Just got off the phone with my Republican brother.

[Plaid Adder]

And I have something to say to all the "Kerry MUST go negative!" "No! Kerry MUST NOT go negative!" "You're both wrong! Kerry must put on a silver helmet and sing Wagner or we will lose the swingvoters!" threads. Which is: there is only so much that Kerry can do to cut into Bush's support, because a lot of Bush's support is not about either Bush or Kerry. It's about being a Democrat or a Republican.

My brother is a lifetime Republican. He's a 37-year-old white guy who works on Wall Street and makes six figures, perhaps seven if he's got a good bonus. He has absolutely no use for religion of any kind, having declared himself an atheist at the beginning of his adolescence and pretty much stuck with that. And although he grew up almost entirely in Westchester County, he thinks he's a Texan. Wears cowboy boots, insists on calling his SUV a 'truck,' listens to country music, and so on.

He is also not an idiot. Apart from his having 2 advanced degrees from Ivy league institutions, he's very articulate, is quite capable of constructing and defending a valid argument, and does not spend all his time sitting in front of Fox News with his mouth open. He voted for Bush in 2000 and he's voting for him again in 2004.

The interesting thing about this is that based on my conversation with him, it does not appear to have anything to do with Bush himself. He basically shared my opinion of the quality of Bush's speech, which he described as "OK" with a strong closing and a lot of "nonsense" at the beginning, and agreed with me that the economic portion was weak. He was disturbed by Zell Miller's speech, says the Christian right thing bothers him, disagrees with the party's attitude toward gay marriage and wished Bush would "just stop" as soon as he got going on that, and says that basically Bush is in many ways not his ideal candidate.

But would he ever vote for Kerry? Of course not. Asked why, he spews out the same crappy RW talking points you hear all over the place. When I called him on some of it--as in, "Oh, please don't tell me you're buying the whole 'flip-flop' bullshit"--he eventually gets back to, we need someone strong who "won't take any shit," and for him, that means we need a Republican.

My brother is smart enough to know a talking point when he sees one. He embraces them because he can use them as weapons against people like me in arguments. I don't think it would matter what Kerry did; my brother would always think he was weaker and more of a wuss than the Republican candidate, and that would be true no matter what the media was doing. During what turned into quite a long conversation, he didn't bring up the Swift boat thing once. He doesn't care how many medals Kerry got, one way or the other. He believes that gutting federal programs and giving the money to the rich constitutes "growing the economy," and that invading countries and occupying them makes us safer. But you what? If Kerry got up there to morrow and said, "We will cut taxes to grow the economy, and I will invade Iran immediately upon taking office," my brother STILL wouldn't vote for him. Because he's a Democrat, so he coudln't possibly really mean it.

My point is that for an enormous section of the population, it does not matter what the Kerry campaign does. Being a Republican is an identity thing for my brother; it's tied into his masculinity and his sense of entitlement and the whole fabric of his personality. Voting for a Democrat would really fuck with his idea of who he was; and so he's finding excuses not to do it, even though he knows that the Republican candidate is a disaster. And there's a lot of people out there like him.

Be a fighter, come out swinging, be optimistic, be negative, whatever, I'm not a strategist. But the bottom line is that just under half the people in this country think that crossing the line to vote Democrat would be equivalent to kissing their sense of themselves goodbye--and that's why a lot of them *believe* the bullshit they're sold. And unfortunately there is not that much that one election cycle can do about that.

I still think Bush is going down, because I think that his awfulness has actually prompted some identity shifting for a small section of the population. But we just have to accept the fact that some of our fellow-Americans will never believe that Kerry is going to make America stronger no matter what he says or does. So he may as well just go out there and be himself and have a good time with it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it,

The Plaid Adder

[cheshire]

1. I think most of us know they can't think beyond winning no matter who.

[wildeyed]

2. I know someone like your brother.

republican = masculinity

Also, my friend makes a great deal of money, so probably some greed thrown in there for good measure.

I don't argue politics with this individual. He won't change and I won't waste my energy.

[niceypoo]

102. My Brother is the same way

His confidence in Bush is such that he refuses to debate politics with me any longer. He listens to Limbaugh and I pour over news sites and DU threads every day so his ammo level is always very low. I have found that people who rely on talking points fold immediately when you dig for details. Often they get personal when they cannot back up what they are repeating so they reach for emotional arguements. When all else fails I get the "Gun grabber" arguement from him. To him "Guns" are the biggest issue even though its been a long time since this has been a major issue in a campaign. The fact that he refuses to debate any more (He loses his temper easily in a debate.......something he never did before Bush) shows me he has no confidence in his own positions. Lately he has started spewing racist hatred for muslims also.....something that shocks me given our upbringing (When I was a kid my Dad said "Nigger" once and my Mother physically removed him from the house and locked him out for a couple hours then made him appologise to us). I can see a deterioration from his former self. He hated reagan back in the 80s but found guns in the 90s and "One day woke up conservative". His intellectual level has deteriorated markedly in the time since. He is still smart but all logic is now gone from his positions. Arogance and smugness have replaced it. Guns have thoroughly replaced his testicals in his ego. he too is a life long athiest.

[senseandsensibility]

3. Hey,Plaid!

I have a Republican brother, too. He's about the same age as yours. I think you are exactly right. But the recent changes in the polls don't involve them, and they aren't the object of any strategies that Kerry might employ. It's the oft-mentioned swing voters that Kerry can hope to influence by going negative on *.

[stevedeshazer]

4. Boy howdy

Does that ever soud like MY brother. :)

[annabanana]

5. Perhaps this bright, articulate, well educated atheist should know.......

How well Bush is helping the "end-time" Christians fulfill their dreams. That, besides the bonus of cheap labor and eternal warfare, atomic Armageddon is a real possible outcome. Does he have kids? Do they breathe air and drink water?

