The Straight Story]

16. Try this

Tell him you were not there and he may well be correct, but that you are here now and have seen what has transpired in 4 years of bushy. Let him have his way on the argument because even if you win, you don't really win much with some people. He can believe what he wants all day, and facts don't always change beliefs (people doubt facts all the time anyway, like 9/11 - look at all the varied views of the same exact thing even here on DU).

Have pity on the person, often one can become deluded by their own bias, and this person is lost - love the sinner, hate the sin ya know ;) Approach them as someone with a genuine desire to discuss real things which matter and affect us now and in the future. I don't care if Kerry lied anymore than I do if bushy did back some 30 yrs ago. I lied some back then too I am sure. I would rather have someone today telling the truth who used to lie than someone who used to tell the truth but now lies in office.

It all comes back to issues and directions. What either did in vietnam is no more important now than how well I did in 3rd grade reading. Hammer on the current issues, show him how kerry plans to fix things, explain the logic of the ideas (or maybe slide in something like 'Bush wants to do X, and I think Kerry's way of it, doing Y is better' - but of course you reverse their views and get him to endorse the kerry way and tear apart the bushy way...then say oops, I got that reversed...

At any rate, keep us updated :)

[Jo March]

30. I will

He's a nice guy and usually we have friendly debates. He's ex-Navy and I'm ex-Army so we have some things in common, most importantly our love of the military and veterans.

Sigh. I just wish that I had stayed calm.

[wryter2000]

18. Stick to Thurlow for starters

Don't try to make sweeping arguments about all the lies. Take one lie to debunk and do that. Thurlow's is the easiest. Ask your friend what evidence Thurlow has that Kerry's boat wasn't under attack in the incident for which he got a Bronze Star. His only answer will be Thurlow's story now.

Then, tell the person the counter evidence.

Kerry's citation
Thurlow's citation
Lambert's citation
Lambert's statement
William Rood's memory
Jim Sullivan's memory

Once he/she has been convinced that Thurlow is wrong, point out all the other evidence that these guys are 1) not telling the truth and 2) are part of the Rove machine.

[mr_binklesworth]

19. suggestions:

Just use some of the great points mentioned in the last few "Top 10 Conservative Idiots" from DU. There have been some great points about the Swift Boat controversy there.

Also, I'd bring up the point that Kerry was awarded purple hearts, he didn't go somewhere and steal them.

Good luck, and remember, you're on the right side - scratch that, let's say you're on the correct side.

-MF

[Jo March]

31. LOL! Thanks for the smile. n/t

[rniel]

21. Keep practicing takes a long time.

It will come natural. Debate on the internet, in person, everywhere. If you lose temper your mind will blank out.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

23. Give yourself a break... You meant well and were fighting the good fight.

You might need to do a bit more reading up on the topic so next time you can "rattle" off the facts calmly.

[Jo March]

35. I usually am calm.

Lies about vets just piss me off! Kerry is a hero, dammit.

Grrrr....

[DURHAM D]

25. I repeatedly say in a kind but slightly bored way -

"that's drivel". After a while I calmly say "that's drivel and you know it". You can occasionally throw in a "that's interesting".

Don't become interested in their views - I won't respond to any junk statements so eventually they stop their diatribe and ask my opinion. I think they fear I know something they don't.

If they start to pound points again I just simple say I'm sorry but "you don't know what you don't know".

Good luck.

[Jo March]

32. I just lost my temper

I don't usually. Usually I stick to the facts and ask, "Okay, can you explain how *'s tax cut has helped to create jobs?" or something like that. All calm and facts, you know?

This afternoon, though, I just got mad. I was pissed off at *'s speech and the horrible news out of Russia and the stupid media and then this normally intelligent guy spouting off these lies, obvious lies and I lost it.

Okay. Deep breath and back to the facts.

[DURHAM D]

43. It has never been more obvious that there are certain people

(about 50 percent of the country heavily weighted towards males)that have no interest in facts. Their mantra, if they could articulate same, is "I'm OK, Your not Ok". Such a world view can not be overcome by reason or facts, or even a good friendship. The your not ok half of the equation leads otherwise bright people to irrational responses.

Don't worry about them - you can't do anything about someone so adverse to receiving the correct information that is all around them. Just hope they don't have children.

[Jo March]

34. THANK YOU ALL! BEST FOLKS EVER!!!

You guys have calmed me down, made me smile and have given me a little more ammo all in one thread.

This board rocks and you guys all rock! I am so glad that I found this place or I'd be nuts right about now.

:hug: for you all!

[bobbyboucher]

37. "Why do you have to lie?"

Just ask them that.

[Jo March]

39. Why do you hate war heroes?

But he's a darn Navy vet for crying out loud! Kerry is one of his "brothers" and he believes the worst in him.

Dumbass repubs. What is wrong with them??

[DrWeird]

44. Look them straight in the eye and ask in stern, angry voice...

Why do you hate America?