[vetwife]

73. Your brother rspectfully is in the minority. Most of the Republicans

are in the Right winged christian movement and some are afraid guns are gonna be taken (that would be the ones who can't afford a bottle of Pepto Bismol but think they are middle class. Then there are the
ultra elite who want those tax cuts and forget the middle class and less fortunate. I don't think your brother falls into any of these but he is not the major voter who is worshipping Bush. He doesn't sound like a Rush or Hannity sort of guy and he is not Bush's base.
We have to fight the base.

[ArkDem]

108. I'll fight 2nd!

[LeftCoast]

6. Republicans have made excellent use of their brand-identity

It's about all they have, but it's very effective...

[girl gone mad]

39. The modern day equivalent..

of the Marlboro Man.

When are they going to realize how unhealthy their habit is, though?

[Julien Sorel]

7. It's political nationalism at work:

"I'm a Republican, so I'm voting for the Republican, and I will figure out how to justify my vote afterwards. But justify it or not, I'm voting for the Republican."

Every side has them. Theirs sure do seem more committed than ours, though. Unless you're a fundy, Bush is pretty much the bottom of the Republican barrel -- not even the proverbial ham sandwich. Yet they will still vote for him, and spout his talking points, while some of the people on our side are still looking at the people Kerry beat with regret, and exult in every Kerry mis-step, real and imagined.

[IdaBriggs]

8. I'm getting a lot of "Bush keeps us safe" --

Which is causing a lot of stutters when I point out 9/11 and all of the failures before, during and after. Someone on another thread said something about "imprinting" and I'm starting to think they may be right. The Republicans have definitely made some lemonade out of their lemons. :(

[The Doctor.]

21. Did you point out that

The 'Administration' blew the cover of an Al-Qaeda double agent and let possibly dozens of terrorists get away?

[IdaBriggs]

34. Don't even get me started ...

I can expound on the idiocy of the statement (up to and including the Plame spy stuff) like you wouldn't believe. I'm working on getting through it.... :)

[The Doctor.]

41. Gotcha - too many hammerheads.

[MissouriTeacher]

9. I have a friend exactly like that.

Well, he's not a Wall Street guy. He's middle class actually (which makes it even more stupid for him to support Bush).

Anyway, no amount of reasoning will prevent him from voting Bush, because he's a Republican and Republicans vote for Bush. That's as far as his reasoning goes.

There are a lot of party loyalists out there. Which is why I don't think you'll ever see a president's ratings get much below 40%.

[NJCher]

72. 2nd time!

Wow, that's the second time since I've been on this board that I've seen anyone call him "the president."


Cher

[Rowdyboy]

10. I don't know your brother, but I know a lot of people very much like him

Good luck arguing with him.

[alcuno]

11. The men seem to think it's a team sport.

It's like rooting for the Packers no matter what. You are a Packer fan, what else can you do? Doesn't matter how bad they are.

Women are the key.

[unblock]

12. but campaigns don't go after people like that.

both parties appeal to their hardcore base primarily for donations, and secondarily to make sure they actually bother to vote. HOW they will vote is taken for granted, actually GETTING them to vote is another matter. but mostly, the hardcore CAN be taken for granted (just so long as you don't APPEAR to take them for granted).

no, campaigns, especially after the conventions, are all about grabbing the votes from the middle and the apathetic, both parties having sewn up their base by convention time.

identities and party loyalties cannot be fought in this short time frame.

the election will be decided by those who don't have much, if any, party loyalty; they also tend to pay little attention to issues. they also have malleable little minds that can be convinced to vote one way or the other for the STUPIDEST of reasons.

sad, but true.

[necso]

13. Basically I am for letting Kerry do his thing.

He is an intelligent, informed man, who knows politics and who also knows exactly what is at stake.

I am a little concerned that he will listen too much to the pundits and not enough to himself.

But he has my complete confidence and in him I rest my hopes.

Lead on, Brother Abraham, lead on!

[spanone]

14. A bizarre breed of folk. What caused this blip in the human genome?

I blame it on disco music.

[merh]

50. It's the country music -

popularity of country music has led to the awful state we are in. Just like the original poster said, his brother thinks he is a cowboy, complete with his cowboy boots and truck.

Why is it the majority of folks that adore country music think they are the true patriots of this country?

[obiwan]

55. Here's what happens when you play a country song backwards:

You get your woman back, your dog back, the trailer back, and you stop drinking.

[sandraj]

59. LOL

[Raster]

74. and it's not raining anymore.

[redstateblues]

63. Because Clear Channel Controls The Majority Of What

Gets played on the radio, and they are hard core righties. There are plenty of artists who feel the way the Dixie Chicks do who don't want to see their careers ended- there is a very repressive atmosphere inside the industry- It's part of the creeping fascism that is pervading our society. As someone who is in the industry it is scary.

[merh]

64. Do you mean, there is actually the fear that making "liberal" statements

you could lose your job? I thought the Dixie Chicks rebounded.

[fdr_hst_fan]

92. I agree-male country music singers

try to portray themselves as these real macho kind of guys-what horseshit! Wearing a cowboy hat and boot doesn't make you a macho man-in some cases, they ACYUALLY look like idiots! I have an older brother who grew up on cowboy movies and cowboy toys-he STILL thinks he's a cowboy! He's ALSO a REPUKE!

[drdigi420]

101. Country music is a symptom, not the cause

ignorance is the cause

country music is a symptom of ignorance

[yardwork]

15. You're making a very good point.

I try to imagine under what circumstances I would ever vote for a Republican for president. I'd like to believe that if a Democratic president were as horrible as shrub, I would have the decency to vote against them, but that doesn't really apply because a Democratic president wouldn't be horrible in the ways that bother me the most - greed, fundamentalist pandering, gay-bashing, environmental degradation, etc.

From what you say, your brother doesn't like many of Bush's attributes but they don't really bother him that much either.

He's going to vote for the Republican for the same reason I will always vote for the Democrat - the entire agenda. Who the president will appoint to the Supreme Court. Their policies on the environment. Their policies on business vs. human rights.

To win, we need to point out how shrub is doing a lousy job at the things conservatives care about. Forget the environment, gay rights, etc. Get them where it hurts.

Point out how expensive this war in Iraq is, how badly the economy is damaged, the impact on Wall Street of shrub's stupid policies.

[Longhorn]

38. Same here!

I have a hard time believing I could EVER vote for a Republican. Even in state and local races, unless the Democratic candidate was just awful, I'd vote for the Democrat to try to rebuild the party here in Texas.

For me, it's not about winning (obviously, since I live in Texas, so I haven't won for a very long time!) I just couldn't associate myself with what the Republican party stands for. I used to say I vote the person, not the party, but it just isn't true. Dang it, I'm a Democrat, not an Independent! :D

[progressivebydesign]

16. They can dance around it all they want.. it's the greed.

Nothing more. It's the idea that Republicans mean more money in your pocket, whether it's true or not (it's not, unless you're in the top 2%). It's greed.. they can wrap it up in any excuse.. they'd vote for a pigeon if it promised a tax cut.

[The Doctor.]

17. Yep...

My whole family is Republican.
My parents earn a good living even having been retired for years now.
They think that if they vote for a Democrat the government will walk into their house, take away their stuff, raid their bank accounts, etc.etc.
My brother and sister have figured it out and either won't vote or will vote for Kerry.
I will keep at it until Republicans take their party back from the despots.

[quaoar]

18. Tell your brother this

Tell him how Bush vowed to avengr the mutilation murders of four contractors in Fallujah.

Tell him how Bush ordered the First Marine Expeditionary Force into Fallujah to teach the terrorist assholes a lesson.

Tell him how the Marines started to retake Fallujah and incurred significant casualties. And that they were committed to the end and ready to die to free Fallujah.

Tell him that Bush then ordered the Marines to withdraw and turn the city over to a hastily formed militia of former Baathists.

Tell him how the city is now run by radical Islamic clerics who behead American collaborators while the Marines sit in fortified camps well outside the city.

Ask him why Bush humiliated the Marine Corps by making them retreat before an enemy they could have dispatched.

Ask him what those Marines died for.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

97. the Marines started to retake Fallujah and Bush stopped them?

I hadn't heard this before and find it hard to believe that any sort of progress was being made.
Either way, Bush seems to want 'eternal war'.

[Spinzonner]

19. Ask him how ...

exhausting our forces in the Iraq meat grinder makes us safer

sending our forces into battle and occupation without enough armor (vehicle and personal) and ammunition shows we have a competent party in charge

ignoring the post battle advice by its own State Department shows intelligence and judgment

spending money on weapon systems that dont work to give welfare to corporations is a cost-effective use of our resources and prudent defense management

[Kimber Scott]

20. The Republicans have it right.

They aren't going after un-decideds, or swing voters. They're going after Republicans. Who knows how many of these undecideds are even going to bother voting. If they haven't gotten an opinion by now, they probably haven't got a clue. So, what does this mean? Kerry needs to go after Democrats and we need to make more Democrats. Pretty simple. This playing to the middle thing is not working. There is no middle anymore.

[Bake]

22. Your brother is voting greedy self-interest. Plain and simple.

The talking points don't matter. He recognizes the religious right bullshit. But he makes 6 ot 7 figures a year. That says it all. He's voting pure and simple self-interest, going for the tax cuts. If you pressed him, he has a disdain for the poor, and wishes they'd just go away. Regardless, HE'S not going to pay for their welfare.

There are only three reasons to vote Repuke, only three:

1. You're among the wealthy, or want to be/think you can be;

2. You're a white racist; or

3. You're a religious wing-nut who is blind to all other issues.

Your brother ruled out number 3, apparently. So that leaves only 1. or 2. Or a combination of the two. From what you've told us about him, I'm guessing it's primarily No. 1.

Bake

[roseBudd]

26. I don't canvas rich people

or even people with good jobs

It is the people whose Bush's policies are hurting the most that gives the democratic party a numerical advantage if we can increase turn out in key demographics.

rosebud

[bagnana]

51. I totally agree.

He is voting his pocketbook, and using the "keep us safer" line as justification. He knows Bush is full of crap but Bush makes him more money and that's all that matters.

[Old and In the Way]

23. I know one thing....if it was Gore who had foisted these criminal

policies on us these past 3.5+ years, I'd have no problem voting Republican this cycle.

[noamnety]

24. make a deal with him

Since your votes will cancel each other's out anyway, go someplace with him on election day, go have a fun day when the two of you just hang out together, don't even vote, just have a blow off day together.

(but secretly vote absentee)

[quaoar]

25. Ask your brother to read this

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040829/ZNYT03/408290456

And then ask him if Bush is such a great military leader.

[xcmt]

27. Sounds like my father.

My father is a multimillionaire in New York City, where he operates his own financial advisory firm. I've interned there a few times during my college years, so I had plenty of opportunity to engage him in a little political chat with the rest of the office.

My father isn't religious, though certain recent experiences with alcohol and cars have made him slightly more spiritual than he's been in the past. He has absolutely no input about social programs, other than it's money that can be spent on closing the borders. Which is ironic, considering he was born in Italy to an extremely poor family. He has no input about public education. He has no opinion on social security.

He has two opinions. 1) Taxes are bad. He'll support any tax cut, regardless of the ramifications or source, because it'll translate to more cash in his personal pocket. He's adamant about this.

2) We have to annihilate all our enemies. And by enemies, he means everyone that stands in our way, so I'm pretty sure he's alright with invading France. He called for the firebombing of Libya on 9/11, before we knew who was responsible. He said we should have dropped a nuke on Baghdad. The Iraqis deserved Abu Ghraib. He derided the New York Times for printing a story about five US soldiers dying from an explosion - "This shit isn't front page news anymore."

And both just happen to fit into his sense of corporate identity, the barbarians at the gate, the financial raiders who blackball their business partners whenever possible to increase the profits. He is, at his very core, a Republican. To admit to agreement with any Democratic idea means to diminish his sense of self, the lapidary executive that takes no crap. He's chided me for being a "pussy" because I believe in environmental regulations.

And whether you're this type, or you're the religious-right, I think being a Republican is far more a lifestyle than a political mindset.

[quaoar]

29. Fine.

"2) We have to annihilate all our enemies."

So ask him about Fallujah (see above post). Ask him why he supports a pussy like Bush who humiliates the Marine Corps.

[xcmt]

30. Well..

I haven't spoken to him in six weeks, so I haven't been able to chat much about the Iraq occupation. I'll be sure to bring up our sensitive approach to Fallujah.

And he doesn't care about humiliating the marine corps. The military is a tool, not a collection of individuals with medals and awards. They are, essentially, bodies that kill things.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

37. It's very easy for people to have positions and attitude like your dad, up

until something happens where it impacts them personally. Your dad, being wealthy, is very unlikely to encounter the situation where his child will be conscripted and go die in these military endeavours that give these Republicans their war hard-on. If such a thing WERE to happen then suddenly attitudes change.

I reprinted a LTTE from the Atlanta paper here from a wealthy Texas lady who was suddenly against shrub. She literally SAID in the letter that she had been happy to take advantage of the tax cuts for the wealthy, but now that her son who was in the Army (no doubt against her advice) was being shipped off to Iraq, time to vote against Bush. It boggles the mind, but sadly, we need her vote too.

[KittyWampus]

28. It's Like Yankees Vs. Redsox, IMO. That Mentality.

and they aren't going to switch.

[pretzel4gore]

31. Maybe the repubs have faith in america....

it's a mental trick, much like a fallen away catholic who attacks the church relentlessly year after year: he 'knows' subconsiously the church is a 'rock' and will survive everything, so when he's old and ill etc he can return, and it'll accept him. i believe the same phenomena is at work in many cases similar to your brother....they believe america is stong, liberal, democratic where the anti hero has a place and rebellion strengthens the whole. They believe that the majority is democratic, and ultimately will prevail. Indeed, they are encouraged in their antisocial political philosophy because, in the end, they reason that the luxury they enjoy (all the perks of neocon selfishness etc) can't and won't damage the basics ...they think the democrats will clean up any mess they leave behind.
Your brother is a creep, like a hoodlum shooting out stoplights...

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

32. Well articulated post, PA. I agree wholeheartedly with what you've

written.

But this process of "identification" with Republicanism is not irreversible. Probably impossible in the SHORT TERM (60 days) to counter in the huge majority of cases, but not in the long term. A lot of planning and creative strategy is required though, I think.

[grasswire]

33. all of which, PA...

...is why some of us supported Wes Clark. He provided a safe crossover for people who are unhappy with Bush but will not vote for Kerry.

[ItsMyParty]

35. I believe that is an accepted fact by us Dems and the Kerry

campaign. No one is bothering to reach out and touch these clowns. Therefore, there still has to be a strategy to get two things done: 1)rally that base and turn it out--and stop taking for granted that they are all so mad and will just naturally do so; 2) go after a few numbnuts who can be swayed by some policical bullshit ad put out either by us or Bush right before voting time. 3) have something on Bush that makes the religious old ladies go into such a tizzy they just can't go out and vote for him and stay home fondling their crosses. Any idiot Dem candidate who tries to go after your brother is a damn fool wasting time, effort and donations.

[arewenotdemo]

36. He may be the proud possessor of the Simpson Gene

located on the Y chromosome.

[gulfcoastliberal]

40. College degrees, a wall-street job, the ability to enunciate, etc

doesn't mean you are smart (see US presidents 40, 41 & 43). If he is into economics and refuses to recognize the idiocy of supply-side, tax cuts, deficit spending, trade imbalance, offshoring, etc and defends Bush* just purely out of politics? I disagree; your brother is an idiot.
Anyone with his kind of education surely should be cognizent that their cognitive schema is dead wrong and modify it.

I went to college too and met some people who while honor students, could barely manage to tie their shoes or take care of themselves. Idiots.

[cornfedyank]

42. usa... usa... usa...that was not a hockey game last night.

some rational folk saw those rants and chants and heard the "us, we'll do what ever the hell we want, screw them" message. some rational people wonder if the 300 million of us really have any thing to gain by making 6 billion thems.

[Eric J in MN]

43. 29% of Americans are Republicans, and 37% are Democrats, and

that leaves 44% of Americans who are neither.

Kerry shouldn't be concerened with enjoying himself for the next 2 months.

He should be managing a campaign which highlights Bush's flip-flops and failures.

Bush failed on the economy, failed to stabilize Afghanistan, failed to stabilize Iraq, failed to prevent North Korea from getting nuclear weapons.

[diamond14]

44. remind him that reTHUGlicans have NEVER WON A WAR !

it's always reTHUGlicans in office when wars are LOST...and that is a FACT !

[girl gone mad]

45. The good news is..

as AMerica becomes more diverse, their numbers are shrinking.

[Toots]

46. I am hoping enough Republicans just get fed up enough to just

Stay Home. I don't want them to change their party or ideals. I just want them to realize in this one instance they promoted the wrong guy with the wrong people around him. I don't ever expect them to vote Democratic or for Kerry. Just sit this one out if they feel in their heart that wrong things are happening. The country is on the wrong track and any logical thinking person would know that. The deficit/debt are both soaring, our closest allies are distancing themselves from us, our country is becoming divided by rancor and partisonship. We are looking behind us for spooks and bad guys instead of in front of us for hope and enlightenment. We are heading in the wrong direction and most in the nation know it. Polls show that to be true. America can do better.

[RhodaGrits]

47. I don't think we can assume they've all drank the kool-aid -

I had a long exchange of emails and then a long telephone conversation with my nephew today. He's mid-30s, stockbroker/financial adviser for big brokerage house, 3 figure income with the Lexus. He started out telling me he was undecided, they both were lying. Gave the example of Kerry not being in Cambodia as an example of his lies. I was able to rebut that one quick. But then after I shot down most of his anti-Kerry stuff he started in on why he was uncertain about bush - very concerned about the deficits, knew his total taxes had gone way up under bush (smart enough to realize the property taxes sky-rocketing were directly related to the fed cuts), concerned about education (has a young son), thinks Iraqis is a "DISASTER", on and on and then concludes with the "but i think we are safer under bush" bullshit. (I think the imprinting like a duckling is right.)

So we went round and round like that. I could feel some ground being gained and i moved in for the kill after he started bitching about unions and entitlements. He considers himself a "self-made man" - and he's been a very hard worker, no question. When he finished describing people that didn't know what a hard days work looked like, freeloaders that coat-tailed etc. I told him he was describing GWB - asked him if he knew about Harkin Oil and the Rangers and that W. hadn't worked a day in his life. He said I was right, he couldn't disagree that he was exactly the sort he despised. The clincher was when I asked him if W.'s policies had worked the last 4 yrs - he no, they had not. He said wistfully "we had good years under Clinton." Then said that he would vote for Kerry and suspected that many other undecideds would too - that Bush was a known negative and Kerry Might be better and why not give him a chance.

<high fives>

[oasis]

48. The draft should scare some chickenhawks into voting opposite from their

tough talk. That kind of information doesn't show up in the polls.

[baldingrockwarlord]

52. Republicans and blind faith and denial

Bush could be standing over an innocent dead body with a smoking gun in his hand, and a video camera could have captured the whole thing and Republicans still wouldn't believe it or wouldn't care. Bush is their guy. There is absolutely no way to get through to these types.

[sue4fun]

84. What I heard on campus

I was over on UH campus and the students were worried about the draft and one said it was the democrats last year that raised it. I think they said Charlie Rangel. Is this true?

College kids really do not want it but the ones I heard think our party raised it first.

Mark my words, you get the draft and it is going to be crazy. Need to stop that fast.

[coalition_unwilling]

106. Students are right--Rangel raised it first

But it was actually a sly tactical maneuver, imo. In other words, if a war is worth fighting, shouldn't children of the middle-class and wealthy also have to fight it in a republic, rather than victims of the "poverty draft" that prevails right now.?

Of course, Rangel's proposal received very little attention in the corporate whore press.

[UTUSN]

49. Whatever This Is About, If Somebody Voted Shrub in 2000

and will continue to "vote" for him----I don't see the "smart" argument.

[Philostopher]

53. Hey, wait a minute.

Adjusting for directional ideology, that sounds like my attitude about being a Democrat. There is not a single thing in this world that Bush* could possibly do that would get my vote (except steal it, of course, but I'm countin' on my punched ballot and the little old ladies in my precinct to take care of it for me). I will never vote for a Republican. There have been a few times I have refused to vote for Democrats who acted like Republicans or were DINOs, but only because they weren't really Democrats.

I agree with you there's a certain percentage of the population on either end of the political spectrum that cannot be swayed. The thought of voting for a Republican is not in my philosophical vocabulary. As noted, I have refused to vote for Dems who didn't 'cut it' ethically, but that's the closest I'll ever get to voting for a Republican unless I suffer from a deep brain-tissue injury in the future and my personality and core values change dramatically.

So I know how it is, and I've learned not to try to sway people for whom the thought of voting for the opposition engenders an almost phobic response, because I'm very much the same way on the left end of the spectrum. Sadly, I know where your brother is. I'm 180 degrees across the ideological spectrum in about the same place.

[girl gone mad]

71. But...

I'm assuming your position is based on logic and results.

Bush's policies have not shown good results. Abortion is still legal, deficits are at record levels, there is a net job loss.

If a Democrat made as many broken promises and failed policies as Bush has, I would probably stay home at the very least.

[harper]

54. I think you're on to something re: Republicanism = masculinity

I have a brother much like yours, although he is certainly not making six figures. As a matter of fact, he is currently making unemployment since he was recently laid off after 22 years on the job.

So, he has no job, no health insurance etc, and he's still voting for the shrub. Because real men vote republican. This whole drive to be more masculine that the next guy is a powerful impulse that defies logic and common sense. It's what drives your stockbroker brother to feel that he has to drive a "truck". Cause real men drive trucks.

I have a friend who's husband was upset when his truck broke down shortly before a vacation. His wife said no problem, we'll take my car. Her husband was actually pouting the whole trip cause, in his words, people would think he was a wuss driving down the highway in a car. Cause real men drive trucks, and evidently vote republican. And yes, my brother and my friend's husband would never ever consider voting for the democratic candidate.

[Toucano]

60. Or republican = masculine deficient.

Trying to make up for some sort of ...shortcoming?

[moggie]

86. Projection

The masculinity angle is interesting. It's often struck me as odd how frequently a RW guy abusing a liberal will play the sexuality card, even when it's not relevant to the topic. For example, see the DU hate mailbag, and note how often words like "faggot" are used. It sounds to me like projection, and I can see why horror at their own sexuality might drive a repressed gay into the arms of a party with a strong anti-gay stance.

[NJCher]

76. yep

there are a whole lot of things under that umbrella. Real men use leaf blowers 'cuz subconsciously it makes them look/feel like they have a giant dick. I've seen men rev up a leaf blower to get rid of one leaf on a driveway. They wouldn't be caught dead with a rake or God forbid, a broom.

I absolutely believe the story about the pouting on the trip.

Hey I guess it's what you can expect from a shallow society that doesn't encourage mature development or psychological exploration for a sense of self.

And who else to lead them? The champions of the emotionally immature: republicans.


Cher

[agincourt]

56. And for every guy like your brother,

there are several who vote for bush because he's a devout christian.
If there is anyway we can prove bush takes his religion as a joke, we have to hammer on it.

[snippy]

57. This is a reflection of the fact that the republican party considers

defining not only the republican party and what it means to be a republican but also the democratic party and what it means to be a democrat to be one of its major responsibilities. The democratic party, on the other hand, avoids attempting to define either the democratic party or the republican party.

[Democat]

69. You're right about that!

It's pathetic!

[molly]

58. Texas = macho men

your brother has the best of both worlds. He can dress like a cowboy and enjoy the benefits and intellect of the east coast.

[Darth_Kitten]

61. Pardon me for saying this, but I think your brother wants the easy way....

out.
He's too comfortable where he is. He sounds very rigid in his views, and is not willing to entertain any opposing opinion or truth that may shake up things.

Rigidness bothers me, it's like unless no circumstances can you ever allow yourself to even search your own soul and admit to your own self you could have been wrong about things.

IMHO, your bro needs to lighten up, Plaid. ;) :evilgrin: :hi:

[gulliver]

62. Nothing is set in stone. I wholeheartedly agree with your insight...

... but you you can't conclude that people won't change. A significant number will if they suffer enough damage or see someone else like them change, etc. If Bush wins, we are going to get four more years of major damage to America. Your brother is a lost cause probably, but a lot of suburban middle class folks will stop playing pretend once they and their families have taken enough pain.

This fight is about winning independent votes, increasing Democratic turnout, and depressing Republican turnout. The ego identification you are talking about can be used to affect those factors.. If Republicans feel embarrassed by identifying with Bush or he doesn't reflect their conservative values, they well stay home. Same for Dems and Kerry.

So here is where I disagree with you and say "Kerry should" try to make it embarrassing to vote for Bush.

[Yavin4]

65. Your Brother Is One of the "F*ck You Boys" That's Destroying

America. Insatiable greed is what's driving globalization and the exploitation of slave labor markets in Third World nation. His complete lack of compassion and empathy for his fellow man will lead to a total collapse of this nation.

[mitchum]

66. No offense to you, but your brother is just a selfish prick...

seems he's a republican because of economics. Wants to hold onto all of his "hard earned money"

[liberal_in_GA]

67. Tell those who think Bush is so "masculine"...

that he was a cheerleader in high school. Not only *a* cheerleader, but the head cheerleader—the one carrying around a bullhorn and leading "Go Team Go" chants. Of course this does nothing to improve the level of political discourse, but if we're losing votes because Democrats are "pussies," I think it's fair game. Put it this way: Bush volunteered to wear tights and lead chants; Kerry volunteered for combat in a dangerous war. ;)

[Nightjock]

103. Drew Carey is like that

That's why I will never watch or pay for anything he is in.

[Czolgosz]

68. Like every third poster . . .

You described my brother perfectly (except mine lives in Ohio). But my sister (who also lives in Ohio) is a feminist (I know we're all feminists, but she wears the label with pride), she has plenty of gay friends (who she would feel like she was betraying if she voted with Shrub), and you couldn't possibly make an argument that would dissuade her from voting for Kerry (in another election, she could go Nader, but not this year).

You know what else is different between my brother and my sister? She votes. He talks a big Republican game, but misses the ballot more often than not. I talk politics with my sister all the time, but I don't get on my brother's back about our differing views because if I don't get him all riled up, he'll forget to vote as likely as not.

Lots of guys who think of the Republican party as the he-man woman haters club talk the talk but they don't walk the walk on election day. Why? Because there is no one there to watch them vote, and if no one is watching, then it just doesn't matter.

[girl gone mad]

70. I respectfully disagree with the premise.

I do agree that there are quite a few people in your brother's demographic (we have a lot of them here in Texas), I don't believe that these people will vote for Republicans no matter what.

Many of these guys voted for Perot in 1992, and a few even voted for Clinton in 1996.

We have a liberal Dem mayor in Dallas, and she actually won by getting more votes in conservative North Dallas than her conservative Dem rival. I worked on her campaign, and talked to many urban cowboy dittohead types who became ardent supporters of Laura Miller.

Perot managed to overcome the little madman meme and win a sizeable number of votes away from Bush by making Bush look weak and ineffectual. I think that is a big part of the reason Jr. works so hard at cultivating his tough guy image. He saw what happened to Poppy.

My experience tells me we can win these guys over. We may not be able to do it in the two months left in this election, but we should at least be able to keep some of them from voting for Bush.

What it will take is death by a thousand cuts, literally. If I were running Kerry's campaign, I would start heavily emphasizing the many things that make Bush look weak:

* My Pet goat and bunker hopping on 9/11.
* The ineffective war in Iraq and Bush's 'miscalculation' admission.
* Iraqi spies in the Pentagon.
* Bush's preferred placement in TANG and then the AWOL.
* "Mission Accomplished" when it wasn't.
* The failed siege on Fallujah.
* Iran and North Korea building up nuclear arsenals.
* Bush looking terrified as a lady protestor crashes his convention.

There are so many more, but my point is that it is essential to cut into Bush's image. We've got to define him as a wimp, a leader who makes us look weak by association. The macho guys will shy away from anything that makes them look less manly.

Edited to add that spending 200 Billion on what has essentially turned out to be a nation building mission in Iraq also angers many of these guys.

[LibertyorDeath]

75. Oh dear god Plaid Adder I had no Idea

Sorry to hear about your Brothers unfortunate political views.

Man that really sucks.

This is the Best post I've read here all month maybe all year

Great insight!

"My point is that for an enormous section of the population, it does not matter what the Kerry campaign does. Being a Republican is an identity thing for my brother; it's tied into his masculinity and his sense of entitlement and the whole fabric of his personality. Voting for a Democrat would really fuck with his idea of who he was; and so he's finding excuses not to do it, even though he knows that the Republican candidate is a disaster. And there's a lot of people out there like him."

Thanks for this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

77. My Republican brother is the only non-churchgoer in the family

He became a Republican through exposure to RW talk radio at work, because it was what "the guys" listened to.

It's definitely a macho thing with him, too.

[zulchzulu]

78. Coming from the only "Democrat" in my family...

... I know exactly what you mean.

The whole idea of being a Republican as some sort of badge that the person is "doing very well", "is financially successful", "it feels kinda macho" is also backed up by being very bereft of facts or ready to launch Hannityisms when asked about Kerry.

I love my family. I also don't even bother getting in discussions with them about politics.

Every time I visit them, I can usually assume the TV has been steadily churning out Fox News at a even, steady clip. All the while, they are ingesting this poison meakly, calmly and with a steady appetite of somewhat ignoring the fact that they are partaking in carefully crafted lies.

I'll pass on the Murdoch souffle platter. It tastes like dog food.

[California Griz]

79. My family is split

I have 5 brothers 3 are Republicans. It didn't surprise me one was voting for Kerry but I was very surprised my oldest brother is voting for Kerry too. He didn't only vote for Bush last election he sent him a huge chunk of money. Throw in my sister and the vote in my family is Kerry 6 Bush 1. One of my brothers is hopeless. We've all made up our minds I doubt anything will change them.

[girl gone mad]

83. Welcome to DU!

You're lucky to be in a unified family.

I usually can't talk to my sister at all about politics, because she gets so angry. I have managed to convince her that Bush is corrupt (and believe me, that's no small feat). I don't think she'd vote for Kerry, but I may talk her into staying home.

[DulceDecorum]

80. For some reason,

rich people (and wannabes) vote Republican.
It just seems to be that way.
They just do, and it passeth all understanding.

[sandnsea]

81. You nailed it

"it's tied into his masculinity and his sense of entitlement and the whole fabric of his personality."

White males who are afraid they'll lose their spot at the top of the heap and are part of a clique that tells them they deserve to be at the top of the heap. That's why they vote Republican, especially for President. It's all ego and bluster and Bush is definitely the leader of ego and bluster. And the leader in taking all you can get and not having to give a shit about how you get it. Fits right in with those who just want to make the big paycheck and not worry about how many people are fucked over for them to get it. I think they get physically nauseated even thinking about the Democratic Party, way too much for people who have put their conscience on the shelf their whole lives. Take it off the shelf when a close friend or family member has an emergency, put it back when they've done the "right thing". The rest of us just don't get it, the world is a dog eat dog place and they're the ones who have the guts to get out there and do the fighting; we wouldn't have a country without them. That's what they think and I don't know how to break through that bullshit.

[dave123williams]

82. I don't think it's too difficult to paint Bush as WEAK.

His bravado belies insecurity, his 'black/white' thinking belies intellectual inflexibility, not moral strength.

I just don't understand how it's possible that the Democrats haven't yet just up and ripped his throat out, conversationally.

[lulu]

87. Yes. Show *s cowardly response to 9/11

The republicans are running on this, eliciting primal responses from their base and others. Bush was a coward on this day. The Daily Brew thinks the same thing:

(snip)
Bush must be attacked for his chicken-shit response to the attacks of September 11.

To win this election, Kerry has to tear a hole in Bush’s machismo, and stories about Bush going AWOL in the national guard 30 years ago aren’t going to do it. The electorate doesn’t care if Bush was a pussy when he was 22. Karl Rove’s smoke and mirrors have effectively convinced them that Bush is now the Buford Pusser of the post cold war world, walking tall, carrying a big stick. Fortunately, the facts show that Bush hasn’t changed. His courage is still limited to wars where other people’s kids are killed. When his own ass is on the line, Bush is still Barney Fife.

I suggest that Kerry, and those of us who support Kerry’s campaign, aggressively remind the public that Bush is a coward, and his response to September 11 proved it. Let’s have a conversation about that fateful day, when Bush sat for seven minutes in a Florida grade school, like a deer caught in the headlights. Let’s talk about the fact that when he left that classroom, he then spent all day flying around the country, from one safe house to the next. As the whole nation watched the towers burn, then collapse, Bush couldn’t even find the courage to step in front of a television camera. Rove was so embarrassed by Bush’s obvious cowardice that he had to put out a cover story. Maybe Bush should be asked to explain the lies put out by the White House to explain his chicken shit behavior; that they had specific information that Air Force One had been targeted.

Let’s then remind everyone that journalists who pointed out these obvious facts at the time were fired. When our country was attacked, Bush ran in circles, scared of his own shadow, other people ran the country, and anyone who pointed out that the King had no clothes lost their job. Bush will deny it, since Bush has built his whole campaign (not to mention his whole foreign policy) around September 11, let’s argue about how Bush behaved on that fateful day, just three years ago. It sure as hell is going to sound more relevant than which December day John Kerry spent in Cambodia 30 years ago.

www.thedailybrew.com

[roseBudd]

89. we can help disseminate the pre 9/11 scandal

Create an issue that brings the media to us using viral and guerilla marketing techniques.

most people have not read the 8/6/2001 PDB. I created a postcard size version.



Please print and distribute the image above. High res version for printing available below. Put them on car windows. Hand them out on street corners. We don't need TV buys to get some attention on this issue. We have to undermine Bush's perceived strength. We all are potential disseminators of printed media. We do not need a newspapers permission or lots of money for TV commercials. We need viral grass roots marketing. We need to create a buzz. If we create a buzz with massive distribution of printed ads we will get media coverage. If these start miraculously appearing and no one knows where they are coming from it will start to get media attention. now someone create a Condi ad and an Ashcroft.

Bush admin. INCOMPETENCE is key to undermining his strength.

high resolution version for printing here:
http://somnamblst.tripod.com /

[dave123williams]

90. Let us not forget, or let them forget...

...that * not only took his 7 minutes with the children in that classroom, he took another 20 minutes for his SCHEDULED PHOTO OPPORTUNITY.

What...a...fucking...pussy.

[moondust]

85. Religious fanatics are like that.

Like any good Wall Streeter, your brother's religion is $$$$$.

[G_j]

88. 2 advanced degrees from Ivy league institutions obviously didn't

instill 'critical thinking' abilities. :shrug:

[Cookie wookie]

91. well described

and makes perfect sense. 100% agreed with not having Kerry descend down the go negative lane. The DNC and all their backseat drivers need to leave Kerry to do his thing, as the guy is amazing, standing his ground without being losing the high moral ground

[bobbieinok]

93. after 2000 at a county democratic party discussion

Many middle-aged participants were upset that their children viewed the democratic party as the 'party of loosers'......ie, on welfare, minorities, senior citizens, etc........ie, what RW radio calls the people who think the govt owes them a living because they are not succesful

so 'looser' = democratic party

and 'manly, macho' = republican

[EstimatedProphet]

94. I don't know whether to laugh or be upset

The fact that someone with an education, who pays attention to what's going on in the world, would vote for someone because they are unsure of their masculinity (which really is what the masculinity argument comes down to) is pathetic and laughable. No offense Adder, but you probably would have a better time waking him up by pointing out that he's really acting like what he would likely call a "pussy".
However, the truly sad thing is that we have a country now where that kind of reasoning is commonplace. I think a large part of the Repug base is made up of testosterone addicts that are voting for Bush because they're afraid that if they vote for Kerry, they'll be seen as "fags" and "sissies". That also likely drives the stupid crap I've heard about lately, about people having their cars or property damaged because they have a Kerry sticker. That kind of thing stems from a sexual identity that quit developing at 13.

[sendero]

95. I'm sure this will sound flippant..

... but I want to point out that MOST SUVs are in fact trucks. Most of them, especially those made in America, are direct descendents of pickup trucks.

For example, the Ford Ranger pickup becomes the Ford Explorer. The F150 truck becomes the Expedition. Same with the Chevy and Dodge lines.

So in fact, it is not incorrect to call most SUVs "trucks", as they are almost all built on truck chassis (chassi ? :))


As to your larger point, nobody thinks there is going to be a lot of crossover Republicans voting for Kerry. The best we can hope for is that they stay home. It really is, for both sides, all about the swing voters.

[FighttheFuture]

96. Being a Reuplican = being the playground Bully's synchophants...

Look at the kids who hang around the bully on the playground. Sniveling little weasels and wanna-be's--sycophants. Lacking the gall of the bully to exercise internalized anger on their own, they do by proxy, via the bully. Getting their licks in on the bully's actions and, conversely, adding strength to the bully. If confronted strongly enough, this strength shows itself as weakness.

The problem with this is, as long as the bully keeps on marching, they do not confront their anger. If they exercised it directly, they would likely have their asses kicked and start modifying their behavior, and eventually start asking "why" they should attack this object.

As they ask this "why", they start realizing they shouldn't. First, because they will get their asses kicked. Then, if not too hardened, because they start realizing they are not angry at that object. Eventually, hopefully, they start directing their anger at the appropriate targets. Usually their dysfunctional parents. If they are like Bush, they find Jesus, the ultimate shield for the bully to hide behind, never to confront their anger.

So, in the end, Fuck you Billy Graham for giving us George Bush! The sin you will never wash away.

And, fuck your brother, who uses his intelligence to shield him from his heart, and prop up a weak ego. This "intelligence" allows him to not fall for obvious tricks, and disturbed by what he sees in the Republican party, yet will follow them off the cliff like a lemming, dragging the rest of us with him.

Is he really that intelligent? Or is suckered by an angle, a meme, he simply does not understand. We all have a exploitable path, for those who know how to take it and us it against us.

[hyphenate]

98. I know people

who are sticking with Bush because they make a lot of money and have their own greedy selfish motives to keep this group in power. They know better, but refuse to let compassion and empathy get in the way of what they feel are their entitlements.

[Jacobin]

99. He's NOT a swing voter. He's NOT the target we need to go for

Who ever said we could grab Bush's base? No one.

We need to go nuts on Smirk. We don't even have to make shit up, because its all out there for anyone to see (but no one does since the media covers for him)

All we have to do is put in stark terms what Smirk has done for the last four years. Like the Daily Show montage last week.

I completely disagree with you on this one.

[texas is the reason]

100. as a white southern male, i know exactly what you are talking about....

i work in fire/ems, and see this all day long. being a republican is like being a christian for these people. it is "who they are". They believe first, then make decisions BASED on this belief. to get one of these people to vote democrat is like getting them to renounce thier religion. but that being said, as far as the votes that ARE in play, we will only get these by going negative. we should have been doing this all along. this election is not about kerry being a great candidate, it is about replacing THE WORST PRESIDENT EVER! George bush is much, much more bad than kerry is good. we have seen 4 years of stunning ineptitude from this dipshit administration- lets start talking about it.

[LynnTheDem]

104. Maybe...

after your brother is wearing a US military uniform same as everyone else drafted, and risking his life and limbs for his Republican, he may realize that PARTY UBER ALLES isn't "identity"; it's just mindless.

[cheezus]

105. hey, his SUV *is* a truck

iirc, they're "light trucks" so they don't have to meet milage standards.

[AspenRose]

107. That's why "girly-men" has gotten as much traction as it has.

That's also why republican men hate, despise, can't STAND Hillary Rodham Clinton. She's a strong woman who could eat their lunch, and they know it.

They don't like strong women, or entities that embrace and uphold strong women.

[ArkDem]

109. My entire family is anarco-syndicalist.

[Plaid Adder]

110. Holy crap, this thread just keeps on going.

I haven't been able to keep up with all of it, but I do want to say:

1) I realize that my brother is not a swing voter. My point is just that if it weren't for the whole masculinity thing, I think he probably would be. So it would be worth trying to figure out how to uncouple manliness and Republican politics, but that's not something that can be done between now and November.

2) My point in posting this was not to get a lot of people to bash my brother, though that seems to be a lot of what's happening. I disagree with him about just about everything, but he is my brother and I do love him. He has many excellent qualities, which is why it frustrates me so much that he has picked up all these nasty ones, mainly in my opinion because he wants other guys to think well of him.

3) I appreciate all the talking point suggestions, but I have already tried almost all of them. They don't work on him any better than they would work on a fundamentalist Christian, for the same reason: supporting the Republican candidate is something dictated by his religion, which as someone pointed out above is capitalism.

4) Part of the reason I started this thread was to remind us that there is more than one kind of Republican out there, and that we have a tendency here at DU to make ourselves feel better by identifying the party exclusively with the kind of hatemongering illiterate zealotry-blinded moron familiar to many of us from the Free Republic forums--or with the hatemongering illiterate zealotry-blinded moron currently in the White House. If we want to stop the tragic disease of Republicanism, we have to understand how it spreads, and we can't do that just by mocking the most pathetic strains of it.

5) If it makes anyone feel better, my brother is registered in New York, so his vote isn't worth a hill of beans anyway.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder